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Other forums => Current Affairs => Topic started by: Mean_Mr_Mustard on February 10, 2006, 05:53:18 AM

Title: Religion
Post by: Mean_Mr_Mustard on February 10, 2006, 05:53:18 AM
I am not trying to start a Debate on which religion is right or wrong, I just think it is interesting to know peoples beliefs.

I am myself am Agnostic, We can never know if there is a God or not so why worry about it? Also I dont like the idea of Faith, believing in something with no evidence.

What are your religious views, if any?  ;)
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Bobber on February 10, 2006, 09:00:00 AM
I quit on religion. Too many people have been killed (and still are) because of religion and in the name of a god. I might turn to Buddhism however. I saw a documentary by Michael Palin the other day. Buddhist monks were discussing subject from their religion, because Buddha had said not to accept blindly what he had said. There's a lot of religions that can learn something of that. It's kinda peaceful anyway.
And further: like almost everybody does, religious people take from their books (bible, koran or whatever) what suits them best personally. For example: homophobic as muslims are, they always tell that there's a lot of virgins waiting for them in heaven after they've become a martyr. They don't tell that there's also a little boy waiting for them... There's no denying, I am reading the koran at the moment. Not to become a muslim, but to try to understand and to make an opinion of my own.
As for believing in faith, believing in something with no evidence... I think there's no life if there's no faith. I believe in the inner light, I have faith that this place can be a better place. I meditate to find the peace within myself. That is my religion.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Kevin on February 10, 2006, 09:34:13 AM
I am totally godless but have no problem with people having faith. I think it's very easy being middle-class educated affluent westerners to get snooty about faith, but it seems to mean a lot to a lot of people. Maybe when you having nothing else..?

Religion is a different matter. It's played such a huge part in the human story that I can't dismiss it. We must have it for a reason and I can't see how we will get rid of it. I think humanity would be a bit poorer  without it.

But maybe it has served its day - we no longer need it to explain the world or bond us together. But personaly I find the Big Bang theory as ludicrous as any creationist story. Have a quick read of basic molecular biology. Science has had to ammend the laws of physics (sometimes outright flout them)  to accomodate the mysterious goings on of atoms. And the same is going on an attempt to explain the bigger things as well. Quarks, string theoiry, dark matter and energy have never been seen, let alone tested. Maybe there are somethings us humans will just never know.

But there is one reason why for me science will always win over religion. When presented with a basic problem for which there is no real evidence, such as "how did the universe begin?", science will say "we don't know, but here's three competing theories for you to check out."   Religion says "we don't know so it must be God."
And that's just plain silly.

But still, it plays on my mind that after everything, Newton, Einstein, Man on the Moon, Dna, global warming,The Spice Girls, the biggest concern for the human race right now is God. Still. Forty thousand years later. I don't know what that says, but it's someything big.
Amen.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Mairi on February 10, 2006, 01:01:03 PM
I'm Christian. I respect everyone's beliefs.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: somedude210 on February 11, 2006, 12:03:20 AM
i was raised as catholic *insert preist molestaion joke...sadly i've heard them all* but i've become really liberal in my beliefs, but at the same time, i use reasoning instead of belief in the divine. i respect the beliefs of others but i also wish to see a world where religion doesnt play such a big role in how society makes decisions. i dont care for what your personal beliefs are, but i would just like to see the world a better place with a society that doesnt have religious dominance as one of their top prioities in life.

...sadly it is very doubtful it will ever happen, at least in my lifetime...
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: tkitna on February 11, 2006, 01:56:21 AM
I'm a Christian!
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Sondra on February 11, 2006, 07:06:14 AM
It seems a lot of people have lost their faith. Wonder how that happened. It's sort of a reflection on our society these days. I'm not sure myself. Which is sad. I can't commit either way it seems. But I'm through saying I don't believe. Who am I to assume that?

Old joke:
Did you know there's an atheist holiday? April 1st!

"An atheist is a man who looks through a telescope and tries to explain what he can
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Mean_Mr_Mustard on February 11, 2006, 10:43:55 AM
It amazes me to find an intelligent person who fights against something which he does not at all believe exists. --Mohandas Gandhi

The thing about that is, when someone comes up with the idea that there is a God (After all you have to come up with it, if you were born and no one ever said anything about God would you believe in it?) People are going to try and prove them wrong. But it dosnt really make sense since the burden of prove lies on the person who makes the claim.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Mairi on February 11, 2006, 02:29:18 PM
Live and let live I always say. If someone wants to be an atheist, fine. If they want to believe in something, that's fine too. I have met a lot of really anti-religious people (including a close friend of mine) and it amazes me some of the things they will say. A lot of generalization goes on when it comes to religion and I don't like that.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: somedude210 on February 11, 2006, 03:28:12 PM
i think alot of the convertion to barely or no religion is in a large part due to current society. between the diehard religious people making headlines and the cases such as terry schivo and the whole evolution thing, to the mass riots in the mid-east over the cartoons on a danish newspaper. there just isnt a real respect for other religions anymore on a large scale.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Sondra on February 12, 2006, 12:04:11 AM
Quote from: Mean_Mr_Mustard
It amazes me to find an intelligent person who fights against something which he does not at all believe exists. --Mohandas Gandhi

The thing about that is, when someone comes up with the idea that there is a God (After all you have to come up with it, if you were born and no one ever said anything about God would you believe in it?) People are going to try and prove them wrong. But it dosnt really make sense since the burden of prove lies on the person who makes the claim.

You miss the point. It's not about proof, it's about faith.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Mairi on February 12, 2006, 02:43:54 AM
You ask me to prove that God exists. Well, prove to me that He doesn't exist.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: thefadedline on February 12, 2006, 12:56:35 PM
Nobody can prove 'he' exists or doesn't exist because 'he' is based on everyday things anyway. If something amazing happens it is considered a miracle to someone with faith, and just lucky to someone without.

I believe in nothing really and have no faith in any kind of higher being. But I think people who do, there is nothing wrong with it. If it takes away the fear of death and other things, because they have something to believe in, then it is fine!

I agree completely with Kevin. I think the idea of some 'thing' constructing a universe in 6-7 days, quite funny.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Indica on February 12, 2006, 02:53:12 PM
I believe there might be some force or something that may be too complex for humans to understand.
But being brought up as a Christian, I agree with the basics of Do not kill etc etc - because that's common sense isn't it.
 But the other stuff like Heaven + Adam and Eve and God being the sole creator of the world, to me, is a tad easy.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: adamzero on February 12, 2006, 06:39:51 PM
As Rumi said: As God is infinite, there are an infinite number of paths to God.  

I am a Christian largely because that was the path in which I was born and because the message of sacrifice and transcendence still rings true to me.  

But I find much in Sufism, Buddhism, Hinduism and animism that interests me and augments my Christian faith.

I guess for myself, the ultimate mistake would be to look at the overwhelming number of paths to God and not take any one.  Of course, maybe not taking a path is a path too.

I guess the whole purpose of life here is to learn how to love--unconditionally.  I think John, George, Paul and Ringo all realized this and that's one reason why we still listen to and revere their music this many years later.  

I love Dylan's music, but it's amazing how generally finger-pointing, pessimistic and hatefilled it is by comparison.  Even in his "Jesus" phase, he did alot of finger-pointing.  Where's the love, Bob?

I think John said it well: "Why are we here/surely not to live in pain and fear/why are you there/when you're everywhere/come on take your share."
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Sondra on February 12, 2006, 07:40:56 PM
Quote from: thefadedline
Nobody can prove 'he' exists or doesn't exist because 'he' is based on everyday things anyway. If something amazing happens it is considered a miracle to someone with faith, and just lucky to someone without.

I believe in nothing really and have no faith in any kind of higher being. But I think people who do, there is nothing wrong with it. If it takes away the fear of death and other things, because they have something to believe in, then it is fine!

I agree completely with Kevin. I think the idea of some 'thing' constructing a universe in 6-7 days, quite funny.

Well, if you're going to take it that literally...
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: lennonlemon on February 13, 2006, 12:45:16 AM
I don't know what to believe in really. I think it's possible there is a higher power and, if so, there are morals I need to abide by, but I don't trust organized religions anymore to tell me what these rules to living are. I think a lot of outside influences and attempts at being fashionable for possible converts have doctored the original message of these religions, so I just follow my own conscience. I don't believe in dogmas cause they don't allow change and these rigid dogmas have caused more harm than good. Whether or not there is a God shouldn't matter; we should live as good people, regardless.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: somedude210 on February 13, 2006, 01:08:51 AM
religion's, if you were to look at most of them, generally are exactly the same. there is one big "god" with other lesser ones, (in paganism, lesser gods and in christiananity the angels) and then after that you have the demi-gods (such as the classical heros or the christian saints).

its really sad to see something like the hatred between jews, christians and muslums when essentially they are all the same if not, very very similar religions all derived from the same place.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Mean_Mr_Mustard on February 13, 2006, 05:41:31 AM
Quote from: Mairi
You ask me to prove that God exists. Well, prove to me that He doesn't exist.

That was my point, The burden of proof is on the person who makes the claim. When you are born you are Atheist you dont know anything about God until someone tells you about it. Someone had to make a claim that there was a God.

I know the point of Religion is faith, I am only saying if a religious person says "Prove there isnt a God"
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Mean_Mr_Mustard on February 13, 2006, 05:43:18 AM
Quote from: somedude210
religion's, if you were to look at most of them, generally are exactly the same. there is one big "god" with other lesser ones, (in paganism, lesser gods and in christiananity the angels) and then after that you have the demi-gods (such as the classical heros or the christian saints).

its really sad to see something like the hatred between jews, christians and muslums when essentially they are all the same if not, very very similar religions all derived from the same place.

Yeah its very sad. Since infact Christianity and Islam are both derived from Judaism.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Mairi on February 13, 2006, 01:40:28 PM
What is is about this forum that always sparks religious debates?
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Bobber on February 13, 2006, 01:46:29 PM
Religion is a good subject for a debate in general. And for war.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Mairi on February 13, 2006, 03:47:39 PM
Humans are inherently evil. You can't go blaming religion for war. There ware plenty of non-religious people who make judgements, do terrible things and kill.

Besides, what about religions like Quakerism and Jainism that are 100% pacifist?
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Bobber on February 13, 2006, 03:55:01 PM
Of course there's been other reasons for war than just religious ones. But the strange thing is that most (all?) religions claim peace and understanding, and still there's been a lot of killing with religious reasons. That fact that people are pacifist, cannot prevent them from getting involved in a war, obviously because of other reasons. The people of Tibet are mostly religious buddhists with no agression towards anybody, but still the country was occupied by the Chinese. And still is.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Mairi on February 13, 2006, 04:00:29 PM
That's because we're only human. No one's perfect. Well, there was this one guy... but we killed him.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Indica on February 13, 2006, 05:21:00 PM
he was perfect - perfect fiction.
But that's just one opinion...


But I respect and sort of admire how strong faith can be seen on the forum. Maybe I was taught about in all the wrong ways.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: somedude210 on February 13, 2006, 05:46:48 PM
Quote from: Mairi
That's because we're only human. No one's perfect. Well, there was this one guy... but we killed him.

hmm, i think ill be an ass and question his perfectism:

how was he perfect? he got angered and (supposedly) made love to a hooker and impregnanted her. if thats what it takes to be perfect then most of the politicians in washington are beyond perfect....whoa, i think i just died a little inside... ;D
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Sondra on February 13, 2006, 06:25:12 PM
Again, the point is he was NOT perfect. He was human. He was one of us. He was tempted just like we all are because he WAS a man. I'm not even religious, but this is basic stuff here.

And there's no point in trying to prove he exists just as there is not point in proving that he doesn't. It's unprovable and a waste of time. You either believe you're the beginning and end of the world or you believe there's something higher than yourself. And sometimes you have doubts either way. That's all there is to it.


"If Jesus comes out of his house and is not scared by his shadow it means the next 1000 years will be full of peace and love." -South Park tv reporter.


Stan: You know, somebody once said,
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Mairi on February 13, 2006, 07:02:34 PM
True, Sandra. He was born human and died human, not like something out of Marvel comics.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Mairi on February 13, 2006, 07:05:37 PM
Speaking of which, I highly recommend the novel "Lamb" by Christopher Moore, which is an absolutely HILARIOUS book about Jesus' childhood and teen years, narrated by his best friend Biff.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: somedude210 on February 14, 2006, 03:03:42 AM
is it just me thats noticing that american government has a stronger religious backing now, which hasnt really been seen since the fundamentalist movement in the 20s? so doe that mean, in our longer list of hypocritical crap done by this government, are we slowly becoming a religious state...which we're trying to eradicate in the rest of the world?

oy, cant we all just get f***ing along?
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Mean_Mr_Mustard on February 14, 2006, 03:28:05 AM
Quote from: Mairi
Humans are inherently evil. You can't go blaming religion for war. There ware plenty of non-religious people who make judgements, do terrible things and kill.

Besides, what about religions like Quakerism and Jainism that are 100% pacifist?

That is if you think Evil exists. The Bible says Killing and rape is evil but why?

Also certain things that could be called evil maybe just part of a culture, in ancient Greece it was common for older men to have sex with young boys were they evil or was it just part of the culture? Why are all of those things above attributed to some "Evil force"

Of course I dont endorse or agree with any of the above things but not because I find them Evil.

1. Killing - I dont want to be killed, I know the pain it will cause people besides the person I kill so I dont do it (Also I have never had an urge to Kill)

2. Rape - I know how it feels do be forced to do something that you dont want to do, I also know the psycological damage it can do to the person and I dont like to cause people pain.

All I am saying is, I dont need to explanation like "That is evil dont do that or that person is evil" I do or dont do things I know how it would feel if it happened to me and also I dont like to cause people pain.

Sorry for rambling on, I just dont like the idea of "Evil" Instead of telling people "Dont do that its evil" Try to explain why not to do that.


Oh btw, wasnt the point of Jesus being sent to earth for him to die? Didnt god send him purposly to die for our sins?
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Sondra on February 14, 2006, 04:03:52 AM
It was also common at one point to buy and sell people. Was that okay because it was part of the culture? Eventually human goodness wins out against mans nature to want to have power over everything and everyone else. If you want to call it evil, fine. That's just a word and doesn't just conjur up religion.
I think you don't do those things you say you know would not feel good to you, because you know it's wrong, wrong, and terribly wrong. You know there are consequences. Whether it be religion or law, that's what keeps us civilized. Some humans need something or someone to put them in their place. If they didn't have those boundries, then who knows what you'd get. Hitler?
You can put down religion but you have to see the good in it too. It's not all what the media is telling you it is. Not every believer in God is out to convert you and tell you how to live. Most couldn't care a less what we do with our lives. And the United States if far from becoming a religious state. No matter what CNN implies.

Also, I think most people understand the reasons why not to rape and kill without it being explained to them. If they need it explained, and think it's okay otherwise, then maybe the word evil isn't too bad a description.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Mean_Mr_Mustard on February 14, 2006, 04:15:57 AM
I am just saying why blame everything on an invisible "Evil Force"

I dont not do those things because of the Consequences, I do them because I have no urge and I know how it would feel. I dont need to be scared into not doing something because it is "Evil"

I never said having sex with young boys like the Greeks did was not because of some "Evil Force" And the reason people had slaves was not because of some "Evil Force"

I was mostly talking about Children when I said the explanation thing. If you just tell your Children "DONT DO IT ITS WRONG" They wont understand why, explain why.

For instance my friends Girlfriend will just send her son for timeout when he does something wrong and yell at him. How does that help him if you dont explain why what he did was bad?

Quote
You can put down religion but you have to see the good in it too. It's not all what the media is telling you it is. Not every believer in God is out to convert you and tell you how to live. Most couldn't care a less what we do with our lives. And the United States if far from becoming a religious state. No matter what CNN implies.

I never implied any of this, I was talking about "Evil" as in some powerful evil force.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Sondra on February 14, 2006, 04:23:09 AM
Who ever said it was an evil force? It's people who have no respect for human rights. People who know the difference between good and bad and choose to do wrong anyway. People use the word evil to describe horrible acts, that's all. What better word is there for someone responsible for gassing millions of men, women and children? It has nothing to do with some evil force taking over just because you may call that person evil. To say that would take all responsibility off of the person committing the acts of crime and hatred.

And you don't think consequences keep you from doing certain things you might otherwise not thing twice about? You're conditioned not to in certain cases. Of course most people don't have the urge to kill or rape, but there are other things our society says is wrong and we abide by them because of law, religion, fear, etc.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Sondra on February 14, 2006, 04:26:18 AM
Quote from: Mean_Mr_Mustard
I am just saying why blame everything on an invisible "Evil Force"

I dont not do those things because of the Consequences, I do them because I have no urge and I know how it would feel. I dont need to be scared into not doing something because it is "Evil"

I never said having sex with young boys like the Greeks did was not because of some "Evil Force" And the reason people had slaves was not because of some "Evil Force"

I was mostly talking about Children when I said the explanation thing. If you just tell your Children "DONT DO IT ITS WRONG" They wont understand why, explain why.

For instance my friends Girlfriend will just send her son for timeout when he does something wrong and yell at him. How does that help him if you dont explain why what he did was bad?



I never implied any of this, I was talking about "Evil" as in some powerful evil force.

I'm speaking in general of the way people seem to be feeling these days. Or are being made to feel. I hear it all the time. People regurgitating what the talking heads say on cable. I shouldn't have used 'you.' I meant a general you. Meaning myself at times too.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Mean_Mr_Mustard on February 14, 2006, 04:28:13 AM
Yes, for example as I said I dont kill or rape, But I do not wear my seatbelt (against the law) because I know its only a way for them to get money. Poor example but I believe I can see through a bullsh*t law or what society tells me is right and wrong. I make up my own mind I dont just say "Oh no thats wrong better not do it" I ask myself why is this wrong and what could they gain from telling me this is wrong?

I know what you are saying though. I was soley talking about Evil as an "Evil Force" How extremly Religious people think of it.

I am sorry I have all these things floating around in my head but I am not very good at organizing them and writing them down.  :P
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Sondra on February 14, 2006, 04:41:55 AM
It's better to question than to be a sheep blindly following the crowd right off the cliff. People who can't argue and debate are unwilling to see any other side to things. I think that's unhealthy. I mean, who can be that certain about anything? A couple of people in my family are like that. It's like they are SO sure about everything, that they won't even bother listening to a differing point of view. I would never tell them I wasn't sure if God existed. I'd never hear the end of it. They still preach at me for voting for Kerry!
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Mean_Mr_Mustard on February 14, 2006, 04:47:32 AM
Quote from: Maccalvr
It's better to question than to be a sheep blindly following the crowd right off the cliff. People who can't argue and debate are unwilling to see any other side to things. I think that's unhealthy. I mean, who can be that certain about anything? A couple of people in my family are like that. It's like they are SO sure about everything, that they won't even bother listening to a differing point of view. I would never tell them I wasn't sure if God existed. I'd never hear the end of it. They still preach at me for voting for Kerry!

Yeah completly agree, Never take anything for granted question everything. Included yourself which I have started to after getting into Krishnamurti. Its interest to examine every little thing I do and then ask "Why do I do that?"  ;D

I am trying to even myself out on Social issues, be in the middle on everything. I may have my opinion of course but getting to hung up on it, and only socializing with people who have the same opinion makes it too hard to understand the other side of the issue. People need to realize that deep down we are all the same and have the same pain and fears, We are all scared of each other because we think we are so different.

Reminds me of the JL song Isolation. Everyone feels alone and is afraid of everyone else.  :(

Thats why I dont like things that divide is and tell us we are all different, it just makes people more scared.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Mean_Mr_Mustard on February 14, 2006, 04:56:40 AM
I am sorry I am rambling on a lot now (or opening up) But basically I spend my whole day, my whole life thinking about how we can change the world and make it better. How everything is f***ed up and is makes me angry. I am 18 and I live with my mother and brother. I have never had a Job and my life and my mom is hung up on me getting one and getting on with my life. But I dont want that life, I dont want to live in this f***ed up place I want to try and change it, I dont want to get a job get money buy a house and work at a bullsh*t job my whole life. Worrying about Trivial bullsh*t like "I had a bad day at work today" I am too worried about people living homeless on the streets, people dying of aids and other diseases and people acting like its not happening or saying "There just lazy"

Sorry for rambling. Another thing that erks me though is Animal Rights people, I mean its fine to love and care about animals but look how passionate they are. There are humans that dont have homes and are dying in cruel ways. Should we not take care of them first?
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joost on February 14, 2006, 10:26:42 AM
I believe in a higher power but I dislike organized religion. I think most religions are too focussed on senseless rituals and are mostly about people wanting to control other people. Belief in God is a pure thing, organized religion is a human invention. You can read every religious book that has ever been written, but you're still as clueless as a new born baby because they all contain theories and ideas but no facts or certainties.

I think that way that Jesus Christ is usually portrayed is a nice, small example of what religion is really about. If you see a painting or a statue of Jesus Christ he's usually a blue-eyed arian, while it's pretty clear that that's not how he looked since he came from what is now Israel. Which means that the catholic church really prefers old human-made traditions over the obvious truth. Which is a safe thing to do because that way you don't have to be open minded, you can never be wrong and you never have to change your mind.

I personally think that being a good human being is about treating everyone like you want to be treated yourself and having respect for all life and not about reading certain books, going to church, saying prayers (even though I have nothing against those things) and certainly not about hating people for their religion, interests or sexuals preferences.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Kevin on February 15, 2006, 12:33:16 PM
Quote from: Mairi
You ask me to prove that God exists. Well, prove to me that He doesn't exist.

No no no. It's not that easy. I can't prove the non-existance of faires, bigfoot, goblins or vampires. Religious people are the ones saying that there is some higher intelligence involved in our lives. Burden of proof is on you guys I'm afraid.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Kevin on February 15, 2006, 12:48:34 PM
Quote from: Biscuit_Power
I believe in a higher power but I dislike organized religion. I think most religions are too focussed on senseless rituals and are mostly about people wanting to control other people.
I don't think that's  fair. Our lives are full of "senseless ritual". Check out a wedding, or the opening of parliament, a graduation, a birthday party, the olympics or any organised event. Rituals are part of our lives, religious or not. Humans love ritual. Religion's just playing to the crowd, like everything else.
Religion does produce control-freaks, but again that's humanity, not religion. Religious people like gathering together and sharing, just like we do about the Beatles. And we need guidance and a little help every now and then. Dimitry is our very own Beatle-pope, and The End is a our bishop. .

I am godless. But it must be nice (and good for you) to gather with your neighbours and have a prayer and a good old communal sing-song (and that is as far as the vast magority of religious people go) Remember people fight and riot over poltics and sport and music. I'm happy to believe that most religious people are good decent people, and that religion makes them better people, and that religion is important for bonding groups together.
These days everyone goes on about not knowing their neighbours, of the general loss of respect in society, of people no longer having the moral boundaries our parents generation had. All things that religion used to perform in our society.
Maybe the two are not disconnected.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joost on February 15, 2006, 02:11:30 PM
(double post)
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joost on February 15, 2006, 02:11:35 PM
Quote from: kevin_b

No no no. It's not that easy. I can't prove the non-existance of faires, bigfoot, goblins or vampires. Religious people are the ones saying that there is some higher intelligence involved in our lives. Burden of proof is on you guys I'm afraid.

I agree with Mairi here. My belief in a higher power that created everything isn't based on a gut feeling but on logic. I accept the Big Bang theory, but I just don't believe that the incredibly complex living beings that we are with our incredibly complex minds and the incredibly complex world that we live in just formed themselves out of some space dust. I just don't buy that. I just don't believe that all that happened without the help of a creator. To me that sounds just as unlikely as the concept of a God sounds to atheists.

I think I'm as sceptical as most atheists, I just look at it from a different point of view.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joost on February 15, 2006, 02:14:43 PM
Quote from: kevin_b
I don't think that's  fair. Our lives are full of "senseless ritual". Check out a wedding, or the opening of parliament, a graduation, a birthday party, the olympics or any organised event.

That's different, because no one will tell you you're living the wrong way or that you're going to hell if you don't believe in marriage or the olympics.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Kevin on February 15, 2006, 02:25:37 PM
Quote from: Biscuit_Power

That's different, because no one will tell you you're living the wrong way or that you're going to hell if you don't believe in marriage or the olympics.

I wasn't trying to say religion is the same as marriage etc, just that the need for apparently "senseless"  ritual is a human thing, not a religious thing.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Kevin on February 15, 2006, 02:36:58 PM
Quote from: Biscuit_Power

 I accept the Big Bang theory, but I just don't believe that the incredibly complex living beings that we are with our incredibly complex minds and the incredibly complex world that we live in just formed themselves out of some space dust. I just don't buy that. I just don't believe that all that happened without the help of a creator. To me that sounds just as unlikely as the concept of a God sounds to atheists.

.

I totally agree with you there. Even Prof Stephen Hawkins, the arch scientist, said something like "if there is no god, then why does the universe bother to exist?"
But, I can't buy the God thing either. So I've gone for the line of least resistance and am favouring an explanation that my stupid ape brain has a chance of grasping. And that is that there was no moment of creation. The universe has always been here, expanding and retracting, but constant. I know that based on our own experience everything has to have a beginning (and an end), and it is suspending belief to think that something can just always be. But I found that little problem easier to get round than gods and big bangs.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Kevin on February 15, 2006, 02:51:27 PM
Quote from: Biscuit_Power

I agree with Mairi here. My belief in a higher power that created everything isn't based on a gut feeling but on logic. .

I have to say though that deducing that because science can't explain the beginnining of the universe that that means a "higher intelligence" did it doesn't seem remarkably logical to me.
A logical answer would be "I don't know."
But us stupid humans always have to have an answer (whether it be science or religion.)  :)

ps - my doubts about science only extend to the creation bit. I'm with it pretty much 100% on everything else.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Mairi on February 15, 2006, 08:50:44 PM
Quote from: Biscuit_Power

That's different, because no one will tell you you're living the wrong way or that you're going to hell if you don't believe in marriage or the olympics.

In life, and particularly religion, it is usually the idiots who are the loudest. Just because there are a bunch of loud idiots out there making the rest of us look bad, it does NOT mean that everyone shares their views about same sex marriage, etc. In fact the idiots are usually not in the majority. Just to clarify.



Title: Re: Religion
Post by: adamzero on February 15, 2006, 09:40:35 PM
The real question is not if God exists.  But if I exist now.  And will continue to exist.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: An Apple Beatle on February 15, 2006, 11:00:03 PM
Quote from: adamzero
The real question is not if God exists.  But if I exist now.  And will continue to exist.

Yeah? But that's just selfish thinking. lol.....joking. It's a valid point ;D
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: somedude210 on February 15, 2006, 11:12:43 PM
Quote from: adamzero
The real question is not if God exists.  But if I exist now.  And will continue to exist.

ah, its all relative, its like are we really moving even when we stand still?  :P

so are we all dreaming or do we truely exist? its amazing to think of our life as possibly a dream and none of us actually exist. its all in our minds. its a weird thing that we are in this one spec of time and will never know what really happened before us and wont know what happens after we die.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: adamzero on February 15, 2006, 11:19:43 PM
I think most religion is selfish, or at least self-interested, both in learning why we're here and what we're supposed to be doing.   I think the moment of transcendence comes when you realize that the purpose of the universe is not you--it moves on "within you and without you" (great line, one of the beatles best), but that you are somehow connected to that larger something.

Don't worry about believing in God if that is a barrier to your intellect.  Believe in yourself and the authenticity of your own experience and you will be brought to God.  That is, your true self, not the self foisted upon you by illusion (TV, pop culture, parents, etc.).  I think this is the truly subversive message of the Beatles.  They used pop culture to preach transcendence of inauthentic Levittown selves.  Find your true self and you move beyond the concept of self.  I think this is what John Lennon experienced in a song "given" to him such as "Across the Universe" or Paul in "Let it Be."  Both are highly spiritually charged songs.  A connection happens.  The singer becomes the song and ceases to be a limited finite self.

I think that's one of the main reasons the Beatles are so important.  They cut through to something forgotten, authentic, that the world desperately needs now.  That's why religion comes up on this board and why the Beatles are far more important than bands like the Stones who playact magic and satanism, but do not cut through to authentic spiritual experience (at least not every often).  

The Beatles each gave up part of themselves to become Beatles.  In the post-Beatle period they floundered, but once they had lost the sacrifice of themselves, they filled up the missing parts of their identity with inauthentic show-biz crutches (with the exception of POB and ATMP) where enough of the Beatle unity carried over.  
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Sondra on February 15, 2006, 11:47:05 PM
Quote from: kevin_b

No no no. It's not that easy. I can't prove the non-existance of faires, bigfoot, goblins or vampires. Religious people are the ones saying that there is some higher intelligence involved in our lives. Burden of proof is on you guys I'm afraid.

And non-religous people are saying that their isn't. So what's the difference. And I think you can pretty much prove the non-existence of vampires. I mean, that's like saying there may be unicorns and elves wandering around somewhere. I mean, we know there are no dragons and a Santa Clause either right? I mean, that's called being an adult.

Anyway, I think the burden of proof lies with whoever is trying to convince the other that they are right. You can't very well prove he doesn't exist can you? Just as you can't prove that he does. It's really pointless, but if one is trying to convince the other, then they should have some proof. Or at least a good theory.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Sondra on February 15, 2006, 11:54:42 PM
Quote from: somedude210

ah, its all relative, its like are we really moving even when we stand still?  :P

so are we all dreaming or do we truely exist? its amazing to think of our life as possibly a dream and none of us actually exist. its all in our minds. its a weird thing that we are in this one spec of time and will never know what really happened before us and wont know what happens after we die.

Now we're getting into philosophy. The most worthless degree you can obtain in college because really, what's the point? ;) It's the whole chicken and the egg thing. Why waist time on such trivialities. You are here and whether it's a dream or not, you still have to get up every morning and go to work and pay your bills. Unless you're Paris Hilton. So maybe she doesn't exist and is just a figment of our bored, reality tv obsessed imaginations.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: somedude210 on February 16, 2006, 01:43:00 AM
or a guy's "i wish my wife was more into stuff like her" fantasy(angel5)
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: tkitna on February 16, 2006, 01:59:23 AM
This thread will be 90 pages long before you know it!
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Beatle Ed on February 16, 2006, 06:04:31 AM
lol @ Tk, yeah and about as pointless at the end of the thread than it was at the beginning.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Kevin on February 16, 2006, 09:03:49 AM
Quote from: Maccalvr

. And I think you can pretty much prove the non-existence of vampires.

How? (and remember, proof please, not hearsay and assumption.)
Because, by your reasoning, if you can't that proves they do.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: An Apple Beatle on February 16, 2006, 12:44:08 PM
This'll do me.......


Desiderata

Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
and remember what peace there may be in silence.
As far as possible without surrender
be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even the dull and the ignorant;
they too have their story.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons,
they are vexations to the spirit.
If you compare yourself with others,
you may become vain and bitter;
for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.
Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.


Keep interested in your own career, however humble;
it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.
Exercise caution in your business affairs;
for the world is full of trickery.
But let this not blind you to what virtue there is;
many persons strive for high ideals;
and everywhere life is full of heroism.


Be yourself.
Especially, do not feign affection.
Neither be cynical about love;
for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment
it is as perennial as the grass.


Take kindly the counsel of the years,
gracefully surrendering the things of youth.
Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune.
But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings.
Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.
Beyond a wholesome discipline,
be gentle with yourself.


You are a child of the universe,
no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.


Therefore be at peace with God,
whatever you conceive Him to be,
and whatever your labors and aspirations,
in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.


With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams,
it is still a beautiful world.
Be cheerful.
Strive to be happy.


Max Ehrmann, Desiderata, Copyright 1952
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Mean_Mr_Mustard on February 16, 2006, 01:21:05 PM
Quote from: kevin_b

I have to say though that deducing that because science can't explain the beginnining of the universe that that means a "higher intelligence" did it doesn't seem remarkably logical to me.
A logical answer would be "I don't know."
But us stupid humans always have to have an answer (whether it be science or religion.)  :)

ps - my doubts about science only extend to the creation bit. I'm with it pretty much 100% on everything else.

Of course we worry about something we probably will never know, And something that isnt so important anyways.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Kevin on February 16, 2006, 01:32:25 PM
Quote from: Mean_Mr_Mustard

Of course we worry about something we probably will never know, And something that isnt so important anyways.

But don't you wanna know?
I'm 50 in 3 years, and maybe mortality and the like is becoming more of an issue for me now. I would kind of like to know why I was here. If it is just sex and death, then fair enough. I've done my bit for the species.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Mairi on February 16, 2006, 03:58:07 PM
I think that the reason we were put on this earth is to love and be loved (not just in the romantic sense). That's my goal in life, to love as many people as possible and to do things that will make people want to love me.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Sondra on February 16, 2006, 09:40:29 PM
Quote from: kevin_b

How? (and remember, proof please, not hearsay and assumption.)
Because, by your reasoning, if you can't that proves they do.

Because we know it was a made up character by some imaginative writer who never claimed it was based on anything real. As far as i know anyway. Just like I don't think Mary Poppins is a real person who can actually fly. And when did I ever say if you can't prove something then it does exist? I said you can't say one way or the other with certainty. Isn't that just common sense? Not just 'my reasoning?"

BTW, I never said I believed in God. I wouldn't assume a person does just because they don't happen to buy into the same philosophy as to why he doesn't.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: number14 on February 17, 2006, 12:12:39 AM
I am a christian and also a mormon , I am curious to see what you guys think of Mormons
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: tkitna on February 17, 2006, 12:30:40 AM
Quote from: number14
I am a christian and also a mormon , I am curious to see what you guys think of Mormons

I only know of three mormons and thats Steve Young, Danny Ainge, and Shawn Bradley and they were all good athletes.

Title: Re: Religion
Post by: somedude210 on February 17, 2006, 03:01:17 AM
funny how so many worship some guy that is said to be the son of some "God", so could we come up with a religion based on Lennon even though he was real and his actions are recorded and his life is real. so why do millions not worship the ground he walked on, but those same million are still willing to worship the ground of some random guy who lived 2032 years ago and was basically the same martyr as those like Ghandi? wheres the religions for them? wheres the glory in what they did? wheres the worshipping for those that were known to be ordinary people doing extraordinary things? just one of those things that will never be figured out i guess.

go humanist and try and improve the world as much as you can in your short lifespan
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Mean_Mr_Mustard on February 17, 2006, 06:26:35 AM
Quote from: kevin_b

But don't you wanna know?
I'm 50 in 3 years, and maybe mortality and the like is becoming more of an issue for me now. I would kind of like to know why I was here. If it is just sex and death, then fair enough. I've done my bit for the species.


To me its not very important, either way if I know or dont know, I am still here.

About Mormons I talked to them for a while for fun (was never going to convert) They are really nice the ones I met. But when they started to realize I was never going to convert they started to get kind of jerky (some of them) which made me think their niceness was just an act to get me to convert. (Trying to be nice all the time basically saying "Look how nice we are, you should convert.) I am sorry nobody is happy about everything all the time.  ;D
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Kevin on February 17, 2006, 09:36:00 AM
Quote from: Maccalvr

Because we know it was a made up character by some imaginative writer who never claimed it was based on anything real. As far as i know anyway. Just like I don't think Mary Poppins is a real person who can actually fly. And when did I ever say if you can't prove something then it does exist? I said you can't say one way or the other with certainty. Isn't that just common sense? Not just 'my reasoning?"

 

Hello. Sorry if I misread you. It's just that the old "you can't prove it's not true so it is" line is dragged out so many times. Believers in ghosts and UFO's use the same line.
Bram Stoker didn't make up vampires - there are accounts of them in almost every culture going back thousands of years. Many rural populations still have a strong belief in them. People claim to have been them, seen them etc.
Yet we, as rational, logical people, know they don't exist, even though no-one can conclusively prove they don't.
I don't expect religious people to prove God's existance. Just don't used that warped line of logic.
Sorry if I go on but this is a topic dear to my heart, and I don't often get a chance to vent. Hope it's all taken in good spirit. (I'm actually quite pro-religion you know.)
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Kevin on February 17, 2006, 09:45:35 AM
Quote from: somedude210
funny how so many worship some guy that is said to be the son of some "God", so could we come up with a religion based on Lennon even though he was real and his actions are recorded and his life is real. so why do millions not worship the ground he walked on, ? just one of those things that will never be figured out i guess.


Ummm. I can only guess that it's because Lennon was a muscian and Ghandhi a politician. Dieification normally requires something a bit special - walking on water, speaking to God, the odd miracle, rising from the dead...that sort of thing. I don't think making a handful of great albums and lying in bed for a week qualifies.
Though Elvis is getting close.  :)
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Bobber on February 17, 2006, 09:47:25 AM
Quote from: An_Apple_Beatle
This'll do me.......


Desiderata


I've read that before, it said it was found in a church in Boston round 1563 or so. Whatever, it resembles pretty much what it's about imo.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joost on February 17, 2006, 03:51:18 PM
Quote from: kevin_b
Believers in ghosts and UFO's use the same line.

That's actually also one of the reasons why I believe in God - I really believe in ghosts, which automatically means that I believe that souls can excist without a body.

And, about the soul without the body thing: your molecules are constantly being renewed, and it takes seven years for all the moleclules in your body to be renewed. So you don't have a single molecule in your body that was already there seven years ago. But your soul's still here. Which means that in a way, your soul has already survived your body.  ;D
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Mairi on February 17, 2006, 04:04:13 PM
Quote from: somedude210
funny how so many worship some guy that is said to be the son of some "God", so could we come up with a religion based on Lennon even though he was real and his actions are recorded and his life is real. so why do millions not worship the ground he walked on, but those same million are still willing to worship the ground of some random guy who lived 2032 years ago and was basically the same martyr as those like Ghandi? wheres the religions for them? wheres the glory in what they did? wheres the worshipping for those that were known to be ordinary people doing extraordinary things? just one of those things that will never be figured out i guess.

Little things like walking on water, healing the sick, turning water into wine, etc... those might be the clinchers.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Kevin on February 17, 2006, 04:19:22 PM
^ Curse you Biscuitpower for turning my science against me.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Indica on February 17, 2006, 05:52:07 PM
Quote from: Mairi

Little things like walking on water, healing the sick, turning water into wine, etc... those might be the clinchers.

That's the sort of stuff I just can't seem to agree with :-/
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Kevin on February 17, 2006, 05:53:31 PM
Quote from: IndicaWalrus

That's the sort of stuff I just can't seem to agree with :-/

The damn thing is we can't prove he didn't.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Indica on February 17, 2006, 05:55:00 PM
haha, I know.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: somedude210 on February 17, 2006, 07:55:14 PM
Quote from: Mairi

Little things like walking on water, healing the sick, turning water into wine, etc... those might be the clinchers.

ya but all that was documented 300 years his death. which would mean that all the witnesses would be 6 feet under and the writers weren't even born. those "miracles" could solely be just a story. its just one of those things that you want so badly to believe but in the end, its just a really good and creative story...that has started countless wars.

eh, ive just lost the faith in religion that others have. i dont understand those that live a deeply religious lifestyle and they don't understand why i dont mind "burning in hell". you just have to live for what you have, let someone else worry about what to do in 50 years when you die
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Mairi on February 17, 2006, 08:49:15 PM
I'm not saying that we should follow religion blindly, (far from it) but when it comes down to it, religion is a personal thing and you shouldn't judge people or look down on them for what they believe in. Both sides can tend to have a holier-than-thou attitude ("You don't believe in God? You heathen! You'll burn in hell!" vs. "You believe in God? Haha! You moron! You'll just be worm food after you die!") In the end, it's all about love, and as long as nobody's getting hurt, what gives you the right to critisize other's beliefs? I don't believe everything I read in the bible (Adam and Eve, in my opinion, is most likely a parable that got confused for fact after being translated) but if someone else wants to... hey, that's their choice.

In any case, it's like Sandra said. It's not about proof. It's about faith. if I never find a human being who loves me, it won't matter becaus I know that Jesus loves me. And why would you want to take that away from someone? So you can feel better about yourself?

If you ask me, the world hasn't progressed much since Jesus died. Sure, we have cell phones and iPods and laptops, but we still lie, cheat and steal. You think that religion plays too much of a part in politics, but the fact is that religion plays a huge part in life for many people. Deal with it. Chastising someone for believing in God is as stupid as chastising someone because they DON'T believe in God.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: somedude210 on February 18, 2006, 02:22:23 AM
im not upset by the fact that politicans believe in it, its the fact that they are using it as perfect justification for doing something, and then fail to realize that there are plenty of others that dont believe they have the right to simply because its justified religiously. Like the Terry Schivo case, seriously how was that something political. she was in a coma and wasnt improving and her husband had right of attorney and it became a huge political and religous thing.

...im sorry, did i miss something? are we so pathetic and needy that we must pry into someone's life, who we didnt know, and try to force them to put the feeding tube back in by saying that its God's will.

why do we care about that more then say...declaring wars based solely on religious disagreements or not caring that millions are dying in Africa (which is as christian as the US) and its like we dont care, but not when some random comatose person dies?

society needs to get its prioities straight, because religion shouldnt stop us from stopping genocide or mass starvation.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Mairi on February 18, 2006, 04:28:51 AM
You're being rather ethnocentric, don't you think? Last time I checked, politics in the UK and Canada had little to do with religion. I don't know enough about world politics to say, but I'm pretty sure they're not as heavily into it as the US.
also, I would also like to add that I noticed the conservative Christians are more into following the Old Testament, while liberal ones such as myself are more heavily influenced by the New Testament. Just an observation.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Kevin on February 18, 2006, 10:14:54 AM
Quote from: Mairi
You're being rather ethnocentric, don't you think? Last time I checked, politics in the UK and Canada had little to do with religion.

The church is dead and buried in the UK, except in parts of Scotland and Ireland where they still fight over it.
For us more harmonious people the church is nothing more than dodgy effiminate vicars riding motorbikes to show the kids how groovy they are. i don't know a single person who attends church.
But as I've said before, the biggest social concerns in Britain at the moment are the breakdown of social and family values and the lack of respect for people and property. Their is a general feeling of morale decline.
I doubt if the two things are disconnected.

I think our society would be infinately better off if we all went to church on Sundays, met our neighbours, sang together and prayed for a common good together. I don't need to believe in God to see the benefits of that.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: somedude210 on February 18, 2006, 09:15:13 PM
Quote from: Mairi
You're being rather ethnocentric, don't you think? Last time I checked, politics in the UK and Canada had little to do with religion. I don't know enough about world politics to say, but I'm pretty sure they're not as heavily into it as the US.
also, I would also like to add that I noticed the conservative Christians are more into following the Old Testament, while liberal ones such as myself are more heavily influenced by the New Testament. Just an observation.

sorry, i personally dont know much about politics and religion outside the US except for the ones that Commander Monkey-Nuts is whining about because they actually do have a reasonably powerful religious backing in their governments. most of those are in the middle east and africa.

i dunno, it seems like America is the home of christian nut-jobs as much as the middle east is the home of isamic nut-jobs. seriously, the civil war hasnt really ended, it really is like two different countries here. someone from the north or someone thats catholic   are really shunned if you go south. in the "bible belt" (between the Atlantic and Texas, as far north as West Virginia) you cant say one word denoucing chirisianity (catholicism yes, other chrisitian religions no) without being hung.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: adamzero on February 18, 2006, 09:57:57 PM
Whut ya'll gum-flappin' 'bout the South, boy?!   You bitter wawtch whut you'se seyin' er I'll sic the ghost of Ronnie Van Zant on you!
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Mean_Mr_Mustard on February 18, 2006, 10:53:14 PM
Instead of asking for proof ask for evidence, proof can me anything to anyone "OMG Mother Mary is on my Toast GOD IS REAL" :p

Sandra, you say you know that Vampires were made up by a guy that wrote a book.. How do you know the Bible wasnt just someone way back in time writing a history book aswell?

I wouldnt worship someone just because they walked on water, Id probably give them a high five or something though. Still I would prefer going in a boat much fast probably. Unless he could drive a car on the water that would be sweet.

Sorry I am a little high.. :p
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Mean_Mr_Mustard on February 18, 2006, 11:00:19 PM
Quote from: somedude210
im not upset by the fact that politicans believe in it, its the fact that they are using it as perfect justification for doing something, and then fail to realize that there are plenty of others that dont believe they have the right to simply because its justified religiously. Like the Terry Schivo case, seriously how was that something political. she was in a coma and wasnt improving and her husband had right of attorney and it became a huge political and religous thing.

...im sorry, did i miss something? are we so pathetic and needy that we must pry into someone's life, who we didnt know, and try to force them to put the feeding tube back in by saying that its God's will.

why do we care about that more then say...declaring wars based solely on religious disagreements or not caring that millions are dying in Africa (which is as christian as the US) and its like we dont care, but not when some random comatose person dies?

society needs to get its prioities straight, because religion shouldnt stop us from stopping genocide or mass starvation.

Or better yet realize there are millions of americans in poverty that need help. I dont disagree with helping Africans and such, but I think we should help everyone here first before we start helping the rest of the world.

I dont mean helping in the Imperialst "Take over your government and install a new one" way.. I mean helping as in sending aid and medicine and such.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: pc31 on February 19, 2006, 12:03:32 AM
oops i think i made a wrong turn in albakerky (http://img.tfd.com/thumb/0/0c/Bugsbunny_rabbit_transit.jpg)
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: adamzero on February 19, 2006, 10:04:39 PM
One of the problems we face is how to translate an archaic mythology, the roots of which are over 4000 years old, into something we can understand now.

I think that's what the Beatles were doing in their music--helping to create a new mythology to help people identify with and love God as well as their fellow humankind.  

All You Need is Love, Let it Be, Across the Universe, A Day in the Life, Within You, Without You--all these songs are spiritual in nature.  I don't think it's an accident that this topic comes up on the forum.  It's completely natural.  We are trying to understand and explicate the mythology that the Beatles built out of their experience.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: on February 19, 2006, 10:56:44 PM
It's all "Man's Search for Meaning". People don't want to think they're here and then dust to dust. Whether or not there is life after death, it doesn't matter. If God and religion give people the strength to get through another day, its a wonderful thing, and if it's a hoax, it's still a wonderful thing because it helped an incredible amount of people, mere mortals, get through another day, and that's all we can really ask for. I have an absolute disdain for organized religion, but I consider myself to be very spiritual. And whether it's Jehovah, Jesus, Buddah, Gouda, whatever, it doesn't matter. The bible is parables about sin. Written and re-written a thousand times. Great book though I won't base my life on it. Enough. Sorry.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: adamzero on February 20, 2006, 02:39:20 AM
Quote from: juniorsfarm
And whether it's Jehovah, Jesus, Buddah, Gouda, whatever, it doesn't matter.

LOL I vote for Gouda!  As long as it's a little bit sharp.

Title: Re: Religion
Post by: on February 20, 2006, 02:50:43 AM
Our Gouda Adam will have no pre-disposed notion and will take whatever cracker you are or choose to be, and will accept it unconditionally. I fine metaphysical spread, if you will.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joost on February 20, 2006, 07:32:53 AM
Quote from: kevin_b
^ Curse you Biscuitpower for turning my science against me.

Sorry dude.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: The Swine on March 24, 2010, 09:13:05 AM
john lennons point of the rc church vanishing is almost there. rc=rapes children?
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Mairi on March 24, 2010, 06:57:17 PM
Yes, because the abuse of children is just SO hilarious.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: The Swine on March 25, 2010, 09:36:51 AM
Yes, because the abuse of children is just SO hilarious.

you think so? theres lots of cases in the western world
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Mairi on March 25, 2010, 02:51:47 PM
I was being sarcastic.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: The Swine on March 25, 2010, 04:40:43 PM
im sorry that the rc church rears its ugly head
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Bobber on March 25, 2010, 07:20:55 PM
Do you think the pope should reseign?
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: sgt. peppie on March 26, 2010, 03:12:09 AM
Is this discussion centered around the belief of God in general, or Christianity?
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joost on March 26, 2010, 10:07:26 AM
Is this discussion centered around the belief of God in general, or Christianity?

Belief in God and religion are two different things. One is a gut feeling, the other is culturally determined learned behavior.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Kevin on March 26, 2010, 10:45:57 AM
Belief in God and religion are two different things. One is a gut feeling, the other is culturally determined learned behavior.

Agree completely. I'm a card carrying aethiest but can see many positive things in religion. It is obviously an evolutionary tool that bonds societies together and makes them feel special. This of course has negative consequences as well. Believing your group to be "special or "chosen" has given many societies an excuse for some terrible things. But science and politics gave Hitler, Stalin. Mao and Pol Pot excuses to exterminate millions, so humans will twist anything. No one talks down evolution or science because it gave Hitler a rationale for the concentration camps.
Without religion we might well still be squatting in caves throwing rocks at bears. Whether that's a better life than the one we lead now is the rub.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: sgt. peppie on March 31, 2010, 01:24:57 AM
I've got a question for Christians. How do you know what Jesus looks like? I'm honestly curious.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joost on March 31, 2010, 06:57:46 AM
I've got a question for Christians. How do you know what Jesus looks like? I'm honestly curious.


Good question. I think it's safe to say that He wasn't the tall, blue-eyed guy that you often see depicted. I think it's actually a bit sacriligious (and racist) that He's usually being depicted as an aryan because it's highly unlikely that He was. You just wouldn't have found too many aryans in Palestine 2000 years ago.

Based on historical descriptions, scientists came to the conclusion that it's more likely that He looked something like this:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7DrbjQibBks/SfCtRRYWaGI/AAAAAAAAASI/SbHjv8_d0VQ/s400/Jesus+the+real+look.jpg)
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Kevin on March 31, 2010, 10:27:19 AM
Good question. I think it's safe to say that He wasn't the tall, blue-eyed guy that you often see depicted. I think it's actually a bit sacriligious (and racist) that He's usually being depicted as an aryan because it's highly unlikely that He was. You just wouldn't have found too many aryans in Palestine 2000 years ago.

Based on historical descriptions, scientists came to the conclusion that it's more likely that He looked something like this:
([url]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7DrbjQibBks/SfCtRRYWaGI/AAAAAAAAASI/SbHjv8_d0VQ/s400/Jesus+the+real+look.jpg[/url])


Rascist but probably necessary. In an a less enlightened age when contact with strangers, let alone strange looking foreigners was almost non existant, convincing ordinary folk that this was the son of The Almighty God might have been a tad hard. I think even now many people would have difficulty accepting that Jesus looks no different to the local kebab shop man.

But religious people don't have a monopoly on this kind of image manipulation. Remember your picture of the statue of Lennon from Cuba, where he's portrayed as a bare-footed peasant hero type chap (much more acceptable to a Communist regime than a borgouis (sp) millionaire driving around New York in limo's.)
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Bobber on March 31, 2010, 08:26:48 PM
...accepting that Jesus looks no different to the local kebab shop man...

LOL!
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Sondra on April 01, 2010, 08:01:04 AM
Hey man, he was the son of God. He had to be pretty. That guy up there is just creepy! ;D ;D

Title: Re: Religion
Post by: nyfan(41) on April 01, 2010, 11:25:30 AM


(http://new.rejesus.co.uk/images/area_uploads/faces/faces_black_jesus2.jpg)
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: nyfan(41) on April 01, 2010, 11:28:52 AM
^^ please don't have me wrong - i personally think jesus is a plagiarized version of egyptian sun god horus
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joost on April 01, 2010, 11:54:23 AM
^^ please don't have me wrong - i personally think jesus is a plagiarized version of egyptian sun god horus

Almost all historians (not just the christian ones) agree that it's very likely that Jesus Christ really did excist. How much of his legend is true is, of course, another issue.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Kevin on April 01, 2010, 12:03:53 PM
Almost all historians (not just the christian ones) agree that it's very likely that Jesus Christ really did excist. How much of his legend is true is, of course, another issue.

Go with that. It's whether you believe his claim to be the son of a divine supernatural being that things get a bit dodgy. And he wasn't the first (or last) man to claim to be descended from a god.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: emmi_luvs_beatles on April 01, 2010, 02:37:14 PM
My Aunt has this picture hanging in her livingroom....

(http://witnessed.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/jesus-christ.jpg)
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Jane on April 01, 2010, 08:31:16 PM
It absolutely doesn`t matter what he looked like. It is irrelevant.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: Joost on April 01, 2010, 09:00:13 PM
It absolutely doesn`t matter what he looked like. It is irrelevant.

That's true, but that's not the point here. Thing is that there are millions of people who worship him, but at the same time reject the person that he really was and go for a fictionalized version adjusted to their own preferences.
Title: Re: Religion
Post by: nyfan(41) on April 02, 2010, 11:30:02 AM
this is a really interesting 3 part documentary about the origins of christianity
it presents the argument that the christ story is a metaphor for the sun and the zodiac
if you have a half hour - it's pretty good
.
.

i'm not cosigning on it, but it's definitely thought provoking / informative
Zeitgeist [Religion] The Greatest Story Ever Sold (1of 3) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNf-P_5u_Hw#)
Zeitgeist [Religion] The Greatest Story Ever Sold (2 of 3) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qc-mrJf45Hg&feature=related#)
Zeitgeist [Religion] The Greatest Story Ever Sold (3 of 3) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjAegPhQOUg&feature=related#)