DM's Beatles forums
Solo forums => George Harrison => Topic started by: JohnEric on October 03, 2012, 05:29:10 PM
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I know there was a post about John and Paul making up prior to John’s death… I have a similar question about George and Paul.
I do know they made their peace in the last few years of George’s life (as George attended Linda McCartney’s memorial, and Paul visited George just weeks before his death). But if you notice in the Anthology video and book, George very seldom references McCartney alone, but goes on and on about John.
I also remember George stating that he would join another group with John and/or Ringo, but never again with Paul.
Did they have personal problems outside the Apple contract, etc.? Was their relationship ever that bad, if so what happened?
Like I said George seemed to almost worship John, but seemed to have little interest in Paul after The Beatles.
Thanks…
John
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Honestly, I think that Paul could be very hard to work with; maybe a bit too controlling 5dp . He also sued the other Beatles to dissolve the group around 1970. They were probably more like close acquaintances around the '00s, and made up before George's death thankfully. I can't blame him for saying that he wouldn't want to be in another group with Paul if I was in his shoes, though.
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But...y'know...how bad could it be if you end up being part of what many consider to be the greatest band ever?
Just saying, were I in those shoes I wouldn't turn down the opportunity to do it.
Guess I really can't figure out the reasoning.
:)
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It came out on the Let It Be film, George grew very frustrated with Paul..
apparently, sometimes Paul would get to the studio first because he lived round the corner (and he was a workaholic) and put down a lead guitar solo before George even got there, I think Pauls controlling of what George should play really annoyed him.
in the movie he says "I'll play whatever it is you want me to play or I wont play at all, whatever makes you happy..'
I think George had had enough of Paul controlling by then. He'd rather go off and play with Eric Clapton and other friends.
although it has to be said that John was very upset not to be mentioned in Georges book 'I Me Mine'
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I can see how George could be bitter about some of the things Paul did while they were still in the Beatles. Don't get me wrong, I love Paul to death, but I know I couldn't work with him.
During some of the interviews in Anthology I felt there was still some tension between George and Paul. I don't know if that's my imagination, but it felt there was still some distance there. I hope they did get closer before George passed away, like Paul has hinted at.
I really do like that Paul often does 'Something' in honor of George during his concerts though. That's a sweet tribute to an old friend.
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I actually think George had a much better relationship with Paul than he did with John. I'm sure he got annoyed with him and felt bitter about how bossy he could be, but Paul was also the only one who George told about his mother's brain tumor. They were like brothers, so I think George felt more comfortable publicly criticizing Paul, whereas with John he never really knew where he stood with him. John was a pretty sh*tty friend to George and constantly put him down, but despite that George hero-worshipped him for a long time.
Also, he mentioned John several times in his book, moreso than anyone else, actually.
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It came out on the Let It Be film, George grew very frustrated with Paul..
in the movie he says "I'll play whatever it is you want me to play or I wont play at all, whatever makes you happy..'
Things like these happen in every band that is together for a longer time. I believe through the years, this remark has been blown out of proportion way too much. It's no big deal really.
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I actually think George had a much better relationship with Paul than he did with John. I'm sure he got annoyed with him and felt bitter about how bossy he could be, but Paul was also the only one who George told about his mother's brain tumor. They were like brothers, so I think George felt more comfortable publicly criticizing Paul, whereas with John he never really knew where he stood with him. John was a pretty sh*tty friend to George and constantly put him down, but despite that George hero-worshipped him for a long time.
Also, he mentioned John several times in his book, moreso than anyone else, actually.
he mustve thought George was ok as he asked him to play lead guitar on most of the Imagine album
I suppose a lot depends on whose book you read or who's version of events you listen too
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Whew! You're still there, Kev. What a relief!!
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Whew! You're still there, Kev. What a relief!!
haha
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I actually think George had a much better relationship with Paul than he did with John. I'm sure he got annoyed with him and felt bitter about how bossy he could be, but Paul was also the only one who George told about his mother's brain tumor. They were like brothers, so I think George felt more comfortable publicly criticizing Paul, whereas with John he never really knew where he stood with him. John was a pretty sh*tty friend to George and constantly put him down, but despite that George hero-worshipped him for a long time.
Also, he mentioned John several times in his book, moreso than anyone else, actually.
In one of my books which I remember a story that in the early 70's, I think when George was photo'd with Gerald Ford he met up with John and was so mad at him he slapped him across the face knocking off his glasses. John was incensed but walked away. As I remember the story this left quite a rift that lasted till his death. I wish I could find the book.
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The more I learn, the less I want to know.
:-[
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The more I learn, the less I want to know.
:-[
Yes !!
They were just 4 happy moptops who became brilliant artists, we love their music, why do we need to know more ? ;)
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I guess it's a double-edged thing. Kind of like gawking at a train wreck. It's an awful thing, but one can't take their eyes off of it.
In the end I suppose I want to know all their is to know. It's just painful sometimes.
:-\
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In one of my books which I remember a story that in the early 70's, I think when George was photo'd with Gerald Ford he met up with John and was so mad at him he slapped him across the face knocking off his glasses. John was incensed but walked away. As I remember the story this left quite a rift that lasted till his death. I wish I could find the book.
Yeah, that was May Pang's book. From what I understand, John had promised to help George out with his tour (when he was getting all those bad reviews) by appearing at his Madison Square Garden show but changed his mind and wasn't going to sign the legal papers for The Beatles to break up. That was the final straw for George after years of being used by him (usually against Paul), and he shouted something to the effect of, "I always did everything you asked me to, but when have you ever been there for me?!" John didn't leave though. George smacked his sunglasses away because he wanted him to look him in the face, and John sat there and listened because he saw George was in pain, and he knew what that felt like.
There was another fight they had previously, which I think is the real reason George walked out of the Let it Be sessions. There's recordings of the sessions and his "argument" with Paul. In context it really isn't much of an argument at all. They made a big effort to cover up the recording of the fight between John and George, so I imagine it was pretty serious. Something that had been building for a long time, since the Hamburg days. It's all a bit weird, and yes you have to take these things with a grain of salt. However, there's enough consistency between different sources to be able to connect the dots. I don't like finding out about this stuff either, but at the same time I feel bad that Paul often has to take the blame when there's more to the story and frustrated when Yoko tries to make out that John was the one who cared about George the most.
My guess is it was something like this: George's relationship with Paul = publicly not good, privately very good
George's relationship with John = publicly good, privately not so good
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Yeah, that was May Pang's book. From what I understand, John had promised to help George out with his tour (when he was getting all those bad reviews) by appearing at his Madison Square Garden show but changed his mind and wasn't going to sign the legal papers for The Beatles to break up. That was the final straw for George after years of being used by him (usually against Paul), and he shouted something to the effect of, "I always did everything you asked me to, but when have you ever been there for me?!" John didn't leave though. George smacked his sunglasses away because he wanted him to look him in the face, and John sat there and listened because he saw George was in pain, and he knew what that felt like.
There was another fight they had previously, which I think is the real reason George walked out of the Let it Be sessions. There's recordings of the sessions and his "argument" with Paul. In context it really isn't much of an argument at all. They made a big effort to cover up the recording of the fight between John and George, so I imagine it was pretty serious. Something that had been building for a long time, since the Hamburg days. It's all a bit weird, and yes you have to take these things with a grain of salt. However, there's enough consistency between different sources to be able to connect the dots. I don't like finding out about this stuff either, but at the same time I feel bad that Paul often has to take the blame when there's more to the story and frustrated when Yoko tries to make out that John was the one who cared about George the most.
My guess is it was something like this: George's relationship with Paul = publicly not good, privately very good
George's relationship with John = publicly good, privately not so good
Doesnt make any sense, you dont ask someone you dont like to play lead guitar on your Imagine album and in the process spend days/weeks at your house in the countryside....John couldve had any lead guitarist on that album............and why would George even want John to help him out at Madison Square if he couldnt stand the sight of him ?
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It's not that they hated each other. You can tell by the way George talked about John after he died how much he loved him, and I'm sure John loved George too, but they did have some issues to work through. It's sad that John died before that was able to happen as I think they all would've become friends again eventually.
I don't want to pretend I know what happened or anything like that. I just find the whole Paul/George/John dynamic very interesting.
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A couple more things to be considered.
I think George was pleased once the Beatles ended because it gave him freedom with a lot less pressure. He was the one who once said being a Beatle was like having a toothache.
He probably knew that John was the main driving force behind the eventual separation even if Paul made the actual announcement. So that would explain his solidarity with John immedaitely after the break-up.
But when George wanted John to help him with the Bangladesh concert and John refused to appear without Yoko, things began to change. And later John was the one who didn't want to sign the papers ending the Beatles financial links, as has already been pointed out. So it kind of seemed that John was now the one taking away his freedom!
So in the end I don't think he really wanted to have much to do with either John or Paul. He really seems to be forcing himself in the Anthology project. You can see this when they have the little jam session and Paul is getting over enthusiastic. I also believe he was behind the decision not to go ahead with a Threetle version of Now and Then. Remember, George was the one who had said the Beatles could never get together again as long as John was dead.
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That's a great point, actually! George is a difficult guy to figure out. On the one hand, he really loved The Beatles and Paul and John (and of course Ringo), but at the same time he seemed the most traumatized by the whole thing. I forgot about the effect Yoko had on his relationship with John as well.
Here's an example of what I was talking about earlier. It's part of a transcript of the tapes of the Let It Be/Get Back sessions:
January 8th, 1969: George plays ‘I Me Mine’ to John for the first time. John snacks on food, opens Paul’s mail, and doesn’t pay much attention.
JOHN: Is that the end of it?
GEORGE: Yeah. It’s only that long—
JOHN: We can use it for a commercial. [laughs] So uh, yeah. It’s fine. And what do we do about that?
GEORGE: Um, well, it’s just a bit—
JOHN: It sounds so hard to do.
GEORGE: You see— No, it’s… no.
JOHN: I mean, for you.
GEORGE: No.
JOHN: [falsetto] I me mine… You know, all that singing.
The audio: http://amoralto.tumblr.com/post/39803804848/january-8th-1969-george-plays-i-me-mine-to (http://amoralto.tumblr.com/post/39803804848/january-8th-1969-george-plays-i-me-mine-to)
It's no wonder the poor guy felt so insecure.
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Yeah, that was May Pang's book. From what I understand, John had promised to help George out with his tour (when he was getting all those bad reviews) by appearing at his Madison Square Garden show but changed his mind and wasn't going to sign the legal papers for The Beatles to break up. That was the final straw for George after years of being used by him (usually against Paul), and he shouted something to the effect of, "I always did everything you asked me to, but when have you ever been there for me?!" John didn't leave though. George smacked his sunglasses away because he wanted him to look him in the face, and John sat there and listened because he saw George was in pain, and he knew what that felt like.
There was another fight they had previously, which I think is the real reason George walked out of the Let it Be sessions. There's recordings of the sessions and his "argument" with Paul. In context it really isn't much of an argument at all. They made a big effort to cover up the recording of the fight between John and George, so I imagine it was pretty serious. Something that had been building for a long time, since the Hamburg days. It's all a bit weird, and yes you have to take these things with a grain of salt. However, there's enough consistency between different sources to be able to connect the dots. I don't like finding out about this stuff either, but at the same time I feel bad that Paul often has to take the blame when there's more to the story and frustrated when Yoko tries to make out that John was the one who cared about George the most.
My guess is it was something like this: George's relationship with Paul = publicly not good, privately very good
George's relationship with John = publicly good, privately not so good
That's right. It's been years since I read the book and thank you for the memory jog and clarification. George must have been in a tough place back then. The reality is they're still people and have the same issues as everyone else.
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In Anthology Paul admits that he alway talked down to George. He said "I knew George when we used to get the same bus to school as kids. We would sit next to each other and being the older Kid I used to talk down to him like you do when you are are young.It was probably a failing of mine talking down to George because I'd always known him as the youger kid." (not word perfect but you get the gist)
next scene George joked
"Paul was always 9 month older than I. Even now he is still 9 months older than I"
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In Anthology Paul admits that he alway talked down to George. He said "I knew George when we used to get the same bus to school as kids. We would sit next to each other and being the older Kid I used to talk down to him like you do when you are are young.It was probably a failing of mine talking down to George because I'd always known him as the youger kid." (not word perfect but you get the gist)
next scene George joked
"Paul was always 9 month older than I. Even now he is still 9 months older than I"
The Beatles -interview with John Paul and George. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMlU3428uOY#)
Thank you, Marvin.
Paul and George attended the Liverpool Institute for Boys and met while they were there. Paul's report card indicates that he did well in math but somehow he thought that nine months was a year and a half. :)
I love George's dry wit. I miss him.
(http://www.themaccareport.com/archives/Macrepcard.jpg)
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The issues between George & Paul’s are still a mystery to the fans, even though the media people states many reasons. It is a known fact that Paul is very hard to work with which is stated by most of his co-workers. That is what the Media tell as the major reason.
LOURENE
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Some years ago I read an article relating to this where George said he was just fed up with his backseat position in the Beatles. John and Paul were openly critical of his music and playing while he kept his mouth shut(basically) about theirs. I think(my opinion) that when they got back from India George became more opinionated and the change upset the balance and caused a rift. I think some good examples of this was his critical view of how Hey Jude should be played, openly disliking Obaldi-Oblada which he included lyrics to that effect in Savoy Truffle, Not Guilty, which makes me think the difficulties started over India. Even WMGGW evokes his feelings about the situation over his playing. Into 69 he had more arguments and dissatisfaction to the point of leaving during Let It Be. I, Me Mine is a good example of his overview of Apple, Old Brown Shoe is probably a self descripted title of how he saw himself in the Beatles. My guess is Here Comes The Sun is a bit of relief as I'm sure he felt the End was near.
If you look at the photo's for 68's mad day out there are only a couple of them where George is smiling. The April69 shoot he is totally unhappy and the August69 photo shoot at Titenhearst he is totally disengaged.
All in all it probably became ridiculous for him to imagine that arguably the 3rd greatest rock star in the world could barely get a song recorded !
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At one stage in the Pete Best era George was singing as many if not more cover songs at their gigs, so for a time he was equal with the others.
When J & P started their writing partnership they apparently deeply considered having George in as well but they decided against it, its a great pity it wasn't a 3 way thing - Lennon/McCartney/Harrison
all those get togethers of John & Paul at Kenwood etc, George must've felt like he'd had his nose pushed out. But he persevered and started to write songs on his own...good songs too
They shouldve included him.
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At one stage in the Pete Best era George was singing as many if not more cover songs at their gigs, so for a time he was equal with the others.
When J & P started their writing partnership they apparently deeply considered having George in as well but they decided against it, its a great pity it wasn't a 3 way thing - Lennon/McCartney/Harrison
all those get togethers of John & Paul at Kenwood etc, George must've felt like he'd had his nose pushed out. But he persevered and started to write songs on his own...good songs too
They shouldve included him.
It was an interesting decision given that it affected George's share of income. It's hard to know how much he was showing interest in actual song writing at that stage. He wasnt exactly prolific until 67-68. Still. Including him would have reaped later benefits. As well as sped up his learning curve.
On the post Beatle relationship between Paul and George everything I've read suggests George simply was very reluctant to work with Paul again. So professionally there was definitely lingering bad blood. I liked a quote from Henry McCullough after George signed him to Dark Horse records post-Wings. He said he and George found they had a lot in common.
That said I haven't heard of too much personal (as in non - work related) animosity between George and Paul. It's not uncommon with friends to be able to get along perfectly well socially and like each others company but not want to work together on something.
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'Paul ran out of good songs of his own "
ouch !!
George Harrison Talks About Paul McCartney (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCTYXXg9ZZI#)
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There are quite a few similarities to the situation experienced by Brian Jones in The Rolling Stones.....only without the tragic ending.
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There are quite a few similarities to the situation experienced by Brian Jones in The Rolling Stones.....only without the tragic ending.
Yes Id never thought of that angle.
It was also obvious to me that George & maybe Ringo wouldve been a bit upset/offended by Paul re-recording Beatles songs on the Broadstreet album, kinda saying 'its better without you guys on them' I actually thought him doing the scene where he was every band member for one of the songs was very crass, people had said that John lost it big time post Beatles (they were right in a lot of ways) , but when I saw Paul being every member of the band and re-recording Beatle songs I thought he'd lost it big time to snub his ex band mates likes this, very insensitive.
Im a massive fan of Pauls Beatle songs, I love 90% of them, but I think he could be an awkward sod
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Yes Id never thought of that angle.
It was also obvious to me that George & maybe Ringo wouldve been a bit upset/offended by Paul re-recording Beatles songs on the Broadstreet album, kinda saying 'its better without you guys on them' I actually thought him doing the scene where he was every band member for one of the songs was very crass, people had said that John lost it big time post Beatles (they were right in a lot of ways) , but when I saw Paul being every member of the band and re-recording Beatle songs I thought he'd lost it big time to snub his ex band mates likes this, very insensitive.
Im a massive fan of Pauls Beatle songs, I love 90% of them, but I think he could be an awkward sod
I think it's true Paul was difficult. Although George was also a perfectionist in the studio. So I could imagine how the two would rub each other the wrong way professionally.
George had earlier got Paul's goat as well by unfavourably comparing him to Willie Weeks as a bass player. So I'm sure Paul wasn't out to spare George's feelings from that angle.
Didnt Ringo join Paul on Broadstreet? I seem to recall report of Ringo and Paul agreeing what ones to redo.
Regardless, none of the remakes are a patch on the originals.
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I think it's true Paul was difficult. Although George was also a perfectionist in the studio. So I could imagine how the two would rub each other the wrong way professionally.
George had earlier got Paul's goat as well by unfavourably comparing him to Willie Weeks as a bass player. So I'm sure Paul wasn't out to spare George's feelings from that angle.
Didnt Ringo join Paul on Broadstreet? I seem to recall report of Ringo and Paul agreeing what ones to redo.
Regardless, none of the remakes are a patch on the originals.
yeah and whats the point, whats he trying to prove ? Beatles songs without Beatles ? crazy !!
This is the one I meant Moog - No Ringo there
Paul McCartney - Coming Up-HQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnHu-WLvY5U#ws)
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yeah and whats the point, whats he trying to prove ? Beatles songs without Beatles ? crazy !!
This is the one I meant Moog - No Ringo there
Paul McCartney - Coming Up-HQ ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnHu-WLvY5U#ws[/url])
Ah yes. Paul's ideal band. All him. I wonder if he got the point when the version that went to no 1 in the US was the live one with him playing with Wings.
Ringo sighting here.
Yesterday - Here There And Everywhere - Wanderlust / Paul McCartney & Ringo Starr (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bJ8x-Njkoc#ws)
Yesterday - Here There And Everywhere - Wanderlust / Paul McCartney & Ringo Starr
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The problem always seems to arise when a song-writing partnership is established and, probably for legal difficulties, the notion of a Lennon-McCartney-Harrison composition wouldn't be entertained, as it might have been pre-Northern Songs.
Going back to The Stones, the majority of 60s Jagger-Richard songs would have been ho-hum (i.e. like post-60s Stones songs!) if it hadn't been for Brian's contribution e.g. 'Paint It, Black', 'Under My Thumb', 'Ruby Tuesday', 'Lady Jane', 'No Expectations', and Bill Wyman apparently came up with the riff for 'Jumpin' Jack Flash' but didn't receive a writing credit (how does that work?).
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I think George was jealous that Paul was so much better then him at everything.
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/advrider/peepwall.gif)
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Ha! I have somehow missed this thread altogether when it was actual! Interesting points. Btw Ringo did play on Paul's album Tug Of War. I don't recall George and Paul ever being on the same record after the Beatles split up. Well, besides the songs that came with the Anthology project, Free As A Bird and Real Love.
George never looked happy during the Anthology jam, neither did Ringo. Paul seems to be the only one who's enthusiastic about the whole thing. The chat they have around the table seems more natural. I recall an interview the Dutch presenter Ivo Niehe had with George in 1988. Towards the end, George mentions he is late for dinner. With Paul and Ringo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pDwsDa0wC0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pDwsDa0wC0)
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Ha! I have somehow missed this thread altogether when it was actual! Interesting points. Btw Ringo did play on Paul's album Tug Of War. I don't recall George and Paul ever being on the same record after the Beatles split up. Well, besides the songs that came with the Anthology project, Free As A Bird and Real Love.
Wait! Paul and George were together on George's All Those Years Ago in 1981.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNFQxgJc8Qw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNFQxgJc8Qw)
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Nimrod I'm sure I heard in an interview that George was asked to be involved in Give My Regards to Broadstreet but he (wisely I think) turned Paul down. George's involvement in films has been a lot more artistically successful.
Also you say Paul was trying to be all of The Beatles in that video but Coming Up wasn't a Beatles song or am I missing something?
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Nimrod I'm sure I heard in an interview that George was asked to be involved in Give My Regards to Broadstreet but he (wisely I think) turned Paul down. George's involvement in films has been a lot more artistically successful.?
True. Although he did have some unsuccessful projects as well I think.
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True. Although he did have some unsuccessful projects as well I think.
Shanghai Surprise I think was one.
But his company did give the world Life of Brian, Withnail and I and The Long Good Friday. So I think he wins by a knockout over any cinema ambitions Paul had.
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Nimrod I'm sure I heard in an interview that George was asked to be involved in Give My Regards to Broadstreet but he (wisely I think) turned Paul down. George's involvement in films has been a lot more artistically successful.
Also you say Paul was trying to be all of The Beatles in that video but Coming Up wasn't a Beatles song or am I missing something?
Sometimes I think Paul's sarcasm can be misconstrued. When he did C-Moon or Hi, Hi, Hi he was censored by the BBC so he put out Mary Had A Little Lamb as a protest, not because that's all he had as he felt they thought his songs should all be Paulie songs. With Coming Up I think the underlying sarcasticness of him playing all the parts could just be his response to the critical accusations of him wanting to be the everything Beatle! It doesn't work so well! Good song though!
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Nimrod I'm sure I heard in an interview that George was asked to be involved in Give My Regards to Broadstreet but he (wisely I think) turned Paul down. George's involvement in films has been a lot more artistically successful.
Also you say Paul was trying to be all of The Beatles in that video but Coming Up wasn't a Beatles song or am I missing something?
I remember seeing the Coming Up video in 1980 and just thinking it was funny. No underlying statement detected. And actually it was nice to see one of them referencing their Beatles past as they had all spent so much of the seventies distancing themselves from it and trying to create new personas (and failing).i accept Paul can be annoying as hell but I do think this was a harmless bit of fun.
Re the main topic - it appears clear to me that George doesn't like Paul. And paulstrikes me as emotionally detached and probably not really close to anyone.
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