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[Jane]

Bullsh*t. John wrote and sang songs mostly about woe is me stuff. If he ever sang a song about what kind of an a**hole he was, I might side with you a bit.

They were all ass-s!
And if you think that John didn`t put HIS sincerity into his songs, though his songs sound very sincere, than he IS A TRUE ARTIST. According to you without being sincere he wrote such songs about very personal things. How did he manage? He is either a great ARTIST, who is able to feel such things or he did feel that way when he wrote them. Or you are mistaken. No other conclusion can be made.

[tkitna]

What was he so sincere about? How he felt when he kicked herion? How losing his mother screwed him up during his lifetime? How through his perception, women got a raw deal in life (although he contributed to it)? How he questions religion and wants people to follow? How he related to the middle classes woes?

I never dug his opiniated garbage and he depresses the hell out of me. The idiotic guy didnt know how good he had it and he wants to bring everybody else down around him. f*** him and his sincerity.

[Jane]

Certainly, it is better to conceal your feelings and to stay hypocritical? To use politically correct words all the time, to say one thing and to really mean quite another? To smile and to pretend while wishing to tear a person apart? Hard to say which is better. As for me I don`t like hypocritical people, I don`t like when somebody smiles at you and says things which he/she doesn`t mean, or just wants to flatter you or to sweet-talk.
John wasn`t like that. And he suffered from it. It is absolutely possible that he missed his mother. It doesn`t mean that he was tortured all his life, he just remembered her and wrote a song about her. Which means he had something to tell us if his feelings poured into a song. His songs had something personal in them. If you don`t like it, it is ok. But actually you yourself are a very sincere person and by that quality you are closer to John than to any other Beatle.  All the rest were round-about guys, and you are like John, say what you think straightforward. BTW just like Kevin, who is so close to John he can`t even imagine. Hello, guys, you are GREAT! 

[tkitna]

John wasn`t like that.

I think he was. John had a great knack for making people feel bad for him (whether through song or conversation) when he himself screwed up. I think it made him feel a little better about himself. Take 'Woman is The black person Of The World' for instance. John wrote this song that created such feelings among people due to how women were being treated. Well hell. I wonder how Cynthia felt when she walked in on John screwing Yoko in her bed? Hypocritical a bit? I'm not going to get into all the instances, but I think he was a fake. Like I said, he had a way of getting people to follow him and I see your no different.

[Mairi]

Although I agree that John was a hypocrite in many, many, ways (especially the whole "Working Class Hero" thing- annoys the hell out of me as someone who is actually working class) I don't think he was a fake so much as a deeply conflicted and flawed human being. I think he tried to make up for his more a**hole-ish actions by writing these songs of peace and love.

[tkitna]

Although I agree that John was a hypocrite in many, many, ways (especially the whole "Working Class Hero" thing- annoys the hell out of me as someone who is actually working class) I don't think he was a fake so much as a deeply conflicted and flawed human being. I think he tried to make up for his more a**hole-ish actions by writing these songs of peace and love.

I'll go along with this. Thanks Mairi for being a voice of reason as I probably went a little strong as usuaul.

[peterbell1]

I think John was human - sometimes an a**hole, sometimes a decent bloke. Sometimes a loving husband, then off on his lost weekend. A hands-on dad with Sean, an absent father for Julian.
On top of all this though, I think he was always fairly honest. His writing was openly personal, where someone like Paul would be a little more veiled with his lyrics, even if he was writing from a personal viewpoint. Ballad of John and Yoko is a good example of how honest John could be in his songs.

[Jane]

I think John was human - sometimes an a**hole, sometimes a decent bloke. Sometimes a loving husband, then off on his lost weekend. A hands-on dad with Sean, an absent father for Julian.
On top of all this though, I think he was always fairly honest. His writing was openly personal, where someone like Paul would be a little more veiled with his lyrics, even if he was writing from a personal viewpoint. Ballad of John and Yoko is a good example of how honest John could be in his songs.

I agree with you. First of all John was human. And being human he experienced different emotions and moods, he might have tried to hide them from other people but they inevitably manifested themselves in his songs. It is impossible to write a song about something you do not feel. Especially a good song. He just didn`t try to conceal his emerging springing emotions.
Maybe it is hard for some of you (especially British) to understand it and to agree with it since your own culture tells you to keep your feelings to yourself and not to reveal them because according to your culture it is improper. One should remain cold, reserved, aloof with an upper stiff lip and so on (I am a bit joking) Can it be so? That is why you believe John can`t have been frank and think he was pulling your leg.
However, my culture tells me to be open and speak my heart, and not to be ashamed of feelings. We have absolutely wonderful songs-romances about all kinds of human emotions, all of them very profound and deep. I can understand John and I think he was quite sincere when he sang about certain things.   

[nyfan(41)]

 
take it to them, jane !!
 
john lennon had to leave you brits and come to new york because you're all so miserable, awful, cantakerous and cruel . . . . . . . (no offense) 

[tkitna]

Just wondering if the thread will be locked or the troll will be banned.

[An Apple Beatle]

That's quite a pigeon-hole on Britain Jane. It's now the most multi-cultural tolerant society on the planet and what you to refer to is quite a dated stereo-type created by Royalty and the Houses of Parliament. To be polite, to not burden your feelings on others has equal merit to letting your feelings out. Surely there's times and places for when to apply both behaviours? I.e. Workplace, family, friends, strangers etc.

'If you live in a glasshouse, don't throw stones.' I think this saying reflects where you will get a divide on Lennon and 'what he stood for.'

I thought Lennon in America was a great tax dodge personally but whatever you like to think NY41. Miserable, awful, cantankerous and cruel? On what assumption is that based on? Like I said 'If you live in a greenhouse.....heheheh

I never really enjoyed this song much. It's a bit acoustic wishy washy with an un-inspired bassline.

Many great points from everyone.

[nyfan(41)]

Britain. . .  the most multi-cultural tolerant society on the planet

.
ok apple beatle - you see you? you are decrying blanket statements while inserting one
i don't know what that's based on
new york is the melting pot - we are all here my friend
.
(but actually i think the most multicultural country was canada or australia by statistics)

.
and john lennon didnt live in america -  he lived in new york - thats where i got my info - john gave us the high ratings.
the tax thing is something i never thought of though. interesting but i think he loved it here

-- this is just fun - truthfully i'd love to visit uk and have a blast.
======
the reason i'm responding is your comment about the bassline. i think it's a direct nod to 'dont be cruel' by elvis. this is why i like b.o.j.a.y. -i think it's a last moment of john and paul connecting on their childhood friendship

[Jane]

It's now the most multi-cultural tolerant society on the planet and what you to refer to is quite a dated stereo-type created by Royalty and the Houses of Parliament. To be polite, to not burden your feelings on others has equal merit to letting your feelings out.

Thank you, An Apple Beatle. It is interesting to learn what the British think about themselves and the fact that they no longer consider themselves to be reserved and aloof. BTW I never meant that Britain was an intolerant society. It is very tolerant, even extremely tolerant and certainly multicultural. Yet, I wish you would preserve some typically English or British features.
You see, the stereotypes are still quite strong. They do exist here about the British. Maybe the difference could be seen as compared to Russians or to Americans, Americans are closer to us in character.
We had a professor from Bath who spoke about stereotypes, and he admitted that the British were reserved and hypocritical in a good sense of the word. Though the national identity is changing now. All national identities are experiencing certain changes.

[An Apple Beatle]

Heheheh I appreciate your points. Maybe it was London that is the most multi-cultural capitol?....it was a bit of a blankent reaction in fairness. I'm just saying that it perhaps does not represent the majority of the British people that inhabit these islands and have to put up with our leaders abuse of position. Perhaps politically reserved and aloof is what your referring to? I'm interested to learn how one defines a nation really from my perspective. All countries have pride and shame to draw upon that make up their 'characteristics.'

I'm not overly patriotic, I got a little defensive perhaps on the cantankerous etc remarks and I find it interesting to see how 'we' are perceived as a nation. Is this how the English are often portrayed in films maybe? Maybe the views are personal, that's all cool. I'd rather hone in on the positive aspects of nations as all have their faults. My mother was Italian, father English and I was born in Wales so I feel pretty neutral. Music has no boundaries and that's what I subscribe to.

I'm sure JL loved it in New York as some of his interviews reveal and didn't mean to sound so cynical, it was just thrown in response, as I'v heard that remark used like the classic 'Imagine no possessions with millions in the bank' arguments in pubs over the years.
I'm mainly interested in him as a musician not the person, as that's something for himself and close ones to keep, unless they decide to write a book of course. 

Regards bassline NY, I never thought of that but now you come to mention it, they are very similar. It's just the general vibe on this track I don't dig rather than anything in particular.

[Sondra]

I love it. He's SO not taking himself seriously. The whole crucified thing is a JOKE! And I love that it's just him and Paul. Love it when Paul comes in at the end. They always sound great together. The computer guy at my school actually thought it was Yoko! HA!

Anyway, you guys take things way to seriously sometimes. Stop putting everything under such a harsh microscope. Yeah, Lennon wasn't perfect, who of us are?? Like to see any of us put under such scrutiny and come out smelling like roses. Yeah, there are stereotypes, yeah, some are true, some aren't, but what's the harm in laughing about some of it? Doesn't that eventually tear them down? Dunno, grew up in NY and we do it all the time. Maybe the humor just doesn't translate. And oh yeah, Lennon clearly LOVED NYC and America. It's highly documented! The dude was becoming a citizen for God's sake! He felt freer here for some reason. I kinda wish he hadn't though. And NYC and America were way different then. Don't really know what he'd think of it now. Don't even know what I think of it sometimes! But then, the grass is always greener right?

[emmi_luvs_beatles]

Anyway, you guys take things way to seriously sometimes.

This.

[Hombre_de_ningun_lugar]

My favourite part is when John sings "Oh boy when you're dead, you don't take nothing with you but your soul - think!". It's a very religious lyric!

[Kevin]

John Lennon was a human???  Brits are cantankerous?? I'm agreeing with Sondra??
Just when you thought this place had nothing new to offer......

[tkitna]

Kevin, I was hoping for insight, but I suppose your right. I take it to seriously.

[Sondra]

Any insight anyone could offer would only be speculation based on their perspective of things.