DM's Beatles forums

Solo forums => Fifth Beatles and the Merseybeat Scene => Topic started by: Bobber on February 28, 2009, 09:42:24 AM

Title: Rod Murray: bass
Post by: Bobber on February 28, 2009, 09:42:24 AM
I bumped into this the other day. It looks as if the choice for Stuart to become the Beatles'  bassplayer was quite random. It could have been Rod Murray as well. This quote was taken from liverpoolecho.co.uk, an article about a new exhibition on Stu's art.

Quote
Those looking for evidence here of Stuart Sutcliffe
Title: Re: Rod Murray: bass
Post by: Xose on February 28, 2009, 12:03:49 PM
Quote from: 63
I bumped into this the other day. It looks as if the choice for Stuart to become the Beatles'  bassplayer was quite random. It could have been Rod Murray as well. This quote was taken from liverpoolecho.co.uk, an article about a new exhibition on Stu's art...

Good point!! ;)

It's time to pulverize son many Beatles related myths...

Best!! ;)

Xose
Title: Re: Rod Murray: bass
Post by: Bobber on February 28, 2009, 12:10:51 PM
I noticed this story in Bill Harry's encyclopedia as well by the way.
Title: Re: Rod Murray: bass
Post by: Xose on February 28, 2009, 12:14:02 PM
Quote from: 63
I noticed this story in Bill Harry's encyclopedia as well by the way.

Oh I see...

Which entry??

Thank you in advance!! ;)

Xose
Title: Re: Rod Murray: bass
Post by: Bobber on February 28, 2009, 12:26:56 PM
Under Rod Murray.
Title: Re: Rod Murray: bass
Post by: Xose on February 28, 2009, 01:21:53 PM
Quote from: 63
Under Rod Murray.

(confused) (confused) (confused)

Rod Murray?? My copy of Bill Harry's The Beatles Encyclopedia has no entry for Rod Murray. It contains an entry for 'Murray, Mitch' (=pp. 786-787) and, after that one, jumps to 'Museum Hall, Henderson Street, Bridge of Allan, Stiringshire, Scotland' (=page 787)... :-/

Maybe Bill can solve the mistery...

Xose
Title: Re: Rod Murray: bass
Post by: Bobber on February 28, 2009, 01:28:19 PM
I see I have the 1992 first American edition.
Title: Re: Rod Murray: bass
Post by: Xose on February 28, 2009, 01:36:09 PM
Quote from: 63
I see I have the 1992 first American edition.

Mine is 2000 Virgin Publishing Ltd. English edition. Why are they 'so' different?? (confused)

Xose

Title: Re: Rod Murray: bass
Post by: Bill Harry on February 28, 2009, 06:31:15 PM
Virgin just scrubbed 40,000 words out of the revised edition because of the huge length. When published it was twelve hundred pages. They said that the printer couldn't produce a book with more pages than that and they then had to scrub the rest, otherwise it would have been about fifteen hundred pages in length.
I just e-mailed Rod the other day, he still has that unfinished bass guitar he was making. Lots of stories that appear in the media as if they are new, have been revealed in my books for the past thirty years. Rod was actually Stu's best friend at the college, not John.
Here's a short item about Rod which was in my 'John Lennon Encyclopedia.'

MURRAY, ROD. A youth from the West Derby area of Liverpool. He enrolled at Liverpool College of Art in 1958. Rod befriended Stuart Sutcliffe and eventually invited Stuart to share a flat he rented at 8 Gambier Terrace. John Lennon also began staying at the flat on a regular basis.
     John, Stu, Rod and Bill Harry used to get together on a regular basis and at one time Harry suggested they called themselves
Title: Re: Rod Murray: bass
Post by: Xose on February 28, 2009, 07:55:54 PM
Quote from: 1062
Virgin just scrubbed 40,000 words out of the revised edition because of the huge length. When published it was twelve hundred pages. They said that the printer couldn't produce a book with more pages than that and they then had to scrub the rest, otherwise it would have been about fifteen hundred pages in length.
I just e-mailed Rod the other day, he still has that unfinished bass guitar he was making. Lots of stories that appear in the media as if they are new, have been revealed in my books for the past thirty years. Rod was actually Stu's best friend at the college, not John.
Here's a short item about Rod which was in my 'John Lennon Encyclopedia.'...

Thank SO much for your explanation!! ;)

Best!! ;)

Xose
Title: Re: Rod Murray: bass
Post by: alexis on March 01, 2009, 05:57:12 AM
I don't get it ... all the thousands of words about John and Stu BFF, soul mates, and the like, was just plain untrue?
Title: Re: Rod Murray: bass
Post by: pc31 on March 01, 2009, 06:28:15 PM
not entirely alex...myth poking seems to be a favorite pasttime for many...rewriting hiostory gets you known....
Title: Re: Rod Murray: bass
Post by: Ligger on March 02, 2009, 03:06:48 AM
It is interesting to watch Rod, himself, talk about the story.

He starts at about 0:30 just after Allan Williams:


Kh0sNwZ5vzw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh0sNwZ5vzw)



The clip is from a 2003 documentary, The Beatles: A Long and Winding Road.
Title: Re: Rod Murray: bass
Post by: alexis on March 02, 2009, 05:15:51 AM
Quote from: 1122
It is interesting to watch Rod, himself, talk about the story.

He starts at about 0:30 just after Alan Williams:


Kh0sNwZ5vzw ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh0sNwZ5vzw[/url])



The clip is from a 2003 documentary, The Beatles: A Long and Winding Road.


Hey Ligger, this is a GREAT clip, thanks so much!

"Coffee Bar layabouts" ... how about that for an early description of the Fab Four!
Title: Re: Rod Murray: bass
Post by: Bill Harry on March 02, 2009, 11:19:22 AM
Recent history does need re-writing - simply to get at the truth. It's the liggers who create these inaccurate stories and they need to be challenged. Look at that ridiculous story, for instance, that the Beatles got their name from 'The Wild One' movie, banned in Britain until 1968; or that Brian Epstein bought thousands of copies of 'Love Me Do'; or even the Beatles assertion that when they came back from Germany all the Liverpool groups were playing Shadows music; the disparagement of Alf Lennon because Aunt Mimi refused to have his interview used in the official biography; or that John Lennon was born in the middle of an air raid....and so it goes on, lots of myths that do need attending to. If its a choice between the truth and the myth, the myth generally wins out every time.
Title: Re: Rod Murray: bass
Post by: alexis on March 02, 2009, 01:49:56 PM
Quote from: 1062
Recent history does need re-writing - simply to get at the truth. It's the liggers who create these inaccurate stories and they need to be challenged. Look at that ridiculous story, for instance, that the Beatles got their name from 'The Wild One' movie, banned in Britain until 1968; or that Brian Epstein bought thousands of copies of 'Love Me Do'; or even the Beatles assertion that when they came back from Germany all the Liverpool groups were playing Shadows music; the disparagement of Alf Lennon because Aunt Mimi refused to have his interview used in the official biography; or that John Lennon was born in the middle of an air raid....and so it goes on, lots of myths that do need attending to. If its a choice between the truth and the myth, the myth generally wins out every time.

And that, sir, is why we are so blessed to have Mr. Bill Harry on our forums!!  :)

Getting back to Rod Murray's narrative - I had never realized how directly Eddie Cochrane's death affected the arc of the Beatles career. As I understand it, to summarize the youtube - Eddie Cochrane dies in a car wreck in England (Liverpool?), Gene Vincent lives, but the promoter needs a new act to keep the bill full. So they audition some Liverpool groups, apparently one of the worst of who was the Beatles.

Does that sound right? Is this where they were chosen to do the Johnny Gentle tour? Is this where the photo of them playing, with Johnny Hutchinson drumming and John Lennon in white spat shoes doing a Buddy Holly guitar pose, comes from? And come to think of it, with Stu Sutcliff playing bass, was Rod Murray just in the audience for the audition?
Title: Re: Rod Murray: bass
Post by: Bill Harry on March 02, 2009, 02:46:26 PM
This is the sequence of the story (incidentally, it was Dave Dee, who was a police cadet at the time, who attended the accident in which Eddie died). Larry Parnes had booked both Eddie and Gene into Liverpool Stadium for a concert, also to be co-promoted by Allan Williams.
It was decided that a new concert be arranged and that due to Eddie's death, the missing part of the bill would be filled by local groups.
This event took place on Tuesday May 3 1960. The groups Williams booked were Cass & the Cassanovas, Rory Storm & the Hurricanes and Gerry & the Pacemakers. Allan didn't book John's group (they weren't called the Beatles then) because he'd never booked them or had anything to do with them. Larry Parnes was pleased with the Liverpool groups and asked Allan to arrange an audition as he was looking fora backing band for Billy Fury. The audition took place at the WyvernClub on 10 May. Only four groups were booked for the audition: Cass & the Cassanovas, Derry & the Seniors, Gerry & the Pacemakers and Cliff Roberts & the Rockers. Once again, the group, now called the Silver Beetles, weren't on Allan's list because they were just among the many regulars at the Jacaranda club. It was Stuart who approached Allan asking if they could do the audition and he added them to it.
Parnes was also looking for bands to back Duffy Power, Johnny Gentle and others of his solo acts. Billy Fury also attended the audition.
The Silver Beetles drummer Tommy Moore turned up late and initially Johnny Hutchinson sat in with them. Parnes said that he didn't like the drummer being tardy, he was dressed differently from the others and was a lot older. He never had any comment to make about Stuart. Parnes booked the Silver Beetles to back Johnny Gentle on the short Scottish tour and of course, Allan got his agent's fee. He then booked them at his Jacaranda club to replace the Royal Caribbean Steel Band. He had an agency Jacaranda Enterprises in which he also booked groups such as Gerry & the Pacemakers and Derry & the Seniors and he began booking the Silver Beetles and Gerry onto the Grosvenor Ballroom Birkenhead and the Institute, Neston.
Because of the booking to back Duffy Power on tour, Derry & the Seniors turned professional. Then the gig was cancelled. Derry Wilkie and Howie Casey went to see Allan and he said he'd take them down to the Two I's in London. They got there, they played and by coincidence Bruno Koschmider was in the club at the time looking for groups to book for his club in Hamburg, having already booked the Jets, another band he'd seen at the Two I's.
Then Koshmider contacted Allan to ask him to send another Liverpool band. Allan asked Gerry & the Pacemakers, Gerry turned him down.
He then asked Rory Storm & the Hurricanes, but they had been booked for a Butlins season. In desperation, he homed in on the Silver Beetles. One could ask - if he was supposed to be the Beatles manager (rather than the agent), why didn't he make them his first choice to go to Hamburg?
Title: Re: Rod Murray: bass
Post by: Bobber on March 02, 2009, 03:35:37 PM
Quote from: 1062
He never had any comment to make about Stuart.

There's another myth...
Title: Re: Rod Murray: bass
Post by: Jane on March 02, 2009, 09:49:14 PM
Very interesting Mr. Bill Harry! Now that I am readind the book by Alan Clayson about Allan Williams and the bands... And you give this information!
Title: Re: Rod Murray: bass
Post by: pc31 on March 03, 2009, 02:00:16 AM
didn't i tell you it would help to have you on a forum bill??a myth buster.....sir willams m b.... ;D
one thing bothers me....i had read that parnes was into guys not girls....not to take anything away from anybody,eppy leaned that way too...was there alot of f**gery in the industry at the time??i suspect it was more rampant than revealed thru time....why is this fact kept so hushed???and who are the f**s bill????lol  ;Dkidding you don't have to answer this.... ;)
that's how we crossed paths you told me something at my awful moondog site was innaccurate.....the jets opened the door........who was the lead jet bill and why the hell wasn't joe brown involved?????roy young was there too who did he go over with??
and now to address the eddie c discussion...i think eddie was gonna be big...maybe bigger than elvis what's his face...he was set to film a movie and tour america...gene's career sadly was screwed in america so across the pond was the best thing for him...him and eddie were good friends...i feel for gene losing his best friend and the best thing to happen to his career...the devil must have really been after him....gene wanted eddie to stay in europe but eddie wanted to do the movie...he was gonna come back he even told gene that.....it's just a sad freaking tragedy....but at least we have his music and genes too....i think that they fit in perfect with the early rockers in england and may have inspired more bands than most people realize...
Title: Re: Rod Murray: bass
Post by: Ligger on March 03, 2009, 03:15:39 AM
Wow. I didn't mean to offend anyone by posting that YouTube video, least of all, Bill Harry.

I just thought that it would be of interest to DM forum members to actually see and hear Stuart's best friend from the Art College (and ex Dissenter), Rod Murray, since he does not do many of these documentaries, as far as I know.

Believe me, I would have edited out myth-spinner, Allan Williams, if I had the tech savvy. Just posting that un- edited video took several tries.
Title: Re: Rod Murray: bass
Post by: alexis on March 03, 2009, 03:39:20 AM
No prob, Ligger, I for one am thankful you did that. And even hearing Alan Williams, whether he is the font of truth or not, is very cool, IMO.


Hey, does anyone here know anyone who does professional video ... can someone do a Beatle project ... "Bill Harry Remembers"?
Title: Re: Rod Murray: bass
Post by: Bill Harry on March 03, 2009, 10:46:28 AM
Yes, Larry Parnes was gay and there was a large gay presence in the business side of the music scene. In  liverpool, for instance, Brian Epstein, Peter Brown, Joe Flannery and others.
In the meantime, here is a piece I wrote about Allan for the Encuclopedia:
WILLIAMS, ALLAN. Born in the Merseyside area of Bootle, he was a Liverpool coffee bar owner when he first became acquainted with John Lennon and Stuart Sutcliffe in 1959. The two were among some art students who frequented his Jacaranda Club in Slater Street. Shortly after he
Title: Re: Rod Murray: bass
Post by: BlueMeanie on March 03, 2009, 10:52:27 AM
^ Unfortunately, the myth usually makes for better reading. Ask any tabloid editor!
Title: Re: Rod Murray: bass
Post by: Bill Harry on March 03, 2009, 03:39:35 PM
Yes, I'm aware of that. But does that mean we should abandon telling the truth? I've found in some cases that the truth is better than the myth. I know that people generally don't care about the mistakes that occur in the Beatles story, at least, where facts in their biographical history is concerned - such as the ridiculous assertion that they got their name from the Marlon Brando film - but you get a few facts wrong about their recording times, recording dates, or songs and you will have hordes of angry people descending on you!
Title: Re: Rod Murray: bass
Post by: Xose on March 03, 2009, 04:48:28 PM
Quote from: 1062
Yes, I'm aware of that. But does that mean we should abandon telling the truth? I've found in some cases that the truth is better than the myth. I know that people generally don't care about the mistakes that occur in the Beatles story, at least, where facts in their biographical history is concerned - such as the ridiculous assertion that they got their name from the Marlon Brando film - but you get a few facts wrong about their recording times, recording dates, or songs and you will have hordes of angry people descending on you!

I totally agree with you. In fact, something similar happened to me regarding The Beatles and Spanish guitars. There were stories circulating out there telling that John Lennon owned a Ramirez guitar, and the fact is, until now, no Ramirez guitar has been seen in John''s hands, judging from pics and other relevant documentation, something which is not only important for me, but for Amalia Ramirez (=i.e., the actual owner of Ramirez shop in Madrid) herself...

Best!! ;)

Xose
Title: Re: Rod Murray: bass
Post by: Ligger on March 05, 2009, 11:40:24 PM
Has anyone actually seen this half-finished bass guitar that Rod Murray started building? What's it look like? I heard that it was finally on display somewhere in Liverpool recently.

Is Stuart's bass still at one of the Hard Rock Cafes?
Title: Re: Rod Murray: bass
Post by: pc31 on March 06, 2009, 01:32:01 AM
Quote from: 1062
Yes, I'm aware of that. But does that mean we should abandon telling the truth? I've found in some cases that the truth is better than the myth. I know that people generally don't care about the mistakes that occur in the Beatles story, at least, where facts in their biographical history is concerned - such as the ridiculous assertion that they got their name from the Marlon Brando film - but you get a few facts wrong about their recording times, recording dates, or songs and you will have hordes of angry people descending on you!

the group on the brando movie were the beetles......chino told johnny...
 That's better Johnny. You know I miss you. Ever since the club split up, I miss you. We all missed ya... you miss 'im? yea. The Beetles missed ya. All the Beetles missed ya. Come on Johnny, let's you and me go inside and have a beer...
hT_xrsjKN_Y (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hT_xrsjKN_Y)i think lee marvin was chino...
Title: Re: Rod Murray: bass
Post by: pc31 on March 06, 2009, 01:37:53 AM
i read that in one book that was where the name came from...i never believed it tho...
Title: Re: Rod Murray: bass
Post by: Xose on March 06, 2009, 10:55:21 AM
Quote from: 1122
Has anyone actually seen this half-finished bass guitar that Rod Murray started building? What's it look like? I heard that it was finally on display somewhere in Liverpool recently...

Aha... Does anybody have any photos of it??

Xose

Title: Re: Rod Murray: bass
Post by: Ligger on March 06, 2009, 01:12:08 PM
Rod Murray's story, in the video, is so cool:

It's December, 1959. He and Stuart help each other carry their massive paintings from Gambier Terrace all the way to the Walker Art Gallery to enter into the Second Moores competition. Stuart's entry is a huge dyptic, so after making two trips, they have to go back to the flat for the second panel. Instead, they get waylayed by a pal, for a few beers, and never make it.

And the thing is, the partial painting gets noticed by Mr. Moores' son. And then purchased by his dad as a gift for him. This is the stuff of legends.

But is Rod's tale really true...

...or just more myth making?



Here is one part of Stuart's 1959, Summer Painting:

(http://stuartsutcliffeart.com/images/gallery/image_1135350015.jpg)


I wonder what ever happened to the second panel,

that the two roommates never went back to the flat for.
Title: Re: Rod Murray: bass
Post by: Bill Harry on March 06, 2009, 01:32:24 PM
Yes, Rod tells me he has pics of it. He still has it. He is going to prepare his story, with photos, for my Mersey Beat site.
Title: Re: Rod Murray: bass
Post by: Ligger on March 06, 2009, 01:44:39 PM
The half-finished bass, Bill?

Or the second panel of The Summer Painting?
Title: Re: Rod Murray: bass
Post by: Xose on March 06, 2009, 02:38:09 PM
Quote from: 1062
Yes, Rod tells me he has pics of it. He still has it. He is going to prepare his story, with photos, for my Mersey Beat site.

Perfect!! ;)

Please, let us know...

Best wishes!! ;)

Xose
Title: Re: Rod Murray: bass
Post by: Ligger on March 08, 2009, 02:59:40 AM
It was November, 1959 (or perhaps a few months before) when when Stuart and Rod brought those paintings over to the Walker Art Gallery to enter in the Second John Moores Competition.

The show ran from Nov 59 - Jan 60, so I imagine the preliminaries to narrow down the best works to be accepted for exhibition took place a few months before the actual opening.

I found a copy of a Christmas play (pantomime) that was written in 1959 by roommates: John, Stuart and Rod. It was  auctioned at Christies almost seven years ago.

Here is a link:

http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=3902589

There is some irony in the fact that the manuscript references Stuart's painting
being accepted in the John Moores show.

Throughout  two scenes the character Ella

(played by June Harry),  repeats the line,  "I've got a painting in the John Moores Show. "

Someone must have been taking the mickey out of Stuart.

Here is a link to June (Burnett) Harry's memory of the the event.
She has some great things to say about one of John's favorite teachers (her husband, Philip Burnett) too:

http://www.ukplus.co.uk/stoke/truestory/3832


Here is a photo of June with some of the Art College gang from October, 1958:

(http://www.beatlesource.com/savage/1950s/58.10.xx%20ye%20cracke/03.jpg)


June is on the bottom right. John and Cyn are in the rear.