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Solo forums => Paul McCartney => Topic started by: Wayne L. on March 09, 2005, 07:21:01 PM

Title: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Wayne L. on March 09, 2005, 07:21:01 PM
I don't think Paul has earned the praises as a solo artist & with his band Wings for over 30 years now since the breakup of the Beatles because he has recorded some of the best mainstream pop, rock & pap around with only a few sparks of greatness.   McCartney is one of the greatest singers, songwriters, musicians & performers of all time with few equals while he has released more mediocre music than great music as a solo artist & with Wings but he knows how to keep his name in the spotlight for over 40 years.  Paul hasn't lived up to his legendary status as a former Beatle as an artist which isn't being negative just stating the facts but there's no denying he is one of a kind in rock history who will never be forgotten.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: on March 09, 2005, 09:53:53 PM
Yeah... I agree wholeheartedly with you... I've discussed on several occassions his brilliant musical abilities... It seems that only his mind could've come up with all of those masterful hits he created throughout the 70's... Band on the Run (the song, not the album) is great example of this... It's like three songs in one... Very brilliantly put together...

I can't wait to see him in concert, if the tour is really going to happen.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Because on March 09, 2005, 09:55:45 PM
i think paul himself admits that his best work was with the beatles. like u said, he sporadically has great songs a la band on the run.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Mairi on March 09, 2005, 10:13:30 PM
That may be somewhat true, but it's hard to follow up with all the amazing stuff he wrote in The Beatles, don't you think?
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: on March 09, 2005, 10:28:57 PM
How can he possibly compete with his past? He has earned every single praise he has garnered.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: tkitna on March 10, 2005, 12:51:24 AM
Quote from: juniorsfarm
How can he possibly compete with his past? He has earned every single praise he has garnered.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Mairi on March 10, 2005, 12:53:16 AM
Yeah. Let this thread die.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: tkitna on March 10, 2005, 01:04:31 AM
Quote from: Wayne_L.
I don't think Paul has earned the praises as a solo artist & with his band Wings for over 30 years now since the breakup of the Beatles because he has recorded some of the best mainstream pop, rock & pap around with only a few sparks of greatness.

This doesnt even make sense!! How can he only have a few sparks of greatness if you said he recorded some of the best mainstream pop, rock & pap (whatever that is) around? Maybe the best mainstream pop, rock & pap (whatever that is) isnt great? Whatever.

Quote
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: on March 10, 2005, 01:05:17 AM
Quote from: tkitna

Finally a voice of reason!!!! Thank you Junior. It really is that simple. Why bring this up anymore?

Hasn't this been beaten to death on this forum?  People like to criticize all things great because somehow it makes them feel important. Look at all this man has accomplished and continues to accomplish, and feel fortunate that you are alive to experience it. So what if everything isn't a masterpiece? There is still a ton of excellent post-Beatle music he has created and continues to create. When any of you naysayers can come up with anything that has one scintilla the brilliance this man has created, then maybe post this stupid topic again. And, no, I'm not one of these 'Paul Can Do No Wrong' fans, he has released some subpar stuff but so has everyone else that has ever released an album.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: tkitna on March 10, 2005, 01:08:40 AM
Quote from: Mairi
Yeah. Let this thread die.

Your right Mairi. I dont even know why I responded.

(I have to quit logging on while drinking)
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: In Blue Hawaii on March 11, 2005, 06:46:41 PM
It's tacit acknowledgment by Paul that his music has been pushed to the sidelines. Maybe that's the reason why recently he offered a slew of his solo songs to be used in adverts..and maybe the reason he's doing it is for the exposure. If it's going to live on in the next generation, he's got to get it to that generation somehow...

More power to him.

Good thread. Very..timely.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: In Blue Hawaii on March 11, 2005, 06:48:20 PM
^Moreover I think Paul seems to think his solo music is somewhat disposable. I'm sure it may be the bashing he has taken over the years about it from some fans and critics. If you look at his tours since 1989, he only really plays a handful of solo hits & whatever new album he is plugging. The rest is all Beatles. I think you could count all the post 1976 he plays tunes on 1 hand (minus the new album). Maybe this is his way of trying to get some of his solo music out there to a new audience.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Ivo on March 12, 2005, 03:13:56 AM
He earned it all in spades...no Beatle was releasing many masterpieces after 1976 or so.

We have no idea how much better or worse John would have become musically so its kind of pointless to debate that one.

He gets praises from people who want to praise him, he has plenty of detractors too...so what's the point of all this?
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Wayne L. on March 13, 2005, 12:11:14 AM
Quote from: TheDude
i think paul himself admits that his best work was with the beatles. like u said, he sporadically has great songs a la band on the run.

I agree with you 100% about Paul as a solo artist which is the way most Beatles fan should look at it instead of kissing his ass which is why what I'm saying isn't negative just factual.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: andyec on March 28, 2005, 04:31:16 AM
 Paul's solo stuff gets bashed all the time. Only rarely does it get praised. Usually,the praise comes when he releases a new album. Every time,some of the critics will give backhanded compliments by saying it's his best album since...
They were wrong when they said it about Driving Rain,Off the Ground,Flowers in the Dirt,Press to Play,and Pipes for Peace,but they were right when they said it about Flaming Pie and Tug of War. Hopefully,they'll be right when they say it,which they undoubtedly will,about this new one.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Joost on March 29, 2005, 01:32:37 AM
500 Years from now, Paul McCartney will be just as much of a legend as Mozart, Bach and Beethoven. Seriously.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: tkitna on March 29, 2005, 01:03:29 PM
Quote from: Biscuit_Power
500 Years from now, Paul McCartney will be just as much of a legend as Mozart, Bach and Beethoven. Seriously.

Truer words have never been spoken!

Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Mairi on March 29, 2005, 04:32:42 PM
Nothing more needs to be said. Biscuit Power has summed it up for all of us.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Indica on March 29, 2005, 05:27:04 PM
Quote from: Biscuit_Power
500 Years from now, Paul McCartney will be just as much of a legend as Mozart, Bach and Beethoven. Seriously.

Amen.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on March 29, 2005, 09:40:45 PM
Quote from: Biscuit_Power
500 Years from now, Paul McCartney will be just as much of a legend as Mozart, Bach and Beethoven. Seriously.

Well that is just simply nonsense. Anyone who agrees with that simply has no clue about the complexity and depth of the music written by those three, especially Bach (meaning Johann Sebastian Bach, I presume).

Paul will be known as one of the Beatles, the greatest pop and rock group of their age. The Beatles will be remembered as a cultural icon, and the creators of some clever and very original pieces, recorded in ground-breaking ways. The only pieces that have any, any chance of still being played or listened to in any way are tracks like Rain, Tomorrow Never Knows, Strawberry Fields, Walrus, Revolution 9. Yeah, yeah, I know what some of you will think and say! But honestly, they are works of genius, in a way that none of Paul's or George's (or Ringo's) songs are.

But Paul as a separate entity? Mentioned in the same breath as Bach, Mozart, Beethoven? Come on, get a hold on reality. Paul McCartney may be the author of what you think are very pleasant, hummable songs. But FIVE centuries of longevity are not built on silly love songs!
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Indica on March 29, 2005, 10:47:57 PM
I agree, that  Mozart, Bach and Beethoven all show extraordinary intellect and talent, which still challenges that of modern composers. But, it has to be remembered that at the time (without hindsight) the music these composers wrote was aimed at a specific audience, much like that of pop*. The audience was very much different, but it is this consistent ideology of audience engagement, which can be seen in any performer, and in any field of music.
 The Beatles music or sound may not be classed as complex but it certainly contains depth and meaning. This is obvious and, naturally celebrated. Mccartney being a critical figure in the 'four-headed monster'  can therefore be honored with such a comment.
Songs such as Yesterday, Penny Lane, Eleanor Rigby, Let it be .. etc
The above songs all show what you term genius
Oh, and the songs you have mentioned, its not like Lennon sat in a white room, cut off from all life, and wrote, played and recorded all by himself...howway, ever recorded yourself? It doesn't work like that. Mccartney input was critical to Lennon (and obviously vica-versa) so Mccartney can, like Lennon, be celebrated.

 Mccartney as a seperate entity? Yes, of course!
The Beatles are the best at what they do, much like the classical comparison of Mozart, Bach and Beethoven.

* The term pop often troubles me. We all know the interpretation has changed over the decades, but using pop to front a negative view on the actual music is a modern misconception of meaning.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on March 29, 2005, 11:08:10 PM
Quotes from Indica
Quote
Oh, and the songs you have mentioned, its not like Lennon sat in a white room, cut off from all life, and wrote, played and recorded all by himself...howway, ever recorded yourself? It doesn't work like that. Mccartney input was critical to Lennon (and obviously vica-versa) so Mccartney can, like Lennon, be celebrated.

True, so true. I didn't mean to imply no-one else had any input. But the idea of the songs I quoted was John Lennon's. But without the others and George Martin, and engineers, they would not have been the works they are.


Quote
The Beatles music or sound may not be classed as complex but it certainly contains depth and meaning. This is obvious and, naturally celebrated. Mccartney being a critical figure in the 'four-headed monster'
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Indica on March 29, 2005, 11:12:42 PM
500 years is along time, I must admit after frantically typing, I sat back, and then thought about 500 actual years...slightly hypercritical on my behalf.

But Hey Jude, that has to survive..its an anthem for millions of people.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on March 29, 2005, 11:20:44 PM
Interesting. I think THE song of Macca's that might (just might) be remembered is For No One. The perspective from which the singer sings is very interesting. The singer is neither the man nor the woman, but is inside each of their heads.

Some of the twists in the song are unique to a love song. For example, "... all her words of kindness linger on when she no longer needs you". Kindness? What a thing for a pining lover to remember! Her words of kindness! What sort of love and relationship did this couple have?

Virtually no-one knows (outside rabid fans) about For No One. Long may it remain that way, so it remains a superb song (OK work of genius) to be discovered and re-discovered.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Indica on March 29, 2005, 11:33:36 PM
I love for no one, one of my personal favourites.
I always thought the lines:


She says that long ago she knew someone but now he
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: andyec on March 30, 2005, 03:09:52 AM
I never hear those guys on the radio. But,The Beatles,I hear all the time. Of course,I fall asleep when I try to listen to classical music-just not sophisticated enough,I guess. They need better lyrics.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: beatleslover101 on March 30, 2005, 05:19:02 AM
RIGHT ON!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Joost on March 30, 2005, 01:13:50 PM
Quote from: Ydoll_Gwyn
Well that is just simply nonsense. Anyone who agrees with that simply has no clue about the complexity and depth of the music written by those three, especially Bach (meaning Johann Sebastian Bach, I presume).

The complexity and depth of the music are totally irrelevant! It's the impact that it had that matters. The music of The Beatles had a much bigger impact on humanity (partially because of radio and TV of course) than Bach's music ever had.

Hundreds of years from now, the Beatles will be remembered as almost mythical figures, like we remember Shakespear, Da Vinci, Bach or Rembrandt now.

And most classical might be much more complex and deeper than any piece of pop music ever made, but I think it's arrogant to think that (good) pop music is a lower art form than classical music, painting, sculpturing or poetry. Cause it simply isn't. I studied art history for several years, but no art form has ever touched me the way pop music does. To not recognize pop music as a true form of art is to me arrogant and overtly conservative.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Joost on March 30, 2005, 01:22:57 PM
Quote from: Ydoll_Gwyn
No, not genius. Just good songs.

You've gotta be kidding... If writing the best selling music ever isn't good enough to be labeled a genius, then I seriously don't know what is... You're just not making any sense here.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Bruno on March 30, 2005, 02:55:23 PM
Of course The Beatles will be remembered 500 years from now. They even have Beatles History classes at the universities now
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: tkitna on March 30, 2005, 04:05:28 PM
Quote from: Biscuit_Power

You've gotta be kidding... If writing the best selling music ever isn't good enough to be labeled a genius, then I seriously don't know what is... You're just not making any sense here.

I couldnt have said it any better.

This whole thread reminds me of something Maria said many moons ago, that after George died, his music would be more highly praised than Pauls. That may have been the stupidest thing i've ever read. I love George and his solo stuff, but outside of the more intense Beatle fans, his music is almost forgotten NOW. Sad but true.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on March 30, 2005, 08:29:50 PM
I think most of you folk posting in this thread don't quite realize how long 500 years is. In 1505 (500 years ago), there was a wealth of popular songs - as in all times. Virtually all of them are now long forgotten. Same applies to literature, all sorts of music, art. Only the very best survive. My point is that only a few Beatles works will survive if any: and they will be Lennon's, as the songs of his I gave earlier are more than "pop hits" of their day. They feel to me to have a timeless quality, which is part of their attraction.

But Paul McCartney remembered for his work OTHER THAN AS A BEATLE? Oh no. I think that's as certain as anything can be. You think people will be talking about Band On the Run in 500 years? Come on, that's silly.

Some of you need to be educated in some other forms of music too. The person who said he never hears Beethoven etc on the radio ain't listening to suitable stations!
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on March 30, 2005, 08:35:40 PM
Quote from: tkitna

I couldnt have said it any better.

This whole thread reminds me of something Maria said many moons ago, that after George died, his music would be more highly praised than Pauls. That may have been the stupidest thing i've ever read. I love George and his solo stuff, but outside of the more intense Beatle fans, his music is almost forgotten NOW. Sad but true.

In some circles, George's work is much more praised than McCartney's. I think a lot of Paul's revisionism stems from the realization that only his Beatle work is respected and of lasting value. His whole solo career is pretty empty - there were good times, and lots of people come to his concerts still. But only coz he was a Beatle. Do you think Flaming Pie or McCartney (1) or Red Rose Speedway or Flowers In The Dirt would have gone anywhere if Paul had NOT been a Beatle?

George's Beatle work (playing and some of his songs) are respected, AND some of his solo work is wonderful, and is so valued. Paul's silly love songs haunt him, that's for sure.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Sondra on March 30, 2005, 11:40:43 PM
Could someone please list a bunch of solo songs from each so we can sort of see and compare. I'm not that into their solo stuff, so I'm only familiar with the popular stuff. But I'd like to know which songs you all would say are thier best. Like if you list 10 or more songs from each maybe it will paint a better picture.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Mairi on March 30, 2005, 11:45:10 PM
But I don't even know if that would be fair, since Paul has made an enormous amount more than John. So Paul would have more "best" songs to choose from.

But maybe that kind of settles it, eh?
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Sondra on March 30, 2005, 11:46:42 PM
Yeah, but lots of people think after the 70's he sort of lost it. So maybe just stuff from that era. Did George do much after the 70's? I mean besides the Traveling Wilburys?
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Mairi on March 30, 2005, 11:58:03 PM
Actually he went on a solo tour in '74, but it was panned.

(The Traveling Wilburys were in the 80s, I think)
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Sondra on March 31, 2005, 12:08:57 AM
Yes, definitely the 80's. I remember it! I mean did he do anything SOLO after the 70's. I have no idea.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Mairi on March 31, 2005, 12:14:00 AM
Oh. Um.. Got My Mind Set on You in '87. :p
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Bruno on March 31, 2005, 12:39:38 AM
George released his worst album during the 80s (Gone Troppo) and one of his best (Cloud Nine)
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Mairi on March 31, 2005, 01:19:22 AM
Thanks for the info Bruno.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: lennonlemon on March 31, 2005, 01:23:32 AM
'I've Got Mind Set On You' is a nice tune.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Mairi on March 31, 2005, 01:28:58 AM
But it doesn't have much artistic merit.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Herecomesyoursun on March 31, 2005, 01:39:17 AM
^what does that mean?
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Mairi on March 31, 2005, 01:43:24 AM
It's a pop piece. Not like his usual dreamy, real thought-out, intricate music. You know? Sorry, I'm not very good at explaining things. Gr. It sounded better in my head.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: tkitna on March 31, 2005, 08:04:52 AM
Quote from: Ydoll_Gwyn

In some circles, George's work is much more praised than McCartney's.

These are very small circles.

Quote
His whole solo career is pretty empty

Think about what you just said. After reading this, I realize that there truly is no reasoning with you. Your in your own world. If Pauls solo career is pretty empty, the other Beatles solo careers must have been nonexistent.

Quote
- there were good times, and lots of people come to his concerts still. But only coz he was a Beatle.

I go and I prefer to hear his solo stuff compared to the Beatle songs.

Quote
Do you think Flaming Pie or McCartney (1) or Red Rose Speedway or Flowers In The Dirt would have gone anywhere if Paul had NOT been a Beatle?

I'd listen to them, but to answer your question, probably not. The same can be said for 33 1/2, Dark Horse, Extra texture, George Harrison, Walls And Bridges, Mind Games, New York City, etc,,,,. See the pattern here?

Quote
George's Beatle work (playing and some of his songs) are respected, AND some of his solo work is wonderful, and is so valued.

Insert any of the Beatles names into that quote.

Quote
Paul's silly love songs haunt him, that's for sure.

Yes, i'm sure that he's losing sleep everynight by being the most successful of the four and thinking of ways to spend his billion dollars that he's earned with his silly love songs. Get real.

Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: An Apple Beatle on March 31, 2005, 03:40:50 PM
Ydoll, what is this persistence in de-valuing McCartney on a Beatle forum? Empty? Some Circles?
I can see the logic behind your statements to a degree but again it's Ydoll's 'anti-Paul' time.
In terms of differentiating who will be remembered more in 500yrs time is well off the mark. Well I suppose Lennon did base a lot of his songs on '3 blind mice' if your talking nursery ryhmes. Seriously though, if anyone does remember them and which one 'wrote' them, what Lennon contenders would you have over Pauls?
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on March 31, 2005, 08:17:58 PM
It never ceases to amaze me that Paul-fans hate any criticism of their man, but they feel free themselves to criticize the other three to some degree or another.

My view is that criticism of any of them is fine - Beatle forum or not.

Remember that Paul himself acknowledges that several of his releases (especially in the 80s) were ill-advised. I agree with Paul on this.

The fact remains that most of Paul's songs are quite lightweight. Some of us wish he would try harder, but we know it's probably too late now. But if you love Paul's lightweight stuff: that's great. But don't hassle me for saying I don't like it!

Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on March 31, 2005, 08:30:57 PM
My replies to Tkitna in bold.

These are very small circles. Maybe, but they are quality circles. Quality always beats quantity.



Think about what you just said. After reading this, I realize that there truly is no reasoning with you. Your in your own world. If Pauls solo career is pretty empty, the other Beatles solo careers must have been nonexistent.
I meant (clearly) empty in terms of quality. Quality always wins.

I go and I prefer to hear his solo stuff compared to the Beatle songs.
Really? I don't go because I like to pay for quality.


I'd listen to them, but to answer your question, probably not. The same can be said for 33 1/2, Dark Horse, Extra texture, George Harrison, Walls And Bridges, Mind Games, New York City, etc,,,,. See the pattern here?
Interesting that you go for the lower quality works of the others. Answer me this: did Paul come close to All Things Must Pass and JL/POB? Did he even get close to Imagine or Cloud Nine or Living In The Material World? You see, I go for quality. And these albums would certainly have held their own without the Beatle stamp, especially ATMP and JL/POB.


Insert any of the Beatles names into that quote. Except Paul. Sorry, joke.


Yes, i'm sure that he's losing sleep everynight by being the most successful of the four and thinking of ways to spend his billion dollars that he's earned with his silly love songs. Get real.
Well, that's the point - I think he may well see that he wasted his gifts on lightweight "silly love songs". As I've said before, that might account for so much of Paul's famous "revisionism". And: I laugh at the way so many Paul fans point to the dollars he has amassed as a sign of his success! Some of us go for quality - and I bet Paul wishes he had too.



Just a small point in the interests of accuracy: it's 33 1/3, not 33 1/2. I like accuracy - it's a quality thing.

Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Sondra on March 31, 2005, 08:38:56 PM
I think Paul had a period of time when he was trying to get across that he DID hava a lot of input into the Beatles music and so on. I think he's stopped doing that now. I think he was a little paranoid there for a minute. But JOhn did the same sort of thing when he took all the credit for songs he DID do with Paul. And then he later admitted to lying about it. Paul got a lot of crap there for a while about being fluff. Any man would want to defend themselves. So he didn't do it in the best way. I think he's over it now.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: An Apple Beatle on March 31, 2005, 09:40:42 PM
Quote from: Ydoll_Gwyn
It never ceases to amaze me that Paul-fans hate any criticism of their man, but they feel free themselves to criticize the other three to some degree or another.

My view is that criticism of any of them is fine - Beatle forum or not.

Remember that Paul himself acknowledges that several of his releases (especially in the 80s) were ill-advised. I agree with Paul on this.

The fact remains that most of Paul's songs are quite lightweight. Some of us wish he would try harder, but we know it's probably too late now. But if you love Paul's lightweight stuff: that's great. But don't hassle me for saying I don't like it!


When have I ever slated the other three? You are relentless in critisicising Paul at any opportunity. I said I agreed with some of your points and the 80's were definitely a bad time (I think) for Paul. (Stevie Wonder suffered the same.)

Many bands and performers have continued longer without a fraction of songs to their name. I'm just stating that he is no way as near as bad as you make him out to be. And at any opportunity, I will point that out. Same as I would for all the others. No-one digs at John as you do with Paul.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: pc31 on March 31, 2005, 11:44:16 PM
don't mind me..........i'm just sweeping up.....
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: An Apple Beatle on April 01, 2005, 06:29:35 AM
^ LOL. Where you at PC? It's been a while. ;)
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on April 01, 2005, 06:54:37 AM
Quote from: An_Apple_Beatle

When have I ever slated the other three? You are relentless in critisicising Paul at any opportunity. I said I agreed with some of your points and the 80's were definitely a bad time (I think) for Paul. (Stevie Wonder suffered the same.)

Many bands and performers have continued longer without a fraction of songs to their name. I'm just stating that he is no way as near as bad as you make him out to be. And at any opportunity, I will point that out. Same as I would for all the others. No-one digs at John as you do with Paul.

First paragraph: Here's a dig of yours at John:Well I suppose Lennon did base a lot of his songs on '3 blind mice' if your talking nursery ryhmes. Not a big slam, maybe - but you've had plenty of goes.

Second Paragraph: Paul's work is largely (not completely) awful, post Beatles. I have stated in other threads often what work of Paul's I value. But I think most of it is lightweight schmaltz. And, guess what: I'm entitled to say it!

No-one digs at John like I do at Paul? Of course not: even John's also largely mediocre solo work puts Paul's to shame. No reason to dig so much at John, plenty at Paul.

Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: An Apple Beatle on April 01, 2005, 07:12:18 AM
Y'doll, Ydoll. I was actually making a point that you seemed to miss. It was by Lennon's own admission that he based songs around nursery rhymes. I was relating to the fact that nursery ryhmes actually stick around for years and years.

It was also no attempt to belittle the Lennon meister. I've been inspired by that notion of '3 blind mice' in songwriting. It's refreshing. I like Lennon a lot. In ways, more so than McCartney. I just happen to be 'Paul' in a band. Dosn't mean I'm a Macca fan.....Guess what? It might mean I'm a Beatle fan and I have a higher voice register than my mate. It's you that makes me sound Macca obsessed when you harp on about how bad Macca is. I'm just balancing the adress of opinion. I think you got me all wrong.

Plenty of goes? About Lennon? What are you on about? When? Where?
Your entitled to say what you want of course. It dosn't mean your right. Maybe more grammatically correct, but not right.

Anyways, back to your earlier point. Which Lennon song would you have over Pauls in terms of most remembered? A simple question you have chosen to avoid.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on April 01, 2005, 07:22:13 AM
I may well have missed your point. You come on strong, then retreat, I notice, in many discussions. So if I missed your thrust, sorry.

You ask: Which Lennon song would you have over Pauls in terms of most remembered? A simple question you have chosen to avoid.

I haven't really avoided it, but I admit you do have to follow my reasoning through several posts. Here it is in a nutshell: In 500 years, none of anyone's solo stuff will be remembered, except perhaps (a huge perhaps) by academics researching mid-20th century popular music. However, a few Beatle songs will maybe still be in some sort of public consciousness: as I said earlier, they all happen to come from the Lennon brain. Rain, Walrus, Strawberry Fields, Tomorrow Never Knows. But probably not. 500 years is a VERY long time.

Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: An Apple Beatle on April 01, 2005, 07:28:04 AM
It sure is a long time. I find that the songs you are stating however are too intricate lyrically and melodically to be remembered. (Except SF.)

I must retreat to work now. ;)
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: tkitna on April 01, 2005, 11:32:06 AM
Quote from: Ydoll_Gwyn
However, a few Beatle songs will maybe still be in some sort of public consciousness: as I said earlier, they all happen to come from the Lennon brain. Rain, Walrus, Strawberry Fields, Tomorrow Never Knows. But probably not. 500 years is a VERY long time.


Yesterday and Let It Be will easily outlive the songs mentioned above. Surely, you must see this.

Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: tkitna on April 01, 2005, 11:45:57 AM
Quote from: Ydoll_Gwyn
These are very small circles. Maybe, but they are quality circles. Quality always beats quantity.

Quality is an opinion in the eyes of the beholder. As I said above,,,,very small circles. The majority and masses cant all be wrong, can they? I hope your not so full of your self to see this.

Quote
Think about what you just said. After reading this, I realize that there truly is no reasoning with you. Your in your own world. If Pauls solo career is pretty empty, the other Beatles solo careers must have been nonexistent.
I meant (clearly) empty in terms of quality. Quality always wins.

My first post pertains to this one also.

Quote
I go and I prefer to hear his solo stuff compared to the Beatle songs.
Really? I don't go because I like to pay for quality.

Again, the all mighty Ydolls opinion of quality and personal taste is so far above the majority of the mass population that surely, we all must be wrong.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on April 01, 2005, 05:14:53 PM
Tkitna: you have your views, which you press strongly. Good on ya.

So do I.

So stop with these implications that I regard my own view as being above others (or however you'd put it). (Examples: I hope your not so full of your self to see this., and Again, the all mighty Ydolls opinion of quality and personal taste is so far above the majority of the mass population that surely, we all must be wrong. ) You're getting really tedious.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on April 01, 2005, 05:58:57 PM
Quote from: tkitna

Yesterday and Let It Be will easily outlive the songs mentioned above. Surely, you must see this.


But there's nothing especially deep or interesting or creative about these tunes. YOU might personally have them as favorites, but the tunes, lyrics, are nothing more special than in thousands of other songs.

But Walrus, SFF (for example) are UNIQUE. Remember, the Beatles great reputation as innovators doesn't come from Let It Be, or Penny Lane, or I've Just Seen A Face.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Bruno on April 01, 2005, 07:12:22 PM
Yesterday is waay better that Im the Walrus
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Sondra on April 01, 2005, 07:36:19 PM
Quote from: Ydoll_Gwyn

But there's nothing especially deep or interesting or creative about these tunes. YOU might personally have them as favorites, but the tunes, lyrics, are nothing more special than in thousands of other songs.

But Walrus, SFF (for example) are UNIQUE. Remember, the Beatles great reputation as innovators doesn't come from Let It Be, or Penny Lane, or I've Just Seen A Face.

Nothing deep about Yesterday or Let it Be? But Walurs is so deep? He just put a bunch of words together. It's a great song, but if you ask 9 out of 10 non Beatles fans which song they've heard of, I'm sure it wouldn't be I am the Walrus. It's an amazing song, I LOVE it, but it doesn't seem to touch as many people as the other songs. SFF is beautiful lyrically, but what puts it up so much higher than Yesterday or Let it Be? Or Hey Jude, Penny Lane, or Blackbird for that matter. And if you think the innovations came only from Lennon, then you're being biased. He was part of a band, they worked together. A lot of the ideas came from a group effort. But this is exactly what extreme Lennon fans do that makes Paul so paranoid to the point where he has to actually say hey I was there too. And then of course is made to be an egomaniac about it. Which by their own admission they all had that tendency.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Mairi on April 01, 2005, 08:32:41 PM
I Am The Walrus is just a bunch of nonsense crap that John threw together. Yesterday, Hey Jude and Let It Be are highly renowned MASTERPIECES. Yes, masterpieces. Strawberry Fields is also a masterpiece, as are A Day In The Life and Revolution. (As well as Something, Here Comes the Sun, and While My Guitar Gently Weeps) But I Am The Walrus? It's just a nice little song. Nothing that special about it, except for the fact that it's catchy and doesn't mean anything. I never liked it, but I can see why some people would.
You try writing a song like Yesterday, Let It Be, or Hey Jude and let's see what you come up with. Those songs will remain in the social consciousness forever because of their profound lyrics. To claim that there's nothing special about them is preposterous.
If you prefer John's work, that's cool. We all have our own different tastes. But to discredit Paul to the point where you make it seem like John WAS the Beatles is ridiculous. You're doing just the same thing many Paul-haters accuse him of doing towards John. And as Sandra said, Paul tries to set the record straight and goes overboard sometimes. Not his best moment, but I can see why he would be so neurotic about being forgotten.
That's why George hardly mentioned John in I Me Mine- he was sick of being told that he was inferior to Lennon/McCartney and was understandably bitter.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: An Apple Beatle on April 01, 2005, 08:53:10 PM
Go Girls!!! Well said. ;)
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on April 01, 2005, 09:41:46 PM
Let's see now. What is I AM THE WALRUS?

We all know about John Lennon's admiration of Lewis Carroll. Lewis Carroll is the author or the Alice books, and many others. A great thread going through the two Alice books, and lots of his other works (eg, The Hunting of the Snark) is "nonsense". By this I don't mean merely silly or stupid things; rather, I mean by "nonsense" a technical term for writing that might have one or more of these features:

*meaningless words and sounds strung together in an apparently meaningful way
*a "take-off" of an established poem (song, story, whatever) using irrelevant words and sounds in place of the "real" ones
*stream of consciousness listing and connecting of events, places, people etc in a way that has internal logic, but no obvious link with reality

Lewis Carroll was a master of "nonsense". Some would claim James Joyce wrote "nonsense". Certainly Edward Lear did, and John Lennon knew about him too.

So: What is I AM THE WALRUS?
The song is one of the great "nonsense" pieces. Nonsense is a difficult genre to do successfully, as it can sound stupid or pretentious very easily.

Further, I AM THE WALRUS is a rarity - a nonsense recording. Why do I say recording? Because not only are the words a "nonsense poem", but the arrangement (instruments, the radio pieces, the choir) all have their "nonsense" features. The whole recording is "nonsense", in the technical sense.

Now, do you see why Walrus might just survive a little longer than Yesterday?
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on April 01, 2005, 09:46:26 PM
Quote from: Mairi
I Am The Walrus is just a bunch of nonsense crap that John threw together. Yesterday, Hey Jude and Let It Be are highly renowned MASTERPIECES. Yes, masterpieces. Strawberry Fields is also a masterpiece, as are A Day In The Life and Revolution. (As well as Something, Here Comes the Sun, and While My Guitar Gently Weeps) But I Am The Walrus? It's just a nice little song. Nothing that special about it, except for the fact that it's catchy and doesn't mean anything. I never liked it, but I can see why some people would.
You try writing a song like Yesterday, Let It Be, or Hey Jude and let's see what you come up with. Those songs will remain in the social consciousness forever because of their profound lyrics. To claim that there's nothing special about them is preposterous.
If you prefer John's work, that's cool. We all have our own different tastes. But to discredit Paul to the point where you make it seem like John WAS the Beatles is ridiculous. You're doing just the same thing many Paul-haters accuse him of doing towards John. And as Sandra said, Paul tries to set the record straight and goes overboard sometimes. Not his best moment, but I can see why he would be so neurotic about being forgotten.
That's why George hardly mentioned John in I Me Mine- he was sick of being told that he was inferior to Lennon/McCartney and was understandably bitter.

People around here seem to forget that I give Paul his dues all the time. I just don't him dues if he hasn't earned them. Kind of like others do to Lennon!

From my other post, I hope you can see why it's ridiculous to call Walrus just a bunch of nonsense crap that John threw together.

And I'm sure you'll forgive me if I say that I find the lyrics of Yesterday, Let It Be etc are NOT profound at all. In fact, for profound lyrics from Paul you have to go to songs like Rigby and For No One.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Mairi on April 01, 2005, 10:01:38 PM
Quote from: Ydoll_Gwyn
Let's see now. What is I AM THE WALRUS?

We all know about John Lennon's admiration of Lewis Carroll. Lewis Carroll is the author or the Alice books, and many others. A great thread going through the two Alice books, and lots of his other works (eg, The Hunting of the Snark) is "nonsense". By this I don't mean merely silly or stupid things; rather, I mean by "nonsense" a technical term for writing that might have one or more of these features:

*meaningless words and sounds strung together in an apparently meaningful way
*a "take-off" of an established poem (song, story, whatever) using irrelevant words and sounds in place of the "real" ones
*stream of consciousness listing and connecting of events, places, people etc in a way that has internal logic, but no obvious link with reality

Lewis Carroll was a master of "nonsense". Some would claim James Joyce wrote "nonsense". Certainly Edward Lear did, and John Lennon knew about him too.

So: What is I AM THE WALRUS?
The song is one of the great "nonsense" pieces. Nonsense is a difficult genre to do successfully, as it can sound stupid or pretentious very easily.

Further, I AM THE WALRUS is a rarity - a nonsense recording. Why do I say recording? Because not only are the words a "nonsense poem", but the arrangement (instruments, the radio pieces, the choir) all have their "nonsense" features. The whole recording is "nonsense", in the technical sense.

Now, do you see why Walrus might just survive a little longer than Yesterday?

Now, I've read both the Alice books, and while I do agree that Lewis Carroll wrote what some call "nonsense', at least he actually gave it a second meaning. There was an actual storyline beneath all the gibberish.
John, on the other hand, wrote Walrus and said- and this is a real quote- "Let the f***ers figure that one out".
Yesterday is a universal song that everyone can relate to.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on April 01, 2005, 10:09:08 PM
Quote from: Mairi

Now, I've read both the Alice books, and while I do agree that Lewis Carroll wrote what some call "nonsense', at least he actually gave it a second meaning. There was an actual storyline beneath all the gibberish.
John, on the other hand, wrote Walrus and said- and this is a real quote- "Let the f***ers figure that one out".
Yesterday is a universal song that everyone can relate to.

The fact that you use the word "gibberish" shows you don't know what I'm talking about.

The fact that John said "Let the f***ers figure that one out" shows that he may have known that he was writing genuine nonsense. Of course he may not have: but that's common in art. The author's initial intentions often get overtaken by events. Any writer will tell you that!

I don't relate to Yesterday by the way: I find the song a little forced in its sentiment.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Sondra on April 01, 2005, 10:19:20 PM
Well here's John's take on it.


In a 1970 interview Lennon explained what inspired his song:

"We saw the movie in L.A. and the Walrus was a big capitalist that ate all the bleeping oysters. I always had the image of the Walrus in the garden and I loved it, and so I didn't ever check what the Walrus was. He's a bleeping bast**d-that's what he turns out to be. But the way it's written, everybody presumes that means something. I mean even I did. We all just presumed that because I said 'I Am The Walrus' that it means 'I Am God' or something. It's just poetry, but it became symbolic of me."

1980
PLAYBOY: "I am the Walrus."

LENNON: The first line was written on one acid trip one weekend. The second line was written on the next acid trip the next weekend, and it was filled in after I met Yoko. Part of it was putting down Hare Krishna. All these people were going on about Hare Krishna, Allen Ginsberg in particular. The reference to "Element'ry penguin" is the elementary, naive attitude of going around chanting, "Hare Krishna," or putting all your faith in any one idol. I was writing obscurely, a la Dylan, in those days

PLAYBOY: The song is very complicated, musically.

LENNON: It actually was fantastic in stereo, but you never hear it all. There was too much to get on. It was too messy a mix. One track was live BBC Radio -- Shakespeare or something -- I just fed in whatever lines came in.

PLAYBOY: What about the walrus itself?

LENNON: It's from "The Walrus and the Carpenter." "Alice in Wonderland." To me, it was a beautiful poem. It never dawned on me that Lewis Carroll was commenting on the capitalist and social system. I never went into that bit about what he really meant, like people are doing with the Beatles' work. Later, I went back and looked at it and realized that the walrus was the bad guy in the story and the carpenter was the good guy. I thought, Oh, sh*t, I picked the wrong guy. I should have said, "I am the carpenter." But that wouldn't have been the same, would it? [Singing] "I am the carpenter...."

Seems like more of an accident than anything else. The lines coming to him in acid trips, the mistake with the Lewis Carrol poem, etc. Look, I think it's a great song. I think it's innovative, but I also think that simple beautiful poetry is as valid a form of writing and ends up being as remembered as anything else. It's not easy writing that stuff you know simple as it may seem. A seemingly simple line or phrase are the kinds of things that people can most relate to. It invokes feeling. Do you think only poetry that is abstract or surreal gets remembered? Maybe in the most academic circles who are disecting and interpreting this and that. Something Lennon thought was ridiculous. Anyway, if you think the most well known/remembered poems are only ones that follow those examples, well then do what you told Mairi to do: Read.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Sondra on April 01, 2005, 10:26:50 PM
Quote from: Ydoll_Gwyn


I don't relate to Yesterday by the way: I find the song a little forced in its sentiment.

Of course you don't. Forced? It's almost as if he's speaking real life dialogue. A popular technique in writing lyrics. Some that many lyricists practice. (Roger Waters, Bernie Taupin, John Lennon)

I don't even like the song much but I CAN relate to someone singing about looking towards your past at better times.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Mairi on April 01, 2005, 10:28:09 PM
Quote
Anyway, if you think the most well known/remembered poems are only ones that are of that follow those examples, well then do what you told Mairi to do: Read.

Yes, that's true. Look at Emily Dickinson's poetry: It was simple and straightforward. Yet she is known as one of the greatest poets ever.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on April 01, 2005, 10:45:14 PM
Yes, Sandra, I know all about that: what John says about Walrus, and so on. But John Lennon often went off at the mouth without much going through his brain. You can get an idea of this yourself by reading Carroll's The Walrus & the Carpenter, and you'll see that John had no idea what that poem was on about!

It still remains that I AM THE WALRUS is as I described, even if John was not aware what was happening as he wrote it, and as it developed in the studio. As I implied, works can seem to gather a life of their own, and grow out of control of their authors!

Quote
Maybe in the most academic circles who are disecting and interpreting this and that. Something Lennon thought was ridiculous.
The point you may be missing about my dissection is that I see no meaning (though we know where bits of the lyric came from; it's just that they don't mean anything in the song).


And your bit about Yesterday:
Quote
Of course you don't. Forced? It's almost as if he's speaking real life dialogue. A popular technique in writing lyrics. Some that many lyricists practice. (Roger Waters, Bernie Taupin, John Lennon)
Real life dialogue? Yesterday?! Maybe in your life, not in mine!
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on April 01, 2005, 10:47:25 PM
Quote from: Mairi

Yes, that's true. Look at Emily Dickinson's poetry: It was simple and straightforward. Yet she is known as one of the greatest poets ever.

Good, but surely not one of the greatest ever.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Bruno on April 01, 2005, 10:49:39 PM
yer opinion that is....
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on April 01, 2005, 10:50:46 PM
Quote from: Bruno
yer opinion that is....

It's ALL opinion. Surely we know that.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Sondra on April 02, 2005, 03:13:55 AM
Quote from: Ydoll_Gwyn


And your bit about Yesterday:  Real life dialogue? Yesterday?! Maybe in your life, not in mine!

LOL! What you don't walk around talking in prose! Heh, I meant the way he's telling a simple story. All my troubles seemed so far away, I said something wrong, Why she had to go..etc. Just those sort of sentiments. Kinda like Your Song. I can see someone saying stuff like that, just not in a rhyme. But what the heck do I know really.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Herecomesyoursun on April 02, 2005, 03:27:09 PM
The sun was shining on the sea,
Shining with all his might:
He did his very best to make
The billows smooth and bright--
And this was odd, because it was
The middle of the night.


The moon was shining sulkily,
Because she thought the sun
Had got no business to be there
After the day was done--
"It's very rude of him," she said,
"To come and spoil the fun!"


The sea was wet as wet could be,
The sands were dry as dry.
You could not see a cloud, because
No cloud was in the sky:
No birds were flying overhead--
There were no birds to fly.


The Walrus and the Carpenter
Were walking close at hand;
They wept like anything to see
Such quantities of sand:
"If this were only cleared away,"
They said, "it would be grand!"


"If seven maids with seven mops
Swept it for half a year.
Do you suppose," the Walrus said,
"That they could get it clear?"
"I doubt it," said the Carpenter,
And shed a bitter tear.


"O Oysters, come and walk with us!"
The Walrus did beseech.
"A pleasant walk, a pleasant talk,
Along the briny beach:
We cannot do with more than four,
To give a hand to each."


The eldest Oyster looked at him,
But never a word he said:
The eldest Oyster winked his eye,
And shook his heavy head--
Meaning to say he did not choose
To leave the oyster-bed.


But four young Oysters hurried up,
All eager for the treat:
Their coats were brushed, their faces washed,
Their shoes were clean and neat--
And this was odd, because, you know,
They hadn't any feet.


Four other Oysters followed them,
And yet another four;
And thick and fast they came at last,
And more, and more, and more--
All hopping through the frothy waves,
And scrambling to the shore.


The Walrus and the Carpenter
Walked on a mile or so,
And then they rested on a rock
Conveniently low:
And all the little Oysters stood
And waited in a row.


"The time has come," the Walrus said,
"To talk of many things:
Of shoes--and ships--and sealing-wax--
Of cabbages--and kings--
And why the sea is boiling hot--
And whether pigs have wings."


"But wait a bit," the Oysters cried,
"Before we have our chat;
For some of us are out of breath,
And all of us are fat!"
"No hurry!" said the Carpenter.
They thanked him much for that.


"A loaf of bread," the Walrus said,
"Is what we chiefly need:
Pepper and vinegar besides
Are very good indeed--
Now if you're ready, Oysters dear,
We can begin to feed."


"But not on us!" the Oysters cried,
Turning a little blue.
"After such kindness, that would be
A dismal thing to do!"
"The night is fine," the Walrus said.
"Do you admire the view?


"It was so kind of you to come!
And you are very nice!"
The Carpenter said nothing but
"Cut us another slice:
I wish you were not quite so deaf--
I've had to ask you twice!"


"It seems a shame," the Walrus said,
"To play them such a trick,
After we've brought them out so far,
And made them trot so quick!"
The Carpenter said nothing but
"The butter's spread too thick!"


"I weep for you," the Walrus said:
"I deeply sympathize."
With sobs and tears he sorted out
Those of the largest size,
Holding his pocket-handkerchief
Before his streaming eyes.


"O Oysters," said the Carpenter,
"You've had a pleasant run!
Shall we be trotting home again?'
But answer came there none--
And this was scarcely odd, because
They'd eaten every one.


you have to admit, that is a pretty sweet poem.

However, without a doubt in my mind, Yesterday will be remembered far longer than I Am the Walrus, which will be seen as a novelty of the time period.  Yesterday is timeless.  This goes for let it Be as well.   But would anyone else agree that A Day in the Life will be their most remembered?
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Mairi on April 02, 2005, 03:29:48 PM
Yes, I agree that ADITL will probably be their most remembered. Which is a good thing since it was a dual effort on their part.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: tkitna on April 02, 2005, 07:16:38 PM
Quote from: Ydoll_Gwyn

But there's nothing especially deep or interesting or creative about these tunes. YOU might personally have them as favorites, but the tunes, lyrics, are nothing more special than in thousands of other songs.

I think 'Yesterday' and 'Let It Be' are very deep, interesting, and creative both lyrically and musically. As for the songs being personal favorites, i'm so burnt out on 'Yesterday' I really cant even explain it. 'Let It Be' is also drifting that way, BUT I recognize the genius when they are played. All i'm saying is in 500 years (yes, thats a long time), if the Beatles are remembered, 'Yesterday' and 'Let It Be' will be two of the definate songs that will be associated with them.

Quote
But Walrus, SFF (for example) are UNIQUE. Remember, the Beatles great reputation as innovators doesn't come from Let It Be, or Penny Lane, or I've Just Seen A Face.

'Penny Lane' is as UNIQUE as 'Walrus' and 'SFF' for sure. I'd challenge anybody to write a song thats compaerable to 'Penny Lane'. In regards to songs that are UNIQUE, whats the basis on this? Are we just talking about the music here and not so much the lyrics? If so, I dont see how 'Penny Lane' cant be mentioned along 'Walrus' and 'SFF'.

(Just to set the record straight, I definately prefer 'Walrus' over 'Yesterday' and 'Let It Be', but I just dont think it will hold up over time as being one of the beatles main remembered songs)
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: tkitna on April 02, 2005, 07:28:23 PM
Also, if we have to choose, i'd say Paul's Beatle masterpiece is 'Eleanor Rigby'. John's genius stretched as far back as 'I'm A Loser' for me. It's not my favorite John tune, but I can see were he (the rest also) went from there. Personaly, my favorite John tune would probably be 'Dear Prudence' or 'Cry Baby Cry', but whats that worth? Nothing? As stated many times before, its all personal, but i've only been trying to look at the big picture and i've really been trying to seperate this debate from the Paul versus John stuff that comes into play no matter what.

Speaking of songs being UNIQUE, its funny that 'Lucy In The Sky' hasent been mentioned.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Mairi on April 02, 2005, 08:06:41 PM
Lucy In The Sky! Now THERE'S a song I like! the imagery is like a beautiful dream!
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on April 02, 2005, 10:14:33 PM
One of the angles on this debate that intigues me is what some folk are claiming to be the most enduring Beatles works. Paul-penned, of course (that doesn't surprise me!). But Let It Be? Come on, there is nothing in any way special about that song that would trigger it lasting 500 years. And Yesterday - Lordy, forget it! And as for Tkitna claiming uniqueness for Penny Lane over Walrus: only my desire not to be offensive prevents me from responding. But I will say Penny Lane is a pop ditty, but Walrus is a work of art. If you can't see it, well - you can't see it!

Paul has written MUCH better stuff than this. Time is an interesting filter, often leaving the popular behind, and only allowing the worthy material through. IF (a huge IF) any of Paul-penned Beatle songs survive, it is much more likely to be sophisticated songs like For No One.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on April 02, 2005, 10:20:35 PM
Quote from: Herecomesyoursun
you have to admit, that is a pretty sweet poem.


But context is everything. Read the discussion Alice and Tweedledum & Tweedledee have after Tweedledee has recited the poem. You'll find it in Through The Looking Glass, Chapter 4.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Herecomesyoursun on April 02, 2005, 10:33:40 PM
yeahs, i have read that.  I just felt like posting the poem cos i could copy it from an earlier post.  

As it stands right now, The Beatles are most remembered for Yesterday, and All You Need is Love.  I don't see that changing in 500 years.  If you cant see the longevity and timelesness of Yesterday, I won't stress it furthur.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on April 02, 2005, 10:35:46 PM
Quote from: Herecomesyoursun


As it stands right now, The Beatles are most remembered for Yesterday, and All You Need is Love.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Herecomesyoursun on April 02, 2005, 10:56:22 PM
alright give your opinion of what theyre currently MOST well remembered for.  I think my statement is sound
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Mairi on April 02, 2005, 11:03:10 PM
I think Yesterday an All You Need is Love will be remembered because they are simple.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: on April 03, 2005, 09:38:48 AM
Like it, sick of it, whatever--"Yesterday" will probably be the song if one had to be picked, simply because it is the most covered song in history and that will stand out 500 years from now. I, like most others, don't think its the best Beatle song, but the magnitude of it will separate it from the rest.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: An Apple Beatle on April 03, 2005, 05:20:19 PM
^Pretty much sums it up for me. Melody makes for a memorable song. Simple melody. Lyrics of course, play their part but they have to bounce off melody.

Lets not forget the issue though of whether or not we have the technology still to play and watch The Beatles in 500yrs time. As this thread seems to be overlooking that a bit. I mean could it be from memory passed down generations or whether all their works will be scrutinised on old media formats forever, as they were the first most successful recording band of all known time. ;) That would have a bearing on this topic.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: tkitna on April 03, 2005, 05:26:26 PM
Quote from: Ydoll_Gwyn
One of the angles on this debate that intigues me is what some folk are claiming to be the most enduring Beatles works. Paul-penned, of course (that doesn't surprise me!).

Why doesnt this surprise you? Should it be a John penned song for it to be worthy? Are only the true Beatle fans picking John? Whats your point? My argument is 'Yesterday' and 'Let It Be' and it wouldnt matter if Ringo, George, Pete Best, etc,,,wrote them. Its the songs, not the creators.

Quote
But Let It Be? Come on, there is nothing in any way special about that song that would trigger it lasting 500 years.

Its almost like a gospel song to me and I feel something when I listen to it. Its done pretty well for itself so far, so I guess theres something special there.

Quote
And Yesterday - Lordy, forget it!

The most covered Beatle song ever, but yeah,,,lets just forget it.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on April 03, 2005, 08:30:08 PM
I think one of the problems here is that people don't appreciate how much fashions, language and culture will have changed in 500 years. None of us actually KNOW the answer to the question we're discussing. But here's some thoughts (mostly reiterated):

(1) I don't think any actual Beatle music will be played (providing it survived). If a song or two is still around, it will be listened to by very few. Maybe some will play the songs and "record" them - as a minority pleasure. (But who knows what "record" will mean in 2505?) It'll be like those groups who play medieval tunes on original instruments. They are great, but what a minority!

(2) Every age has its "popular songs". But each age writes its own - it has no need for the love songs of yesterday. Tell me a hugely popular love song from the 1990s - easy; everyone knows many. But it gets harder as you go back. 1940s? 1920s? 1880s? Do you see what I mean. That's why Yesterday, Let It Be and their ilk will not survive.

(3) The Beatles will be mentioned and written about in any history of post-WW2 western culture. As part of this, their ground-breaking creativity is going to be of interest. My view is Lennon is the original mind in the group. Out of that mind came Walrus, SFF etc. That's where they rose above their peers musically. No other group has the equivalent of Walrus and SFF, but plenty have their Yesterdays. So if anyone's interested in the group 500 years down the track, it's not going to be what so many can do (Yesterday, Let It Be) - it's going to be what they did that NO-ONE else could do!

   In other words, in 500 years it won't be a popularity thing.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Mairi on April 03, 2005, 09:12:33 PM
I don't think just any group could write a Yesterday.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on April 03, 2005, 09:18:47 PM
They do all the time! A nice tune with soppy words. The world's full of them.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Sondra on April 03, 2005, 09:38:58 PM
Seriously?? Cuz I can name TONS of songs from way back. Mainly because if you listen, they're played. In movies, commercials, radio stations, etc. They are also taught in school. And I think the fact that we can record now makes this music last longer. If they had records or cd's back then, who knows.

I'm sure you've heard of at least SOME of these. And most of them are not in the least bit complex.

1800's
Kum Ba Yah
Waltzing Matilda (aussie!)
When the Saints Go Marching In
Carry Me Back to Old Virginny
Cielito Lindo
Follow the Drinking Gourd
Dixie
Greensleeves
Hava Nagila
I've Been Working on the Railroad




1900-1920
Anchors Away
The Band Played On
A Bicycle Built For Two
By the Light of the Silvery Moon
Danny Boy
Fascination
For Me and My Gal
Give my Regards to Broadway
I Love You Truly
In the Good Ole Summertime
Let Me Call You Sweetheart
Meet Me In St. Louis
Moonlight Bay
On Top of Old Smokey
Rock-A-Bye Your Baby
East Side West Side
Take Me Out to the Ball Game
That's An Irish Lullaby
When the Saints Go Marching In
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Sondra on April 03, 2005, 09:41:40 PM
Quote from: Ydoll_Gwyn
They do all the time! A nice tune with soppy words. The world's full of them.

And how many of those tunes have had the same impact as Yesterday? Apparently it's not the same. Yesterday stands out for some reason which you cannot seem to grasp! You can't compare it to any sappy song. It's gone beyond that. Honesty, you don't see that?
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on April 03, 2005, 10:13:10 PM
Quote from: Maccalvr
Seriously?? Cuz I can name TONS of songs from way back. Mainly because if you listen, they're played. In movies, commercials, radio stations, etc. They are also taught in school. And I think the fact that we can record now makes this music last longer. If they had records or cd's back then, who knows.

I'm sure you've heard of at least SOME of these. And most of them are not in the least bit complex.


The further you go back, the harder it is.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on April 03, 2005, 10:15:37 PM
Quote from: Maccalvr

And how many of those tunes have had the same impact as Yesterday? Apparently it's not the same. Yesterday stands out for some reason which you cannot seem to grasp! You can't compare it to any sappy song. It's gone beyond that. Honesty, you don't see that?

Yesterday is pure schmaltz. THAT'S why it's been recorded so many times. It's easy to sing, the tune is simple, people will buy it. Sweet, shallow sentimentality.

But it's still schmaltz. Sappy.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on April 03, 2005, 10:17:47 PM
But this discussion is now really boring me. So I won't be replying anymore - we're all going around in circles, saying what we've already said.

However, thanks all for the discussion. I really enjoyed it till the last couple of days.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: An Apple Beatle on April 03, 2005, 10:28:08 PM
^Whatever you think Ydoll...The thing here is to think about art as a form to be remembered. 500 yrs later we can appreciate the works of Da Vinci and Michealangelo...then, sculpture and paintings was how to preserve the sentiments/emotions of the day. In this last century we have had tape/Vinyl/Photography/Film/CD etc.

I feel that throws debate about whether or not Beatle tunes will be played/remembered. History (Apart from propagands) is also basd upon facts. The facts suggest that Yesterday will be the most remembered for it's sheer Universally accepted sentiments. Most covered, radio plays etc.
We probably won't even have electricity or even be around. lol.
I think Yesterday can become a drag for Long time Beatle appreciators, as it is played so much. It's still a remarkable melody.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Sondra on April 03, 2005, 10:38:48 PM
Quote from: Ydoll_Gwyn
But this discussion is now really boring me. So I won't be replying anymore - we're all going around in circles, saying what we've already said.

However, thanks all for the discussion. I really enjoyed it till the last couple of days.

Well that's kinda harsh. Oh well then.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Wayne L. on April 07, 2005, 12:03:30 PM
You don't have to be Paul's butt boy or girl to criticize him as an artist after the breakup of the Beatles speaking as a fan because he has had mostly mediocre albums with only a few gems while he has kept his name in the spotlight for over 30 years as a former Beatle because his music has been mostly mainstream.  
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Indica on April 07, 2005, 04:00:22 PM
(http://www.petersons.com/books/images/getwise-grammar.gif)
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Mairi on April 07, 2005, 07:11:48 PM
^ROTFLMAO! :D
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on April 07, 2005, 08:57:09 PM
Gee Indica what a cheap shot. And Mairi, it looks real "I'm in the gang too" to agree with a cheap shot like that. The WORST aspect, by far, of this board, is this "ganging" up on people.

And both of YOU commit lots of grammatical mistakes. So leave out the cheap shots. People in glass houses ...
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Mairi on April 07, 2005, 09:47:56 PM
I just thought it was funny, that's all. And my grammar skills can hardly be compared to Wayne's, btw.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: lennonlemon on April 07, 2005, 11:34:41 PM
i dun like using capitals. that's where i screw up.

never been a fan of commas either.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: pc31 on April 08, 2005, 02:54:08 AM
Quote from: Ydoll_Gwyn
But this discussion is now really boring me. So I won't be replying anymore - we're all going around in circles, saying what we've already said.

However, thanks all for the discussion. I really enjoyed it till the last couple of days.
?
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on April 08, 2005, 03:48:12 AM
Uh - Police Constable No. 31 - didn't you notice it's a new angle ENTIRELY that I'm responding to?

I was responding to another gratuitous dig at Wayne.

Try and concentrate, Police Constable No. 31.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on April 08, 2005, 03:49:02 AM
Quote from: Mairi
I just thought it was funny, that's all. And my grammar skills can hardly be compared to Wayne's, btw.

I wonder what you mean by that?
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on April 08, 2005, 03:49:39 AM
Quote from: lennonlemon
i dun like using capitals. that's where i screw up.

never been a fan of commas either.

However, you do have a talent of stating the obvious!
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Bruno on April 08, 2005, 04:45:16 AM
(http://spidermine.com/Crap/thread-ugly_15.jpg)
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Indica on April 08, 2005, 09:42:51 AM
haha. I was only joking.
Good old Gwyn, thanks for putting me in my place.








































 ::)
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Mairi on April 08, 2005, 03:59:24 PM
Quote from: Ydoll_Gwyn

I wonder what you mean by that?

I meant exactly what I said.

Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: An Apple Beatle on April 08, 2005, 04:56:04 PM
Quote from: Ydoll_Gwyn
Uh - Police Constable No. 31 - didn't you notice it's a new angle ENTIRELY that I'm responding to?

I was responding to another gratuitous dig at Wayne.

Try and concentrate, Police Constable No. 31.

But it's the same thread. Worth a mention I reckon.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on April 08, 2005, 09:07:20 PM
Quote from: An_Apple_Beatle

But it's the same thread. Worth a mention I reckon.

Same thread, but DIFFERENT discussion! Duh! ;D
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on April 08, 2005, 09:13:30 PM
Quote from: Mairi

I meant exactly what I said.


Uh-oh. Silly person.

Your statement is ambiguous. And my grammar skills can hardly be compared to Wayne's, btw. could be taken to mean that

(1) Wayne's grammar is much better than yours (hardly worth comparing as you are so poor)

OR

(2) your grammar is so brilliant that it's a waste of time to put him in the same frame as you as he is so weak.

Some people would say that in modern English idiom your sentence means you're the grammar weakie, but I'm sure you don't think that ... but hey, maybe you were being humble. That's why I asked for the clarification.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Mairi on April 08, 2005, 09:20:04 PM
Yeah, I meant the second one. My grammar skills may not be comparable to that of an English scholar. They are MUCH better than Wayne's, but then again so is 90% of the populations. But hey, if you want to nit-pick, go ahead.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Frightwolf on April 08, 2005, 09:39:59 PM
Quote from: Ydoll_Gwyn
I think most of you folk posting in this thread don't quite realize how long 500 years is. In 1505 (500 years ago), there was a wealth of popular songs - as in all times. Virtually all of them are now long forgotten. Same applies to literature, all sorts of music, art. Only the very best survive. My point is that only a few Beatles works will survive if any: and they will be Lennon's, as the songs of his I gave earlier are more than "pop hits" of their day. They feel to me to have a timeless quality, which is part of their attraction.

...



Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Frightwolf on April 08, 2005, 10:01:07 PM
Quote from: Ydoll_Gwyn
One of the angles on this debate that intigues me is what some folk are claiming to be the most enduring Beatles works. Paul-penned, of course (that doesn't surprise me!). But Let It Be? Come on, there is nothing in any way special about that song that would trigger it lasting 500 years. And Yesterday - Lordy, forget it! And as for Tkitna claiming uniqueness for Penny Lane over Walrus: only my desire not to be offensive prevents me from responding. But I will say Penny Lane is a pop ditty, but Walrus is a work of art. If you can't see it, well - you can't see it!

Paul has written MUCH better stuff than this. Time is an interesting filter, often leaving the popular behind, and only allowing the worthy material through. IF (a huge IF) any of Paul-penned Beatle songs survive, it is much more likely to be sophisticated songs like For No One.

Oh please, who the heck knows about For No One besides people who REALLY know the Beatles?

Your ignorance of Let It Be and Yesterday is astounding.  Nothing special? Ignorant statement.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Frightwolf on April 08, 2005, 10:06:19 PM
Quote from: Ydoll_Gwyn
Gee Indica what a cheap shot. And Mairi, it looks real "I'm in the gang too" to agree with a cheap shot like that. The WORST aspect, by far, of this board, is this "ganging" up on people.

And both of YOU commit lots of grammatical mistakes. So leave out the cheap shots. People in glass houses ...

You deserve it, Maria -- you're partronizing, arrogant, and harsh, and need to have a taste of your own medicine.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on April 08, 2005, 10:31:10 PM
Quote from: Frightwolf

You deserve it, Maria -- you're partronizing, arrogant, and harsh, and need to have a taste of your own medicine.

They weren't having a go at me with that grammar thing! They were having a dig at Wayne. Try and follow what's happening BEFORE you post!

Quelle boofhead!
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Indica on April 08, 2005, 11:09:14 PM
I wasn't having ago* as such, more of a light joke.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: lennonlemon on April 08, 2005, 11:09:24 PM
Quote from: Ydoll_Gwyn

However, you do have a talent of stating the obvious!

trying to start something, eh?
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on April 08, 2005, 11:27:53 PM
Quote from: IndicaWalrus
I wasn't having ago* as such, more of a light joke.

At Wayne's expense - again.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: An Apple Beatle on April 08, 2005, 11:49:11 PM
Enough Already. ;D Take a break! We'll meet again. ;)
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: pc31 on April 09, 2005, 10:53:48 AM
crying again are you dolly??i can't imagine why........
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Indica on April 09, 2005, 11:55:39 AM
Quote from: Ydoll_Gwyn

At Wayne's expense - again.

Well, Wayne brings it on himself.
His style of writing is very forceful, and rather annoying.


Gwyn - are you a Journalist?...I'm sure you mentioned it before.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: on April 09, 2005, 04:12:40 PM
I still think Paul has earned his praises, good punctuation or not.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Frightwolf on April 09, 2005, 05:11:42 PM
Quote from: juniorsfarm
I still think Paul has earned his praises, good punctuation or not.

Hot damn, that was great  :D

Good posting.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Frightwolf on April 09, 2005, 05:13:24 PM
Quote from: Ydoll_Gwyn

They weren't having a go at me with that grammar thing! They were having a dig at Wayne. Try and follow what's happening BEFORE you post!

Quelle boofhead!

I love your exclamation marks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So Maria-esque!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: on April 09, 2005, 05:27:27 PM
Quote from: Frightwolf

Hot damn, that was great
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on April 09, 2005, 10:24:22 PM
Quote from: Frightwolf
Quote
from Ydoll Gwyn They weren't having a go at me with that grammar thing! They were having a dig at Wayne. Try and follow what's happening BEFORE you post!

Quelle boofhead!
I love your exclamation marks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So Maria-esque!!!!!!!

I notice that you don't bother to admit you goofed. You're so busy trying to score off me, that you don't see the huge score I'm racking up against you.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: strawb3rryfi3ldsfor3ver on April 09, 2005, 11:47:49 PM
I still can't see Yesterday beating out Hey Jude. =\ Then again, that's probably a personal bias. ^^;

Heeeeeey. On the grammar thing -- ten points to anyone who knows how to use a semi-colon. =D
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: pc31 on April 10, 2005, 02:12:13 AM
oh then it is a dominence type thing....how cro-magish....
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on April 10, 2005, 03:16:20 AM
Cro-Magnonian; however, I knew what you meant, Constable.

And look: a semi-colon in that sentence. strawb3rryfi3ldsfor3ver, I'll have my ten points please.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: on April 10, 2005, 05:27:54 AM
You know, that Paul McCartney guy is a really talented feller.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: tkitna on April 10, 2005, 09:01:10 AM
Minus 50 for Junior, 'feller' cant be tolerated.
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: pc31 on April 12, 2005, 10:22:14 AM
proper?who deems the proper?screw them.......
Title: Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
Post by: strawb3rryfi3ldsfor3ver on April 14, 2005, 10:06:34 PM
Quote from: Ydoll_Gwyn
Cro-Magnonian; however, I knew what you meant, Constable.

And look: a semi-colon in that sentence. strawb3rryfi3ldsfor3ver, I'll have my ten points please.

Have your ten points, then. ^^; Take some extra for later, whatever you want.