DM's Beatles forums
Beatles forums => The Beatles => Topic started by: DaveRam on February 04, 2008, 10:42:37 AM
-
One of the great things about 60's music and why it as such lasting quality , is that there was a healthy climate of rivalry between bands ?
Getting to # 1 really meant something then. With the emergence of The Beatles many bands upted their game and many great records were released during this time.
So who do you think were The Beatles great rivals and why ? For me one of the great unsung rivals to The Beatles is the brilliant song -writing team of " Holland - Dozier - Holland " from the " Tamla Motown " stable .
singles wise they really gave " Lennon and McCartney " a run for their money , between 1962 and 1967 when they left Motown , they had already racked up a brilliant run of world-wide hits , their 10 # 1 songs for " The Supremes " on Billboard between 1964 and 1967 prove they could take on The Beatles ,and thats not including the big hit's they wrote for " The Four Tops " and other artists in the Motown stable.
This rivalry for the top spot in my opinion marks the 60's out as a great decade for music .
Dylan , The Stones ,Tamla Motown , The Who , The Kinks ,The Beach Boys and even Elvis were all battling it out in the charts around the world . I don't think we have seen such rivalry since , it really was a " Golden Age " for music ?
-
I remember reading somewhere that The Beatles and The Stones made agreements on when to release their latest singles in order not to compete on the charts to much.
-
The Beatles loved Motown music and included Motown covers on their debut album. They included Miracles numbers in their repertoie. Here is what I wrote about the Beatles and Smokey Robinson:
Smokey Robinson was a singer/songwriter, born in Detroit, Michigan on 19 February 1940. He founded the Miracles in 1955. While in London he spent an evening in the company of John and Paul at the White Elephant club on 29 November 1964. At the time the Miracles had already recorded You Really Got A Hold On Me, one of Smokey
-
As a Beach Boys fans I'm probably biased, but I think that the most interesting rivalry was between the Beatles and the Beach Boys.
They were not only rivals, but they also inspired each other, copied each other's ideas and raised the bar for each other. Brian Wilson always said that "Pet Sounds" was his attempt at topping "Rubber Soul", while Paul McCartney always said that "Sgt. Pepper" was the Beatles' attempt at topping "Pet Sounds". Who knows what would've happened with both groups if Brian would've managed to finish "Smile" in 1967... People often think that because the Beach Boys' record sales dropped dramatically in 1967 they were no match for the Beatles in the end, but up until 1966 they were still serious competition:
Listen to Paul McCartney, perhaps the records biggest fan. Interviewed in 1990 when it was released on CD, Paul was typically effusive:
-
The Beatles loved Motown music and included Motown covers on their debut album. They included Miracles numbers in their repertoie. Here is what I wrote about the Beatles and Smokey Robinson:
Smokey Robinson was a singer/songwriter, born in Detroit, Michigan on 19 February 1940. He founded the Miracles in 1955. While in London he spent an evening in the company of John and Paul at the White Elephant club on 29 November 1964. At the time the Miracles had already recorded You Really Got A Hold On Me, one of Smokey
-
Bill, what a gorgeous post about Smokey Robinson. I feel all warm and happy. :)
Joost, I'm sorry, but I can't comment. I'm dead ignorant about the Beach Boys.
-
In contrast to Smokey, what do you think of what Cliff Richard has said about the Beatles:
Cliff Richard has blasted The Beatles' musicianship - branding their guitar solos "horrific." The veteran crooner dominated the British music charts when the Fab Four first appeared on the music scene in 1962 - and is in disbelief their poor guitar playing was deemed sufficient enough to be included on their debut album.
He says, "Some of the guitar is so out of tune it's unbelievable. I couldn't believe that here they were in this hi-tech age and they couldn't go back and do it with a tuned guitar."
And the 67-year-old insists he has enough hit records to back up his claims, adding: "I've sold more singles than... everybody."
-
And the 67-year-old insists he has enough hit records to back up his claims, adding: "I've sold more singles than... everybody."
Yes Cliff, but you didn't write any of them, or play anything on them.
-
Yes Cliff, but you didn't write any of them, or play anything on them.
It is quite impressive though that he had number 1 hits in FIVE different decades... And he still has two years to make that six decades.
Another fact I found about Sir Cliff was actually quite disturbing:
Cliff Richard has scored fourteen #1 singles in the UK, more than any other artist other than Elvis Presley, the Beatles, and Westlife.
:X
-
I remember the programme which showed Cliff as the best selling singles artist in the Uk , and yes he was by about half a million over The Beatles , but when you add John's 2 million total to The Beatles total and Paul's impressive 9 ,500, 000 million to The Beatles total , he slips to 3rd place in the ranking .
Paul ,30 million
John ,22 ,500 ,000 million
Cliff ,21 million
The Beatles 20 ,500 ,000 million
Is their enough 000 's there ? i was never any good with figures :D but either way your 3rd Cliff :P ;D
-
Enjoyed your post on Smokey Bill , i was listening to Smokey yesterday " Shop Around " what a great record :)
-
I would say Motown were " The Beatles " main rival sales wise ? , the record lable really shifted some impressive units in the 60's , " The Supremes " were the 3rd best selling act on Billboard behind " The Beatles " and " Elvis " in the 60's .
12 US # 1 singles by " The Supremes " between 1964 and 1969 is a very impressive total ?
-
There doesn't really seem to have been a major threat to The Beatles from within the UK. I'd have to agree with Dave that the biggest threat seems to have come from the hit machine that was Motown. And I'm sure I read somewhere that in one year (65 or 66?) The Beach Boys outsold The Beatles in the UK. Joost should know.
-
And I'm sure I read somewhere that in one year (65 or 66?) The Beach Boys outsold The Beatles in the UK. Joost should know.
I'm pretty sure that the Beach Boys never outsold the Beatles anywhere. They did beat the Beatles in a British popularity poll in 1966, maybe that's what you're thinking of?
-
Ive been looking at the top 10 album acts during The Beatles period , here's the list of their rivals and how they did on the UK album chart between 1963 and 1970 :)
1) The Beatles - 13 albums - 11 # 1's - weeks on Uk album chart - 675 weeks
2) Simon and Garfunkle - 6 albums - 2 # 1's - weeks on UK album chart - 628 weeks ( Bridge Over Troubled Water 1970 ) accounts for half this total and hung around until the mid 70's .
3) The Beach Boys - 11 albums , none of which went to # 1 - weeks on UK album chart - 361 weeks
4) Tom Jones - 9 albums -1 # 1 - weeks on the UK album chart - 322 weeks
5) The Shadows - 12 albums - 2 # 1's -weeks on UK album chart - 315 weeks
6) Bob Dylan - 11 albums - 6 # 1's - weeks on UK album chart - 312 weeks
7) The Rolling Stones -10 albums - 5 # 1's -weeks on UK album chart - 311 weeks
8 / The Seekers - 4 albums - 1 # 1 - weeks on UK album chart - 261 weeks
9) Elvis - 13 albums - 1 # 1 - weeks on Uk album chart - 261 weeks
10) Cliff Richard - 9 albums - 1 # 1 - weeks on UK album chart - 195 weeks
Simon and Garfunkle , Dylan and the Stones look to be their main rivals when it comes to albums :)
-
Certainly they had their influences - the Beach Boys point is a good one especially - but I feel like after they broke the Atlantic barrier, the lads didn't so much have to worry about rivals. I'd say their biggest worry when they headed to the US was the Beach Boys because they were so popular over there at that time, but otherwise everyone else was just following after them in England, and the biggest acts there were playing other stuff at the time because the big-selling acts had to be original enough that they wouldn't be taken for imitations. The Stones and The Who were playing the blues, Dylan was openly political and had a completely different sound...in terms of their genre at the time of the US visit, they didn't have any competition, and when they started branching out, they were still the forerunners of things.
Probably the period where they should have been most worried about rivals is during the making of Sgt. Pepper, when people were starting to refer to them as old hat since they hadn't put anything out for a while after Revolver, but as we all know they weren't idling about at that time and really didn't have anything to worry about.
-
The Beach Boys weren't so much the Beatles' rivals when it came to record sales, but more on an artistic level. Brian Wilson and Paul McCartney have both said on many occasions that they were intimidated by how good each new album of the other band was. They had a friendly but pretty tough competition going.
Funny thing though is that Brian Wilson always says that he didn't see the Beatles as his main rivals, but Phil Spector. But that could partially be because the Beatles openly admired him while Spector seemed to enjoy bringing him down.
-
Some Motown figures from the 1960's
Billboard singles chart
174 top 40 singles
80 top 10 hits
19 # 1 records
UK singles chart
93 hit singles
34 top 10 hits
4 # 1 records
I may have missed the odd record , but i think it illustrates Motown were a hit making machine during The Beatles period , and continued to be throughout the 70's :)
-
Of course the original 'Rivals of the Beatles' were the groups they competed with on their home ground in the days before they recorded. They competed to get the various numbers in their reportoire (before the Lennon/McCartney songs got off the ground), with Epstein even asking groups not to do certain numbers because the Beatles wanted to include them in their repertoire. In fact, on John's wedding night they were appearing on a bill with the Remo Four and John had an argument with them because they used a number the Beatles used to play.
They competed at the Cavern, Litherland Town Hall, Lathom Hall, Aintree Institute and other venues with great groups such as Kingsize Taylor & the Dominoes, the Big Three, Gerry & the Pacemakers, the Searchers, the Strangers, the Remo Four (one of Paul's favourite groups, he used to go down to the Cavern on his nights off just to see them), Rory Storm & the Hurricanes etc
-
Of course the original 'Rivals of the Beatles' were the groups they competed with on their home ground in the days before they recorded. They competed to get the various numbers in their reportoire (before the Lennon/McCartney songs got off the ground), with Epstein even asking groups not to do certain numbers because the Beatles wanted to include them in their repertoire. In fact, on John's wedding night they were appearing on a bill with the Remo Four and John had an argument with them because they used a number the Beatles used to play.
They competed at the Cavern, Litherland Town Hall, Lathom Hall, Aintree Institute and other venues with great groups such as Kingsize Taylor & the Dominoes, the Big Three, Gerry & the Pacemakers, the Searchers, the Strangers, the Remo Four (one of Paul's favourite groups, he used to go down to the Cavern on his nights off just to see them), Rory Storm & the Hurricanes etc
Maybe this is the reason that they played (and later recorded) some pretty obscure stuff?
-
Yes, particularly the Motown numbers. If you want I could let you know the entire story of the Mersey Motown sound
-
Yes, particularly the Motown numbers. If you want I could let you know the entire story of the Mersey Motown sound
I think that would make a great read Bill. Thanks.
-
One of the major musical influences on the Liverpool groups at the beginning of the 1960s was the Tamla Motown label, created in Detroit by Berry Gordy Junior in 1959. Berry had originally derived the name Tamla from a Debbie Reynolds film 'Tammy' and Motown was an abbreviation of the nickname of Detroit: Motor City. Berry actually used the name Tamla as a label in America in 1959 and Motown in 1961. The name Tamla Motown was used on the European releases.
In Britain in 1962, Tamla Motown was distributed by a small record label, Oriole, and the largest market for the records by the Detroit groups was on Merseyside.
At that time I began to feature Motown regularly in Mersey Beat, profiling the artists and reviewing the latest releases. Oriole Records began to take half page advertisements due to the interest aroused by the label in Liverpool.
When I received the latest Motown singles I'd take them down to the Cavern and ask Bob Wooler to play them. When I took 'Fingertips' by Little Stevie Wonder, Ringo was there and asked me if he could have the record. I gave it to him. When, shortly after, he told me that it was his favourite record I told John Schroeder of Oriole who arranged for a complete Tamla Motown collection to be sent to Ringo.
The Tamla Motown numbers were included in the repertoire of the Liverpool bands. They adapted the songs to fit in with the developing Liverpool sound, the basic three guitars/drums/harmony line-up which produced a hybrid sound, known locally as 'the Mersey Motown sound.'
This particular sound found its way on record when a number of Mersey acts recorded their own versions of Motown numbers. Faron's Flamingos recorded 'Do You Love Me' and 'Shake Sherry', Ian & the Zodiacs with 'Beechwood 45786', 'Beryl Marsden with 'When The Love Light Shines', Steve Aldo with 'Can I Get A Witness', The Trends with 'You're A Wonderful One', the Dimensions with 'Tears On My Pillow' and so on. Numbers such as 'Money' were also part of the repertoire of numerous Mersey bands such as the Searchers, Undertakers, Dominoes and All Stars.
Differing from the Mersey-Motown sound was the straight Motown-sounding presentation of numbers by local black vocal group the Chants. I lent them my albums of the Miracles and the Marvellettes which they literally wore out by playing them so often!
In 1963 the Motown distribution in Britain went to EMI's Stateside label and Motown artists soon began to have their first British hits, particularly since the Beatles had begun to mention the Motown artists in interviews. 1963 is the year in which the Beatles made their own Mersey-Motown recordings, with no less than three Motown numbers on their 'With The Beatles' album: 'Please Mr. Postman', 'You Really Got A Hold On Me' and 'Money (That's What I Want).' When Smokey Robinson heard that they'd recorded his composition 'You Really Got A Hold On Me', he said, "When they recorded it, it was one of the most flattering things that ever happened to me' I listened to it over and over again, not to criticize, but to enjoy it." He was also to comment, "They were not only respectful of us, they were downright worshipful. Whenever reporters asked them about their influences, they'd go into euphoria about Motown. I dig them, not only for their songwriting talent, but for their honesty."
The Beatles also requested that Mary Wells be included on their autumn tour of Britain in 1964. When I interviewed Mary backstage she asked me if I could get her a Lennon & McCartney number to record. I went for a chat with John and told him and he said he'd write one for her, but he didn't in the end. Mary was later to pay her own tribute to the Beatles with an album of Lennon & McCartney songs, 'Love Songs To The Beatles.' Diana Ross & the Supremes, Gladys Knight & the Pips and Jimmy Ruffin were among several Motown artists who began to record Lennon & McCartney material, a sort of Motown-Mersey sound! Brian Epstein also became a fan of Motown artists and brought the Four Tops over to Britain to tour. Paul McCartney was later to forge a close association with Motown artists, recording 'Ebony and Ivory' with Stevie Wonder and 'This Girl Is Mine', 'Say Say Say' and 'The Man' with Michael Jackson.
When promoters Peter Bletchford and Jeff Hale invited Mike and Rowena McCartney and Virginia and I to attend a convention in Detroit, Martha Reeves took us around the Motown Museum where we discovered that, ironically, the only reference to the Mersey Motown Sound was an inaccurate one. There is a picture of the Dave Clark Five with the Supremes which is captioned 'Liverpool Meets Detroit.
Although the rock 'n' roll influences of rock artists such as Carl Perkins, Little Richard, Jerry Lee Lewis, Chuck Berry and other musicians have been acknowledged in the history of the Mersey Sound, little has been told of the effect Motown acts had on the Liverpool artists. A&R man John Schroeder provided me with some of his memories
-
Excellent stuff Bill. Is the old Cunard Yanks handing out unavailable 45's to scouse urchins story just a myth? I take it most american music was available if you knew where to look?
-
Yes, the Cunard Yanks story is a myth. Obviously, some of the Stewarts on ships brought presents, including records to younger brothers, but this had no real influence on the scene as every number covered by a Mersey band was available from record shops. Every number performed by the Beatles, apart from their own compositions, was available on record in Liverpool. To try to get an edge Kingsize Taylor wrote to Chess Records in America for their catalogue, Earl Preston used to get records from his brother-in-law at the Burtonwood American base outside Liverpool and the Undertakers used to buy records at markets.
Incidentally, you might be interested in this:
In Helen Shapiro
-
You're right - It was interesting.
It fascinates me how quickly and easily fiction becomes fact.
-
8 / The Seekers - 4 albums - 1 # 1 - weeks on UK album chart - 261 weeks
:-/
-
^I really enjoyed The Seekers back then. Great songs and great vocals. Morningtown Ride still makes me go a bit weepy.
-
^I really enjoyed The Seekers back then. Great songs and great vocals. Morningtown Ride still makes me go a bit weepy.
The always sounded worryingly like one of those 'God Squad' groups to me. Like at any moment one of them was going to try and sell me religion!