It's funny how you make such a time difference between the Kirchherr and Braun tapes. The quality of what you call the Kirchherr is indeed that bad that it made me wondering how they could improve so much within a year. Dating the tapes earlier than April 1960 would make it a bit more understandable, for then there's more time available. Stu really sounds like he's looking for the right notes to play, so yeah, it could in fact be a very early recording, when Stu had just joined the band.
Oh, by the way Chazz, did you get my picture of the Johnny Gentle Tour through Scotland, with someone else other than a Beatle in the background?

Quoted from Bobber

It's funny how you make such a time difference between the Kirchherr and Braun tapes.

That is based primarily on info presented by John Winn and examined with my own ears. There is difference in ambience and the guitars are louder which is like the result of Paul's ne Rosetti 7 guitar purchased on June 30. While researching the "Savage" era it seemed evident that this fita the timeframe.

Quoted from Bobber

The quality of what you call the Kirchherr [tape]...

The "Astrid Kirchherr tape" was a tape given by Stu to Astrid and, obviously, was at least a second generation compilation copy. Astrid returned the tape to George in 1994.

At some point (probably 1960-61), another second generation compilation tape copy containing more polished tracks was given to The Beatles' German friend, Hans-Walter "Icke" Braun.

Sometime in the 1960s, German musician Frank Dostal obtained probably third generation copies of both the Kirchherr and Braun tapes. He played an unadulterated excerpt of the Braun tape on German TV in 1967. In the 1970s, he had a studio combine both tapes onto a single, fourth generation reel.

At that point, the recordings were processed with EQ and the reverb which is probably what we hear on the recordings today.

Frank Dostal has confirmed to me that it is indeed his compilation which circulates but expressly stated that it was NOT him who circulated it.

There appears to be two copies of the Dostal which are circulating. One copy (commonly found on "Wildcat") is slightly better quality than the other (selections of which are found on "The Braun-Kirchherr Tapes"). Both seem to have slight differences in the intro and outro edits. And the second copy features a complete "Well Darling".

Strangely, four songs found on the Braun tape also circulate from what appears to be a different lower generation lineage then the Dostal tape. This copy is better quality with less reverb.

The original recorder used to make these recordings belonged to Charles Hodgson. In 1994, his brother Reginold found a reel given to Charles by Paul in 1960 when the recorder was returned. This reel features a compilation from both the Kirchherr and Braun tapes as well as additional (and currently unavailable) songs including "When I'm 64", "Ask Me Why" and "Winston's Walk". This was probably a second generation copy taken from the master tapes and not copied from the Kirchherr-Braun tapes. Hodgson returned the tape to Paul in 1994. Perhaps the four songs noted above source back to the Hodgson tape.

Also, according to reports, in 1969, John gave a copy of these recordings to a German friend to have an acetate made. The acetate, containing three songs, never made it back to John. Perhaps the four songs can be traced to this event.

It would seem that the tracks found on "Anthology 1" would be sourced from the Kirchherr and Hodgson tapes however, the "Anthology" versions also feature the reverb found on the bootlegs.

Quoted from Bobber

...is indeed that bad that it made me wondering how they could improve so much within a year. Dating the tapes earlier than April 1960 would make it a bit more understandable, for then there's more time available. Stu really sounds like he's looking for the right notes to play, so yeah, it could in fact be a very early recording, when Stu had just joined the band.

I'm VERY inclined to think it's earlier than April. But it's no earlier than January, when Stu joined

Quoted from Bobber

Oh, by the way Chazz, did you get my picture of the Johnny Gentle Tour through Scotland, with someone else other than a Beatle in the background?

Yep, I sure did but I jsut looked and I'll be darned if I can find it. I thought I archived it but it's not where I thought it was. And I didn't get to examine it closely. Sometimes I stick things in odd places. Hopefully, I'll come across it at sometime. I have contact with Johnny Gentle's son and wanted to ask him about it.

Chazz

This is the picture:

, to be found on Johnny Gentle's website: http://www.johnnygentle.com. It says 'Scotland Tour', but it does not look like any of the Beatles in the background there. I'm not sure if Johnny did another Scotland tour after the one in May 1960.

I so wish I could contribute to this.
Am I right in that crucial question is why did Williams send what everyone else thought was a sh*t band to Hamburg? (for surely the regular gigging is a key component to their improvement)

Quoted from kevin_b

I so wish I could contribute to this.
Am I right in that crucial question is why did Williams send what everyone else thought was a sh*t band to Hamburg? (for surely the regular gigging is a key component to their improvement)

Well, in fact that's the question. And judging from what I thought was their tapes from April/May 1960, it was quite a lousy band. Their first gigs in Hamburg might have been pretty bad too, though. But still Alan Williams they were good enough to go and play in Hamburg.

I haven't read his book in decades, but didn't Mr W have a hand in many pies - strippers, steel bands, rock bands? Probably would have sent his gran if he it could make him a buck?
Did he pass other bands over to send The B's, or were they all he had left?
(I used to know this once)

Derry and the Seniors were the first to go to Hamburg and then Bruno Koschmider asked for another band. Williams asked Rory Storm, but he and his band were busy doing the Butlins summercamp. Gerry and The Pacemakers were asked, but they didn't dare to go I think. So then came the Beatles. It's true that Allan Williams was quite a 'trader', but on the other hand, in this particular case, I think he was well aware of the business that could come out of Hamburg. The Beatles might have been his last choice however.

Just an excerpt from an interview with Roy Young, as found on the Tony Sheridan World Wide Forum...: http://com3.runboard.com/bthetonysheridanforum


TONY COPPLE: In Allan Williams biography, the Beatles first manager makes the following statement: "The Beatles would go to the Top Ten Club...to watch Tony Sheridan, that great singer-guitarist, at work...He was more or less their idol in those days and they admit to hearing a lot from his style and technique." How accurate is Williams statement? Did they learn a lot too, from Tony Sheridan?

ROY YOUNG: Absolutely! I was always bewildered by the fact that they never made a big thing about that because I know John and George -- you'd always see them there in the front watching Tony's every move, you know. They'd copied him. They really did copy a lot of his moves: styling; the way of play(ing); you know, the stand; and especially John stood just like Tony. And yet I've never heard too much of them ever mentioning much of it before they died, you know, which quite amazed me, you know.

TONY COPPLE: Yeah. Let's talk about Tony Sheridan's stage presence specifically. Is it true that when Tony was on stage performing, he had his legs spread apart and held his guitar like a Tommy-Gun as he sang? You know, the Lennon style... because it's -

ROY YOUNG: (Roy interrupts and says with fondness): No! That's the Sheridan style! Yeah! Oh, yeah.

TONY COPPLE: ...it is reported that John Lennon began incorporating the Tommy-Gun stance when he returned to Liverpool from Hamburg, something he didn't do before in previous shows.

ROY YOUNG: Right, right...that's true.

You're doing good work here Bobber. I wish I knew more about this period so I could contribute.
Everything I've ever read (and its not nearly as much as you guys) has had TS merely as a footnote. And people say you can't rewrite history.

Quoted from Kevin

You're doing good work here Bobber. I wish I knew more about this period so I could contribute.
Everything I've ever read (and its not nearly as much as you guys) has had TS merely as a footnote. And people say you can't rewrite history.

Thanks. I feel it's a shame Tony is only a footnote. It's undeniable imo that his influence on the early Beatles was big.

I've seen a few pics of Tony Sheridan playing guitar and standing in a fairly similar way to the famous Lennon stance. But nothing I've seen pictorially is conclusive (for me anyway).

But I do not doubt that he was a huge influence on the early Beatle sound and their musicianship because he really was (and still is) an excellent guitarist.

Agreed. We will never know what and even if The Beatles copied things like that. And even if they did, did they do it on purpose?

I thought this great thread deserved a bump...

Quoted from Bobber

I thought this great thread deserved a bump...

Good call. I'm going to read up more on this period. I always thought TS was an 'also ran'.

Quoted from Bobber

This is the picture:

, to be found on Johnny Gentle's website: http://www.johnnygentle.com. It says 'Scotland Tour', but it does not look like any of the Beatles in the background there. I'm not sure if Johnny did another Scotland tour after the one in May 1960.

that is me in the picture with my head cut off....from a previous life....i remember johnny saying if you die now you can be reborne....