DM's Beatles forums

Solo forums => Paul McCartney => Topic started by: Will Campbell on January 07, 2005, 06:29:21 AM

Title: What do YOU think?
Post by: Will Campbell on January 07, 2005, 06:29:21 AM
Most of you would be aware of the row (again) between Paul & Yoko over the songwriting credits of Yesterday.  For those of you who haven't heard however, Paul wanted to include Yesterday on a collection of Paul McCartney (read: solo efforts) Love Songs.

I have read variously that he wanted the song on the album and the writing credits altered to (depending on the source) McCartney/Lennon or McCartney.  Yoko has refused to allow it.

My question is whose side would you take?  I have to say that for once, I'd take Yoko's - the song was released on a Beatles album and was published as a Lennon/McCartney composition.  It's a Beatles track and not a McCartney.

Interested to see what the rest of you think?  News articles can be found on the net - it broke on or about the 28th of Decemebr last year....
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: on January 07, 2005, 09:37:58 AM
I take Yoko's side, only for one reason, though: Yesterday isn't a love song! It's a depressing song! It's supposed to be for when you've loved and lost, not loved! It does NOT belong on any Love Song compilation, no matter who releases it. But I think it should be credited as a McCartney/Lennon composition because it was mainly Paul's song, regardless of whether it is on a Beatles or solo album... But that's just my opinion :)
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: An Apple Beatle on January 07, 2005, 09:41:44 AM
I think if Paul gets away with this one he would open a can of worms and compromise the legacy of The Beatles. Where would it stop?
I hope it's not vanity on Paul's part although it's pretty obvious that the song is 'his' like 'Masterpiece' and he may be very well attached to it. Still that's no reason to break the unity or devalue the BEatles song stock like that. I suppose Ringo would not have the same problem. lol
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Mr.Moonlight on January 08, 2005, 01:16:31 PM
Paul whether in front or in the back both earn

Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Mairi on January 09, 2005, 02:24:24 AM
[quote by=PaulLennon68 link=Blah.pl?b=mccartney,m=1105079361,s=1 date=1105090678]I take Yoko's side, only for one reason, though: Yesterday isn't a love song! It's a depressing song! It's supposed to be for when you've loved and lost, not loved! It does NOT belong on any Love Song compilation, no matter who releases it. But I think it should be credited as a McCartney/Lennon composition because it was mainly Paul's song, regardless of whether it is on a Beatles or solo album... But that's just my opinion :)[/quote]

I totally agree!

Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: number14 on January 09, 2005, 02:30:38 AM
paul has the right to use it but he should still say lennon mccartney
but still paul wrote it not john
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: andyec on January 10, 2005, 01:23:43 AM
I totally agree with An Apple Beatle. Paul's an egomaniac. He needs to let it be.
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Lenny Pane on January 10, 2005, 01:41:34 PM
i have to agree as well that paul is a bit of an egomaniac.... i certainly felt that way after watching LIB...but i will say that if paul wants that on his album then put it on there... no need to change the lennon/mcCartney title coz everyone knows that he wrote the damn song .... but as far as asking yoko for permission.... well that would really p*ss me off !
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: tkitna on January 11, 2005, 01:30:34 AM
What makes the difference? Paul has the right to switch the order around anyways as he did on 'Back In The US' and 'Wings Across America' so that argument can be thrown out the window. Yoko wasnt arguing about the credit switch, she was arguing with Paul because the album he was going to put out was his solo love songs and 'Yesterday' was a Beatles song. Remember, Yoko omitted Paul as a credit for 'Give Peace A Chance' on one of Johns compilations (The John Lennon Collection), so its all good.

I recieved this information on a different board and the link doesnt work now, but I copied and pasted the article -

http://www.contactmusic.com/new/xml...bpages/mccartne y%20angry%20with%20ono.s%20beatles%20song%20ban (note the error on the time from Lennon's death to the time the problems between Paul and Yoko became public--1980 to 2000 is 20 years, not 10)

December 28, 2004 -- Daily Mail

Yoko's feud with Paul looks as though it's here to stay.

More than four years after their public row over the song "Yesterday," Sir Paul McCartney and Yoko Ono are still squabbling.

John Lennon's widow has banned Sir Paul from including his best-known ballad on a solo album of love songs because she insists it is by the Beatles.

And he is so unhappy about Yoko's decision that he is considering abandoning the entire project. "He can't believe she is being so petty," said a source close to Sir Paul.

Yoko, 71, has always been accused of breaking up the Beatles by distancing Lennon from his bandmates McCartney, George Harrison and Ringo Starr. But the ill-feeling between her and Sir Paul did not break into the open until 2000, ten years after Lennon's murder, when Yoko and the three surviving group members put together the "Beatles 1" album and the "Anthology" DVD and book.

Although "Yesterday" is credited to Lennon/McCartney, it was entirely the work of Sir Paul and he asked for his name to be put first this time.

"I felt that after 30 years this would be a nice gesture and something that might be easy for Yoko to agree with," 62-year-old Sir Paul said at the time. "At first she said yes then she rang back a couple of hours later and reversed her decision."

Two years later, Sir Paul hit back. On his album "Back In The U.S. Live 2002," the credits for all the Beatles songs read "composed by Paul McCartney and John Lennon."
Yoko responded by removing McCartney's credit from "Give Peace A Chance" on the "Lennon Legend" DVD. Even though the song was written by Lennon it had always had McCartney's name on it because it was written when they were still in The Beatles.

The latest installment of the feud involves an album called "Paul McCartney Love Songs," due out early in the New Year.

Although it features mainly music from his post-Beatles days including, "My Love," "Silly Love Songs," "Girlfriend," and "Pipes of Peace," he had hoped to include "Yesterday" because it was a solo effort.

The source close to Sir Paul said last night that the album had been due to come out around Valentine's Day.

"The Apple group - which is now essentially Paul, Ringo, Yoko and George's widow Olivia - has a final decision about what happens with all Beatles music. All of the others were happy to let Paul put 'Yesterday' on the new album but Yoko refused.
"Even though she knows John did not have a hand in writing 'Yesterday' she insisted that as a Beatles song it should not be on a Paul McCartney solo album.

"This situation is becoming more and more petty. And what infuriates Paul the most is that he knows if John were still around there would not be a problem."

A spokesman for Yoko said, "This is a Beatles decision - you to speak to Apple."
A spokesman for Apple was unavailable for comment.

Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Will Campbell on January 11, 2005, 03:45:45 AM
Agreed, and that's what I was getting at - it is a Beatles song; not solo Paul song - that's why I backed Yoko.
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: tkitna on January 11, 2005, 06:57:24 AM
Yes, but what about this (just something to ponder)? Why was there no complaining here?

(http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drd100/d108/d10872a053b.jpg)

Track listing

1  Something  Harrison  3:03 
2  If I Needed Someone  Harrison  2:23 
3  Here Comes the Sun  Harrison  3:07 
4  Taxman  Harrison  2:38 
5  Think for Yourself  Harrison  2:21 
6  For You Blue  Harrison  2:32 
7  While My Guitar Gently Weeps  Harrison  4:47 
8  My Sweet Lord  Harrison  4:39 
9  Give Me Love (Give Me Peace on Earth)  Harrison  3:36 
10  You  Harrison  3:42 
11  Bangla Desh  Harrison  3:59 
12  Dark Horse  Harrison  3:54 
13  What Is Life  Harrison  4:20 
 
 
 
 
 
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Lenny Pane on January 11, 2005, 11:15:12 AM
nice post tkitna .......
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: pc31 on January 11, 2005, 11:23:24 AM
paul who?????
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: tkitna on January 11, 2005, 11:42:47 AM
You can call him Sir, and who are those two f**s on the right of your signature?
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: The End on January 11, 2005, 01:10:12 PM
More to the point, how about this:

(http://www3.hmv.co.uk/hmv/Large_Images/HMV/CDP7908032.JPG)

1. Real Love
2. Twist And Shout
3. Help!
4. In My Life
5. Strawberry Fields Forever
6. A Day In The Life
7. Revolution
8. The Ballad Of John And Yoko
9. Julia
10. Don't Let Me Down

11. Give Peace A Chance
12. How?
13. Imagine (Rehearsal)
14. God
15. Mother
16. Stand By Me
17. Jealous Guy
18. Woman
19. Beautiful Boy (Darling Boy)
20. (Just Like) Starting Over
21. Imagine
 
I think Paul SHOULD be allowed to use Yesterday if he wants, but it should retain the "Lennon/McCartney" songwriting credit.
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Indica on January 11, 2005, 05:13:33 PM
Exactly.
The basic point is that its his song, and Im sure Lennon wouldn't be bothered.
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: An Apple Beatle on January 11, 2005, 05:16:31 PM
I have a better understanding of the principles of argument now. Cheers Tkitna. It all does seem a bit petty as Lenny Pane pointed out...must be horrible having to ask for permission. If they are predominantly written by one and they do a solo thing maybe it's right to have the one name...I was just getting at the shame of having to bother. Seems like a future legacy investment.
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Mairi on January 11, 2005, 05:23:30 PM
Personally I think Paul and Yoko don't care THAT much about the songwriting credits and are in actuality just doing this to spite each other. I wouldn't put it past the two of them, their little rivalry has been going on for quite a while now.
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Lenny Pane on January 11, 2005, 05:36:25 PM
hmmmm you could have a point there .... but we can only speculate i guess .
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Indica on January 11, 2005, 06:25:39 PM
..well I know who's side Im on :)
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on January 11, 2005, 09:01:41 PM
[quote by=tkitna link=Blah.pl?b=mccartney,m=1105079361,s=10 date=1105426644]Yes, but what about this (just something to ponder)? Why was there no complaining here?

(http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drd100/d108/d10872a053b.jpg)

Track listing

1
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on January 11, 2005, 09:10:42 PM
[quote by=IndicaWalrus link=Blah.pl?b=mccartney,m=1105079361,s=15 date=1105463613]Exactly.
The basic point is that its his song, and Im sure Lennon wouldn't be bothered.
[/quote]

No, that's not the point at all.

If Paul wants to use the Beatles' recording of Yesterday, that's fine as long as he indicates clearly that it IS the Beatles' recording.

But if he still wants to change the credits, I would be puzzled. Paul, after the big discussion about this credits thing several months back, publicly said it was a non-issue in the end and he's not fussed by it any longer. If he's changed his mind, then you've got to wonder about his perspective, and whether he has a firm grasp on reality!
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Indica on January 12, 2005, 12:46:59 AM
But its not the Beatles.
Its Paul Mccartney.
It might have been recorded under the Beatle name, and the presumption that the creative input was split four ways, but it wasn't. The Beatle entity is sometimes taken to be an all material engulfing monster..but it doesn't work like that.
Yeah, it was issued as the Beatles, but that was only because of the band attitude and the democratic nature they adopted.
The reason for him not following up his idea on the credits has alot more to do with media, public attitude, and basically money.
We, as fans, dont know the degree to the eagerness of his claim.
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on January 12, 2005, 01:27:48 AM
[quote by=IndicaWalrus link=Blah.pl?b=mccartney,m=1105079361,s=22 date=1105490819]But its not the Beatles.
Its Paul Mccartney.
It might have been recorded under the Beatle name, and the presumption that the creative input was split four ways, but it wasn't. The Beatle entity is sometimes taken to be an all material engulfing monster..but it doesn't work like that.
Yeah, it was issued as the Beatles, but that was only because of the band attitude and the democratic nature they adopted.
The reason for him not following up his idea on the credits has alot more to do with media, public attitude, and basically money.
We, as fans, dont know the degree to the eagerness of his claim.[/quote]

Oh, my oath - it IS the Beatles. Certainly legally, which is why Paul has to get agreement from Ringo, and the estates of John and George. But apart from legally, the group AND George Martin AND the engineers AND the outside musicians would ALL have had input into the song. I'm sure that this is the aspect that p*sses many people off about Paul - he seems to want to deny the help and support and advice that he received from other people in the past. But one thing is VERY clear, Indica -YESTERDAY is not just Paul McCartney.

The sad thing about Paul these days is that he is very keen to be seen as Beatle Paul, while being close to denying the other three and the contributions they made. I feel that he may be regretting the many, many inconsequential songs he has written and performed since 1970. He may feel that indeed "the only thing (he) done was Yesterday", and that he has wasted his talents through laziness, and a casual approach to his music. As his working life nears its end, his regret may turn to bitterness - there are signs that it already is doing so.
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Mairi on January 12, 2005, 01:32:42 AM
I get the feeling you're not much of a McCartney fan Ydoll Gwen.

I disagree with your statement. I feel Paul has to stick up for himself as many people would like to think of him as less talente then John, which he certainly is not. You can't blame the man for trying to defend his good name. People always say, "Oh it was John, he wrote the best songs. Well, Paul is just trying to prove that they were equal.
All of the other Beatles always agreed that Yesterday was a solo effort, despite being released as a Beatles composition.
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on January 12, 2005, 01:41:52 AM
[quote by=Mairi link=Blah.pl?b=mccartney,m=1105079361,s=24 date=1105493562]I get the feeling you're not much of a McCartney fan Ydoll Gwen.

I disagree with your statement. I feel Paul has to stick up for himself as many people would like to think of him as less talente then John, which he certainly is not. You can't blame the man for trying to defend his good name. People always say, "Oh it was John, he wrote the best songs. Well, Paul is just trying to prove that they were equal.
All of the other Beatles always agreed that Yesterday was a solo effort, despite being released as a Beatles composition. [/quote]


I think you are missing the point. Also, please spell my name correctly! :)

What I say has nothing to do with whether I'm a Paul fan or not. I'm trying to be objective about the situation.

Paul isn't trying to prove that "they (John and Paul) were equal" - he seems increasingly to be seeing himself as the "best" Beatle, certainly better than John. Have you read MANY YEARS FROM NOW? It's silly to see Paul trying to put percentages to the contributions he and John made to Lennon/McCartney songs. Percentages, my God! Further, notice how often Paul sees himself as contributing strongly to "John songs", but how little he seems to acknowledge John's contributions to "Paul songs".

Paul cannot claim any great shakes for his solo career. So he seems to be wanting to paint himself a stronger color in the Beatles than he has a right to. I can understand, but I don't approve.
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Indica on January 12, 2005, 01:54:13 AM
Right.
Firstly, Ill disagree to agree about the Yesterday disagreement.
Now onto fresh debate :)
I think the percentage element of Many Years From Now is slightly trivial, but it is because of the Lennon situation, the years of character manipulation from the media, which had driven him to such lengths.
I think its ridiculous, how Lennon gets attributed as being the greater muscian..I mean, its all taste, but you cant deny Paul Mccartney hasn't earned his piece of being one of the cultural Revolutionist's of the 60's.
Its total tosh that he doesn't acknowledge Lennon towards his songs. The Anthology series makes a huge deal out of Hey Jude, and Paul sings John's praises about leaving the line "The Movement you need is on your shoulder" ..among others.
The fact is, if Lennon had first went to the London Avante Garde Happenings and created the tape loop creations, and the Peppers Idea...he would get alot more public appreciation than Paul did. Lennon's character beams with been different, thats why he is always credited..and Mccartney always tagged..the commercial* one.
Im not knocking Lennon, but..hey Mccartney not..a strong colour in the Beatles?
He was one of the god damn Brushes!
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on January 12, 2005, 02:38:12 AM
I'll make a few points in reply, Indica.

Re the "avante garde". Paul would impress folk much more if he had actually did some avante garde stuff, instead of just hanging out with the trendies in mid-6os London. All we have heard is a little burst of Carnival of Light, which sounded not so great (backing that up is that we have not heard the whole piece: if it was halfway good, Paul would have released it by now.) We also have some Paul loops on Tomorrow Never Knows. On the other hand, John went and did it. Listen to his ground-breaking work (Rain, Tomorrow Never Knows, Walrus, Revolution 9, ...)

Re the Hey Jude lyrics story. What has always fascinated me about this oft-told tale is that Paul is letting us know that his lyric was pretty good after all. "Shucks, I didn't know how good that lyric was - John opened my eyes." Paul could tell better stories: like how John rescued the lyrics of Drive My Car. Paul had written originally "Baby you can wear my ring ..." Like how Paul had written in I Saw Her Standing There " ... she was just 17, never been a beauty queen ...", and John had said, in essence, no that sucks, and suggested instead the wonderful sexual leer " ... she was just 17 ... you know what I mean ..."

I have great admiration for Paul, but I am also a realist. He was NOT the Beatles, AND NEITHER WAS George or Ringo or John. But I will say this: it is John's ground breaking contributions (both to early and mid-period Beatles) that led to the awesome reputation of the group. In support, consider how good A Hard Day's Night album is: almost totally John's work. Compare Rain and P'back Writer. Compare Strawberry Fields and Penny Lane. Compare Walrus and Hello Goodbye.

Paul may have been one of the goddamn brushes - but John was the artist!
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Indica on January 12, 2005, 03:03:45 AM
Its always the same arguement...Walrus vs Hello Goodbye... Strawberry Fields vs Penny lane.

Carnival of Light and the Mccartney vsists to Avant Garde London were miles apart.
Im talking about 65, in reference to Paul. It wasn't just messing around with fashionable mates..ok, John Dunbar, Miles etc.. but something WAS happening.
If you put it like that, Lennon could be attributed just the same title, when he got in with Yoko Ono in the late sixites, and with her underground art movement...
Early period..yeah Lennon Dominates..but he should, mid period..Mccartneys works are great..and late period? Mccartney flourishes, yes..towards the end..its horribly commercial..but you cant say Lennon was the artists..what complete rubbish.
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: pc31 on January 12, 2005, 03:07:59 AM
it does read like ria..........
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: tkitna on January 12, 2005, 03:09:51 AM
[quote by=Ydoll_Gwyn link=Blah.pl?b=mccartney,m=1105079361,s=25 date=1105494112]

Paul cannot claim any great shakes for his solo career. So he seems to be wanting to paint himself a stronger color in the Beatles than he has a right to. I can understand, but I don't approve.
[/quote]

Sorry, but your going to have to explain your view as to why Pauls solo career was so mediocre in your opinion. I'd be interested in your take.

Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Herecomesyoursun on January 12, 2005, 03:14:22 AM
No, ria did more quotes, she would have quoted from Indy's text.
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: pc31 on January 12, 2005, 03:24:18 AM
john was a pencil,paul the eraser.....
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: tkitna on January 12, 2005, 03:26:21 AM
Quote
I have great admiration for Paul, but I am also a realist. He was NOT the Beatles, AND NEITHER WAS George or Ringo or John.

True. It was a joint effort for sure.


Quote
But I will say this: it is John's ground breaking contributions (both to early and mid-period Beatles) that led to the awesome reputation of the group. In support, consider how good A Hard Day's Night album is: almost totally John's work.

Yes, it does appear that John had a greater impact during the 63' to 65' era, but a lot of loyalists consider that era to be the Beatles boy band period so i'm not getting your point. Paul had greater contributionslater with Sgt. Peppers and Abbey Road and many consider that to be the defining moment of the Beatles. It works both ways.



Quote
Compare Rain and P'back Writer.

ok, I prefer 'Paperback Writer'

Quote
Compare Strawberry Fields and Penny Lane.

ok, I understand how many people will choose SF's, but I personally like 'Penny Lane' better.

Quote
Compare Walrus and Hello Goodbye.

Yeah, i'll take 'Walrus' on this one, but you see how people tastes differ.

Quote
Paul may have been one of the goddamn brushes - but John was the artist!

In your eyes. I see it differently.

PS- By the way, hows it been Ria?

Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: tkitna on January 12, 2005, 03:29:07 AM
[quote by=pc31 link=Blah.pl?b=mccartney,m=1105079361,s=32 date=1105500258]john was a pencil,paul the eraser.....[/quote]

Lol! Yes, Paul did have to mend quite a few of his mistakes.

Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Sondra on January 12, 2005, 03:29:28 AM
[quote by=Ydoll_Gwyn link=Blah.pl?b=mccartney,m=1105079361,s=27 date=1105497492]I'll make a few points in reply, Indica.


Re the Hey Jude lyrics story. What has always fascinated me about this oft-told tale is that Paul is letting us know that his lyric was pretty good after all. "Shucks, I didn't know how good that lyric was - John opened my eyes." Paul could tell better stories: like how John rescued the lyrics of Drive My Car. Paul had written originally "Baby you can wear my ring ..." Like how Paul had written in I Saw Her Standing There " ... she was just 17, never been a beauty queen ...", and John had said, in essence, no that sucks, and suggested instead the wonderful sexual leer " ... she was just 17 ... you know what I mean ..."
[/quote]

And you doubt that Paul did the same for John in many cases? Neither of them were as outstanding solo as they were together.  And I don't think Paul is telling the story to give himself a boost. I think he's telling in response to people asking him about how Hey Jude came to be. But then he can't say anything positive about himself without ridicule can he?  I still don't get that.
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on January 12, 2005, 06:28:27 AM
Boy band period!

Pepper and Abbey Rd the defining moments!

Mr TKITNA, you and I will not get along. :(

The Beatles were not a boy band, I can assure you of that.

Abbey is too late in their career to be a defining moment. Good tho parts were, Abbey is too patchy in any case.

Pepper had a big Paul push, but that was only in the emphemeral stuff. But John's Pepper music is better than Paul's, as far as I'm concerned.

Why do Paul's fans hate any attempt to have a serious discussion about him, that touches any criticism?
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on January 12, 2005, 06:29:39 AM
Everyone - ria or Ria? Please explain.
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: tkitna on January 12, 2005, 07:26:07 AM
[quote by=Ydoll_Gwyn link=Blah.pl?b=mccartney,m=1105079361,s=36 date=1105511307]
Pepper and Abbey Rd the defining moments![/quote]

Maybe not the actual 'defining' moments, but perhaps their most recognized and critically acclaimed work. I apologize for my choice of words.

Quote
Mr TKITNA, you and I will not get along. :(

Sure we will. Why shouldnt we? I dont feel as though we're arguing. Strickly a debate.

Quote
The Beatles were not a boy band, I can assure you of that.


Another bad choice of words on my part. They were not a boys band in the respect that they actually played their own instruments and had talent enough to write and create music. A 'POP' band would be a better definition during their early years.

Quote
Abbey is too late in their career to be a defining moment. Good tho parts were, Abbey is too patchy in any case.

I think we're in agreeance about the defining moment aspect and i'm also in agreeance with you about the patchy segments of the album as a whole. My point is that Abbey Road was the slickest Beatle album ever produced and was important as a fitting end to the band. John didnt have much input in this album as he was fedup, in love, and just plain lazy. Paul rallied the troops for one last trip and i'm glad he did. For the band to go out with 'Let It Be' would have been a crime. They were better then that and 'Abbey Road' allows the world to see it.

Quote
Pepper had a big Paul push, but that was only in the emphemeral stuff. But John's Pepper music is better than Paul's, as far as I'm concerned.

To each his own about the John and Paul thing. I'm a 'Revolver' man myself.

Quote
Why do Paul's fans hate any attempt to have a serious discussion about him, that touches any criticism?

I'm a huge Paul fan as well as a John fan, George fan, Ringo fan, ect,,,and i'll be the first to admit that Paul is egotistical, a fairly bad lyricist, a glory hog, a shrewd business person, will do anything for the quick buck, and he has definately put out some crappers along with his excellent stuff. How was that?

I guess 'Paul' fans just want to assure the 'John' fans that he wasnt perfect either, but why should I go and list his negative aspects that are already known by everybody anyways? Its not about that. I guess since Johns death, Pauls been the only one here to answer for everything. Maybe he deserves a break once in awhile too.

Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: tkitna on January 12, 2005, 07:29:28 AM
[quote by=Ydoll_Gwyn link=Blah.pl?b=mccartney,m=1105079361,s=37 date=1105511379]Everyone - ria or Ria? Please explain.[/quote]

Sorry about that. Maria was a member that used to belong here that had very similiar ideas to your own as well as writing styles. I liked Maria, but she left and hasent returned yet. I thought you may have been her under a different alias. I wont make the comparison again.

Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Mairi on January 12, 2005, 05:20:01 PM
Quote
Why do Paul's fans hate any attempt to have a serious discussion about him, that touches any criticism?

What about Lennon fans? Neither Paul nor John had an untarnished record, no siree, but Lennon revisonists always want to paint over the facts and turn John into some kind of saint, and make Paul the bad guy. John's a great guy, but you can't say he was better than Paul because they were both equal. That's what Paul says himself. John? He called Paul's solo work "rubbish". Paul has always been the one to uphold the Beatles' name. I guess after Joh died he aquired some sort of halo, like he never did anything wrong.
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Indica on January 12, 2005, 05:41:46 PM
Exactly.
I hate to say it, and I think John's great, but after the shocking loss in 1980, Lennons face and name was set into stone, an untoucable Music Hero, with the purity that would make any rocker feel sick! Its happened to so many...maybe if Hendrix hadn't died, he might of done some horrible disco/guitar funk.. or.. Jim Morrison, hugely over-rated in my opinion. I know its all sad, to dwell on speculation, but you have to be a realist sometimes.
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Ssarah on January 12, 2005, 06:44:12 PM
The Beatles were GREAT but I feel like 90% of the people not just worship the beatles, but paul george ringo and john.  I feel that people have built them up to be the most perfect people in the whole world. It's just not true! They all have their faults, they all can be pricks...and they all can be SELFISH!
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on January 12, 2005, 09:13:48 PM
[quote by=tkitna link=Blah.pl?b=mccartney,m=1105079361,s=39 date=1105514968]

Sorry about that. Maria was a member that used to belong here that had very similiar ideas to your own as well as writing styles. I liked Maria, but she left and hasent returned yet. I thought you may have been her under a different alias. I wont make the comparison again.

[/quote]

Cool & understood. 'Sides, I'm male! Gwyn is a Cornish male first name. Don't ask what Ydoll means - that's a LONG story.
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on January 12, 2005, 09:23:53 PM
People, if you think me a John apologist, you have it wrong. Certainly, I feel that in the Beatles, John Lennon was the ONE, until he surrendered the role in 1967. Though he was still very creative, it is easy to see in hindsight that was the beginning of the end of the Beatles. Paul is not a group leader: he is an organizer, which is not the same thing. The group declined fast because John and George did not want to be organized!

I have little liking for John's & Paul's solo ventures. John burned himself out with the genius of POB. Imagine (I posted a crit of IMAGINE in the JL section) was disappointing. SINYC and MIND GAMES were dreadful. WALLS & BRIDGES was fair, but no great shakes. ROCK N ROLL wasn't inspired rock n roll: for me that's John's saddest album. DF and M&H - least said, soonest mended.

And Paul - some good songs, but no sustained, one whole album's worth of good material. If Paul had not been a Beatle, he would not have the reputation he enjoys today. Same with John.
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Indica on January 12, 2005, 11:48:06 PM
..the first part of your response is just...ridiculous. How can you believe such nonsense?
Surrended the role? listen, in the early stage, they played 'eyeball to eyeball' ..on twin beds..in which ever Hotel room.  You cant just round of a year, saying..well Paul took control on March 2nd 1967..
John and George did not want to be organized* ..they are not rabbits..this is not a pen. I feel the reasons for the break up were slightly more complex. It all boils down to money..its Human nature.
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on January 13, 2005, 12:28:46 AM
I'm not following you. I didn't narrow it down to a day! If you know anything about the Beatles history, you must know that Paul was the "driving force" behind Pepper (though ironically, John's Pepper work is better imo). That's 1967. You must also know that a strong trait in Paul's character is the need to organize - be "bossy" if you like. Remember in later years John would often comment in interviews how Paul would declare "Time for an album or whatever", and John would have to come up with some songs! Mag Myst Tour (1967!) is certainly down to Paul's push and organization.

Of course the reasons for the break-up were more complex. What I DID say was that, in hindsight, that was the beginning of the end.
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Indica on January 13, 2005, 12:36:47 AM
yes, but it wasn't him being bossy, he was working on the level of their earlier period..thats all. Maybe he was the driving force in Pepper, but at that time, John was still very active in The Beatles recording career etc.
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Mairi on January 13, 2005, 12:57:46 AM
If he was the drivking force in Pepper, I consider that a good thing. If Paul hadn't tried to organize the group they probably would have crumbled soon before they did. John was too preoccupied with other things (namely drugs and Yoko) to care about music at the time.
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on January 13, 2005, 01:21:25 AM
[quote by=IndicaWalrus link=Blah.pl?b=mccartney,m=1105079361,s=47 date=1105576607]yes, but it wasn't him being bossy, he was working on the level of their earlier period..thats all. Maybe he was the driving force in Pepper, but at that time, John was still very active in The Beatles recording career etc.
[/quote]

Oh yes, for sure John was still active in the Beatles recording career. That would only dwindle in late 1968, 1969.
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Indica on January 13, 2005, 01:40:38 AM
I love his works in 68-69.
Stuff like Come Together, Dear Prudence, Yer Blues, I Want You etc.
It was the attitude, and behaviour.
Mccartney obviously had classics, but the attitude..was..spot on, for a band with such supremecy and force as The Beatles.


Ive Got a Feeling..Mccartney's vocal..sums it up for me :)
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on January 13, 2005, 07:17:50 PM
I said John's activity would dwindle in late 1968, 1969. That's late 1968. Therefore, Dear Prudence and Yer Blues don't count.

John's contributions to the Beatles (as opposed to Plastic Ono Band) WRITTEN after the White Album are:
Don't Let me Down (good track)
Dig A Pony (fair)
Everybody Had A Hard Year (uh, ended up as part of I've Got A Feeling)
Come Together (excellent)
I Want You (good)
Because (poor, only the harmony singing is worth while)
Sun King (obvious filler, poor)
Ballad Of J & Y (fair)

This seems to be VERY thin for two albums' worth of conributions.

Other songs were earlier rejects (Mustard, Pam), or recorded earlier (Universe, Bulldog), or not released (eg Suzy Parker).

And what does this mean?

"Ive Got a Feeling..Mccartney's vocal..sums it up for me"

Sums what up?

Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Indica on January 13, 2005, 11:52:02 PM
Sums up Mccartney being a force of the Beatles that was pure, raw and striving. A contrast to the sly, corporate and hating personality he often gets stamped with.

Dear Prudence - Recorded in August 1968 (thus late 68)
Yer Blues - Recorded 13th 14th August -68..thus late.

Maybe Earlier Rejects, but the approach changed.
Its like One After 909, it was reformed, and makes a great version. I wouldn't class earlier songs as rejects, in such a way as it harms Johns Input nature.
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on January 13, 2005, 11:59:12 PM
[quote by=IndicaWalrus link=Blah.pl?b=mccartney,m=1105079361,s=52 date=1105660322]Sums up Mccartney being a force of the Beatles that was pure, raw and striving. A contrast to the sly, corporate and hating personality he often gets stamped with.
[/quote]

Pure? Raw? Striving? Surely you jest, sire.

Sly, corporate, and hating personality? Sly and corporate - oh yes. Hating? That's going too far, I agree. A better word would be bitter or resentful.
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on January 14, 2005, 12:03:12 AM
[quote by=IndicaWalrus link=Blah.pl?b=mccartney,m=1105079361,s=52 date=1105660322]Its like One After 909, it was reformed, and makes a great version. I wouldn't class earlier songs as rejects, in such a way as it harms Johns Input nature.[/quote]

But that's the point. They had been rejects! And they had to look backwards for material because there was little up ahead.
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Indica on January 14, 2005, 12:09:14 AM
listen, the obvious repeated cliche trashy Journalism of Mccarney being the Businessman is blinding you. If anything it was Lennon, with his 'divine' appreciation of Klien...and look what that got them.
Yeah, they might of being shelved* for later, but ehat they done with them, with the even more advanced recording abilities shows that they were wise to put them aside.
Little uphead in terms of the Beatles being a creative 4..but not in terms of individual works..which is what the Beatles were at that point.
Look at Harrison, and what he had in stock.
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: pc31 on January 14, 2005, 12:31:55 AM
[quote by=Ydoll_Gwyn link=Blah.pl?b=mccartney,m=1105079361,s=54 date=1105660992]

But that's the point. They had been rejects! And they had to look backwards for material because there was little up ahead.[/quote]
look backwards???????they looked back because what they had done together worked before,and they could fathom why it didn't still work.if they still knew how to relate to each other with business aside then it could've worked.but they were to worried about "SELF".if anything killed the beatles it was they were for the most part full of themselves at the end.a clash of egos,boys becoming men,men becoming boys either way the dream ended much too quickly for the rest of us.
sometimes it seems shellfish(lobsterish?) to have wanted them to reunite,when we all know dang diddley well they didn't get along that well anymore.
how can you create something artisic if you hate someone involved?its like tk and dumbo doing a record....lol
i am a lennon fan firstly but think the get back concept was the last best idea the beatles had.and that was pauls idea.
so call it what you want....i call messing with the kid.
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: pc31 on January 14, 2005, 12:34:09 AM
oh footnote to all "SELF" transformed into being all about business. and by the way indy i think you used one of my quotes.MY LAWYER WILL BE CONTACTING YOU!!! lol
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Harrison on January 14, 2005, 03:15:48 AM
Meh, I don't care.
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Lenny Pane on January 14, 2005, 10:59:05 AM
[quote by=Ydoll_Gwyn link=Blah.pl?b=mccartney,m=1105079361,s=51 date=1105643870]John's contributions to the Beatles Don't Let me Down (good track)



[/quote]

Good Track ..... i think its a little more than good m8  :o

each to their own i guess  ;)

Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Will Campbell on January 14, 2005, 03:51:46 PM
I agree with Lenny - DLMD is a great track and it's sung with so much conviction....

I fear this thread has gone a little off track (although interesting) - it's not a John vs Paul debate, nor is it about the Beatles break up.  It was simply about other fan's thoughts about the *potential* release of Yesterday on a McCartney "Ballads/Love Songs" album.

Lenny raised a good point earlier about a number of Beatles recordings being released on a Lennon compilation as did another peep (sorry, I'm too lazy to look back!) with a Harrison compilation.  These compilations were obvioulsy approved by the Apple gang.  This particular album however, is being stonewalled by Yoko.

I just happen to agree that although written in its entirety by Paul, it is still a Beatles recording and if there is a dissenter, it shouldn't appear on the album.

Perhaps another thread would be a good place to continue this stimulating discussion?  (I might even contribute, you never know...)
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on January 14, 2005, 08:22:15 PM
I repeat: I understand that Paul wants to put the Beatles recording of Yesterday on the album without acknowledging it as a Beatles recording. THAT is the sticking point, as far as I know.

His argument is that he did it on his own, so it's really a solo recording. The trouble with that, is it denies the input the other three would have had in the song (eg, its arrangement, where to place it on the Help LP, how it should be performed in public, its length etc etc).

The Imagine soundtrack album and Best of George Harrison albums acknowledged Beatle recordings as such.



Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Mairi on January 14, 2005, 08:50:48 PM
Well then he should aknowledge it as a Beatles recording.  I don't see any problem with putting it on the album if he does that. (Besides the fact that it's not really a love song)
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on January 14, 2005, 08:54:21 PM
Yes, Mairi there shouldn't be any problem - the fact that Paul doesn't want to do that speaks volumes about his attitude, doesn't it?

And, btw, I meant to ask you when you said this before - why do you think YESTERDAY isn't a love song? I would have thought that's obvious, but maybe I'm missing something subtle here!
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Mairi on January 14, 2005, 09:00:47 PM
I kind of blame Heather for his recent attitude towards things like this. I know he's done the Yesterday thing in the past, but lately he's been acting like this a lot more. When Linda was alive she didn't treat him like a god- she would usually manage to set him straight when he was going to do something stupid (though not all the time)
Ms. Mills has just been feeding his ego and as far as I can see that is not a good thing.

Yesterday is a sad song! It's not about love- it's about someone who's been dumped!
Well. We don't even know that for sure actually. There has been some speculation as to whether it was written about his mother's death. "I said something wrong"- Could be referring to his comment about "What will we do for money (or was it food?) now?"
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: on January 14, 2005, 09:04:39 PM
Linda was at that time also like that
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Mairi on January 14, 2005, 09:13:39 PM
No, I don't really think so... she thought of him as Paul her husband, and not Beatle Paul.
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: on January 14, 2005, 09:22:37 PM
You know yourself out, you are how old?
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: on January 14, 2005, 09:23:14 PM
Linda was a dominant factor woman
Paul want strong Woman
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on January 14, 2005, 11:28:00 PM
[quote by=Mairi link=Blah.pl?b=mccartney,m=1105079361,s=64 date=1105736447]
Yesterday is a sad song! It's not about love- it's about someone who's been dumped!
Well. We don't even know that for sure actually. There has been some speculation as to whether it was written about his mother's death. "I said something wrong"- Could be referring to his comment about "What will we do for money (or was it food?) now?" [/quote]

Well even if it's about someone being dumped, it's still about love!

The speculation about it being about Paul's mother's death is wrong I feel. It seems like a boy/girl love song to me.
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Ydoll Gwyn on January 14, 2005, 11:31:39 PM
[quote by=Usher_Masher link=Blah.pl?b=mccartney,m=1105079361,s=68 date=1105737794]Linda was a dominant factor woman
Paul want strong Woman[/quote]

I'll disagree with you there, Real-usher-with-a-mashed-dirk. I think Paul wants women HE can dominate. He tried it on Jane Asher, and he got his marching orders.

I think some of the trouble there seems to be between Paul and Heather comes from Paul misjudging how strong Heather Mills is.

Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: tkitna on January 15, 2005, 01:15:06 AM
I'm getting off the subject again, but I dont feel that Heather has anything to do with this. I feel its just his lack of youth and the aging process thats getting to him. I think it also prompted him to marry Heather in the first place. He's 30 years older than she is. I'm not a big Heather fan either as I feel she's an idiot (personal choice) and she's using Paul. Paul doesnt care as he's knocking off a decent piece and he knows he isnt going to be around forever.

Heather ranks just on belt notch above Yoko in my book.
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: tkitna on January 15, 2005, 01:16:30 AM
As for the whole thread subject,,,,,Yoko and Paul will have their personal p*ssing match until the day they die. If they want to act foolish and like children,,,so be it.
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Wayne L. on January 15, 2005, 03:01:10 PM
John & Paul did NOT write togther as much during their Beatles days as some fans would like to think which is why the Lennon/McCartney moniker is just a myth.  I think Paul is right if he wants to use his name only for his Beatles classic Yesterday since he wrote it &  played on it besides it's just Yoko looking for some publicity.
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Lenny Pane on January 21, 2005, 06:58:05 PM
[quote by=Ydoll_Gwyn link=Blah.pl?b=mccartney,m=1105079361,s=70 date=1105745499]

 Real-usher-with-a-mashed-dirk.

[/quote]

WoOt hAhAhAHa... Man i like that . :)

Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Lenny Pane on January 21, 2005, 07:08:58 PM
Oh yeah getting back to the topic....

Guys .... its PAULS song HE wrote it , so therefore he should do what the HELL he likes with it IMO ! Personaly if i was in his shoes i would say stuff you YOKO stuff you JACKO its my song and ill do what ill bloody like with it ... and if you dont like it then SUE ME !
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: on January 21, 2005, 08:19:24 PM
i see nothing porn Mairi
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: sexy sadie on January 22, 2005, 04:07:30 AM
i chose the 3rd choice ;)
Title: Re: What do YOU think?
Post by: Serge on January 23, 2005, 11:11:25 AM
too much monkey business....

But Paul is right and he'll win at last !