DM's Beatles forums
Solo forums => Fifth Beatles and the Merseybeat Scene => Topic started by: Bobber on February 21, 2006, 08:14:16 PM
-
Does George Martin have a point here?
MARTIN DEMANDS CREDIT FOR YESTERDAY
Songwriter GEORGE MARTIN is demanding recognition for co-writing THE BEATLES' hit YESTERDAY, insisting he penned the track alongside SIR PAUL McCARTNEY.
The song's composers are officially listed as McCartney and late Beatle JOHN LENNON, but Martin claims McCartney added Lennon's name to the songwriters list, despite the IMAGINE singer having no involvement in the melody.
He says, "We didn't know what to do with it. It was such a soppy tune, so I went away and wrote a score for a string quartet to go with it.
"Two days later I was rehearsing it and Paul McCartney walked in. He'd never seen a score before, and he said, 'It hasn't got my name on it.'
"So I handed him a pencil and he signed it.
"He wrote John Lennon's name too - although he had nothing to do with it - and added Esquire to mine."
-
The same old story ... Lennon/McCartney team is always fair to have the credits (not in my opinion) but when someone else (me sometimes) added that George, Ringo, Neil, Mal, Pete (Shotton), Sir George, Donovan, Yoko and many others collaborated too with bits here and there -at least as much as Paul or John, if not more, in lots of songs but without any credits- ... ::) We discuss if John or Paul wrote/composed this or that but don't pay attention to others' help ... let's open our minds, please.
Sir George was on Yesterday, wasn't he? He should have got more credits for sure ... but he's not the only one.
-
Any ideas where this story originated Bobber?
I am not trying to diminish what George Martin's contribution was to Yesterday but ultimately Paul wrote the words AND music - Martin scored and arranged it for a string quartet. If he'd suggested that She Loves You would have sounded better with a string arrangement would he want the songwriting credit for that too? He was the Beatles' producer and it was his job to interpret their ideas and come up with his own and ultimately get it all down on tape.
The next thing Mike Leander will want a share of the songwriting on She's Leaving Home!
-
I agree with you here, TE. By the way, I read it on contactmusic.com.
-
^Great answer End.
-
doing his job.......yes exactly......i need credit too for buying the music....
-
Well, let's see ... let's see ...
Certainly Yesterday is not the same as any other song ... (almost released as a Macca solo song)
She's Leaving Home's story, for example, is quite diferent, because the idea of the arrangement -and the arrengement itself- was entirely Paul ... he needed Sir George just to write -not compose- the notes on a paper: that's all ... Sir George couldn't and it was done by Mike, OK ... Mike didn't compose anything on that one, so there's no place for credits, as far as I can see ... (oh!, John sang backing vocals too) :P ;D
In the case of other songs (She Loves You ...) if the arrangement, harmonies and other things were defined by the composers (John+Paul, John or Paul) they matter would be a diferent one -the paper of the producer wouldn't be as important as it's in Yesterday- Sir George would collaborate doing his job as a part of a team, that's all, ... but his role in Yesterday is prominent, he's not just interpreting their ideas and if John got credits he should have too, why not? ... it would have been fair acording to the facts ...
If we think that Paul wrote the words and CHORDS but not the music - Martin scored and arranged it for a string quartet. Certainly Sir George defined the song, gave it its personality ... He did more than John, didn't he? ... What did John? ... but who got the credits instead?
It's a Macca song ... or a Macca/Martin (The Sirs) song ... but it's not a Lennon/McCartney one (John said once that he did nothing) ::)
It seems that everyone (DJs, public, ... ) have done more for the song than John :D ... but he got some money ... very unfair :-/
Summing up: the matter here is that John got credits ... if the line would say 'by Paul McCartney' I'm sure that nobody would be talking about all this ... :)
P.S. I think that the only ones that were just doing their job were the classical musicians ...
-
Just to compare, how much of the arrangement in Walrus was Mr M interpreting Johns ideas or were George's own? Because that arrangement also defines Walrus as much as the lyric or the chords.
-
If you have listened to the track without the string arrangement you had seen how much it was already defined ... the vowel arrengement was entirely Sir George, by the way ... and John loved it ;D
I was not going on that way when I used define, as you surely know.
After all, the thing on Yesterday was quite diferent 'cos the arrangement: a quartet and no drums or more guitars, was completely an idea of Sir George ... by that time it all was an acoustic guitar and vocal ... but in I Am The Walrus the thing is quite diferent ... he was collaborating -John ask him for an arrangement- ... as the rest of them ... even Paul was there ... at the studio ... playing and so, y'know :P ;)
-
^Very true. But we've all heard Paul play Yesterday live with just the guitar, and it's still Yesterday. Does then the arrangement really define the song, or just enhance it?
-
I never wanted to say that the arrangement defined the song but Sir George defined the song ... the guys played it with all their instruments on stage during their last tour in 1966 too. :-/
By the way, Paul also played Eleanor Rigby with just one acoustic guitar but it's not exactly the same, is it?
-
By the way, Paul also played Eleanor Rigby with just one acoustic guitar but it's not exactly the same, is it?
In the context of who should get writing credits, I'd have to say that yes, it is the same. :B*
never used the face before. :)
-
In the context of who should get writing credits, I'd have to say that yes, it is the same. :B*
never used the face before. :)
When I mentioned Eleanor Rigby on one acoustic guitar I was answering your post about Yesterday on stage and the necessity of strings ... nothing about the credits ... you know that Eleanor Rigby's credits ::) ... well, another story there ... ;D
Congrats ... for your face! LOL! :) ;D :D
-
All interesting. George was on a healthy salary to be a producer. I am sure also he would have picked up wages for his arrangement.
This kind of thing splits bands before they even begin and I have found myself in similar situations. I can imagine George becoming incredibly attached and also rightly proud about how he embellished and sometimes saved songs from relative obscurity or the bootleg scrapheap.
Add6's and 11's etc. She Loves You would never have been so interesting without these Martin touches.
To go one step further though and claim credits is certainly for me, an Uncool, UnGeorge thing to do. Still, with Macca himself seeming increasingly more concerned about these things then maybe these older gentlemen are concerned mainly by legacy. A vain thing to behold when the collective skill is what should be celebrated.
Legally, this is an area where music llawyers love to be.......Vultures!!!!!
-
But if you, Kevin, were talking about writing credits when you mentioned Yesterday on stage ... can you explain to me: Lennon/McCartney? ??) Because that's the matter to me: why John? ... and if so, why not Sir George too? ;)
-
But if you, Kevin, were talking about writing credits when you mentioned Yesterday on stage ... can you explain to me: Lennon/McCartney? ??) Because that's the matter to me: why John? ... and if so, why not Sir George too? ;)
Because it would open up a can of worms. (A great English saying.)
-
But if you, Kevin, were talking about writing credits when you mentioned Yesterday on stage ... can you explain to me: Lennon/McCartney? ??) Because that's the matter to me: why John? ... and if so, why not Sir George too? ;)
I can't answer that Raxo. We all know the Lennon/McCartney thing is a crock. Apps has got it right - arrangers claiming credit is an uncool thing to do. Bugger the legality. :K)
-
I can't answer that Raxo. We all know the Lennon/McCartney thing is a crock. Apps has got it right - arrangers claiming credit is an uncool thing to do. Bugger the legality. :K)
I agree ...
... but we must remember that almost everything Paul or John added to a song written by the other was just an arrangement (one chord or harmony or even one word) most of the times ... and nobody doubt that he (whoever in every case) should have got credits for that ... because we consider that he (whoever again) was composing/writing ... not arranging ... but the thing is that there were more people who did that too in many songs (George, Ringo, and others including Sir George too) ... and I don't care if their main roles were musicians, producers, arrangers, friends or wifes/girlfriends ... Linda got credits in 1971 ... ::)
-
By agreement right from the VERY beginning, regardless of who wrote it, the songwriting credit was shared McCartney/Lennon at the beginning and later Lennon/McCartney (we wont get into THAT argument here!!). So... Paul wrote a new song and immediately added John as co-writer - just as John would have done if HE'D written it! End of story as far as I'm concerned.
John didn't deserve credit, but Paul added his name because that is what they agreed they would always do. Paul ALREADY had the chords and the lyrics and George Martin suggested it would sound better with a string quartet then scored it as such - that was his job!
-
So we're not talking about writing credits after all, only Sir George ... OK, then!
I've got some questions then:
1. Did Paul write "John Lennon" on his theme for The Family Way one year later? Why?
2. And in Catcall? or it was Woman? one with pseudonymous but the other?
2. What did Ringo do on What Goes On very few months later to share credits?
Does anybody know? :)
They all were doing their job ... and they all were paid! ...
-
Now we go to the heavy, weighty discussion on publishing. Of course they were all paid but you get paid repetively, possibly all your life for a publishing royalty.
As End said. Len/Mac agreed right at the beginning when it was obvious who the main songwriting contributors were to be.
In answer...1. Separate, non-Beatle project. 2. You can drop anyone you like onto credits. This could be for a number of reasons. Ringo unhappy perhaps? Main vocalist/writer on the tune. Just a young band dealing with a first time publishing situation? A pension fund for Richard? Diffusing a potential band break-up?
Did you also know that Macca never wrote his Liverpool Oratario? Someone else did.
That had me shocked. Could he really stoop to such levels?
-
I'm not the one who's using the argument of "he was already paid" as a valid one, y'know ...
If John and Paul agreed what we all know why Ringo was there in What Goes One and Sir George couldn't have been in Yesterday? The same reasoning can be used in both cases but in Sir George's one is more justified.
For the posible reasons you give I would say that they could have recorded Don't Pass Me By (more money for Ringo) and that the main writer was John (I think)
Wasn't John's Give Peace A Chance a solo project too? Did you know that Yesterday was thought -or at least suggested- to be realeased as a solo project too, at some moment?
Didn't he compose anything of the Oratorio? Are you sure? or is it that he'd got all the credits again?
Anyway ... I see your points, mates ... I only hope you can see mine (it all began with me trying to see Sir George's) ... :P
Don't want to make nobody feel uncomfortable with this but to think about some weird things that were happening by that time and that nothing was/is so strict as some might see/think ... I repeat myself: let's open our minds (all of us) ...
-
So we're not talking about writing credits after all, only Sir George ... OK, then!
I've got some questions then:
1. Did Paul write "John Lennon" on his theme for The Family Way one year later? Why?
2. And in Catcall? or it was Woman? one with pseudonymous but the other?
2. What did Ringo do on What Goes On very few months later to share credits?
Does anybody know? :)
They all were doing their job ... and they all were paid! ...
1. The Family Way was not a Beatle product and was not even released on Parlophone. But to further prove a point, as in Yesterday, Paul wrote the music and George Martin arranged it - however Paul gets the songwriting credit and NOT a co-writing credit with George Martin because Paul was the composer.
2. Although Paul wrote 'Woman', the songwriter was credited as Bernard Webb. This was just an experiment to see how well the song would fair without a Lennon/McCartney credit.
3. What Goes On was a VERY old song of John's that was resurrected for the Rubber Soul sessions and was worked on by both Paul AND Ringo. Incidentally, Ringo is credited as coming up with the line "waiting for the tides of time".
My argument is that George Martin does not deserve a songwriting credit for a song he did not compose - he was the arranger and producer.
-
IFor the posible reasons you give I would say that they could have recorded Don't Pass Me By (more money for Ringo) and that the main writer was John (I think)
This song is mentioned as being a composition of Ringo's as early as 1963 - it was even partially sung by Paul on a Pop Goes The Beatles radio show (in a somewhat jokey manner though) in reference to it being Ringo's song.
Did you know that Yesterday was thought -or at least suggested- to be realeased as a solo project too, at some moment?
Paul denies this in his Anthology interview.
Didn't he compose anything of the Oratorio? Are you sure? or is it that he'd got all the credits again?
All credited to paul as he composed it.
Don't want to make nobody feel uncomfortable with this but to think about some weird things that were happening by that time and that nothing was/is so strict as some might see/think ... I repeat myself: let's open our minds (all of us) ...
The composer always gets the songwriting credit, not the arranger.
-
john and paul wrote most of what goes on,and i believe don't pass me by was mostly paul....and a contract where copyrights are concerned you must list both parties reguardless who did the work,its like a trademark,thats why john is on yesterday and paul on give peace a chance........thirdly bernard webb was put on woman for 2 reasons,one that peter and grogan wouldn't be over shawdowed by doing a mccartney song and second that it would be considered a lennon and mccartney tune and therefore permission obtainted to use it and payment be made to use it......and lastly it doesn't really sound like something the humble man that george martin is would say...if he did then its sour grapes...they said they owed him a debt...he knows what he did and noone can deny...so why try for more credit..it don't sound like him....he is not that vain....
-
it doesn't really sound like something the humble man that george martin is would say
I have read the original article and you're absolutely right Marshall - it was just a headline grabbing sound-bite and his comment does appear to have been taken out of context.
I stuck my 10 cents in here because some (no names!) appeared to be saying that he DOES deserve a credit instead of John. John deserves to be credited simply because that was his agreement with Paul and George Martin doesn't, because he only(!!) arranged Paul's song for a string quartet.
(flower)
-
Wasn't John's Give Peace A Chance a solo project too?
John didn't compose GPAC.
-
I mentioned The family Way as an example of a theme composed by Paul without Lennon credits ... so the agreement in that case was somehow broken ... Lennon's solo project (Give Peace A Chance) was another example ...
The way Ringo got credits for What Goes On is a significant example too ... he wrote some line for Yellow Submarine too (one he sang) some months later, but got no credits ... and some of them worked on Eleanor Rigby too ... so the formula was somehow arbitrary ... and they were changing now and then in -at least- those two years (65-66) ... ??)
My point of view is that what Sir George did on Yesterday was more than what John or Paul did on lots of other songs composed by the other of them ... and lots of people consider that wathever the other added was "composing" (not arranging): that's the only thing I was trying to say ... if we consider that one of them (John or Paul) had the right for the credits for some bits then there are lots of other people (not only Sir George) that deserve the credits too ... that's because I said "let's open our minds (all of us)" ;D
Yep, Paul said he composed Liverpool Oratorio ... and he got the credits ... we're answering a question made by An Apple Beatle here ... :)
By the way, the composer doesn't always get the songwriter credit and some arrangers get ... I'd like to know which role Linda had got to get the credits ... but I gues that she only suggested little changes and so ... the role of an arranger perhaps? ??)
If all of you have proven that I'm wrong I admit I'm wrong ... (flower)
P.S. Let's go on with our (busy) lives ... :)
-
This is a great discussion and I personally don't have any ill feeling against anyone for having an opposing view to mine - so let's chat on :)
-
Although I agree on the point of George Martin's job -producing and arranging- I understand his feeling with this particular song. John Lennon had nothing to do with Yesterday. Paul McCartney comes up, puts both their names on the score and leaves George Martin with an open mouth. Of course they all agreed on the Lennon-McCartney partnership and that's the way it should be. But I think George Martin raised an eyebrow there.
-
This is a great discussion and I personally don't have any ill feeling against anyone for having an opposing view to mine - so let's chat on :)
Neither I. :)
Tho I've realized that some people around these forums (none of the ones that have posted on this thread) take opinions as something personal or even offensive or attacks against them -don't ask me who or why- ...
I think that our points are already on the table ...
Sir George didn't write or composed the song, I agree -I'm not blind or deaf ... yet ... give me time LOL!- but helped a lot to define it as a great ballad (a great step if you ask me) so in some way he (tho not only he) made it a standard ...
Have any of you listen to Yesterday on stage played by the foursome during their last 1966 tour? I've done -sorry but I've got it on tape so I can't uploaded :-/ - it sounds very poor ... and I'm not talking about sound quality ... and I'm awared that they didn't rehearsal it at studio because it was a solo effort (I was not saying that it was Paul who suggested Yesterday to be released as a solo work) ... with the usual approach the song would have lost a lot ...
In my opinion, without Sir George decision Yesterday would be another Michelle ... because the melody was/is great and the words were/are not bad but less people would re-main listening as much as they did from the very begining without that classical arrangement ... and perhaps Eleanor Rigby wouldn't get that approach next year. ??)
I always thought that Paul composed one song that he later gave away without Lennon credits (I would have to research but I thought it was one out of these: Penina, Catcall, Woman or Thingumy Bob ... if Woman was the one with the pseudonymous maybe is one of the others) ...
If I'm right there's another discrepancy ...
If I'm wrong I would like to ask if a song that it's compose for another artist when that artist ask you for a song it's not a solo project? More or less as The Family Way theme was ...
-
Although I agree on the point of George Martin's job -producing and arranging- I understand his feeling with this particular song. John Lennon had nothing to do with Yesterday. Paul McCartney comes up, puts both their names on the score and leaves George Martin with an open mouth. Of course they all agreed on the Lennon-McCartney partnership and that's the way it should be. But I think George Martin raised an eyebrow there.
More or less my thoughts too ...
So I seized the opportunity to talk about other people's help, during their career, that were hidden by the famous credits ... and Yesterday is a very good example to do it ...
-
Have any of you listen to Yesterday on stage played by the foursome during their last 1966 tour? I've done -sorry but I've got it on tape so I can't uploaded :-/ - it sounds very poor ... and I'm not talking about sound quality ... and I'm awared that they didn't rehearsal it at studio because it was a solo effort (I was not saying that it was Paul who suggested Yesterday to be released as a solo work) ... with the usual approach the song would have lost a lot ...
I actually quite like the 'group' arrangement of Yesterday - to my ears it sounds like the only song they did rehearse for their 1966 tour!
I always thought that Paul composed one song that he later gave away without Lennon credits (I would have to research but I thought it was one out of these: Penina, Catcall, Woman or Thingumy Bob ... if Woman was the one with the pseudonymous maybe is one of the others) ...
Actually, you are quite right about Catcall - that was released by the Chris Barber Band in 1967 with just a McCartney credit, as was Penina by Carlos Mendez in 1968(or was it 1969?)
Let's be honest here, Paul was always the more savvy businessman - that is even more obvious today with his MPL publishing empire! And I believe he even re-negotiated a greater share in Northern Songs than John (without his knowledge) before the Beatles broke up!!
-
By the way, here is a link to the 1966 live version of Yesterday recorded at the Budakan in Japan, 1966.
http://s33.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3CMBRG711KK233IZPMNUKZT8K1
-
By the way, here is a link to the 1966 live version of Yesterday recorded at the Budakan in Japan, 1966.
[url]http://s33.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3CMBRG711KK233IZPMNUKZT8K1[/url]
Cheers, The End! :)
That's exactly the version I've got ... I su-pose that that's the only one ??) ... it seems to me that they are somehow lost on it (Paul's vocal and rhythm electric guitar are the prominent parts, and it's easy to imagine why) ... the song is one-year-old and it's already got its own personality ... the electric/rock version is a rarity ... (almost) everyone who has made a version have chosen a classical or even a minimalist acoustic approach ... it's under(&)table ;D
-
That's exactly the version I've got ... I su-pose that that's the only one ??
Nope, here's another version recorded during their evening set at the same gig in Japan:
http://s7.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2U65YEB8YOGR033V97G97CYZJF
-
It's all good to read. Publishing is a messy monster though.
My info about the Oratario came from a reliable source. Someone 'inside' as you might say.
I will tap him up further on this. Maybe this could be the new 'Faul' rumour. lol
Peace to you all.
-
I've read that Paul did very few on the Oratorio (some indications and changed some things, if you want to see in that way) while Carl Davis wrote/composed most of the things ... It seems that Paul was only involved in the melody part: the hard one was for Carl ...
Peace, Love and Hope for everyone, everywhere ... now and always! (flower)
(By the way, where are you hidden GreenApple?)
-
Nope, here's another version recorded during their evening set at the same gig in Japan:
[url]http://s7.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2U65YEB8YOGR033V97G97CYZJF[/url]
This is version 2 from the Budokan, Japan 1966
-
Recorded during their evening set at the same gig in Japan:
http://s7.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2U65YEB8YOGR033V97G97CYZJF
This is version 2 from the Budokan, 1966.
-
I like this one more ...
Thanks, The End.
-
I can almost believe Paul didnt do much on the 'Oratorio' as it sucks. 'Standing Stone' was much better in my opinion.
Sorry, now you guys can carry on with the intended subject matter as its good reading (something thats been missing for awhile).
-
I've got the Liverpool Oratorio ... I like it but I don't love it ... so I decided not to buy anything else from his classical works ... tho I've read good reviews of ... precisely Classical Works ... ;D
-
i think there is a vergin on blackpool night out and maybe on krone circus too.....
-
There is.
-
i think there is a vergin on blackpool night out and maybe on krone circus too.....
I think these were solo efforts with just Paul on acoustic guitar accompanied by strings (at least on the Blackpool version).
-
I believe that George Martin gets a producers royalty for all his work with the Beatles. I also believe that George Harrison and Ringo get a couple points on all Lennon/McCartney Northern Songs for their contributions.
-
the krones the best beside buddahpan i think.....
-
I believe that George Martin gets a producers royalty for all his work with the Beatles. I also believe that George Harrison and Ringo get a couple points on all Lennon/McCartney Northern Songs for their contributions.
The infamous point haggling system. lol
-
It's a shame about the haggling. I've always admired the way R.E.M. and U2 split song royalties among the band. Keeps a band together . . . .
-
no al krone circus is a group effort.....
-
It's a shame about the haggling. I've always admired the way R.E.M. and U2 split song royalties among the band. Keeps a band together . . . .
Queen ... at least at the end ...
-
no al krone circus is a group effort.....
I don't think I've seen that.
-
The same old story ... Lennon/McCartney team is always fair to have the credits (not in my opinion) but when someone else (me sometimes) added that George, Ringo, Neil, Mal, Pete (Shotton), Sir George, Donovan, Yoko and many others collaborated too with bits here and there -at least as much as Paul or John, if not more, in lots of songs but without any credits- ... ::) We discuss if John or Paul wrote/composed this or that but don't pay attention to others' help ... let's open our minds, please.
Sir George was on Yesterday, wasn't he? He should have got more credits for sure ... but he's not the only one.
...
So I seized the opportunity to talk about other people's help, during their career, that were hidden by the famous credits ... and Yesterday is a very good example to do it ...
From Mal Evans' Diaries:
http://www.macca-central.com/macca-news/MoreNews.cfm?ID=1690
-------------------
"McCartney wrote Sgt Pepper 'with a little help from his roadie friend'
A ROAD manager for the Beatles who was shot dead by police in Los Angeles left behind diaries in which he claimed to have co-written some of the group 's songs, writes Maurice Chittenden.
Mal Evans, who died 29 years ago after allegedly brandishing a rifle during a domestic row, said he helped Sir Paul McCartney write the title track to Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band.
Evans also claimed he helped to compose Fixing a Hole - or Where the Rain Comes In, as he called it - as McCartney sat at a piano in the Beatle's home. He hoped to get royalties but instead had to make do with
-
How does he sleep?!
-
LOL!!! ;D
... If I were Paul ... (*taking some time dreaming ... waking up again* :D) ... I couldn't sleep too well promising Mal some credits (if Mal's words are true, of course) ...
... but I guess it depends of the person ::) ... need I to say I'm not Paul? ... as I thought! 8)
-
I don't understand the stinginess in Paul and John with the writing credits. I guess part of its ego, part of its money (even if you do throw away a point or two on old Mal or at least let him keep working for 38 pounds a week), and part of its mystique (wow, those geniuses wrote every single word!). Dylan "borrowed" lines from Bobby Neuwirth (like "when you're lost in the rain in Juarez and it's Eastertime too"); the Stones nicked the Jumping Jack Flash riff from Bill Wyman (not to mention the possibility of lyrics/songs from Gram Parsons) and Marianne Faithfull only got writing credit for Sister Morphine after some wrangling.
Ultimately it must have something to do with insecurity. These guys can't admit a collaborator. Allen Ginsberg said something to that effect (Lennon and Dylan's insecurity) in recounting the much-vaunted Beatles-Dylan meeting. If I remember correctly, Ginsberg said he was amazed at how insecure the two camps were--despite having the world at their feet. Maybe it had something to do with achieving success at such a young age. Who knows . . . .
Unfortunately, such lack of artistic generosity belittles them.
-
It's a shame when a musician feels that in a room with another musician he has to keep his idea's to himself. To me, I feel it ruins many a potentially great encounter.....think of all the great records in the world that were not released due to 'intellectual property' issues. Agents, contract stickiness and power tripped d*cks!..... Vultures!!!!!
it's a subject that really winds me up.
-
I think that's the problem with the Beatles solo albums from the 70s. Session guys are only going to give you so much unless you give them writer credit. Bowie was smart to give Carlos Alomar credits on "Fame" etc.
The Beatles was a creative unit--in which everybody, including Ringo, Mal, Neil, etc., would throw in their two cents and get taken seriously. Session players don't do that. Hired gun producers may be able to, but look at what Jack Douglass did to some decent Lennon songs. Soupy, synthy Doublemint Fantasy.
-
Many fans love the equally-partnered Lennon-McCartney myth. I've suspected for the longest time that Paul was the greater collaborater and composer. I think he helped John more than John helped him in song creation and dynamics.
I think the Beatles had a lot of help and the best at that. They had all the resources and expert advice at their feet. They were such a hot coveted commodity that everyone wanted them to be the Best and to sell the Best.
I think Lennon himself once said that a lot of the Beatles story was BS. I don't remember the exact quote.
-
Actually George Martin wrote all the Beatles music. The Beatles themselves were just fabrications of EMI's secret weapons division.
The US Dept of Defense tried to counter with Don Kirshner and the Monkees, but it just didn't work.
Luckily the Soviets were light years behind in boy band fabrication.
-
A Dutch newspaper revealed this today:
The Beatles hebben de melodie van hun klassieker Yesterday gejat van een Napolitaans volkswijsje.
Dat zegt de Italiaanse muziekexpert en componist Lilli Greco. Als bewijs speelde hij in een nieuwsuitzending op de piano het liedje Piccere
-
According to Greco, Epstein revealed that John and Paul used to love old music from Napoli.
It's in all the books. Italian icecream-men would travel to Liverpool and sing to eager young urchins, who dashed home and doning fake mostaches (sp) would copy their new-found heroes. Paul's cousin Dingle famously said "being a saprano's alright Paul, but you'll look like a dork."
Luckily for the world Paul listened. Though rumour has it that Sgt Pepper, with its overt facial hair and brightly coloured Napolese Icecream-man suits was originally called "Il Tricheco ha dei mucchi" and was to contain mostly Italian folk music, until George told him to stop being a pretentious nobhead, and went off and wrote Within You Without You.
-
Ah, the Italian Conspiracy, facilitated by Girgio Martino . . .
-
I mentioned The family Way as an example of a theme composed by Paul without Lennon credits ... so the agreement in that case was somehow broken ... Lennon's solo project (Give Peace A Chance) was another example ...
[..]
(http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/1355/colemanbu4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
McCARTNEY. YESTERDAY AND TODAY (by Ray Coleman)
Chapter 5 - The Enigma of John Lennon
'He wore a suit of armour'
"[...]The healthy partnership and camaraderie that evolved from Paul and John's competitive streak was only one step away from sibling rivalry. It now transpires that one of John's earliest 'hurts' inflicted by Paul was McCartney's solo writing of the music for the Hayley Mills film The Family Way in 1966. 'I was told recently by Yoko that one of the things that hurt John over the years was me going off and doing The Family Way," Paul says. The filmmaking Boulting brothers had approached him via George Martin. 'I thought this was a great opportunity. We were all free to do stuff outside the Beatles and we'd each done various little things.'
When he mentioned it to John, Paul said, 'He would have had his suit of armour on and said: "No, I don't mind." However, my reasoning would be that at exactly the same time he went off to make a film. He wrote his books [In His Own Write and A Spaniard In The Works]. It was in the spirit of all that. But what I didn't realize was that this was the first time one of us had done it on songs. John would write a book and I was supposed not to be jealous, which I wasn't. He acted in a film [How I Won the War]. But I didn't realize he made a distinction between all those solo things and actually writing music because this was the first time one of us had done it in film scoring. I suppose what I should have said was: "I'd like to write it with John," and then that would have been OK. It actually didn't occur to me at that time at all. So I went off, saw and liked the film, said: "Right, come on George [Martin]," and I must say it was all over very quickly.' He was especially proud of the speed with which he wrote the song 'Love in the Open Air', 'which picked up an Ivor Novello award as the best film song that year, which I was always very proud of. [...]"
from here:http://wingspan.ru/bookseng/coleman/coleman05.html
P.S. Interesting reading ... Paul's view of John
-
Ringo got credits for his contribution (he played drums!!! ::)) to "Really Love You" (Flamig Pie, 1997)!!!
"'Really Love You' is the first time you and Paul have been credited as writing together, just the two of you."
"Well, I was surprised when I spoke to Paul, because we did just make it up as we went along. He called me and said I was sharing the credit and I said, "Thank you very much". I wasn't expecting anything. It's like, "you play on my albums through the years, and I'll play on yours". I don't get union rate! You know, we usually have dinner and send each other flowers and that's it."
from here: http://wingspan.ru/magazines/cs/cs83/page05.html
-
Actually George Martin wrote all the Beatles music. .
He made the chords not more.
-
He made the chords not more.
He probably, among other things, chose (and played some) instruments and arrangements too :) ... by the way, adamzero was kidding, you know! ;)
-
Was I, Rax, or did EMI just get to me? The Vatican's probably mixed up in this thing too.
-
Was I, Rax, or did EMI just get to me? The Vatican's probably mixed up in this thing too.
I don't know what to believe now!!! ;D
-
[...]but we must remember that almost everything Paul or John added to a song written by the other was just an arrangement (one chord or harmony or even one word) most of the times ... and nobody doubt that he (whoever in every case) should have got credits for that ... because we consider that he (whoever again) was composing/writing ... not arranging ... but the thing is that there were more people who did that too in many songs (George, Ringo, and others including Sir George too) ... and I don't care if their main roles were musicians, producers, arrangers, friends or wifes/girlfriends ... Linda got credits in 1971 ... ::)
"Another Day
Paul's first solo single, to which John Lennon referred to in his song 'How Do You Sleep'. Its theme was about the drudgery of office life.
The songwriting was credited to Paul and Linda, which caused a slight panic at ATV Music who had spent millions purchasing Northern Songs in a deal that included rights to new material from Paul and John. At the time, the Evening Standard reported that 'half the copyright is being claimed by Maclen Music Ltd (the first assignees of copyright of all Lennon and McCartney compositions), and the other half by a company called McCartney Inc.'
In a Rolling Stone interview with Paul Gambaccini, Paul was to say, 'Lew Grade suddenly saw his songwriting concession, which he'd just paid an awful lot of money for, virtually to get hold of John and I, he suddenly saw that I was claiming that I was writing half my stuff with Linda, and that if I was writing half of it she was entitled to a pure half of it, no matter whether she was a recognised songwriter or not. I didn't think that was important, I thought that whoever I worked with, no matter what the collaboration was, that person, if they did help on the song, should have a portion of the song for helping me. I think at the time their organisation suddenly thought, "Hello, they're pulling a fast one, they're trying to get some of the money back," whereas in fact, it was the truth.' [...]"
from here: http://wingspan.ru/bookseng/encyclopedia/a.html
-
Funny how Paul wasn't as generous with writing credits with George and Ringo during the Beatles. I guess Linda was just a better songsmith than those two hacks.