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Author Topic: Big Bang v Big Man (or Woman)  (Read 27965 times)

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Kevin

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Re: Big Bang v Big Man (or Woman)
« Reply #60 on: July 22, 2009, 10:03:51 AM »

 :)
I especially like the bilbe story of Abraham. To test his loyalty God tells him to murder his own son. Poor old Abraham drags little Isaac up a mountain and is just about to slit his throat (how terrified are these people at this point?) and only at the last moment God sends a messenger to tell him he needn't bother.
What kind of insecure power-freak does that?  He sounds more like a character from The Godfather than the light of truth and love.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 10:07:31 AM by Kevin »
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DaveRam

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Re: Big Bang v Big Man (or Woman)
« Reply #61 on: July 22, 2009, 10:11:46 AM »

^^^^ Such wonderful stories Kevin , wonder if you would get them published in today's PC world ? me thinks not  ;D
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Kevin

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Re: Big Bang v Big Man (or Woman)
« Reply #62 on: July 22, 2009, 10:17:13 AM »

Oh, and here God orders a bit of mass murder:

Exodus 32:27-29 (King James Version)
 27And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
 28And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
29For Moses had said, Consecrate yourselves today to the LORD, even every man upon his son, and upon his brother; that he may bestow upon you a blessing this day.


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Kevin

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Re: Big Bang v Big Man (or Woman)
« Reply #63 on: July 22, 2009, 10:35:04 AM »

Last one. Genesis 11.
The people (who are united and speak one language) decide to build a tower to reach heaven. God checks it and thinks "Bugger this, if they reach heaven they'll become omnipotent too and then that's me f*cked." So he scatters them and gives them different languages so they'll never unite again.
Good move God. You've just set up mankind for thousands of years of strife and war, but at least your monopoly on power has been secured.
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Kevin

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Re: Big Bang v Big Man (or Woman)
« Reply #64 on: July 22, 2009, 10:57:44 AM »

I think Jesus inherited a bit of his dad's paranoia and power issues:

Matthew 34:
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.       
10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 
10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 
10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 
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Mairi

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Re: Big Bang v Big Man (or Woman)
« Reply #65 on: July 23, 2009, 12:44:35 AM »

:)
I especially like the bilbe story of Abraham. To test his loyalty God tells him to murder his own son. Poor old Abraham drags little Isaac up a mountain and is just about to slit his throat (how terrified are these people at this point?) and only at the last moment God sends a messenger to tell him he needn't bother.
What kind of insecure power-freak does that?  He sounds more like a character from The Godfather than the light of truth and love.


This is is going to sound kind of weird, but when I was a kid I watched this anime video bible series called Superbook. It was about two kids and their robot friend who went on bible adventures with the help of a magical talking Bible. I am completely serious.

Anyway, that was one of the stories they animated, and it was one of my favourites! Now that I think about it, it was a pretty weird thing for a kid to love. I also liked the one about Jacob and Esau, but I think that had more to do with my own older sibling-inferiority complex.
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Kevin

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Re: Big Bang v Big Man (or Woman)
« Reply #66 on: July 23, 2009, 08:18:37 AM »

This is is going to sound kind of weird,

hi Mairi - I'd be dissapointed if you sounded anything else.
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Mairi

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Re: Big Bang v Big Man (or Woman)
« Reply #67 on: July 23, 2009, 09:48:39 PM »

Thanks Kevin, and don't worry, I will never dissapoint you.
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Jane

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Re: Big Bang v Big Man (or Woman)
« Reply #68 on: July 24, 2009, 09:12:07 PM »

BTW religion is also the thing that keeps certain people together, people of some nationality. It saves their way of life, their view on the world, on how things should be. If you give it up you will lose this thin but very important spiritual link and you may even lose your way of life. It`s all not that simple.
The Soviet Union lived without religion for 70 years, from 1917-1987. And what happened? Other people filled in the gap, cause people need something to live by, some religion or ideology. This ideology became marxism-leninism, imposed by the scoundrels, who had nothing to do with the native nationalities but who knew pretty well the unifying power of religion. Of course, they prohibited it, crashed and destroyed the churches, and people couldn`t go to church, couldn`t pray, and started to forget their traditions which are also kept by church. Mind that the gap will never be empty, either politicians will fill it in with some theory which is certainly much worse than any religion, cause it will serve the needs of these politicians, who crave for power, who are always dirty; or some other ideology or even religion will take the place of yours (and some will turn in the case of the loss of your religion to the other ones) don`t even doubt it. Either way you will have to live by something. It`s better to stand by something that is yours and not invented by some aliens or just very imperfect humans. So think twice before...
As far as I can see the West has lost its religion, it believes in nothing, it doesn`t have anything that is to be saved, to be considered sacred, it doesn`t believe in a man`s soul. The West has become increasingly material, the only thing that is important is money, dollars. What else? Please, tell me. Even LOVE between man and woman, which is the most beautiful thing in the world, соль земли - the basis of life and everything is not sacred any more there. It`s only materialism that counts and thus - money, comfortable spiritless life, consumerism, sex without love (we have no souls only body), drugs. Very sad.
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Kevin

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Re: Big Bang v Big Man (or Woman)
« Reply #69 on: July 25, 2009, 09:42:44 AM »

^ I agree with you totally Jane. I've said all along that religion is a very important evolutionary tool, binding communities together. And religion provides obvious comfort to many. i don't knock that.
Buit it still defeats me how obviously educated, logical, intelligent people like yourself can believe that life was created and ruled by some supernatural being, for who despite all his so called powers not one jot of evidence of his existance exists. Yet you all continue to fall to your knees and almost beg for his love. You should be stronger than that.
Besides, if tomorrow you did prove God's existance I'd think s/he was an absolute ass and would rather burn in hell than kowtow to such an obviously demented, paranoid tyrant. "Love me or suffer forever" indeed.
Oh, and I know to aethism gave us Hitler.  And humans without religion seems a bit...unhuman.
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Sondra

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Re: Big Bang v Big Man (or Woman)
« Reply #70 on: July 25, 2009, 10:35:42 AM »

I don't know, but I don't understand why, if you're educated and intelligent, this means you shouldn't have faith in a higher power. Like you should know better or something. The bible is not meant to be taken literally. It has nothing to do with the science of things. I think it's very sweet that people can have that kind of faith. It's at least one tiny thing that remains unjaded in them.

Also, times were SOOOO different back then and people were a lot crueler in general. I mean, how can you possibly make judgment on something that supposedly took place in a world we could NEVER relate to! I mean, people crucified and tortured other people and this was thought to be normal. Throwing people to the lions. How about that? It just isn't the same. So comprehending a scripture that was written at a time when people were pretty barbaric, probably has a bearing on things. But still, if you read the new testament, Jesus sounds like a hippie. His words are very beautiful.

Again, I can't bring myself to believe, but I don't feel that I know enough about this universe to arrogantly say that those with faith are stupid or that there isn't some higher power. We still know SO little about how things work. Always keep an open mind. Or something!

PS
If I haven't totally annoyed you Kevin, maybe we'll have another dance sometime. ;D
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Kevin

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Re: Big Bang v Big Man (or Woman)
« Reply #71 on: July 25, 2009, 11:43:14 AM »

PS
If I haven't totally annoyed you Kevin, maybe we'll have another dance sometime. ;D

Annoy me!! I'd rather have some one violently disagree with me than have no opinion at all. I looove arguing, I mean debating.
I saw a documentary last night "Don't Be Denied - The Neil Young story." Nils Lofgren was in it, though he wasn't fat. If I go to sleep thinking of pimperknickels.......
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Jane

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Re: Big Bang v Big Man (or Woman)
« Reply #72 on: July 25, 2009, 09:35:14 PM »

Buit it still defeats me how obviously educated, logical, intelligent people like yourself can believe that life was created and ruled by some supernatural being, for who despite all his so called powers not one jot of evidence of his existance exists. Yet you all continue to fall to your knees and almost beg for his love. You should be stronger than that.
Oh, and I know to aethism gave us Hitler.  And humans without religion seems a bit...unhuman.

Kevin! You are right when you ask the question how can educated people believe in God. I think there are different ways to believe. Common people, not very educated, just believe in him literally, for example as a man sitting on a cloud, and take every word he said as it is. But the most interesting thing is that when you start to think about it all, you open horizons and treasures of wisdom contained in the phase or even one single word. Educated people think about their faith differently, more deeply.
No ideology can substitute it, or it will only repeat it again (but will be said by an ordinary man, again a politician) like the Moral Code Of A Communist does. Imagine that! There was such a code for the Soviet people, because there was nothing, no religion, as it was destroyed, but people had to have some moral values, some spiritual values. So the Code was invented, and it contained practically the same statements or what do you call them, as the Bible in its commandments. Cause nothing better has yet been invented or given to humanity than the ideas in the Bible. They are pure wisdom, they have been tested by times, they are above social order, they have survived. If you accept the code than you believe your leader, who created it and presented it to you. But why should I believe him, or in him? He is just human, imperfect, sinful, he is definitely corrupted. Why does he create spiritual values for me? Maybe I should create spiritual values for him! And thus in a society there appear special people who take charge of your soul, but again who said they are spiritual people and are you sure they do not pursue some personal aims? I`d better believe in a perfect being, who is devoid of all these things, and believe a clergyman, who has nothing to do with the government.
Frankly, I do not think much about whether God exists or not, I do not think about who created life, because this puzzle can never be solved, but I doubt very much that we descended from apes, who started working, and turned into humans - to me this is absurd, I do not fall to my knees, as you say, but deep in my soul I do want to believe. Maybe weak people want to find comfort in God, but strong people do not seek it. Strong people think, like you do. Strong people do everything themselves, rely on themselves, but they think, which is good and doubt, which can`t be bad. Like some ancient said: I doubt and so I exist.
Humans without religion are not inhuman, but they have to have something to abide by, some principles then, some positive principles. Can they be strong enough to stand by their principles? If yes, then it`s ok. All their lives people try to come to terms with themselves. But how?
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Jane

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Re: Big Bang v Big Man (or Woman)
« Reply #73 on: July 25, 2009, 09:42:08 PM »

I don't know, but I don't understand why, if you're educated and intelligent, this means you shouldn't have faith in a higher power. Like you should know better or something. The bible is not meant to be taken literally. It has nothing to do with the science of things.
But still, if you read the new testament, Jesus sounds like a hippie. His words are very beautiful.
Again, I can't bring myself to believe, but I don't feel that I know enough about this universe to arrogantly say that those with faith are stupid or that there isn't some higher power. We still know SO little about how things work.

I agree with everything said above. And Jesus indeed sounds like a hippie! He was so unusual! So modern! Nothing better has been said yet.

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Sondra

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Re: Big Bang v Big Man (or Woman)
« Reply #74 on: July 25, 2009, 11:57:39 PM »

Kevin! You are right when you ask the question how can educated people believe in God. I think there are different ways to believe. Common people, not very educated, just believe in him literally, for example as a man sitting on a cloud, and take every word he said as it is. But the most interesting thing is that when you start to think about it all, you open horizons and treasures of wisdom contained in the phase or even one single word. Educated people think about their faith differently, more deeply.
No ideology can substitute it, or it will only repeat it again (but will be said by an ordinary man, again a politician) like the Moral Code Of A Communist does. Imagine that! There was such a code for the Soviet people, because there was nothing, no religion, as it was destroyed, but people had to have some moral values, some spiritual values. So the Code was invented, and it contained practically the same statements or what do you call them, as the Bible in its commandments. Cause nothing better has yet been invented or given to humanity than the ideas in the Bible. They are pure wisdom, they have been tested by times, they are above social order, they have survived. If you accept the code than you believe your leader, who created it and presented it to you. But why should I believe him, or in him? He is just human, imperfect, sinful, he is definitely corrupted. Why does he create spiritual values for me? Maybe I should create spiritual values for him! And thus in a society there appear special people who take charge of your soul, but again who said they are spiritual people and are you sure they do not pursue some personal aims? I`d better believe in a perfect being, who is devoid of all these things, and believe a clergyman, who has nothing to do with the government.



That's a great perspective on things. And I can never understand why intelligent people CANNOT bend enough to see that this is a good way to look at it. Die hard atheists are just as stubborn and rude as militant Christians. Plus they have that extra air of smugness to them that is somewhat nauseating.
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DaveRam

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Re: Big Bang v Big Man (or Woman)
« Reply #75 on: July 26, 2009, 12:38:20 PM »

Common people and people who may not have had a great education can have just as much faith as someone who as wealth and great learning ?
Faith is not elitist in that way , it's for everyone if you want to believe in it .
 
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Sondra

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Re: Big Bang v Big Man (or Woman)
« Reply #76 on: July 27, 2009, 12:52:35 AM »

"I think it illogical to disbelieve anything we are unable to disprove."
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Kevin

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Re: Big Bang v Big Man (or Woman)
« Reply #77 on: July 27, 2009, 08:21:31 AM »

"I think it illogical to disbelieve anything we are unable to disprove."

Sorry Sondra but that's silly, and such a cop out. Can you disprove vampires, fairies, goblins or leprechauns? By your logic it is illogical to disbelieve in these things.
How about I say to you there's a two headed green monster living in my attic? You can't disprove it. Therefore you must believe in it? Surely the onus is on me to provide proof.

I completely understand the benefits that religion bestows on individuals and society. I know the secular alternative isn't that wonderful either. But still.....fairies are a nice idea too. But rational adults (I hope) go "hang on, if there were fairies then......" But you seem able to suspend this kind of logic when it comes to this god person.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 08:57:16 AM by Kevin »
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Sondra

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Re: Big Bang v Big Man (or Woman)
« Reply #78 on: July 27, 2009, 08:42:02 AM »

"I believe in everything until it's disproved. So I believe in fairies, the myths, dragons. It all exists, even if it's in your mind."

;D
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Sondra

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Re: Big Bang v Big Man (or Woman)
« Reply #79 on: July 27, 2009, 08:42:23 AM »

You see what I'm doing here, right?
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