DM's Beatles forums
Solo forums => Paul McCartney => Topic started by: Xose on August 10, 2010, 05:50:18 PM
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Sorry for going back to this topic after so long... ;sorry
This pick up...
(http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/4364/pastilladelazenithencol.jpg) (http://img442.imageshack.us/i/pastilladelazenithencol.jpg/)
...is like this...
(http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/8895/5031957.jpg) (http://img824.imageshack.us/i/5031957.jpg/)
But this pick up...
(http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/5015/sblackstrip.jpg) (http://img97.imageshack.us/i/sblackstrip.jpg/)
...is like this...
(http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/9319/503k1957.jpg) (http://img13.imageshack.us/i/503k1957.jpg/)
...i.e., it's this system:
(http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/5279/pastiilacomoladepaulens.jpg) (http://img299.imageshack.us/i/pastiilacomoladepaulens.jpg/)
So..., could they be the same pickup?? I mean: technically..., could be 'transformed' from one system to another?? What do you think?? ???
Thanks in advance and best wishes!! ;)
Xosé
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(http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/5015/sblackstrip.jpg) (http://img97.imageshack.us/i/sblackstrip.jpg/)(http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/8120/1erbajodepaulsistemapas.jpg) (http://img694.imageshack.us/i/1erbajodepaulsistemapas.jpg/)
Xosé
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I'll ask my local guitar technician.
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What the hell is this 'thing' at the red circle?? ???
(http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/1239/52tele02rosetti02concrc.jpg) (http://img838.imageshack.us/i/52tele02rosetti02concrc.jpg/)
Xosé
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microphone pick up bug?
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Xose, can't it be the same pickup after all. The plug can be hidden behind the pickguard of the Zenith and Paul's hand?
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Xose, can't it be the same pickup after all. The plug can be hidden behind the pickguard of the Zenith and Paul's hand?
No: it can't be the same pick up at Zenith and at Solid 7. A hard modification should be done to be the same pickup...
microphone pick up bug?
Bug?? Sorry, but I don't understand waht does "bug" mean?? ;sorry
The fact is that "thing" puzzles me... ???
Xosé
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Bug, like a lavelier type, single cell microphone? The size of a calculator battery. I may be way off mark. I pitched in on this conversation late.
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What the hell is this 'thing' at the red circle?? ???
([url]http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/1239/52tele02rosetti02concrc.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://img838.imageshack.us/i/52tele02rosetti02concrc.jpg/[/url])
Xosé
It looks like Paul mounted that 6 string pickup off-center so it could be used as a bass guitar pickup. What you circled appears to be some kind of modified mount assembly for the pickup.
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...It looks like Paul mounted that 6 string pickup off-center so it could be used as a bass guitar pickup. What you circled appears to be some kind of modified mount assembly for the pickup.
Thank you very much, Hello Goodbye!! ;)
Yes: the FUMA type pickup was mounted off-center, so the upper pole piece is behind the low string (=in this case, mounted through the 5th string hole bridge, from a lefty point of view. The other two strings are mounted thorugh the 3rd and 2nd hole bridge, again from a lefty point of view...)
The pick up was originally with the two 'arms', intended to be screwed to both sides of the neck. There is no sign of these 'arms' at Macca's pickup, so I understand they were taking apart.
The pick up was secured by means of the bridge (=pickup's back is placed under the bridge) and with the 'black plastci strip' from the original pickguard assembly under the pickup, acting as a wedge to secure the pickup in position.
So, I'm still wondering what is that 'thing' in the red circle... ???
Best!! ;)
Xosé
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Xose, in the center of the circle you drew appears to be an unused peg on the bridge. As I mentioned, the pickup is mounted off-center so you can see that part of the bridge not covered by the pickup.
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Xose, in the center of the circle you drew appears to be an unused peg on the bridge. As I mentioned, the pickup is mounted off-center so you can see that part of the bridge not covered by the pickup.
Unused peg on the bridge?? No, no... See the bridge on my Solid 7 (=same as Macca's):
(http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/8120/1erbajodepaulsistemapas.jpg) (http://img694.imageshack.us/i/1erbajodepaulsistemapas.jpg/)
There is no such a thing...
Or perhaps I don't know what you mean...
As "peg"..., what are you meaning ???
BTW: thank you VERY MUCH for your help!! ;)
Xosé
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Xose, the picture you posted is not very clear but I can see the bridge and the bolt securing it to the trapeze. I can see the plug pretty well too. The original unenlarged picture is actually clearer.
The object you circled appears to be a peg, button or screw in he unused bridge slot. I'm not sure why it's there. Maybe Paul had to employ a different means of securing those strings to the bridge. There also might be a bit of the securing arm still remaining after the pickup was modified visible in the area you circled.
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Xose, the picture you posted is not very clear but I can see the bridge and the bolt securing it to the tapeze. I can see the plug pretty well too. The original unenlarged picture is actually clearer.
The object you circled appears to be a peg, button or screw in he unused bridge slot. I'm not sure why it's there. Maybe Paul had to employ a different means of securing those strings to the bridge. There also might be a bit of the securing arm still remaining after the pickup was modified visible in the area you circled.
Yes, that is the point. You know?? I got the gear (=guitar, pickup, cable, piano strings...) and I'm trying to copy the ssystem he used. With the guitar in my hands ist's clear how he did proceed, but it's that 'thing' at the red circle which puzzles me. It could be a screw, but there is no need of a screw to secure the pickup the wy he did (=I mean: with the guitar in my hands). It could be an ball-end string, but piano strings don't have ball-ends (=and that 'thing' is placed at the 6th. string hole, which is with no string indeed).
So, the only possibility is what you have told: a bit of the securing arm still remaining after the pickup was modified. But..., what is doing there??
Anyway, this is a fascinating mistery...
Best!! ;)
Xosé
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I must say it does look like THE THING is part of the pickup. Considering Paul played it upside down, could it be a hole to put a tremolo (sp?) in?
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I must say it does look like THE THING is part of the pickup...
See some photos of pickups like McCartney's one, with no modifications:
(http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/9319/503k1957.jpg) (http://img13.imageshack.us/i/503k1957.jpg/)
(http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/5279/pastiilacomoladepaulens.jpg) (http://img299.imageshack.us/i/pastiilacomoladepaulens.jpg/)
(http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/8120/1erbajodepaulsistemapas.jpg) (http://img694.imageshack.us/i/1erbajodepaulsistemapas.jpg/)
Where THE THING is?? ???
Xosé
P.S.: I VERY MUCH appreciate what you are doing to help me... ;)
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I think I see what Paul did to secure the pickup to the guitar. He might have formed a loop out of the securing arm and used a screw placed through the loop to secure the pickup to the bridge at the unused hole. He had to do something equally innovative to secure the pickup on the treble side. Unfortunately his hand blocks the view.
The pickup arms were designed for securing the pickup to a fretboard. Paul chose to mount the pickup at the bridge for a sharper tone.
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I think I see what Paul did to secure the pickup to the guitar. He might have formed a loop out of the securing arm and used a screw placed through the loop to secure the pickup to the bridge at the unused hole. He had to do something equally innovative to secure the pickup on the treble side. Unfortunately his hand blocks the view...
As far as I have found, testing with my own guitar+pickup+cable (=I haven't still tested it with the pickguard off. I should do it!!), the pickup is secured by means of:
a) The upper bridge's screw, that 'holds' in place the jack socket...
b) The 'black plastic strip' from the original pickup/pickguard assembly (=white in my guitar, black in his guitar) UNDER the pickup (=over the body of the guitar). This 'plastic strip' acts as a wedge. So, the pickup is 'firmly' secured between the upper bridge's screw and the 'black plastic strip' (=and placed off-center, as you said, to 'capture' only three -or four- strings...)
With this position, the lower pickup 'arm' falls EXACTLY at the outer side of the trapeze (=it's not seen at his photo, but it's seen at mine). So, probably a loop is hidden under McCartney's hand, tying the lower pickup 'arm' and the lower trapeze 'arm'.
(http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/9963/pickuptrapeze.jpg) (http://img517.imageshack.us/i/pickuptrapeze.jpg/)
But, again, THE THING is still puzzling me...
...The pickup arms were designed for securing the pickup to a fretboard. Paul chose to mount the pickup at the bridge for a sharper tone...
That could be the reason. But in a system like that, the jack socket has to be facing the sky, not facing the earth. Otherwise the cable would fall down over and over, would disturb when playing, etc. As he is left-handed, the only choice to place the pickup with the jack socket facing the sky, is by the bridge...
Hello Goodbye: thanks again A LOT for your help!! ;)
Xosé
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Anyway, it's clear that McCartney had to use another system as a wedge between the pickup and the 'black plastic strip', because the room for the pick up alone (=including the 'black plastic strip'), is too wide compared with the pick up height:
(http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/4323/92256061.jpg) (http://img80.imageshack.us/i/92256061.jpg/)
(http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/3379/36735530.jpg) (http://img191.imageshack.us/i/36735530.jpg/)
(http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/4707/40382560.jpg) (http://img84.imageshack.us/i/40382560.jpg/)
So, after all, THE THING could be part of that mistery wedge... ???
Xosé
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^
Xose, that's more reason for me to believe he bent the pickup arm and secured it to the unused hole in the bridge with a screw.
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Xose, that's more reason for me to believe he bent the pickup arm and secured it to the unused hole in the bridge with a screw.
You mean: bent the pickup arm, placing it 'paralel' to the bridge and secure it to the unused -6th string- hole by means of a screw?? Mmmm.... It could be... Yes... It could be...
I don't know how to use a paint software on those photos to try to understand what are you meaning... :(
Xosé
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According to your theory, both distances at the red circles should have to be -aprox.- the same..., shouldn't they?? ???
(http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/4323/92256061.jpg) (http://img843.imageshack.us/i/92256061.jpg/)
(http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/7720/1235149.jpg) (http://img132.imageshack.us/i/1235149.jpg/)
Xosé
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Yes, or he could have drilled a new hole in the arm.
I'm glad I'm right handed and don't play bass guitar, Xose. That's why I'm entirely comfortable with my 1963 Country Gentleman.
(http://i35.tinypic.com/z7n1g.jpg)
(http://i36.tinypic.com/330y6at.jpg)
I have a Gibson Tune-o-matic bridge replacing the Gretsch bar bridge which now resides in the case.
;)
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...I'm glad I'm right handed and don't play bass guitar, Xose. That's why I'm entirely comfortable with my 1963 Country Gentleman...
You have an absolutely great guitar... Congratulations!! ;)
My aim is to find out how was 'built' Macca's first 'bass'... ;)
Xosé
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BTW, you are probably right: 1 cm 5th string hole - 6th string hole spacing, 1'4 cms from the pickup edge to the first arm hole. Those 4 mms would be needed for the arm bending... ;)
Same would do at the trebel side, this time with the unused 1st string hole at the bridge... ;)
Thanks to your help, it seems we are approaching the solution... ;)
Xosé
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You're welcome, Xose. I'm sure you're getting close.
I bought that guitar before it acquired a premium being the model year that George Harrison owned, the 1962 being his first Country Gentleman. With that Fender Vibroverb Reissue amp, I can get it to sound "early Beatles."
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You're welcome, Xose. I'm sure you're getting close...
I hope so. I don't want to dismount my Solid 7 before finding how did Macca proceed...
...I bought that guitar before it acquired a premium being the model year that George Harrison owned, the 1962 being his first Country Gentleman. With that Fender Vibroverb Reissue amp, I can get it to sound "early Beatles."
And I'm sure you get it... ;)
Xosé
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But nobody, I mean nobody, could play the Gretsch Country Gentleman better than Mr. Guitar himself....Chet Atkins
Chet Atkins "I Feel Fine" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsEAR54ZuBw&NR=1#)
Chet Atkins - Hard day's night (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHu-q3DBnwU&feature=related#)
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BTW, you are probably right: 1 cm 5th string hole - 6th string hole spacing, 1'4 cms from the pickup edge to the first arm hole. Those 4 mms would be needed for the arm bending... ;)
Same would do at the trebel side, this time with the unused 1st string hole at the bridge... ;)
Thanks to your help, it seems we are approaching the solution... ;)
Xosé
So, The Thing could be part of the pickup after all.
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...So, The Thing could be part of the pickup after all.
Not excatly: only the screw to fit the pickup arm to the unused bridge slot...
Now, next question is: which service did the black plastic strip then?? ???
Xosé
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What do you think, now, about the 'DeArmond type' pickup on his Rosetti at Top Ten?? How is fitted this pickup?? ???
Xosé
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i11/zyabo/Xose%20Stuff/Rosetti27s20pick20up.jpg)
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i11/zyabo/Xose%20Stuff/Rosetti27s20bracket.jpg)
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i11/zyabo/Xose%20Stuff/Pastilla20Rosetti.jpg)
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i11/zyabo/Xose%20Stuff/Rosetti27s20DeArmond.jpg)
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i11/zyabo/Xose%20Stuff/DeArmond2028II29.jpg)
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i11/zyabo/Xose%20Stuff/DeArmond2028I29.jpg)
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i11/zyabo/Xose%20Stuff/new/Letritas.jpg)(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i11/zyabo/Xose%20Stuff/new/DeArmond_tumbada.jpg)(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i11/zyabo/Xose%20Stuff/new/lighter.jpg)
(http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/3965/dearmondtumbada.jpg) (http://img24.imageshack.us/i/dearmondtumbada.jpg/)
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a326/talanca/DeArmondII.jpg) (http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a326/talanca/DeArmondI.jpg)
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a326/talanca/Letritas.jpg)
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Now, next question is: which service did the black plastic strip then?? ???
Xose, I don't see a black plastic strip in that photograph. I can clearly see the pickup plug, the nut securing the bridge to the trapeze and the screw securing the pickup arm to the unused string slot in the bridge. The black area you see is the unfinished portion of the guitar top which was under the pickguard. The double arrow I drew shows you what I mean.
The short single arrow points to the screw.
(http://i33.tinypic.com/vfuljk.jpg)
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What do you think, now, about the 'DeArmond type' pickup on his Rosetti at Top Ten?? How is fitted this pickup?? ???
That type of pickup also had an arm which could mount the pickup to the fretboard. I think Paul bent the arm and secured it to the bridge using the trapeze nuts.
The picture below is of a vintage DeArmond pickup with a single arm mount....
(http://i38.tinypic.com/2z5u8fq.jpg)
Very clever of Paul!
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Chet Atkins and his single-cutaway Country Gentleman...
CHET ATKINS ; Country Gentleman (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8x7RUBuSFw&feature=related#)
A 1959 Gretsch 6122 with a fixed-arm Bigsby and 1 3/4 inch wide neck at the nut. A one-off Country Gentleman designed by and made for Mr. Atkins.
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^
(Another musical interlude for this thread)
;)
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Hello HG, ;)
Your photo with the arrows is EXCELLENT.... ;)
...Xose, I don't see a black plastic strip in that photograph. I can clearly see the pickup plug, the nut securing the bridge to the trapeze and the screw securing the pickup arm to the unused string slot in the bridge. The black area you see is the unfinished portion of the guitar top which was under the pickguard. The double arrow I drew shows you what I mean...
See the black plastic strip at Macca's photo and another one (=although this time a slightly later model, that is a bit shorter than the old one, hence the 'arms' to be secured to the bridge) I own. My Rosetti also had that plastic strip, in this case is white. All Rosetti/Egmond guitars with that system (=branded Royal PP-2) had that 'supporting device', either white or black (=I'm including some examples here...)
(http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/4697/1strosettipickup.jpg) (http://img64.imageshack.us/i/1strosettipickup.jpg/)
(http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/8200/blackstrip.jpg) (http://img59.imageshack.us/i/blackstrip.jpg/)
(http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/3557/rosettisolid7verde.jpg) (http://img693.imageshack.us/i/rosettisolid7verde.jpg/)
(http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/3926/solid7thefourdreamers.jpg) (http://img130.imageshack.us/i/solid7thefourdreamers.jpg/)
(http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7016/solid7devalreynolds.jpg) (http://img23.imageshack.us/i/solid7devalreynolds.jpg/)
(http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/2516/solid7verdedevalreynold.jpg) (http://img704.imageshack.us/i/solid7verdedevalreynold.jpg/)
This plastic strip was the 'supporting device' where all the pickup/pickguard assembly was glued to, and it had on the neck side an assembly with two metal arms to be screwed to the neck. McCartney's black plastic strip became unglued after hard use in Hamburg (=or perhaps he himself unglued it...)
That type of pickup also had an arm which could mount the pickup to the fretboard. I think Paul bent the arm and secured it to the bridge using the trapeze nuts.
The picture below is of a vintage DeArmond pickup with a single arm mount...
Yes, but probably not A DeArmond, but a DeArmond TYPE, as the one on Macca's guitar is bigger, do not have the same shape (=DeArmond is 'sharper') and it has a bracket to secure it to the trapeze. See:
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a326/talanca/Letritas.jpg)
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a326/talanca/DeArmondcomoladePMII.jpg) (http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a326/talanca/DetalleBesson.jpg)[/quote]
(http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/874/roger.jpg) (http://img840.imageshack.us/i/roger.jpg/)
Xosé
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I'm not familiar with the guitar, Xose. I understand now it's a black plastic strip and not an unfinished guitar surface and that on yours, it's white. But I don't see any additional small black plastic strips in the area Paul mounted the pickup indicated in the circle you drew. The picture is not very clear.
I know it wasn't a DeArmond pickup on Paul's other guitar. I'm familiar with DeArmond pickups as I have two of my own. And I know you wrote 'DeArmond type' pickup in your post. But I just posted a picture of a vintage DeArmond pickup which has a single arm mount as an example.
I've tried the best I could to help you determine how Paul might have mounted these pickups on his guitars. He was very innovative that way. But I'm afraid that the precise way he did so is known only to Paul, or to whoever mounted the pickups for him.
I humbly suggest you take your guitars, pictures and pickups to a reputable luthier for professional assistance in your recreations. Guitar repair and modification is not my specialty. I just play guitar. And I wish I could play my Country Gentleman like Chet Atkins, but I don't and I never will. There are just a very few people who are gifted that way.
Here's Mr. Atkins talking about Gretsch guitars...
Chet Atkins Talks About Gretsch Guitars (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kp8NfpNma40#)
Chet Atkins - Chet & Gretsch guitars (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDo3oiQshE4#)
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Yes, but probably not A DeArmond, but a DeArmond TYPE, as the one on Macca's guitar is bigger, do not have the same shape (=DeArmond is 'sharper') and it has a bracket to secure it to the trapeze.
By the way, Xose, the picture I posted was of a vintage DeArmond Model 1100 Guitar Pickup...
(http://i33.tinypic.com/2uj34e9.jpg)
(http://i38.tinypic.com/2z5u8fq.jpg)
(http://i36.tinypic.com/21dk19f.jpg)
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I'm not familiar with the guitar, Xose. I understand now it's a black plastic strip and not an unfinished guitar surface and that on yours, it's white. But I don't see any additional small black plastic strips in the area Paul mounted the pickup indicated in the circle you drew...
Correct, and I agree. The only black plastic strip is that one (=the 'supporting device' unglued out of the Royal PP-2 assembly): black in Macca's guitar, white in my guitar. And -to complicate matters further- placed off-center in Macca's guitar (=this time center up, not cxenter down as it's the case with the pick up...)
That is why I think the 'black plastic strip' is acting as a wedge but..., how?? ???
...I've tried the best I could to help you determine how Paul might have mounted these pickups on his guitars. He was very innovative that way. But I'm afraid that the precise way he did so is known only to Paul, or to whoever mounted the pickups for him...
Oh yes: and you have been EXTREMELY helpful with me. That is why I'm very acknowledged to you... (=sorry about my English!! :( )
I will try to do my best...
Xosé
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the most interesting read in years
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Any news about the plastic strip?
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Any news about the plastic strip?
???
News?? I'm afraid I don't understand...
The plastic strip was used as a wedge, to secure 'something' under the pickup, for being 'firmly' placed under the trapece/bridge bolt...
Xosé
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I was hoping you had gained more information on the topic.
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No, I haven't. All I have found is written at my posts. Anyway -and thanks to some people, amongst them Hello Goodbye-, the way Macca fitted that pickup seems clear...
Best!! ;)
Xosé
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I will return back to this very interesting thread... :)
Best!! ;)
Xosé
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Looking forward to that. ;)
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Looking forward to that. ;)
me too :)
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Just for comparison...
Which differences do we see at these two photos??:
(http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/9963/pickuptrapeze.jpg) (http://img517.imageshack.us/i/pickuptrapeze.jpg/)[(http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/5015/sblackstrip.jpg) (http://img543.imageshack.us/i/sblackstrip.jpg/)
Let's hope Hello Goodbye can help us!! ;)
Xosé
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Just for comparison...
Which differences do we see at these two photos??:
([url]http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/9963/pickuptrapeze.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://img517.imageshack.us/i/pickuptrapeze.jpg/[/url])[([url]http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/5015/sblackstrip.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://img543.imageshack.us/i/sblackstrip.jpg/[/url])
Let's hope Hello Goodbye can help us!! ;)
Xosé
The picture on the left is your first attempt to fit the pickup to your guitar and the picture on the right is the pickup fit to Paul's guitar.
That was an easy one. ;)
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The picture on the left is your first attempt to fit the pickup to your guitar and the picture on the right is the pickup fit to Paul's guitar.
That was an easy one...
ha2ha
Very good!! ;)
Xosé