DM's Beatles forums
Beatles forums => The Beatles => Topic started by: Herecomesyoursun on June 26, 2004, 12:24:34 AM
-
I think that it was a joke intentionally done by the Beatles and here's why. The hoax wasn't made public until about 1969 by the DJ in Michigan or something. But on the White Album in Glass Onion, John says, "And Here's another clue for you all, the Walrus was Paul" In my mind this shows that they were setting it up.
-
Interesting....and it could help fuel record sales.....but I think John's line is just a coincidence...
-
Coincidence.
The bit on Glass Onion was just a part of the bigger theme of the song. Like peeling away layers of their music (which they all hated) to try and find the 'real' meaning, this song was a swipe at obsessed fans. Including that line.
-
I think it was just a joke that the Beatles were playing on the fans in the 60's because some were looking for something way too deep in the lyrics along with album covers that wasn't there.
-
I believe it was coincidence at first. However, once the Beatles were aware of it, they marketed to it. I think the fans invented conjoured it up, not the Beatles. The Beatles just played off of it.
-
I agree with scoopdogg73 that it initially was a coincidence. Then once they realized how many people were buying into it, they made it into an ongoing "joke".
-
it's the more stupid news of century
-
It's not like the Beatles never put anything hidden in their songs. Backwards guitars, the word "tit" in "Girl" ... the list goes on and on. I think it's possible.
Some of the clues are a little far reaching, but have you ever played the number nines in "Rev9" backwards? Whether it's a coincedence or not, it's there, "turn me on dead man." You don't have to be stoned to hear it, it's plain as day. The other creepy thing is putting a mirror halfway in the LONELY HEARTS on the Sgt Pepper bass drum. Eleven nine he die.
-
Scoopdogg had it I think.
I think it was a coincidence at first,but then I think they just kind of rolled with it.
You have to try PRETTY hard to catch some of these things though.
I've actually listened to the end of I'm So Tired backwards and I must say it is pretty hard to hear.
-
But why wouldn't any of them ever admit it? They seem to be pretty open about the things they've done. It does seem like a big coincidence though.
-
[quote by=Maccalvr link=Blah.pl?b=cc,m=1088209474,s=9 date=1088646910]But why wouldn't any of them ever admit it? They seem to be pretty open about the things they've done. It does seem like a big coincidence though. [/quote]
It is.
People can have fun playing with conspiracy theories but it has no bearing on the truth.
-
Exactly. For example, look at JFK's conspiracy theories. Everyone from LBJ to Castro supposedly had some involvement in his assassination. Don't forget the Mafia and even Frank Sinatra.
But Oswald acted alone, or did he...
-
I think it was a joke, it's a pretty funny one at that, I mean could you believe being able to make a mass amount of people believe something like that? It's hillarious.
-
I think at first it was a cowincadence that turned into a joke.
-
if only they discussed it on Anthology, we might be able to know for sure. However that Glass Onion line convinced me that the Beatles had at least partial involvement in it.
-
[quote by=Herecomesyoursun link=Blah.pl?b=cc,m=1088209474,s=14 date=1088865105]if only they discussed it on Anthology, we might be able to know for sure.
-
yeah but before 1969, no one was reading the 'Paul is Dead' bit in the lyrics. Yes it is a song about that, but why would they include a bit shunning a group that didnt even exist yet?
-
It is NOT a song about PID.
-
Ooh, I love the PID theories - it's one of the first things (apart from the music) that first drew me into the Beatles legend. I love a bit of modern mythology now and then :)
However, I'm quite sure it was just coincidences - you start with an idea in your head and suddenly everything seems to work perfectly with it (I've tried it myself, looking for the number 42, and suddenly it's everywhere ;) ) But I have to admit that listening to backward music is quite creepy in itself...
In fact, I'm such a fan of the whole conspiracy theory I made a parody (with photgraphic 'evidence') called PTLVNAT (Paul Takes Little Vacations Now And Then) to entertain my sister - first disproving PID, before launching into an even sillier theory...
-
[quote by=misterchaz link=Blah.pl?b=cc,m=1088209474,s=17 date=1088890727]It is NOT a song about PID.
-
Didn't mean to harsh your buzz, man.
By all means, please do assign any meaning to any song or piece of film you see.
After all, we're all bozo's on this bus.
;-)
-
well, most of us bozo's are voting joke by the Beatles. Take that Mr C. We don't want your logic!
-
And voting counts....how?
In here I suppose it has some weight, but in real life.....I doubt it very much.
-
Charlie, if this vote at a small Beatles forum says something happened, then surely it did. I was just kidding around before, the poll obviously doesn't really matter. We all have our opinions, right?
-
[quote by=Herecomesyoursun link=Blah.pl?b=cc,m=1088209474,s=23 date=1089146740]Charlie, if this vote at a small Beatles forum says something happened, then surely it did.
-
[quote by=misterchaz link=Blah.pl?b=cc,m=1088209474,s=24 date=1089165088]
Of course.
-
[quote by=Herecomesyoursun link=Blah.pl?b=cc,m=1088209474,s=25 date=1089165543]
O pleez Charlie, I Swiffer.
-
well I'm glad we agree on that Mr C ;)
-
I think it was a joke by the beatles
-
i think it started out as other people finding "hidden clues", but the beatles themselves turned it into a joke. the glass onion line definitely proves john & the rest of the beatles know the rumor is stupid, and they're taunting the public with clues. some of the clues are just plain eerie, but i think people stretch some to make them look like he really was dead. if i were around this time i probably would have believed it, but i've done research & stuff...he's definitely not dead
-
[quote by=sexy_sadie link=Blah.pl?b=cc,m=1088209474,s=29 date=1089353657]i think it started out as other people finding "hidden clues", but the beatles themselves turned it into a joke. the glass onion line definitely proves john & the rest of the beatles know the rumor is stupid, and they're taunting the public with clues. some of the clues are just plain eerie, but i think people stretch some to make them look like he really was dead. if i were around this time i probably would have believed it, but i've done research & stuff...he's definitely not dead[/quote]
problem is glass onion was recorded and released before the rumors started nearly a year later.
-
yeas Sadie read some of the earlier posts in this thread. Don't get Mr C started on this.
-
Heh.
I was gracious once, I shan't be again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-
[quote by=misterchaz link=Blah.pl?b=cc,m=1088209474,s=30 date=1089402290]
problem is glass onion was recorded and released before the rumors started
-
He did throw the line in....ever since Pepper people thought there was hidden messages and lessons in their records...by playing them fast, slow,backwards, whatever.
Since the controversy about who the Walrus on the cover of MMT was fairly recent he tossed in the line about Paul.
That's all.
LENNON: "Well, I heard some Beatles stuff on the radio the other day and I heard 'Green Onion' ...no, 'Glass Onion,' I don't even know my own songs! I listened to it because it was a rare track..."
PLAYBOY: "That was the one that contributed to the 'Paul McCartney is dead' uproar because of the lyric 'The walrus is Paul.'"
LENNON: "Yeah. That line was a joke, you know. That line was put in partly because I was feeling guilty because I was with Yoko, and I knew I was finally high and dry. In a perverse way, I was sort of saying to Paul, 'Here, have this crumb, have this illusion, have this stroke... because I'm leaving you.' Anyway, it's a song they don't usually play."
:)
I guess I was referring to it being a year later (69) when the real PID rumors flew....obviously there had been squealings as early as Nov 66 when Paul had his motorbike accident. That's what's John was talkling about. Which is what caused your confusion. Sorry about that, I wasn't clear.
-
ohhh. alright, i get it now haha. thanks :)
-
i thought it was a ploy to sell more lp's? like in the thing with abby road
if you look at paul has no shoes on, and something with george being something with an undertaker?
(http://comtech-products.com/images/abby%20road.JPG)
-
what about the song of revolution #9, the backwards thing that ringo says, thats strange and unnezezary
-
what aout the song of tax man, revolution # 9, a day in the life, also glass onion, all those songs have ''subliminal'' messages related to paul's death
-
what about the songs of tax man, a day inthe life, revolution # 9, and already mentioned glass onion, have subliminal messaes
-
I think the entire thing was a total coincidence.
Now -- what might be fun is people sharing what "clues" came out....
-
[quote by=John_Leppord link=Blah.pl?b=cc,m=1088209474,s=36 date=1089841159]i thought it was a ploy to sell more lp's? like in the thing with abby road
if you look at paul has no shoes on, and something with george being something with an undertaker?
([url]http://comtech-products.com/images/abby%20road.JPG[/url])[/quote]
I thought ringo was the undertaker, George is the grave digger
-
[quote by=number14 link=Blah.pl?b=cc,m=1088209474,s=41 date=1089940370]
I thought ringo was the undertaker, George is the grave digger
[/quote]
i forget the whole thing but i remember someone being the undertaker and stuff like that ::)
-
John...minister, the rest is correct.
As for subliminal? Fuggedabouddit. There were no 'clues' beyond what people wanted to hear. Fun, but not prrof.
-
I've got a million of 'em :D
(http://www.paulisnotdead.com/images/scream1.gif)
(http://www.paulisnotdead.com/old/images/pmfc1ani.gif)
(http://www.tlcgraphic.com/images/PaulFadeAn.gif)
(http://img44.exs.cx/img44/5690/2PaulFadeAn.gif)
-
I have studied this PID thing extensively, so lemme reply to a few points made:
1) On Abbey Road I believe John is the Angel, Ringo the Minister, Paul the Deceased, and George the Gravedigger. Ringo doesn't even look like he's fit to dig graves in that picture.
2) In Glass Onion John put that there because Paul wore the Walrus suit on the MMT cover. This is the website where you can find it at: http://www.beatles-discography.com . So just go to Songs A-G, Glass Onion, and read. The whole song was made the same way I Am The Walrus was made -- to confuse people that read to into John's lyrics.
3) http://macca4ever.proboards26.com/index.cgi?board=PID is a GREAT Paul is Not Dead site that I participate in a lot. Come take a visit and become a member -- it's a very great forum.
4) That forum was made in retaliation to http://60if.proboards21.com/index.cgi#60if . In that board if you were not a "yes man," you were banned. Go ask anyone on the board macca4ever and you'll get the same responses.
That is all for now.
-
There were just too many coincidences, so I think it's a joke.
But on the other hand, if it was a joke, why are Paul and Ringo still denying that it was a joke 35 years later?
-
The only reason there are so many PID clues is BECAUSE of the rumor. You could find just as many clues for the other members.
In fact, go here: http://udel.edu/~mm/beatles/paulLives/paulLives.html
Humorous report done nine years ago about how everyone BUT Paul is dead.
-
i think the whole PID theory is interesting, but the more i read on it the less real it seems. i guess it's like anything, if u sit there and listen carefully, read into the lyrics and think about it too much, it seems to take over. some people just have wayyy too much time on their hands ;-)
-
It's like the Bermuda Triangle, or UFO's, or the Loch Ness Monster...all sorts of mysterious legends that tantalize and expand people's minds as they search for information. It IS fun, but I think very few take a lot of this fortean material without a tongue firmly in cheek.
-
From what I've always heard John was the priest. Ringo the undertaker. Although none of them meant to be anything so we could pretty much say what we want about it! Oh, and Paul was NOT wearing the walrus suit on the cover of MMT. It was John. John was not in the chicken suit with glasses. Ringo was wearing those glasses. Watch the movie. Ringo has the glasses on with his chicken suit and Paul's watch is the same in the movie as in the cover photo.
This is my favorite discussion on the whole PID thing:
Chris Farley: Remember when you were with the Beatles and you were supposed to be dead, and there were all these clues, like you play some song backwards and it'd say, like "Paul is Dead" and everybody thought you were dead and, um, that was a hoax right?
Paul: Yeah, I wasn't really dead.
-
[quote by=Maccalvr link=Blah.pl?b=cc,m=1088209474,s=50 date=1090734114]From what I've always heard John was the priest. Ringo the undertaker. Although none of them meant to be anything so we could pretty much say what we want about it! Oh, and Paul was NOT wearing the walrus suit on the cover of MMT. It was John. John was not in the chicken suit with glasses. Ringo was wearing those glasses. Watch the movie. Ringo has the glasses on with his chicken suit and Paul's watch is the same in the movie as in the cover photo.
-
Just in case no one read it:
During the most recent "Paul is dead" thread, philllll noted that if the clues were merely the result of coincidence, one would expect that there would be about as many death clues for the other three Beatles as there are for Paul. Hoping to prove that just such a situation exists, I checked my CDs and stumbled across evidence of a much bigger conspiracy: all the Beatles except Paul died and were replaced by doubles. More specifically, in 1963 Ringo died and was replaced; George died and was replaced in 1964; John died and was replaced in 1965; and RIngo's replacement died in a car crash in November of 1966 and was re-replaced. Of course, the clues about the '66 car crash of "Ringo2" were what produced the Paul is dead rumors.
The Evidence
(Actually, a lot of "general death" clues are the same in both the mistaken "Paul is dead" theory and the newly emergent "All but Paul are dead theory." [ie, the death's head on the Abbey Road back cover] Those won't be discussed due to space considerations. Instead, I shall concentrate on new clues, and providing correct interpretations of some old ones.
1963:
On the front cover of With the Beatles, Ringo's face is not in line with those of the other Fabs. Clearly a clue that the "Ringo" on this album is different form the others: obviously, he had died between the first two albums and been replaced.
1964:
On the cover of A Hard Day's Night, George is the only Beatles with his back to the camera in any of the photos, and he's the only one with a cigarette ("a coffin nail"). These are the signals that George had died.
On the Long Tall Sally EP, George wears a different style of coat than the other three, again indicating that he's different, having been replaced. (Technically, George and Ringo both should be shown as different, but presumably whoever is in charge of planting the clues [Paul? John? EMI? Spiritual entities?] decided that having George and Ringo in one style of coat and Paul and John in a second style would make it difficult to figure out just which pair of Beatles is supposed to be gone. Therefore, for these two records they concnetrated on announcing the most recent death).
On the Beatles for Sale LP, the Beatles all wear black, and the record includes the song "Baby's in Black." Black of course is a traditional color of mourning--just the state you'd expect Paul and John to be in after the deaths of two of their comrades.
1965:
On the cover of the Nowhere Man EP, Ringo is sitting on a stone monument, obviously meant to symbolize his tombstone. (Apparently the 'forces' deciding what clues to drop decided to give Ringo a new clue so he'd be even with George).
On the cover of the Help! album, the Beatles are holding their hands in semaphore positions. However, instead of spelling out "help" as one would rightly expect, they spell out "NUJV." This is an abbreviation for "New unknown John vocalist," indicating that John had died and been replaced. And since the odds of the Beatles just 'coincidentally' picking four letters that match that phrase must be millions to one, this MUST be a planned clue. On this album, the Beatles (what's left of them, that is) stopped indicating a member's death by showing him as different than the others. Indeed, since Paul was now the only non-replacement in the band, *he* was shown as the different one (ie, with his back to the camera on the back cover of Sgt Pepper) to indicate that he was alive. That this would later be interpreted as evidence of Paul's demise must have been a crushing irony to the one remaining original Beatle.
In "I'm Looking through You," (from Rubber Soul), Paul sings "You don't look different, but you have changed"--a reference to the three replacements he had to surround himself with.
1966:
On Revolver, John#2 sings the song "I'm Only Sleeping." Sleep is, of course, a metaphor for death (cf Hamlet's "Too sleep, perchance to dream" soliloquy).
Also from Revolver, in "She Said She Said" John#2 sings "I know what it's like to be dead," which the original John did indeed know by now. In "Eleanor Rigby," Paul sings "Father McKenzie/ wiping the dirt from his hands as he walks from the grave/No one was saved." 'Father McKenzie' is obviously a metaphorical reference to Paul McCartney (after all, what are the odds that Paul would by mere coincidence come up with a character whose last name begins with 'Mc' just like his own?!), who had far too often walked from the graves of his fellow band members. And indeed none of the other Beatles had been 'saved' from death.
1967:
In "Strawberry Fields," John#2 says "I buried Paul." At first, this may suggest that Paul had joined the other three Bealtes in dying. However, earlier John#2 sings "Nothing is real," which shows that his latter comment is not a 'real' clue, but rather a red herring to throw the unwary off of the real trail.
On the Sgt. Pepper album, the Beatles introduce Billy Shears to replace Ringo#2 (that is the original Ringo's replacement) who is the real victim of the November 1966 car crash that figures so prominently in the "Paul Is Dead" theory. How anyone ever thought that Billy Shears was Paul's replacement is hard to fathom. After all, the next song following the "Let me introduce to you the one and only Billy Shears" bit is sung by 'Ringo'. And 'Ringo' would provide further confirmation in 1973's "I'm the Greatest" when he admits "My name is Billy Shears/It has been for so many years." In the face of this evidence, the thought that Billy Shears could be Paul's replacement seems faintly ridiculous.
Furthermore, it's well known that "A Day in the Life" describes the famed November 1966 car crash. However, everyone seems to have overlooked an obvious clue as to the victim of the car crash planted within "A Day in the Life": the ringing alarm clock!! Why would the Beatles include something that was 'ring'-ing unless it was to show that the song is about 'Ring'-o?!?
A similar identity-clue hidden within a death-clue appears on the front cover of the Magical Mystery Tour album. When the album is held upside down, the word 'Beatles' spells out the phone number of a London mortuary. However, the word 'Bealtes' is spelled out in stars--as in Ringo STARR! If the Beatles had really meant to indicate where Paul's body had been (as the "Paul is dead" theory insists), why would they use the one common symbol that was also a band memeber's last name? Obviously, this couldn't be a mere coincidence.
Also, one more clue from Sgt. Pepper needs to be discussed. On the front cover, someone holds a hand over Paul's head. This clearly mimics the actions of a priest in blessing the living--and Paul could certainly consider himself as blessed, as he was the only Beatle fate had spared.
The front cover of the Magical Mystery Tour album features one other clue. The titles of "Magical Mystery Tour", "The Fool on the Hill" and "Your Mother Should Know" are arranged as follows:
Magical...
...On The...
...Should...
Going counter-clockwise from the 'M', the capital letters spell out 'MOST' which is meant to indicate that MOST of the Beatles had died and been replaced. (After all, the odds of the capitals in a bunch of song titles coincidentally spelling out such a word must be millions to one). Also, on the inside cover of MMT, reference is made to "four or five magicians"--an allusion to the four replacements, plus Paul who serves as 5th magician--the 'magic' being the ability to keep the Beatles going despite the secret deaths of three members.
As for songs: John#2 sings "I Am the Walrus." Walruses are death symbols to Scandinavians. (Or maybe that was Eskimos. Or perhaps Falkland Islanders. I can't quite remember.) And in 'Hello, Goodbye", Paul sings "I don't know why you say goodbye, I say hello," a reference to the original Beatles (and one replacement) dying (Saying "Goodbye") and Paul surviving to say "hello" to their replacements.
1968:
In "Glass Onion," John#2 sings "Here's another clue for you all/The walrus was Paul." However, in this song, as in "Strawberry Fields," John#2 also sings "Nothing is real," thus tipping off the alert listener to the fact that this 'clue' is a mere red herring. In "I'm So Tired," John#2 sings about cigarettes ("coffin nails").
Furthermore, at the end of "I'm So Tired," John#2 says several nonsense syllables which, when played backwards, become "Paul, I'm dead." However, due to the poor sound quality, many insist mistakenly that it's "Paul is dead." (Much like the people who mistakenly insist on claiming that the words at the end of "Strawberry Fields" are 'cranberry sauce') In "Yer Blues," John#2 sings "If I ain't dead already" in ironic reference to John (that is the real John) indeed being dead already.
1969:
On the cover of Abbey Road, a VW has the license plate "281F," which can, of course be read, as '28IF' and denotes that John (born in Oct, 1940) would have been 28 when Abbey Road was released (Sept. 1969) IF he had lived. Also, the use of the "281F" plate is really a clever clue-within-a-clue, since the substitution of '1' for 'I' must have been inspired by the fact that Abbey Road was released only *1* month before John's birthday. Possibly the poignancy of that juxtaposition was what inspired the decision to mention John's age (had he lived) on the cover rather than George's or Ringo's (presumably the decision to not refer to all their ages was motivated by the difficulty in parking three cars so one could read all their license plates).
John#2's song "I Want You (She's So Heavy)" is abruptly cut off, clearly as a metaphor for the real John's life being abruptly cut short back in 1965. In "Come Together," the line "come together, over me" refers to a burial (where, of course, the mourners 'come together' over the grave). Later in this song, the line "one and one and one is three" indicates that three original Beatles were buried. Why isn't it "1+1+1+1 is four"? Because... The "I'd like to be under the sea" lines in "Octopus's Garden" indicate that Ringo#2 (that is, the replacement who was replaced by Billy Shears) was buried at sea. Thus, there was no gravesite for others to 'Come Together' over. Therefre, its "1+1+1 is three." QED.
Of course, all of this is still only the preliminary work. I don't own a version of Magical Mystery Tour with the original booklet in it, I don't have the resources necessary to listen to every single song backwards, etc. I beseach the dedicated investigators that must be out there among the RMB'ers to help unearth more important clues.
-
[quote by=Frightwolf link=Blah.pl?b=cc,m=1088209474,s=51 date=1090776703]
Does Ringo look like an undertaker there?
-
Farley-Umm, you know at the end of Abbey Road when it say's "And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make"?
McCartney-Yeah
Farley-Is that true?
-
A Joke by The Bealtes...
-
I always assumed it was a co-incidence and that they ran with it. I don;t think they set it up or anything, just had a laugh at the general stupidity of the public at the time to believe anything.
-
Love the Farley Interview..at the end, with the Terminator talk...
-
I think it started coincidentally and ended up being fed by the Beatles themselves. ;)
-
The idea came from a DJ not the Beatles
-
It would be interesting to know the truth of this matter...
I have a strong feeling inside that the Beatles set it up on purpose... I mean... what are the chances that Paul "happens" to have the black carnation on his suit, while the others have red? And for what reason in God's name would Paul be the only one shoeless? And come on... the Walrus was Paul?
I think they set it up... Not for marketing material or anything like that... It's because it was during the psychedelic age! People did this stuff on purpose just to mess with other peoples minds... I mean, the bit at the end with the high pitched whistle and the Beatles jibber-jabber was all but there by John just to mess with people... It's just something artists do when they have too much exposure and enough power in their hands... they take advantage of their audiences, so to speak... and I'm sure the Beatles where sick of all the attention and decided to take advantage... honestly, why wouldn't they? I sure would've if I were in their shoes... :)
-
PS - There should be an authorized, official DVD of this with interviews by Paul, Ringo, George Martin and everyone else who could've been involved, getting to the truth of this matter... I would surely buy it! I think someone should write a letter to Apple!
-
The Paul is dead fiasco back in 69 started by some Beatles fans having way too much time on their hands at the time looking way too deep into album covers like Abbey Road & lyrics like Glass Onion instead of just digging the music itself!
-
I thought it was started by an American Radio host.
-
Russ Gibb was the DJ, in Michigan. The thing is it wasn't his "idea" per se... a fan brought some clues off the Magical Mystery Tour album to his attention, he gave it air time and it snowballed from there. I guess you could say he "started" it, but it wasn't initially some idea or brainstorm he had, saying "I think I'll start a rumor that Paul McCartney is dead!" ;)
http://www.keener13.com/history/keener_kills_paul.htm
Here is a little internet piece about Gibb.
-
Just a coicidence.
-
The Beatles were in fact aware of the rumour well before it was published in New York Newsday, October 22, 1969.