DM's Beatles forums
Solo forums => Ringo Starr => Topic started by: Loco Mo on December 25, 2006, 03:08:36 PM
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When Epstein booted Best, he revealed that Ringo had already signed on. Pete felt betrayed by Ringo because they'd been friends and Ringo offered him no clue of the behind-the-back deal that was being made.
Later in 1965, Ringo blasted Best with the statement that "he took little pills to make him ill." Best responded with a lawsuit for libel.
To date, Best states that no Beatles's ever spoken to him.
I recall at one point that Ringo nastily said that "he didn't owe this guy anything or particularly give a crap about him and his misfortune." Ringo implied that the canning of Pete was simply business and he was not to be troubled by it in any sense. Even though Pete ultimately stuck his head inside a gas oven and not for the purpose of checking the turkey, Ringo displayed a profound lack of empathy for the man.
Even so, Ringo is quite lovable and charming. And, too, he was indeed the key to the Beatles immeasurable success.
But really, Ringo, don't you think it's time to send a salvo in Pete's direction? Perhaps, in a conciliatory gesture, you could offer him a turn of drums on your next album. This way, Pete'd get some royalties in the process to help soothe his injured soul and bruised ego. Perhaps you could even tour together and bill it as the Best Starr Show. Maybe Paul could join and it could then be called "Paul and his Stickers" or maybe even "Paul's Beaters."
How's about it, Ringo? Everyone - do you think there's any merit to this idea? I, indeed, the world, appreciates your feedback on this important BEATLES matter. Perhaps it would help soften some the sordid BEATLES history that we prefer be suppressed lest our pristine image of a high-borne BEATLES iconography be smirched, however slightly.
Merry Mas, all!
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I dont think Ringo has anything to apologize for. He wasnt involved in the decision making for the lineup change. Whats he supposed to apologize for,,,,,because Pete was a worse drummer? I dont get it.
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I'm trying to approach this from Pete's point of view.
Should Ringo have tipped Pete off that the boys had asked him to join?
Did Ringo really have to make the remark that "he took little pills to make him ill?"
I think Pete's lost many many nights of sleep over these issues.
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I'm sure he has, but you gotta remember, old Ringo's from the Dingle where apologies are few and far between.
Oh... and he probably doesn't give a monkey's.
I undertsand, Loco Mo, that tongue is firmly in cheek here (well, I hope so anyway) but the question about an apology doesn't even need to be asked kids. Well, as far as I can tell anyway. Unfortunately none of us (myself included) were there at the time, enabling us to put together a well enough informed opinon to answer this little hypothetical.
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I like Pete Best, I really do, but damn. Ringo should not have to apologize because others made the decision to boot an inferior drummer. It happens in bands all the time. Was Ringo expected to be the one to go and tell Pete he was being shelved because the other band members and higher ups found Pete to be inadequate? I dont think so.
As for Ringo saying that Pete was taking little pills or whatever,,,hell, we dont know what was said by either party prior to that remark. I'm sure there was a little bad blood there, but cripes, I didnt apologize to the other three people that interviewed for the position I hold now that they didnt get.
Pete needs to get over it if he hasnt already.
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On August 16th, 1962, during the course of an otherwise routine Thursday morning "business" meeting with Brian Epstein, at Whitechapel, sometime shortly after 10 a.m., Pete Best met his fate. Time froze for him at that moment. He was 20 years old; he'd be 21 in 3 months. In 3 months & 1 month, Love Me Do would reach No. 17 on the UK charts. Another month later, Please Please Me would reach No. 1.
Pete Best has, to this day, remained frozen in time in Whitechapel, sometime shortly after 10 a.m. His body has aged since then but his mind forever lives in the moment of his dismissal. The looming petite figure of Brian Epstein is etched vividly in his brain. It is an indelible image.
Pete never left Whitechapel that fateful morning. It wasn't possible for him to do so. That is where the movie ended for him. That is where the credits roll - over and over into eternity.
We should weep for him. For he is where no man wishes to be in a place where he is yet a Beatle - in that singular moment preceding Brian Epstein's incomprehensible statement: "The boys want you out and Ringo in ...." Yes, time stopped for Pete with that utterance. He now sits in perpetual shock and remains 20 years and 270 days old .. forever!
My friends and fellow Beatle afficionados, please ponder the tragedy of Pete Best, the pathetic sad lad, who remains as does Peter Pan, young always, but utterly without joy or consolation.
I rest my case. Ringo .... ? Paul ..... ? Fans ..... ?
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Pete has benefited from being in the Beatles anyways. His name is now immortal and he has even accepted royalties from several different projects. No, I dont feel sorry for him. Maybe if he practiced more and became a good drummer, he wouldnt have been kicked out.
He will always be remembered as the drummer who wasnt good enough. I rest my case.
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I don't think anyone should feel sorry for Pete Best. He makes a comfortable living to this day because he played drums on a few songs 44 years ago. That's not really that bad of a deal.
Of course Ringo doesn't owe him an apology. But maybe Paul does. Not sure, I don't know exactly how they kicked him out...
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Of course the whole band (except Ringo, he had no decision in the matter and as a professional accepted an opportunity as offered--he was potentially giving up a good steady gig with Rory Storm for an uncertain thing--I've never heard about the "little pills" quote) should have apologized and given him a million in the 1960s. Even though Ringo lifted the band, Pete kept them going through the tough years and deserved a helluva more than he eventually got through the releases he played on.
If Paul were a true "statesman" he would do exactly what you suggest and play some dates with Pete and release a recording. Better yet, why not have had included Pete on the unplugged set (which I find great at times, painful at others, and just downright professional "boring" at others--it sounds like a soundcheck)? It'd have been great to have Paul play with an "amateur" for a change. Hell, Van Morrison made a great record of skiffle with Lonnie Donigan and that other guy whose name I can't recall.
And speaking of Unplugged, Paul's attempts to do Bluegrass or Elvis (Blue Moon of Kentucky) are downright embarrassing.
Paul, if you're willing to give Heather $200 million why not drop a couple off at Pete's.
The treatment Pete Best received is a blot on the Beatles legacy and integrity. The mistake in handing the situation as young men should be amended by the remaining adult. It's pathetic that John and Paul (and George, I think) could admit how they felt bad about Pete, but then never did anything about it.
Play on, Pete, wherever you are.
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Of course the whole band (except Ringo, he had no decision in the matter and as a professional accepted an opportunity as offered--he was potentially giving up a good steady gig with Rory Storm for an uncertain thing--I've never heard about the "little pills" quote) should have apologized and given him a million in the 1960s. Even though Ringo lifted the band, Pete kept them going through the tough years and deserved a helluva more than he eventually got through the releases he played on.
Yeah Pete kept them going through the lean years because it was his mothers place that they practiced in. It was also a convenience that Pete would even show up for the gigs as many of their earlier drummers didnt because they had other things to do. Cripes, if they were so desperate for a drummer, Paul could have done it. Pete was NOT essential to them as history proves. He deserved nothing more than he recieved and probably less than that.
If Paul were a true "statesman" he would do exactly what you suggest and play some dates with Pete and release a recording. Better yet, why not have had included Pete on the unplugged set (which I find great at times, painful at others, and just downright professional "boring" at others--it sounds like a soundcheck)? It'd have been great to have Paul play with an "amateur" for a change. Hell, Van Morrison made a great record of skiffle with Lonnie Donigan and that other guy whose name I can't recall.
My God! Why in the f*** would Paul call up Pete Best at this juncture of his life to play a few dates or even hang out? They havent talked for how many years now? You dont think Pete would be thinking that Paul is just doing it because he feels sorry for him? It doesnt make sense.
And speaking of Unplugged, Paul's attempts to do Bluegrass or Elvis (Blue Moon of Kentucky) are downright embarrassing.
The 'Unplugged' album is good. Also, why would Paul want Pete Best on the drums to play songs that the Beatles did AFTER he was shelved. I'm sure it would have been a great honor for him to mimic drum parts that Ringo came up with. Also Blair Cunningham and Chris Whitten are infinately better drummers than Pete Best could even dream about being.
Paul, if you're willing to give Heather $200 million why not drop a couple off at Pete's.
Is Pete having a hard time putting food on the table or something? He's far from being the charity case that your making him out to be.
The treatment Pete Best received is a blot on the Beatles legacy and integrity. The mistake in handing the situation as young men should be amended by the remaining adult.
Why? They owe him nothing. If he was a better musician he should have had no trouble succeeding elsewhere, but guess what,,,,?
It's pathetic that John and Paul (and George, I think) could admit how they felt bad about Pete, but then never did anything about it.
If they felt that bad, they would have said something. Maybe their friendship with Pete wasnt all that we think it was.
Play on, Pete, wherever you are.
He is. He recently was in Pittsburgh playing to about 150 people.
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TK, you're right on most of this. But I'd say "Good Rocking Tonight" "Blue Moon of Kentucky" and "Be-Bop-a-lula" from Unplugged were in the Beatles' repetroire when Pete was in the group.
What I don't understand is why the Beatles treated Pete like toxic waste--surely they felt guilty about it and didn't do much to reconcile the situation. Interestingly, Neil Aspinall apparently did. See the wikipedia quote:
When the surviving Beatles released their Anthology in 1995, which featured a number of tracks with Best as drummer, Best received a substantial windfall
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TK, you're right on most of this. But I'd say "Good Rocking Tonight" "Blue Moon of Kentucky" and "Be-Bop-a-lula" from Unplugged were in the Beatles' repetroire when Pete was in the group.
But these are all cover tunes. Every band in those times were playing these three songs.
What I don't understand is why the Beatles treated Pete like toxic waste--surely they felt guilty about it and didn't do much to reconcile the situation. Interestingly, Neil Aspinall apparently did. See the wikipedia quote:
Neil was banging Petes mother for gods sake. Of course he felt worse than the others.
The Beatles in the early 1960s also lived in a more innocent time. Nowadays if a band were to the level of playing live and recording (even at the level the Pete Best Beatles were), there would no doubt have been something on paper--probably a four or five way partnership between all the Beatles and management. That means Pete would have had to have been bought out of his part ownership of the group instead of simply "fired."
Innocent in the means of band management and contracts maybe, but they were all on pills, drinkings, and popping numerous women everynight. They were making squat in Germany. They freakin lived on cornflakes. I mean what did they have to offer Pete at that time anyways? They played for nothing other than to get better.
If you've ever been in a band, worked with people day in and out, slogged through crappy gigs with the dream of hitting it big, knowing that whether you're "friends" or not you're still partners of an essentially oral contract to participate in a joint venture (i.e., band), the treatment of Pete is morally reprehensible and probably legally dubious.
I've been in bands clear up to the end of my college days and i'll be the first to tell you,,,oral contracts dont mean sh*t. One little spat among so called friends over something as little as a song or a drink can be the cause of somebody getting canned or quitting. Thats a fact. Theres not a legal issue to be had in this case. I had a friend get canned last week in a band by,,,,,email. Now thats class.
Heck, for all Ringo's supposed drumming prowess, George Martin didn't use him on the first single (they might as well have brought Pete).
Have you heard Petes version of the same song? I rest my case.
Now what would have been really interesting is a Beatles with Paul on drums and singing (ala Levon Helm). But then we would have missed all his great bass playing. And to be honest, Paul's drumming tends to be straight-up rock drumming ala Pete Best.
Paul is a good drummer. 'Flaming Pie', 'McCartney', and even 'Dear Prudence' has great stuff on them. I personally talk with Chris Whitten on another drummer forum a lot, and even he has stated that Paul is more than an adequate drummer, so your straight up rock drumming example falls flat.
I'm still not a fan of Unplugged. Everything sounds tired and rote. There's a couple of unexpected, cool cuts like "Ain't No Sunshine" but it's no better than bar-band level. The female vocalist on "Hi-Heel Sneekers" pretty much blows Paul out of the water. His voice breaks on "We can Work it Out" or "Here There and Everywhere". "Every Night" is nice. "And I love her" sounds bar band--the percussion has that drum-machine precision that ruins the caribbean looseness of Ringo's original. "I Lost My Little Girl" is an embarrassment--the crowd seems less than thrilled even if it was the first song he wrote (something like "Every Little Thing" or "when I'm 64" might have been a better call.
To each his own on their opinion and I admit its not perfect or great everywhere, but I like it enough.
Finally, the dobro-playing is pure d crap. Dammit, I live in Nashville and you couldn't get into a demo studio with that level of playing.
Pauls the jack of all trades, but nobody said he was the master of all. :)
Not to be argumentative, TK, because I respect your insights and opinions. Just offered as friendly disagreement.
Friendly is all i'm looking for. Hope i'm not offending.
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No offense at all. I appreciate your point-by-point discussion.
I guess being from the American South I have a penchant for lost causes like Pete Best.
As for your friend. Fired by email--Ouch! Or should I say: :o
The dobro on the Unplugged is played by one of the sideman (a jack of all trades guy). I'm sure dobro is not his first instrument. Too bad Paul didn't spring for Jerry Douglass or somebody who could really play.
Also the Unplugged mix loses the lead guitars at times.
I think the Clapton Unplugged was much better mixed and miked (and performed). The Nirvana Unplugged was also outstanding. The Stones Unplugged was so-so. I haven't seen the Rod Stewart.
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I understand where your coming from and all, but I dont look at Pete as a lost cause. I feel that he benefitted as much as anybody (except the immediate members) due to the bands success. How many millions did Pete recieve just from the rolayties off of the Anthology alone? Trust me, he isnt struggling.
And just to put Pauls 'Unplugged' to bed, again I agree with you that its not the greatest album ever put out, but it has its moments. I like a bunch of other unplugged stuff better too, but I do remember when it came out and it was a pretty big ordeal at the time just because it was Paul. Does it hit my CD player alot,,,,,,hardly. Am I ashamed to throw it in to give it a listen,,,,hardly. Its all good.
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Perhaps it would help soften some the sordid BEATLES history that we prefer be suppressed lest our pristine image of a high-borne BEATLES iconography be smirched, however slightly.
What pristine image?
I don't want them to be remembered as being perfect, because they weren't, any more than the average person on the street.
And for the record, what exactly does Ringo have to apologise for??
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And for the record, what exactly does Ringo have to apologise for??
I never thought Ringo should apologize to Pete. He should have gotten down on his hands and knees and kissed Pete's boots for Pete's less than stellar (i.e. "Starr-key") drumming.
That's a joke, ya'll. Ringo has this weird loopiness, groove thing that Pete never really had. Pete banged away sorta like a Punk drummer. Ringo was more supple, but still forceful. I can't imagine Pete having the subtlety to play "And I Love Her."
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I never thought Ringo should apologize to Pete. He should have gotten down on his hands and knees and kissed Pete's boots for Pete's less than stellar (i.e. "Starr-key") drumming.
That's a joke, ya'll. Ringo has this weird loopiness, groove thing that Pete never really had. Pete banged away sorta like a Punk drummer. Ringo was more supple, but still forceful. I can't imagine Pete having the subtlety to play "And I Love Her."
Ringo's style of drumming was fairly unique. Pete Best was just an average thumper.
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No
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Interesting discussion, folks! Here's my two cents:
Should Ringo have tipped Pete off that the boys had asked him to join?
If we're going to blame unaffiliated drummers for not ratting the Beatles out, then Johnny Hutchinson of the Big Three deserves his share of the blame. I can't remember which biography I read this in, but at least one documenter says that the Beatles went to Hutchinson first. Hutchinson turned them down, because he was good friends with Pete and he liked the group he was in already. The Beatles supposedly went to Ringo next.
But my personal opinion is that neither Johnny (if this story is true) nor Ringo owed Pete an explanation or a tip. This was an internal matter to the Beatles. It was up to the band to handle their own affairs. I think the real problem is that the Beatles were very young, and simply didn't know how to handle such a ticklish situation. John Lennon said somewhere that he was afraid that any face-to-face confrontation would have ended in blows. This is the level of sophistication we are talking about; young punks from Liverpool. They weren't exactly sensitive New Age men. So they chickened out and made Brian do it.
From what I understand, George was the most keen to replace Pete. Yes, Pete did miss several gigs, but Paul missed a lot more (or was late) because he had to take care of his brother. The real issue was that Pete's style of drumming didn't mesh well with the front line. I know this is a matter of opinion and taste, but in this case, I agree with George Martin. Pete sounds like he has a good dance hall band style-- very loud! But Ringo tailored his drumming for the song. Since that was Georgia's style as well, I can see why George preferred Ringo as a drummer. Also, these boys wanted to get a record made, but on their terms. I can see why they didn't want to have a different sound on their records (for example, if a session man was used) than when they played live. They would feel it was dishonest. I'm not sure how well that would've worked for band relations either, if the others were recording but Pete was only playing their live gigs.
Did Ringo really have to make the remark that "he took little pills to make him ill?"
When I read this quote in the February 1965 Playboy Interview, it was fairly clear to me that Ringo was just joking around. They were quite silly through this whole interview. I'll include that snippet of dialogue, and you can form your own opinions:
PLAYBOY: "Let's start over. Ringo, you're the last Beatle to join the group, aren't you?"
RINGO: "Yes."
JOHN: "A few years probably... sort of off and on, really... for three years or so."
PAUL: "Yeah, but really amateur."
GEORGE: "The local pub, you know. And in each other's uncle's houses."
JOHN: "And at George's brother's wedding. Things like that. Ringo used to fill in sometimes if our drummer was ill. With his periodic illness."
RINGO: "He took little pills to make him ill."
PLAYBOY: "When you joined the others Ringo, they weren't quite as big as they are now, were they?"
RINGO: "They were the biggest thing in Liverpool. In them days that was big enough."
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Lets not forget that Ringo only joined the Beatles because they offered him 25 pounds instead of the 20 pounds that Kingsize Taylor was going to offer him. That being said, Ringo wasnt begging to become a Beatle, he went where there was more money.
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Excellent point, Tkitna. It was a business proposition. Ringo could make BIG BUCKS-- 25 a week! Luxury in those days. He liked the Beatles, but he wasn't shopping around. He had a steady gig with Rory.
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Excellent point, [...]He liked the Beatles, [...]
Better point, harihead ;) ... and apart from the fact that he liked them, they had already got a recording contract in London waiting for them ... they could "kill for that piece of plastic" called by that time "record" ... apart from that they were the most famous band in Liverpool ... 5 more pounds for who knows how long seems to be a too little difference to left a "steady gig".
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Yes, excellent point, Raxo. Ringo was wounded forever when he got to the studio and Martin didn't want him to play. I think opportunity to record was like a gift falling from the sky to him.
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Better point, harihead ;) ...
He didnt like them enough that he was going to turn down the money. If KT offered the extra 5, I guarantee you that Ringo Starr would have never of been a Beatle.
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He didnt like them enough that he was going to turn down the money. If KT offered the extra 5, I guarantee you that Ringo Starr would have never of been a Beatle.
I have to believe you, if you can guarantee it! :)
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You dont have to believe me, but you would be wrong if you didnt. :o
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You dont have to believe me, but you would be wrong if you didnt. :o
I know, I know ... so, I'll do ...
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He didnt like them enough that he was going to turn down the money. If KT offered the extra 5, I guarantee you that Ringo Starr would have never of been a Beatle.
OooOOooOOohhhh..... :o :X You just made my brain go all screwy. *wobbles off into the corner and sits down hard*
I have to say, the drummer is the easiest thing to see changing on the Beatles-- but it sure is hard to envision what the dynamics of the group would be if that were the case. *quickly plays movie Hard Day's Night to restore the past as we know it*
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I can't stop thinking about Jimmy Nicol. I know it was only a couple of weeks or whatever, but the press conferences were just as witty, the concerts just as hysterical. If Ringo (God forbid) had died on that operatting table and Jimmy had stayed, what really would have changed?
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I can't stop thinking about Jimmy Nicol. I know it was only a couple of weeks or whatever, but the press conferences were just as witty, the concerts just as hysterical. If Ringo (God forbid) had died on that operatting table and Jimmy had stayed, what really would have changed?
Do you know what Jimmy could do as well as you know what Ringo could? Because I don't! ... maybe tkitna! ;D
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Do you know what Jimmy could do as well as you know what Ringo could? Because I don't! ... maybe tkitna! ;D
Sorry Rax - I have no idea what that means. English man, English!!!
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Sorry, Kev - Worldish man, Worldish!!!
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I can't stop thinking about Jimmy Nicol. I know it was only a couple of weeks or whatever, but the press conferences were just as witty, the concerts just as hysterical. If Ringo (God forbid) had died on that operatting table and Jimmy had stayed, what really would have changed?
Interesting point. Ringo had the operation on December 2, 1964; America had already been conquered and A Hard Day's Night had already been released to ecstatic reviews. If, heaven forbid, something had happened to Ringo after all this, I agree it wouldn't have had the same impact on the Beatles phenomenon than if he hadn't been part of the steamroller earlier in the year.
I think Ringo brought personality to a wider audience than the Beatles enjoyed previously. You can see him charm the crowd in the press conferences in NYC and on the train to Washington. As Ringo himself said, in America RINGO was perceived as an equal member, as opposed to Europe, where it was always JOHN PAUL GEORGE [size=9]and Ringo[/size]-- his example, not mine! ;D
Where I disagree with you is "the press conferences were just as witty" -- please! In the footage I've seen, Jimmy hardly says a word unless someone asks him a direct question-- quite right, too, as he knows he's only filling in. But there's this one clip, I believe in Amsterdam-- it's that same interview where he says the lads are treating him "marvelous". Earlier, one of the Beatles made some joke (I forget who or what), and Nicols gives this braying laugh and repeatedly slaps the table. John, who is sitting next to him, looks rather startled, as if Jimmy was growing a second head. Really, the Beatles were the ultimate in cheeky cool. Jimmy's honking and slapping was extremely uncool. I felt as shocked as John looked--what the hell is this?!?! :o
So I think if Jimmy had said more, I only would have disliked him more. As it was, he made me cringe. And face it, the dude was homely. I don't believe that's why Martin picked him; I think he was selected because of his familiarity with the Beatles' songs. But Ringo is homely cute, whereas Nicols was just homely. No sex appeal. And since the rest of the Beatles are sex on legs, I think this would have hurt their appeal to the feminine part of their audience. It would have for me. Yes, the songs are great, but the complete package is songs + endearing personality + sex appeal. They had it all.
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^never noticed any of that.Food for thought.
While I think having 4 witty smart lads was a downright bonus, but maybe the world would still have fallen in love with 3+1. I find it hard to believe that PAUL and JOHN and george and drummer would not still have set the world alight.
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Do you know what Jimmy could do as well as you know what Ringo could? Because I don't! ... maybe tkitna! ;D
I dont know how good Jimmy was as a drummer but this is a pretty decent interview.
http://www.paperbackwalrus.com/beatles/articles/jimmy-nichol-temporary-beatle.html
Jimmy Nichol: Temporary Beatle
by David Haber, Beatles Webmaster
In June 1964, the Beatles were to tour Scandanavia, Holland, the Far East and Australia. But on June 3, the day before the tour, Ringo collapsed at an early morning photo session for the Saturday Evening Post at a portrait studio in Barnes, London. He had a 102-degree fever and tonsilitis and was rushed to the hospital.
While having his tonsils out in London, he was temporarily replaced for the Denmark and Holland concert dates by shy 24-year-old session drummer Jimmy Nicol. Beatles producer George Martin suggested Jimmy because he had recently recorded at EMI with Tommy Quickly and he'd also recently become familiar with Beatles numbers while drumming on a recording session for an album called Beatlemania.
At first, George Harrison didn't want Ringo to be replaced and refused to go on the tour without him, but Brian and George Martin convinced him. Paul thought he was okay for the tour, but that the fans would definately know the difference if he recorded with them. And Brian thought it was a good choice because he thought he "looked like a Beatle".
The Beatles break-in a new drummer
Jimmy was interviewed in 1987 about his time with the Beatles, and it offers some very rare and interesting insights into a side of the Beatles very few if any other people ever saw:
Interviewer: Why haven't you written a book about your time with the Beatles?
Nicol: Anyone can write a book about someone who is famous that they met or knew. There is so much trash written about the Beatles and not one shows their good side. I guess I could very well write a book. Lord knows, I could use the money. I guess I really don't know. I think maybe my angle is not strong enough.
I: What did you think of Ringo Starr when you first heard and saw him drumming?
N: I thought he was good, innovative and all. By that time, I was getting pretty good at the traps, and Ringo was making the drums an interesting instrument for all aspiring musicians. But what I liked most about Ringo is that he was probably the first drummer known by name. He is also the first drummer to have girls cry their eyes out to get a touch of. Another thing, musically I mean, that I liked was his style of rim shots on the snare then onto the shell to-turn. In "Ticket To Ride", he used it as an accent of George's chords and in "She Loves You", he used it as a lead-in to the bridge. He was different. I loved how he used to attack the hi-hat instead of just girl private-footing about with them.
I: What were you doing just before that phone call which put you in the limelight as the newest Beatle?
N: I was playing around in a small band [the Shubdubs] and in the studio wherever I was needed. I was actually making money as a drummer, something many were not doing... Brian called me and I went down to his office. I nearly sh*t in me pants when he told me he wanted me to play for the Beatles in place of Ringo, at least until he was well enough to rejoin the group somewhere in the tour. I was truly shocked by it all...
Brian ... asked me if I had practiced with any of the Beatles hits and I said I had. It was 1964 and the Beatles had so many hits but they had a hell of a lot of good album songs as well.
I: You speak of the Beatles with almost a reverent tone. Why?
N: I am not alone, am I? There is just a feeling I get when I hear their songs. Not just because I played with them but that like millions of other fans, it was part of my... life. Me dad listened to Frank Sinatra and I listened to the Beatles. Both have stood the test of time.
I: What happened then?
N: Well, Brian had all of the Beatles--with the exception of Ringo who was already in the hospital getting the swelling down in his throat from his inflamed tonsils--in an outer office. In a passing motion, he waved them in to meet me. I was floored. The Beatles were actually there to meet me! Me mind was blown. I would have played for free for as long as they needed me. I shook all their hands and blurted out tones of admiration that I think made them embarrassed. They were very nice.
When Brian talked of money in front of them, I got very, very nervous. They paid me 2,500 pounds per gig and a 2,500 pounds signing bonus. Now, that floored me. When John spoke up in a protest by saying "Good God, Brian, you'll make the chap crazy!", I thought it was over. But no sooner had he said that when he said, "Give him 10,000!" Everyone laughed and I felt a hell of a lot better. That night I couldn't sleep a wink. I was a f---ing Beatle!
I: When did the real change start for you?
N: When a wardrobe lady came over to me flat and a hairdresser cut me hair in a mop-top. In the mirror, I cut a mean figure as the new Beatle. I was on top of the music world, for sure.
I: How did the Beatles treat you?
N: Fantastic. Even Ringo kidded me when they took me over to introduce me as his replacement. There were a lot of jokes over that scene. John was super nice as well as Paul and George, with George being about as nervous as I of the tour.
I: What about the fan treatment?
N: Like day and night. The day before I was a Beatle, not one girl would even look me over. The day after, when I was suited up and riding in the back of a limo with John Lennon and Paul McCartney, they were dying just to get a touch of me. Strange and scary all at once. It's hard to describe the feeling but I can tell you it can go to your head. I see why so many famous people kill themselves. There is so little sanity to it all.
I: How did the gigs go with you on drums?
N: Good. A lot of drummer fans were disappointed, I'm sure, because they wanted to see Ringo. John would introduce me at some of the concerts and at some he wouldn't. Also, I think I was accepted by most of the fans 'cause I fit in. I wore the suit and hair and tried to play like Ringo in his nonchalant fashion. I also bowed when the rest of them did and that went over big.
I: How long did you play with the Beatles?
N: I started on June 4 of '64 in Copenhagen, Denmark, our first gig of the tour. I played until Ringo joined us in Melbourne, Australia. I was praying he would get well at the same time I was hoping he would not want to come back. I was having a ball, truly.
I: How much money did they pay you for being a Beatle?
N: I was paid unbelievable! So much that I practically lived off of it for a couple of years. I was paid in the neighbourhood of 40,000 pounds all told.
I: Give me some insight into Paul McCartney, John Lennon and George Harrison, and how you saw them.
N: To begin with, Paul was not the clean chap he wanted the world to see. His love of blonde women and his general dislike of the crowds are not told. John, on the other hand, enjoyed the people, but used his sense of humour to ward off any he didn't care for. He also drunk in excess. In Denmark, for example, his head was a balloon! He had drunk so much the night before, he was on stage sweating like a pig. George was not shy at all, as the press had tried to paint him.
He was into sex as well as partying all night with the rest of us. I was not even close to them when it came to mischief and carrying on. I thought I could drink and lay women with the best of them until I met up with these guys! But I did as they did. To sit here and list each and every little thing we did in such a short time, well, I just can't do it... The Beatles living life to the fullest. I just thank God that I was there to live it with them. Needless to say, the 300,000 people screaming at me and tearing me coat off to the skin was a trip in itself.
I: Why do you think the Beatles stopped touring so early in their career?
N: That's easy. Demands fans placed on them were huge. They sickened of the way they were treated, all the groping and such. They stopped because they were musicians, not performers. It became boring, then dangerous. They felt it wasn't worth it all. They could sell their records and make a hell of a lot more money without all the hassle.
I: Did they like you?
N: I think so. But after Ringo returned, they changed. It was like welcoming a close member of the family back. They treated me with nothing but respect as a musician. And I think they thought I was very good. John once told me I was better than Ringo but that I just missed the ship. When I was on the plane back to London, I felt like a bastard child being sent back home from a family that didn't want me. When you have had the best, you can't accept anything else.
I: Did you ever see them after the tour?
N: I had a band and Brian put us on the same bill with the Beatles and the Fourmost one night. Backstage, we talked, but the wind had changed since we last saw each oter. They were pleasant.
I: Why do you think you were forgotten after all this?
N: When the fans forget, they forget forever. After the Beatles thing was over for me, I played around for a few years, then got away from the music scene. I mean, when you've played with the best, the rest is just, well, the rest.
I: Any regrets?
N: None. Oh, after the money ran low, I thought of cashing in in some way to other. But the timing wasn't right. And I didn't want to step on the Beatles' toes. They had been damn good for me and to me.
Upon Jimmy's return, his group the Shubdubs issued the single Husky/Don't Come Back, but it failed to chart. The Shubdubs later disbanded, after which Jimmy moved to South America. He also lived in Australia for a time, finally moving back to London.
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Thanks for the article, Tkitna. This is my favorite quote:
There is so much trash written about the Beatles and not one shows their good side.
I just love that, because I figure this fellow knows. It's very hard for me to read a Beatles biography without throwing the book at some point.
Love Nichol's comments about Ringo's drumming... not that I understand any of it. Cheers. :)
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Here's the answer to Raxo's question.
They treated me with nothing but respect as a musician. And I think they thought I was very good. John once told me I was better than Ringo but that I just missed the ship.
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Great read tkitna. Thanks.
More 'news' on Jimmy: http://dmbeatles.com/forums/b-fifths/m-1080261038/s-45/#num56
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Thanks for the interview, tkitna ...
... and about the answer to my question, I'm not saying that it's not true but I'm begining to think that John was very hypocrital, spicealley with the drummers ;) ... wasn't he the one who said to Pete "See you tomorrow", or something like that, knowing that the next morning Brian was going to fire him? ...
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Yeah, I agree with you about John. He was a player. 8)
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[...] He was a player. 8)
LOL!!! ;D Yeah, always playing with the rythm!!!
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Thanks for the articles, tkitna and Bobber! Poor Jimmy sounds like a guy who won the lottery. Seriously, most of these people do the exact same thing: go wild with spending, then plunge into bankruptcy. I don't think any of the Beatles or their people are responsible for what happened to him; he just made a too-common choice. I do like his integrity in not wanting to cash in, however.
I'm begining to think that John was very hypocrital, spicealley with the drummers ;) ... wasn't he the one who said to Pete "See you tomorrow", or something like that, knowing that the next morning Brian was going to fire him? ...
Oh, heck, anyone who had to maintain a deception would say that. Since none of the Beatles wanted to tell Pete his number was up, they could hardly go acting suspiciously, could they? Pete is not a stupid man. To me, this just reflects the youth of the Beatles at that time and their inexperience in handling a ticklish situation.
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[...]
Oh, heck, anyone who had to maintain a deception would say that. Since none of the Beatles wanted to tell Pete his number was up, they could hardly go acting suspiciously, could they? Pete is not a stupid man. To me, this just reflects the youth of the Beatles at that time and their inexperience in handling a ticklish situation.
I was just answering to this: "John once told me I was better than Ringo but that I just missed the ship." :-/
He sounds to me as if he was trying to say something warm and nothing else ... and that Pete episode was just 2 years before, I don't think they [John] were much more mature (inner feeling ;))
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Ringo apologizing? Why? He deserved to be in the band because he was the best drummer in Liverpool and The Beatles were the best group so it had to happen heheheh.
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Ringo apologizing? Why? He deserved to be in the band because he was the best drummer in Liverpool and The Beatles were the best group so it had to happen heheheh.
First of all, I love Ringo's drumming, OK? :) ... but I'm not so sure that he was the Best in Liverpool ... yeah, we are told that he was but I've heard that there were another amazing drummers too by that time ... I'm not sure if the most famous was the Cass and the Casanovas drummer (maybe it was another popular group, but I can't remember the name right now) but I think they invited Ringo because George liked him and they all alread knew him! :-/
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Yeah, I agree with you about John. He was a player. 8)
(http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9ibyiCaO8VFKCABmwKjzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTA4NDgyNWN0BHNlYwNwcm9m/SIG=12fehon2a/EXP=1170640154/**http%3A//outspoken.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/blair.JPG)
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You cant prove a thing dammit!
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It was important for him to be good, it was important that he fitted and had a strong personality and it was important that he was already a good friend. I doubt any other drummer in Liverpool fitted the bill - no matter how technically good they were, other drummers would have fallen short in one of the other departments.
Watch the "First Visit" DVD and you'll see Ringo had seemlessly fitted in by early 1964.
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Ringo wasn't the one who said, Kick him out. Sorry, Pete.
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Ringo wasn't the one who said, Kick him out. Sorry, Pete.
Yep, the question is not the best, is it ...
Welcome to the forums, Revolution ... hope you'll enjoy them! :)
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Thanx! I Love it here already!!!!!!!!! :)
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Ringo wasn't the one who said, Kick him out. Sorry, Pete.
Good point!
Welcome Rev.
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Thanx.
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Ringo has no need or duty to apologize to Pete. Ringo accepted an invitation, and he wasn't the one who wanted Pete out. End of story. What's so great about Ringo is that he provided highly imaginative and original drumming to the extent that you would actually be able to tell a Beatles song just by listening to the drum track! Ringo was the right one for the guys. I'm sorry to Pete. But Ringo was the man.
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I read that Paul'sdad had him( Pete 0 kicked out cause he wasgetting more attention than Paul! :o
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I agree with Revoloution. They got rid of Pete because little Paullie didnt get all the females' attention- it had nothing to do with his drumming (in my opinion).
Just for the record, Ringo has nothing to appologize for since it wasnt his decision and he didnt go to the beatles and said "i wanna be in your group".
I do feel sorry for Pete (for those days) and it was real nice of him to play for them after they kicked him out and that he didnt have a whole anti beatles parade or something. But you know, I dont think Pete enjoyed it with the beatles. I mean, in Hamburg he would be the quiet one, he wouldnt do crazy things like the rest of them. He had a different personality to the rest of them. But thats all in the past, now he's got what he wanted, right?
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Why should Ringo apologize to pete?
Ringo only joined because he was told as a friend,
he wasn't out to upset anyone.
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George Martin apologizes:
MARTIN APOLOGISES TO REPLACED BEATLES DRUMMER
Legendary producer SIR GEORGE MARTIN has made a public apology to replaced BEATLES drummer PETE BEST. The 66-year-old musician was part of the fab four from 1960 to 1962, before Ringo Starr was drafted into the band to take his place - and the music mogul now insists he feels "guilty" over the dismissal. Martin authorised the change just before the Beatles shot to fame, with Best going on to work as a civil servant for 20 years before establishing his own band years later. Martin says, "I felt guilty. Maybe I was the catalyst that changed his life."
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Wow! Is this new news, Cor?
Sir George Martin is really one of my favorite old guys. It seems as if he's really out to tidy up his life and make it nice and neat before making a dignified exit. He seems to go the extra mile to be fair, and he wants to keep on good speaking terms with his conscience. Bravo!
That said, I don't think it was Sir George so much as Beatle George. I think Pete got a lousy deal-- I'd read somewhere that nowadays you'd have a separation settlement and get a band fixed up for him in advance. I still think Ringo was better for the group. He clicked with them as others have said, considered the other Beatles brothers, and I think they would have self-destructed under the insanity of Beatlemania unless they were four really good friends.
Perhaps I'm doing Pete an injustice. He didn't like to hang with them in Liverpool or Hamburg, not caring to be part of the gang, even though he was perfectly friendly with everyone, particularly John. He might have been able to adapt to being closeted with this "gang of 3" every day of his life for 4 years... but I think it would have been more of a trial for all of them. Interesting.
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George Martin apologizes:
MARTIN APOLOGISES TO REPLACED BEATLES DRUMMER
Legendary producer SIR GEORGE MARTIN has made a public apology to replaced BEATLES drummer PETE BEST. The 66-year-old musician was part of the fab four from 1960 to 1962, before Ringo Starr was drafted into the band to take his place - and the music mogul now insists he feels "guilty" over the dismissal. Martin authorised the change just before the Beatles shot to fame, with Best going on to work as a civil servant for 20 years before establishing his own band years later. Martin says, "I felt guilty. Maybe I was the catalyst that changed his life."
There, Pete got his apology. I wonder if he feels all better now?
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Wow! Is this new news, Cor?
It is.
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Good old Sir George! I think I'll buy him another fine snifter for his brandy, for him to fondle as he reminisces before the fire. :)
There, Pete got his apology. I wonder if he feels all better now?
You know, I do wonder about this. Pete felt closest to John-- that's beyond recall. George apparently was the most active conniver in getting him replaced-- another lost cause. The only one left to really apologize is Paul, but I'm not sure if that would even help. In the early days it was pretty much "John's band". Would Pete even perceive Paul as having such an active role that an apology from him would be meaningful?
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GM's comments as a highly credible and respected (and involved) third party certainly provides a solid vindication in the public eye. Who knows, maybe the Fabs might have been even BETTER with PB, but the world will never know.
I don't thnk a Ringo apology is needed except for the slanderous "pills" comments all those years ago.
Generally, I'd think an apology would be in order more for the historical marginalization of Pete's very real contributions in the early years, not just from playing, but for the administrative end also. Bands change members all the time, but for "freinds" to deliberately choose to ignore and marginalize the contributions (and freindships) is the inexcusable part. Lennon said just as much "we were cowards" in Anthology (or was is "Mythology"?)
Also Both John and George were quoted saying that they were at there best (or at their peak as a stage act) in hamburg?L'pool: that time was with Pete, so it gives credibility to his importance which I'm sure has been often debated in this forum (I'm new in here actually).
Long story short: Ya gotta give credit where it's been long overdue, and GM's comments help to provide validation for anyone and everyone that's ever regarded PB as more than just a footnote. He's part of the cornerstone of the whole story.
Or maybe GM just feels guilty he didn't include My Bonnie or Cry for A Shadow in the "Love" show ? (just joking)
If Bill H or others are around, they may care to share some comments here and there with some of folks that pop in over on the petebest website from time to time. I thnk pc31 and/or bobber used to post there sometimes a few years back also.
Actually, someone posted a great commentary about this "apology" subject on pb.com yestrday. It's quite a good read actually. (don't worry moderators, I'm not re-directing your members. In fact, I like this DM site now that I've visited a few times, so i'll stick around and lern what I can from some of these great threads. Thanks for having me.)
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Actually, someone posted a great commentary about this "apology" subject on pb.com yestrday. It's quite a good read actually. (don't worry moderators, I'm not re-directing your members. In fact, I like this DM site now that I've visited a few times, so i'll stick around and lern what I can from some of these great threads. Thanks for having me.)
Welcome Redux, glad you decided to stick around. And don't worry, you're welcome to post links to other sites here.
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I respect both ringo and pete, it would be nice if they could shake hands and let bygones be bygones.
there are only three people on this planet that can call themselves beatles, paul, ringo and pete.
:)
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Make him an 'All-Starr'.
;)
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that's a great idea.
make pete an allstarr.
he is a great drummer, why not? ;)
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My opinion: I don't think Ringo needs to apologize. Like others have said, it was not his idea to have Pete kicked out.
Guess it just wasn't meant to be for Pete. I always thought, that poor man probably lost many many nights of sleep after they made it big though. I know I would have.
Everything happens for a reason.
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Eventually he didn't come out too bad.
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I respect both ringo and pete, it would be nice if they could shake hands and let bygones be bygones.
Why? As far as I'm aware, Ringo and Pete didn't really know each other that well. I don't think Ringo has any bygones to let be.
The Pete Best thing has always confused me. He's part of Beatles history, sure, but he was a mediocre drummer who didn't fit in. And their fame arrived after he left the group. Do we think that The Beatles sound would have evolved as it did if Pete had been the drummer? I think not a chance in hell. Of the Beatles drummers that I've heard, Pete comes bottom of the list for me. Sorry Pete fans, I'm sure he a very nice bloke but there's Jimmy Nicol, broke, and not cashing in, and Pete Best going out playing songs that he never recorded.