DM's Beatles forums
Beatles forums => Songs => Topic started by: blmeanie on March 16, 2018, 11:18:59 AM
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About a year ago we moved closer to my work, I now call my commute "one song" as it is a 3.5 minute commute!
Anyway, it is the luck of the draw usually to what song I hear. Today, the alphabetical playlist I am on gave me "How Do You Sleep".
The first two lines struck me this morning, I have heard this song, oh, probably 100 times.
"So Sgt. Pepper took you by surprise
You better see right through that mother's eyes"
First off, the last word I always heard as "lie" or "lies"
Having looked it up, here are my thoughts.
I've always took it as John referencing Paul asking to John that Sgt Pepper took John by surprise. With believing the last word was "lie" it made perfect sense. John was refuting the idea that Paul created Pepper.
Now with "eyes" does that change the reference?
I've always seen/heard interviews or quotes suggesting "we came up with being this other band, Sgt Pepper, kind of an alter ego."
Did either of them, outside of this song ever truly take credit for the concept individually?
How do you understand the first two lines?
Overall, this song both amazes me on the ability to write a song with such intent and specifics while it saddens me of the visceral attack being made by John.
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Ive always understood Pepper to be Pauls idea, in interviews he has said that at the time there were bands with long names, like Country Joe and the fish and captain Beefharts magic band so he created a name of his own with their influence. He once said he thought of it on a plane journey.
I dont understand the first 2 lines of Johns, if it was indeed Pauls idea.
The song itself I hate, the nasty side of John Lennon, I cant imagine any other Beatle writing stuff like this about his mate, its pretty horrible in fact, but then John always was quite a bully.
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Heres Pauls version of the name/concept
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/features/beatles-sgt-pepper-at-50-what-inspired-the-title-track-w482061 (https://www.rollingstone.com/music/features/beatles-sgt-pepper-at-50-what-inspired-the-title-track-w482061)
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So the first two lines- my take when I thought the last word was lie or lies
I thought John was quoting Paul saying "so the concept of Pepper that I (Paul) created, took you by surprise" then replying with John saying back "get real, that is a lie"
I don't like the nastiness either but was part of their legacy at that time.
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It may be nasty but it's a great song.
The problem with your theory is that John sings "eyes" not "lies".
Personally I think the "you" in the first line is the listener. Saying kind of "Paul's idea for Sgt Pepper took you and everybody by surprise but you don't know how his mind really works".
But confusingly the "you" in the second line is John talking directly to Paul saying mentally the freaks were right when they said he was dead.
I've not yet found anyone who shares my opinion so feel free to disagree!
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It may be nasty but it's a great song.
The problem with your theory is that John sings "eyes" not "lies".
Personally I think the "you" in the first line is the listener. Saying kind of "Paul's idea for Sgt Pepper took you and everybody by surprise but you don't know how his mind really works".
But confusingly the "you" in the second line is John talking directly to Paul saying menatlly the freaks were right when they said he was dead.
I've not yet found anyone who shares my opinion so feel free to disagree!
Actually that’s always how I’ve heard it as well. The “you” changes who it’s about from the first half of the verse to the next. Can’t see how you could sensibly make it that Paul was surprised about Sgt Pepper. It’s no controversy to say it was his idea.
I think musically it’s a very effective song. With great biting slide by George. It’s a pity about the lyrics and subject matter. It seemed such nasty overkill. If he’d made it a more generally applicable lyric it might have lasted. Now it seems like a bit of a dated relic.
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It may be nasty but it's a great song.
The problem with your theory is that John sings "eyes" not "lies".
Personally I think the "you" in the first line is the listener. Saying kind of "Paul's idea for Sgt Pepper took you and everybody by surprise but you don't know how his mind really works".
But confusingly the "you" in the second line is John talking directly to Paul saying menatlly the freaks were right when they said he was dead.
I've not yet found anyone who shares my opinion so feel free to disagree!
I get what you are saying but there is no way John is praising Paul in the first lines. I take your part about "Paul's idea for Sgt Pepper took you and everybody by surprise" as praise on some level. No way at this time was John praising Paul beyond the "yesterday" reference.
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I think the opening lines are something to do with LSD
Pepper was the 'acid' album and Paul was the last of the 4 to take it, he admitted to being disturbed by the effects of acid, I think John is referring to Pauls first acid trip at the time of Pepper, also apparently they used to look into each others eyes for extended periods, this maybe explains the 2nd line, this is detailed in the book 'Many Years From Now'
The 2 lines were probably written in a sort of code that Paul would understand.
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Actually that’s always how I’ve heard it as well. The “you” changes who it’s about from the first half of the verse to the next. Can’t see how you could sensibly make it that Paul was surprised about Sgt Pepper. It’s no controversy to say it was his idea.
Well I'm pleased to hear I'm not alone on this.
I don't buy into all these theories saying Sgt Pepper is a code for LSD or whatever.
There's also great discussion about who or what is "that mother" in the same line. For me " that motherf ****** " is Paul. Yet I've read all kinds of strange explanations some saying the mother is also Sgt Pepper since it was the mother of all concept albums.
Lennon tended to be fairly direct in his lyrics and especially so in this 'tell all' myth-destroying period. So for me, if he says Sgt Pepper he means Sgt Pepper.
I think there may also be a second level of irritation showing. John was probably fed up with hearing Paul say "The press and public thought the Beatles were finished but we surprised them with my idea of Sgt Pepper". At this time Lennon would gleefully reveal that Sgt Pepper was no great concept, but just a collection of random songs.
In a way you could paraphrase the opening line as "So you the public are supposed to have accepted Paul's stupid idea that Pepper was a big deal. Well I don't think you're that dumb and I'm going to encourage you to see how that idiot just tries to manipulate people".
Hence what follows. The one mistake Paul made in his head was thinking people were gullible enough not to see the truth.
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I've always thought the line "so Sgt. Pepper took you by surprise" was something like saying "so the police caught you while you were committing a crime", using the figure of Sgt. Pepper as a kind of inner conscience that doesn't let Paul sleep at night, if that makes any sense. Anyway, it's nice to read different interpretations about that line, which is actually quite obscure, I think.
About the song itself, I think it's very entertaining and well performed. The lyrics are nasty but today should be seen as an intelligent joke, especially after John regretted about the song, it should adopt a different meaning.
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I've always thought the line "so Sgt. Pepper took you by surprise" was something like saying "so the police caught you while you were committing a crime", using the figure of Sgt. Pepper as a kind of inner conscience that doesn't let Paul sleep at night, if that makes any sense. Anyway, it's nice to read different interpretations about that line, which is actually quite obscure, I think.
I don't think Sgt Pepper is a policeman, but if he was, how would you interpret the second line?
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I don't think Sgt Pepper is a policeman, but if he was, how would you interpret the second line?
I didn't mean that Sgt. Pepper is a policeman, that was just a figure used in a similar expression. According to my interpretation, Sgt. Pepper would be Paul's conscience, and the mother in the second line would be the same conscience. "You better see right through that mother's eyes" would mean "you must deal with your conscience".
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I didn't mean that Sgt. Pepper is a policeman, that was just a figure used in a similar expression. According to my interpretation, Sgt. Pepper would be Paul's conscience, and the mother in the second line would be the same conscience. "You better see right through that mother's eyes" would mean "you must deal with your conscience".
"So your conscience took you by surpirse. You'd better see through your conscience's eyes".
Too heavy for me!
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"So your conscience took you by surpirse. You'd better see through your conscience's eyes".
Too heavy for me!
Yeah. Somehow "Sgt. Pepper" and "mother" could be seen as authority figures; and conscience is an authority who doesn't let you sleep when you are acting against it.
I know this interpretation may seem a little complicated or unnatural, but I think the lyrics of the song are somehow encrypted and open the way to several interpretations, so one must use the imagination.
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Yeah. Somehow "Sgt. Pepper" and "mother" could be seen as authority figures; and conscience is an authority who doesn't let you sleep when you are acting against it.
I know this interpretation may seem a little complicated or unnatural, but I think the lyrics of the song are somehow encrypted and open the way to several interpretations, so one must use the imagination.
Sorry but I don't see it.
Sgt Pepper was Paul's idea so it didn't take him by surprise. But it certainly took the fans by surpise by being so original yet immediately appealing.
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Sorry but I don't see it.
Sgt Pepper was Paul's idea so it didn't take him by surprise. But it certainly took the fans by surpise by being so original yet immediately appealing.
However, "you" in the song is clearly Paul. And I interpret "Sgt. Pepper" as a figure representing other thing, not as the literal album. Besides, if Sgt. Pepper came from Paul's mind, he certainly could be Paul's conscience or anything inside his head.
But hey, I'm not saying other interpretations are wrong, I'm just sharing how I've always felt about those lyrics within the context of the song. That's the way those words make sense to me.
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The song itself I hate, the nasty side of John Lennon, I cant imagine any other Beatle writing stuff like this about his mate, its pretty horrible in fact, but then John always was quite a bully.
I don't care for the song either, Kev. It's full of anger. Jealousy no doubt played a role in this...
https://youtu.be/Y4cw15nqZbM (https://youtu.be/Y4cw15nqZbM)
Paul's response...
https://youtu.be/jhlQRW11lcw (https://youtu.be/jhlQRW11lcw)
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https://youtu.be/fK5oJcn99d4 (https://youtu.be/fK5oJcn99d4)
A much better song and pleasantly-worded response.
Bravo, Paul! icon_good
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Didn't Paul quip, at the time, that he was going to write a rebuttal song called, "Very Well, Thank You"? (Or something like that?)
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Jealousy no doubt played a role in this...
I wouldn't say it was jealousy, I think it was resentment, as the same John said in 1980:
"I used my resentment against Paul … to create a song … not a terrible vicious horrible vendetta … I used my resentment and withdrawing from Paul and The Beatles, and the relationship with Paul, to write 'How Do You Sleep'. I don't really go 'round with those thoughts in my head all the time."
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Didn't Paul quip, at the time, that he was going to write a rebuttal song called, "Very Well, Thank You"? (Or something like that?)
I've always felt that "Let Me Roll It" was a kind of response to John, though the lyrics are not too obvious. In fact, the song has a John's style. John seemed to like it, since he used a similar riff in the instrumental "Beef Jerky".
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However, "you" in the song is clearly Paul.
No, no, no. That's the whole point of the discussion. The "you" in this song is not the same all the time.
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No, no, no. That's the whole point of the discussion. The "you" in this song is not the same all the time.
Well, that's a matter of interpretation, but I think it's something very forced changing the meaning of the word "you" throughout the song. I see the song as a letter, a direct message to someone, so I think "you" always means "Paul".
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Well, that's a matter of interpretation, but I think it's something very forced changing the meaning of the word "you" throughout the song. I see the song as a letter, a direct message to someone, so I think "you" always means "Paul".
Yes, it's a very direct message to Paul. But the first two lines are apart. They're a kind of introduction.
I think it's very forced to interpret 'that motherxxxxxx's eyes' in any other way than as a condamanation of McCartney's way of seeing things.
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^
I agree, zipp.
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Songs from John to Paul and from Paul to John:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FA6T7Ilp9o# (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FA6T7Ilp9o#)
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Yes, it's a very direct message to Paul. But the first two lines are apart. They're a kind of introduction.
I think it's very forced to interpret 'that motherxxxxxx's eyes' in any other way than as a condamanation of McCartney's way of seeing things.
I respect your interpretation, it actually makes sense if we take the first two lines separately; but I don't agree that the word "you" should change its meaning after those lines.
I think "Sgt. Pepper" and "mother" are figures referring to the same thing, though I'm not sure what thing it is. I thought about Paul's conscience, but I admit that's a very free interpretation of mine.
Sgt. Pepper could also be taken as Paul's alter-ego, which was actually Paul's idea about the album, creating an alter-ego band. That alter-ego would have taken the original Paul by surprise and "kill" him, so that the original Paul was dead and replaced by Paul's alter-ego. This would be the mistake occurring in Paul's head.
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(http://uploads.neatorama.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/LennonMcCartney.jpg)
(http://i66.tinypic.com/1z70z82.jpg)
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f7/09/62/f70962c19edc0212e19e36d7ef421835.jpg)
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(http://24.media.tumblr.com/307db36736c6995a54ca8310f5b1e76d/tumblr_mhikpzmCK71qzkyd5o1_500.gif)
;D
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My interpretation of this acerbic classic's opening two lines:
"So Sgt. Pepper [the album, Paul's brainchild] took you [the listening public] by surprise,
You'd better see right through that mother(f*****)'s [=Paul's] eyes."
So John begins with a "Let me tell you the truth about your beloved goody-goody Paul" to the music fans.
Thereafter, having invited us in as witnesses, he consciously switches the narrative directing it straight at/to Paul himself whilst we look on....
It's laced with all sorts of clever and viscious barbs, with John's trademark peerless vocals and that hypnotic, serpentine rhythm - even the snake-like hiss: "sleep at nightssssssss" hints at Paul's perceived (by John) underhand, sneaky attitude. How can you sleep at nights, Paul? How can you look yourself in the mirror? was what a wounded John seemed to be saying. Lennon always covered his pain with anger. But this was the early 70s and as we all know, there was a LOT of paranoia and bad blood around at the time. George and Ringo tended to side with John in seeing Paul as manipulative and selfish, secretively cutting publishing deals, re-polishing his tracks alone in the studio after sessions wound up, timing press announcements about the band's break up etc. Of course it wasn't really like that, but the long shadow of Klein was still very much in evidence.
I've never held this song against John. It's too glib to dismiss him as being nasty. At the time he (wrongly) thought Paul was being a c**t and didn't shy away (did he ever?) from spelling out the truth as he saw it. Remember when it seemed they'd "rumbled" the Maharishi? it was always left to honest John to blow the lid off these things ("Sexy Sadie"). Also, let's not selectively overlook the fact that it was Lennon's confrontational battering-ram determination (that same "nastiness"?) which smashed through those conventional barriers which would otherwise have prevented such a cheeky, provincial, unconventional group ever having made their big breakthrough back in deferential, forelock-tugging 1962.
I've never seen "Let Me Roll It" as McCartney's reply to be honest. In fact you COULD argue that "How Do You Sleep?" was in fact Lennon's reply to the pointed lyrical references in "Too Many People" from "Ram", which pre-dates "Imagine" by a few months and contains a few veiled needles of its own, with references to "going underground" (remember John & Yoko's support for Oz?) and "eating too much cake" (the chubby diet regime of Primal Scream therapy) etc...
They were daggers drawn back then.
Happily, this didn't last.
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I think John sucked a bit too much monkberry moon delight before he recorded the song.
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I sleep well, thank you...... icon_good
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My interpretation of this acerbic classic's opening two lines:
"So Sgt. Pepper [the album, Paul's brainchild] took you [the listening public] by surprise,
You'd better see right through that mother(f*****)'s [=Paul's] eyes."
So John begins with a "Let me tell you the truth about your beloved goody-goody Paul" to the music fans.
Thereafter, having invited us in as witnesses, he consciously switches the narrative directing it straight at/to Paul himself whilst we look on....
Yes this is my way of thinking. I'm so pleased you see it the same way.