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Author Topic: The Beatles As Solo Artists  (Read 17903 times)

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oldbrownshoe

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Re: The Beatles As Solo Artists
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2014, 08:23:16 AM »

Erm.....I care who wrote the various Tamla-Motown songs.

And please, not that old chestnut about covers of Dylan's stuff being better than his own!
Exactly which version of 'Desolation Row' is better than Dylan's version of 'Desolation Row'? I must have missed than one.
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tkitna

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Re: The Beatles As Solo Artists
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2014, 09:41:10 AM »

Erm.....I care who wrote the various Tamla-Motown songs.


I would have to say that you are in the minority, wouldn't you agree?

Quote
And please, not that old chestnut about covers of Dylan's stuff being better than his own!


Sorry, but that's how I feel.  Hate Dylans singing.  I hate it so much that he sang two songs at a Paul Simon concert and I left.  That's how bad he is.  Let me list a few of his songs I think other people do better.

Cripes, they are all better.  Here's the list.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_artists_who_have_covered_Bob_Dylan_songs

Quote
Exactly which version of 'Desolation Row' is better than Dylan's version of 'Desolation Row'? I must have missed than one.


I don't like the song so I doubt I would listen to it regardless of who covered it.

Ovi

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Re: The Beatles As Solo Artists
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2014, 02:37:03 PM »

I've learned to find time and place for both Lennon and McCartney solo. The former's highs are higher I think, his best songs can hit you harder when you're expecting the least. I usually take him in smaller quantities. I think only POB and Imagine hold up as albums from beginning to end, while the rest of his output works better if listened to in terms of individual songs. The compilations work better than most of his albums too, sometimes I think of Lennon as a singles artist - Cold Turkey, Instant Karma, Mother, Imagine, Happy Xmas, Woman is the black person of the World, Mind Games, #9 Dream, Stand By Me, Starting Over, Woman. That's a pretty good run if you ask me.

McCartney wins when it comes to quantity and overall accessibility. I can listen to his songs anytime, anyplace. Well-written, well-arranged, well-played, well-sung, memorable pop tunes. I love pop and am not embarrassed to admit it. He carried on the Beatles tradition of genre-hopping and diversity which I just love. I do find many parallels between with and the aforementioned Elton John, another one of my favourite artists. And goddamn it, his music can be emotional, even if the lyrics are about nothing. Things like Little Lamb Dragonfly or Uncle Albert are just heartbreaking. But then again, I don't think he has something as powerful, original and intense as Lennon's 'God' in him.

But that's fine, really. There's room for both and it's not like they are diametrically opposed - there's plenty of cheesy, substance-free songs in Lennon's catalog as there are emotionally-gripping melodies in McCartney's. I'll take them both.

Haven't heard much of George and Ringo's stuff yet.
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Ovi

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Re: The Beatles As Solo Artists
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2014, 02:49:49 PM »

And I must be crazy, but there's not a single Dylan cover that I prefer over the original. I do like Hendrix's 'All Along the Watchtower' a lot, but it's so different from the original that I don't think the comparison is fair.
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Mr Mustard

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Re: The Beatles As Solo Artists
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2014, 10:19:21 PM »

I can't readily think of a "singer-songwriter" I'm mad keen on to be honest... bits of Elton John, David Bowie, Neil Diamond, Cat Stevens, Neil Young, Paul Simon, Neil Sedaka, Carol King, Joni Mitchell...are very good. Would struggle to sit through an entire album by any of them though. Dylan - awesome canon of work but as Todd says, invariably covered better by other artists. Great songwriter, awful singer (there's a reason that some cliches are "old chestnuts" - they've been demonstrably true to too many people for too many years to be ignored!)

Regarding the "singer" part of the equation, both John and Paul blew all those mentioned out of the water for me.

Regarding the "songwriter" element, again, Lennon and/or McCartney when on fire were better overall than any of them (including Dylan) with such astonishing breadth and style.

And yet... as solo artists ALL four Beatles slightly disappoint if I'm honest - always felt they were rarely firing on all cylinders (with the exception of a few albums) but perhaps that's because I know what they were capable of when their talents combined. I always felt each of their post-Beatle extremes would have been balanced, curbed and channelled by the input/presence of the others.

Paul was the most versatile and prolific, and the keenest live performer, he would have been up there with the best in my opinion. But he spent too much of his early solo career trying too hard to please an audience desperate for "Beatle-lite" product in the vacuum of the 70s. And when I say "solo" career it's ironic how he - arguably with the greatest all round capability of the four - needed the supportive cocoon of a group around him for a full decade after the split.

John was such a magnetic, eccentric, unpredictably gifted individual (and a better musician than sometimes credited) I think he'd have been a big success in the singer-songwriter mould. Conversely to Paul, he didn't care enough about his listening public though, preferring to eschew commercial/accessible radio-friendly hits (which he could've written standing on his head) for ever more personal material which sometimes hit the mark perfectly but often went way wide. John wasn't the lazy Beatle, he was the restless one; when he got bored of "Beatles", pop records or even fame he just jettisoned them and moved on and if you didn't like it, tough!

George wasn't in the same league as Lennon or McCartney as a vocalist. For a time he could more than hold his own as a songwriter (though never on the scale of consistent quality achievable by those two) yet even more than John, he wanted to use his fame and success as a stepping stone to abandon populism (for much of the 70s at least) and urgently preach his own philosophy to the listener. Very chequered output then; at his best, a credible singer/songwriter but a mostly reluctant performer not interested enough in wanting to be one to be honest.

Ringo personified the bonhomie which helps to carry a live show and whilst lacking the talent of, say, Stephen Stills, Eric Clapton or James Taylor, had more "presence" and star quality than the three of them put together. Very limited both as a singer and a songwriter, he relied on a web of support and if it wasn't for the fact he was a Beatle - his passport to immortality - wouldn't seriously figure in the debate alongside those artists already mentioned. Still made some belting records though!!!!
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nimrod

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Re: The Beatles As Solo Artists
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2014, 10:28:27 PM »

Ringo personified the bonhomie which helps to carry a live show and whilst lacking the talent of, say, Stephen Stills, Eric Clapton or James Taylor, had more "presence" and star quality than the three of them put together.

How do you mean MrM?

I mean Clapton filled the Royal Albert for 14 in a row nights in the 90's and he fills huge venues all over the world, how is Ringo blessed with more star quality than that?
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Mr Mustard

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Re: The Beatles As Solo Artists
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2014, 10:39:08 PM »

I think the best way I can sum it up is... you know that frisson of recognition when you see somebody really famous? That little inward sort of "Oh My God!" gasp? Well I think Ringo (like the other three fabs) had and still has that kind of aura (and no, I haven't met him, but his - as I say - "presence" - just seems to shine through, even from a TV screen). I don't think Clapton has that - it's different to popularity; I'm not surprised how he can fill the venues like you say. He's a terrific musician who has released some wonderful songs but - well, to me he'll always be a glorified session musician. Musically very accomplished (no great singer mind!) but somehow not a "star"...I dunno, almost bland. It's a charisma thing I think. Ringo seems to have it by the bucketload.

But then again, I'm biased ;)
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tkitna

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Re: The Beatles As Solo Artists
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2014, 12:08:06 AM »

I know exactly what your talking about Mr.M.  Clapton has the star presence of drying paint. All the talent in the world, but a front man he is not.  He is better suited sitting on a stool and taking his leads when the time comes while somebody else arouses the crowd.  Ringo can light up a room while Clapton is the one sitting in the corner.

Hello Goodbye

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Re: The Beatles As Solo Artists
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2014, 12:48:17 AM »

I know exactly what your talking about Mr.M.  Clapton has the star presence of drying paint. All the talent in the world, but a front man he is not.  He is better suited sitting on a stool and taking his leads when the time comes while somebody else arouses the crowd.  Ringo can light up a room while Clapton is the one sitting in the corner.


I guess it's hard to boogie around flashing peace signs with both hands and play guitar at the same time...


Cream - White Room (Royal Albert Hall 2005) (17 of 22)

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nimrod

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Re: The Beatles As Solo Artists
« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2014, 01:00:24 AM »

I think the best way I can sum it up is... you know that frisson of recognition when you see somebody really famous? That little inward sort of "Oh My God!" gasp? Well I think Ringo (like the other three fabs) had and still has that kind of aura (and no, I haven't met him, but his - as I say - "presence" - just seems to shine through, even from a TV screen). I don't think Clapton has that - it's different to popularity; I'm not surprised how he can fill the venues like you say. He's a terrific musician who has released some wonderful songs but - well, to me he'll always be a glorified session musician. Musically very accomplished (no great singer mind!) but somehow not a "star"...I dunno, almost bland. It's a charisma thing I think. Ringo seems to have it by the bucketload.

But then again, I'm biased ;)

I have absolutely no idea what your talking about, how many solo artists could fill the Royal Albert Hall every night for 14 nights?

Im sure superstar Ringo couldnt (or maybe you honestly think he could?)

he even has to lure people in for one night with an all star band

Eric is one of the biggest name solo artists in the world, you dont need to dance around the stage singing pub songs like Your Sixteen or Photograph to a bunch of old women to be a star, some people prefer real music.

To be honest I think you and Todd are talking through your respective arses (nothing new for Todd but expected more of you Mr M  ha2ha)
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blmeanie

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Re: The Beatles As Solo Artists
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2014, 02:02:04 AM »


To be honest I think you and Todd are talking through your respective arses (nothing new for Todd but expected more of you Mr M  ha2ha)

 partypeople
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Mr Mustard

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Re: The Beatles As Solo Artists
« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2014, 02:09:51 AM »

I have absolutely no idea what your talking about

Yes you do. I've already said it once and Todd's underlined it. So this time, I'll spell it out:

C-H-A-R-I-S-M-A

Very tricky to define, but to be sure Ringo has loads of it, Clapton hasn't.

That's very different to saying Clapton hasn't got talent - clearly he has, that's why he fills the Albert Hall with people like yourself who appreciate "real" music (whatever THAT'S meant to mean). But the man himself's a bore. Call me shallow but I'm still impressed by old fashioned STAR quality. If only slowhand had a fraction of Ringo's charisma.... he'd be Jimi Hendrix  ha2ha



Eric is one of the biggest name solo artists in the world

Because he's a very talented virtuoso musician.... but with about as much personal magnetism as the anonymous mini cab driver dropping some of those people off at the RAH.



you dont need to dance around the stage singing pub songs like Your Sixteen or Photograph to a bunch of old women to be a star

...but you DO need to do more than stand there, play three hour riffs and mumble out of key to an arena full of middle aged Cream wannabes to be LOVED.

Clapton is widely admired.

He'll never be LOVED the way Ringo is.

And you know it if you're honest Kev, so stop being obtuse  :P ;)
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nimrod

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Re: The Beatles As Solo Artists
« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2014, 02:42:56 AM »

The way I read your post Mr M is like this

your a Ringo fan

your not a Clapton fan

ie

blinkered

I really dont understand how you can rate Ringo a better singer than Clapton

Your not right about Ringo, he is a pub singer, he cant write songs, he's famous because he used to be in The Beatles

Clapton was the star man in John Mayalls Bluesbreakers (when he was known in London as God)

Clapton was the star man in the Yardbirds

Clapton was the star man in Cream

He is a renowned songwriter, one of the best guitarists in the history of rock, he is also a great singer, listen to him sing Crossroads or Tears In Heaven

Ringo is a bit of a joke, the way he gets people clapping like its a singalong in a pub, most of his concerts are done/sung by others, anyway as I said I think your talking tripe and I think deep down you know it.

Its fair enough not being a Clapton fan, I can easily dig that, but to say Ringo has more talent than Clapton is a complete joke. You have lost all credibility in my eyes as a knowledgeable music fan.
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Hello Goodbye

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Re: The Beatles As Solo Artists
« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2014, 04:02:15 AM »

I reckon blues artists struggle to have charisma.  Maybe that's why they sing the blues...


Cream - Crossroads (Royal Albert Hall 2005) (15 of 22)



Cream - Strange Brew





This 15 year old kid also suffers from Charisma Deficit Disorder...


Buddy Guy and Quinn Sullivan - Strange Brew

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Ollier

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Re: The Beatles As Solo Artists
« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2014, 04:44:28 AM »

"Eric Clapton, glorified session musician" deary me someone give that person what said that a pill or a smack around the head or something, they clearly need it.

Of course you'd have to take live appearances into account and during the 70's Paul was the only one who went out regularly on 3 or 4 tours. Then George had the Bangladesh shows and the 74 Tour and John had a few impromptu things as well as a few proper shows. Ringo was nowhere (except Bangladesh).

Now I don't know, maybe I'm incorrect but I'm sure the likes of Elton and Bowie were a fair bit more active in that regard.

I've been struggling to think in cohesive sentences lately so please forgive if what I say makes little sense.
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Hello Goodbye

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Re: The Beatles As Solo Artists
« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2014, 07:40:41 AM »

Now I don't know, maybe I'm incorrect but I'm sure the likes of Elton and Bowie were a fair bit more active in that regard.


Yeah.  Now those guys had charisma alright...






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oldbrownshoe

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Re: The Beatles As Solo Artists
« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2014, 09:04:12 AM »

I'm not in a position to comment on most of this stuff because I don't and have never listened to it, and I don't care a jot about anything after the 60s.
Elton John in a jump suit, I ask you!

However......Bob Dylan in the 60s.....different story.

Now, I can see how, if younger, in the middle of the 60s fans of The Beatles had rivalries with school-friends over The Stones and vice-versa, and I can see that Dylan may have appealed to a less 'poppy' crowd, and more to older brothers/6th Formers than to the young girls who loved John and Paul, but......in 2014......the notion that someone who claims to like The Beatles can't stand Dylan's voice is, sorry, absolutely ridiculous.
That's HISTORY. It's like saying you don't like the colour of the aircraft that got man to the moon!

Dylan's impact on The Beatles is vital and it's difficult to imagine the 60s without him. Indeed I'd argue it's more difficult to imagine the 60s without Dylan than it is to imagine the 60s without The Beatles. The crowd at Woodstock is more made in Dylan's image than Paul McCartney's.

By the way, the obsession about who wrote and played on soul tracks in the 60s is probably more of a British thing but, rest assured, over here many, many people are fully aware who wrote and performed on all the Tamla-Motown and Stax songs.
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Bobber

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Re: The Beatles As Solo Artists
« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2014, 11:09:24 AM »

Its fair enough not being a Clapton fan, I can easily dig that, but to say Ringo has more talent than Clapton is a complete joke. You have lost all credibility in my eyes as a knowledgeable music fan.

As far as I can see -but I'm getting a bit shortsighted getting into the middle ages- MrM is talking about charisma, not about talent.
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tkitna

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Re: The Beatles As Solo Artists
« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2014, 11:38:32 AM »

I guess it's hard to boogie around flashing peace signs with both hands and play guitar at the same time...


Cream - White Room (Royal Albert Hall 2005) (17 of 22)


Cream was lucky to have Jack Bruce as the front man.  RIP Jack.

nimrod

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Re: The Beatles As Solo Artists
« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2014, 11:42:49 AM »

As far as I can see -but I'm getting a bit shortsighted getting into the middle ages- MrM is talking about charisma, not about talent.

Yes Cor I keep hearing the word but honestly I dont know how it relates to music, yes he gets middle aged ladies singing photograph in the aisles , but then he has to hand over to Roger Hodgson or Greg Lake to sing a number, then the lady from Prince's band to show him how to play drums

Could Ringo with all his c-h-a-r-i-s-m-a fill the Royal Albert Hall EVERY NIGHT for 14 nights, every ticket sold?

Im sure Clapton could do that anytime he feels like it, even though he is an uncharismatic bore who doesnt have a song and dance routine like Mr Charisma who btw plays much smaller venues than the Albert

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