DM's Beatles forums

Beatles forums => Polls => Topic started by: DaveRam on June 22, 2009, 08:24:36 AM

Title: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: DaveRam on June 22, 2009, 08:24:36 AM
Which Beatle do you think was the most English , in terms of their writing and attitude ?
I think all of them lost a certain amount of Englishness through their fame and travelling .
George and Paul always struck me as been more at ease with their Englishness , whie John and Ringo seem more mid Atlantic ? (smile)
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Penny Lane on June 22, 2009, 08:38:05 AM
What an interesting question.  Off the top of my head, I would say it's probably Paul who's retained most of his "Englishness."  I think I read somewhere in his book that he was rather taken aback at how "American" John's manner of speaking seemed after moving to New York, as though Paul were somewhat uncomfortable with that.  

I can see John and Ringo embracing outside customs and ways more easily, whereas I feel that Paul would cling on to his English nationality more.  I'm sure he's gotten a healthy dose of American culture, however, from his love of American music and from Linda and Nancy.  As for George, I think his heart and being truly belonged in India, although I don't suppose he ever lost his dry British sense of humor.

Just my two cents!
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: DaveRam on June 22, 2009, 08:40:12 AM
I've gone with George , his love of gardening is very English , his love of India is also very English .
His songs although universal in theme also have a English feel to them , think it's it's due to the fact he had a very dry English/British sense of humour and a certain eccentricity about him ?
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: georgeharrisonluver on June 22, 2009, 08:43:24 AM
I voted Paul because he seems the most "proper" English Beatle, more Londony especially with Jane. George is a close second, he has the most "scouse" to him, but definatly George or Paul.
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: DaveRam on June 22, 2009, 08:54:58 AM
^^^^ Agree about Paul and the Londony observation , he does seem more London than Liverpool these days .
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Sondra on June 22, 2009, 09:40:54 AM
Paul was married to an American his whole life though. How English is that? He actually learned to barbecue and stuff. Heh.
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Penny Lane on June 22, 2009, 09:46:02 AM
^  Yeah, but they were all married to Americans at one point or another.  Paul and Linda, John and Yoko (Japanese-American), Ringo and Barbara, and George and Olivia.
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Sondra on June 22, 2009, 09:47:16 AM
Not John! But then, he became one so...
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Penny Lane on June 22, 2009, 09:51:08 AM
^  Didn't Yoko consider herself Japanese-American?
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Sondra on June 22, 2009, 09:54:20 AM
It's funny. When they first came over and got their first impressions of America, Paul said the snottiest things. Then, he ends up having a great and long lasting marriage to an American girl, loses her, has a short and horrible marriage to an English girl, and then goes back into a great relationship with another American girl. See what I'm saying about stereotypes? I'm sure he's learned not to make such generalizations.

BTW, I'm NOT implying girls from one place are better than girls from other places. My point is about his arrogant attitude and how it ended up being just that, arrogance based on limited exposure to people.

Feel like I had to clarify that before the backlash.
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Sondra on June 22, 2009, 09:54:56 AM
Quote from: 1620
^  Didn't Yoko consider herself Japanese-American?

Maybe later on. But didn't she have to go through the same thing he did to become a citizen?
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: BlueMeanie on June 22, 2009, 10:04:07 AM
Olivia is Mexican.
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Penny Lane on June 22, 2009, 10:05:44 AM
Quote from: 216
It's funny. When they first came over and got their first impressions of America, Paul said the snottiest things. Then, he ends up having a great and long lasting marriage to an American girl, loses her, has a short and horrible marriage to an English girl, and then goes back into a great relationship with another American girl. See what I'm saying about stereotypes? I'm sure he's learned not to make such generalizations.

BTW, I'm NOT implying girls from one place are better than girls from other places. My point is about his arrogant attitude and how it ended up being just that, arrogance based on limited exposure to people.

Feel like I had to clarify that before the backlash.

No backlash.  What snotty things did Paul say, exactly?  He was probably naive and ignorant back when he was young.  Lots of outsiders believe in terrible stereotypes about Americans, anyhow. :-/
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Penny Lane on June 22, 2009, 10:06:21 AM
Quote from: 483
Olivia is Mexican.

Olivia, I believe, is American-born, but of Mexican descent.  So she's a Mexican-American.
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Penny Lane on June 22, 2009, 10:07:37 AM
Quote from: 1620

Olivia, I believe, is American-born, but of Mexican descent.  So she's a Mexican-American.

Oops, she was born in Mexico, but moved to America later?  D'oh.  My error.
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Sondra on June 22, 2009, 10:18:30 AM
Quote from: 483
Olivia is Mexican.

Not when George married her. By then she was Mexican-American. Just like we're all Something-American. She was raised and educated in America and is an American citizen. Yoko on the other hand. Well, I have no idea how long she was over here before marrying John. She still doesn't seem American. She just seems, Yoko.
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: DaveRam on June 22, 2009, 10:42:09 AM
^^^^ Don't you think Yoko as a certain English prissiness about her , especially when she speaks , think that might of rubbed off from John ?
Paul seems quite cosmoplitain he's got the British/American thing, his Irish roots and his love of Scotland ?
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Sondra on June 22, 2009, 11:02:07 AM
Yes! Yoko does seem more European for sure. But more high society than John. Probably due to her upbringing. And cosmopolitan is the perfect word for Paul. He seems to be able to absorb the best of all cultures or something like that. But he also seems the most proud of his roots and the most connected to his working class past. Like when he saw The Rutles and was a little weary. Then he found out where Eric Idle was from and said, "It's okay Linda, he's a scouse!" Or something like that. Idle says it on the commentary. I don't think the other three ever cared about stuff like that. I think it's cool though cuz it is so much a part of them.
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: The Swine on June 22, 2009, 01:51:01 PM
yoko looks more japanese to me
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Kevin on June 22, 2009, 02:03:39 PM
Quote from: 971
^^^^ Don't you think Yoko as a certain English prissiness about her

Found this quote about japanese culture;
"Japanese people tend to shy away from overt displays of emotion, and rarely smile or frown with their mouths, Yuki explained, because the Japanese culture tends to emphasize conformity, humbleness and emotional suppression, traits that are thought to promote better relationships."

I don't think smiling came easy to Yoko.  

Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Jane on June 22, 2009, 09:36:47 PM
To me John is more English. He looks more English than the others. He speaks a more English accent and even deliberately preserved the North English accent. Though maybe later changed it. His sense of humour. A touch of rudeness and cruelty. His eccentricity or do you mean the great English eccentricity is all made-up and imagined? His joking in the religious sphere, which is typical of the English; his so called hypocricy, the famous English thing as well. And one more thing which is contraversial (but you, guys, throw it on John) cause all the English men are suspected of that (certainly this is just a stereotype, do not beat me!). He fits the classical stereotype perfectly well.
Then comes George. Reserved, aloof, perfect sense of humour, English by appearance, still waters run deep. Proving the statement that English guys are the most handsome guys in the world, are gentlemen.
Paul doesn`t look English. He looks a bit Jewish. Maybe he has some relatives? Or maybe Scottish or Irish men look like that? But I have always wondered what his true nationality is. His behaviour defies all the English ways...But I maybe wrong.
And Ringo is partly Jewish, isn`t he?
All the same the 4 guys are certainly ENGLISH, and they represent the best and the most typical English features. But here we are speaking about who is the most of the most.
Have to add that this is my opinion. I don`t want to hurt anybody`s feelings.
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Penny Lane on June 22, 2009, 09:41:01 PM
^  No, Ringo isn't Jewish.  Some people thought he was but he said he was not in the Anthology.
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: emmi_luvs_beatles on June 23, 2009, 02:03:57 AM
I think Paul. Because he was a little more 'Proper' English and he lived in London for a while and all that. But George was close. I thought about this for about 10 minutes haha.
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Sondra on June 23, 2009, 03:52:48 AM
Quote from: 185

Found this quote about japanese culture;
"Japanese people tend to shy away from overt displays of emotion, and rarely smile or frown with their mouths, Yuki explained, because the Japanese culture tends to emphasize conformity, humbleness and emotional suppression, traits that are thought to promote better relationships."

I don't think smiling came easy to Yoko.  


Well, that might explain her miserable look all through the Let It Be movie. And every place else. Maybe she really is misunderstood! I seriously never know with her. She's a mystery.
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: DaveRam on June 23, 2009, 07:10:31 AM
Is John the only one to make reference to the English in a song "Sitting In An English Garden " and " The English Army Had Just Won The War "
Can't think of other songs that do apart from I Am The Walrus and A Day In The Life ?
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Bobber on June 23, 2009, 07:33:02 AM
Quote from: 971
Is John the only one to make reference to the English in a song "Sitting In An English Garden " and " The English Army Had Just Won The War "
Can't think of other songs that do apart from I Am The Walrus and A Day In The Life ?

"She was a working girl...."
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Penny Lane on June 23, 2009, 08:00:19 AM
Quote from: 971
Is John the only one to make reference to the English in a song "Sitting In An English Garden " and " The English Army Had Just Won The War "
Can't think of other songs that do apart from I Am The Walrus and A Day In The Life ?

Not a Beatles song, but there is Paul's "English Tea."
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: BlueMeanie on June 23, 2009, 08:05:08 AM
Quote from: 971
Is John the only one to make reference to the English in a song "Sitting In An English Garden " and " The English Army Had Just Won The War "
Can't think of other songs that do apart from I Am The Walrus and A Day In The Life ?

Piggies. Though George doesn't actually say 'English', it's clearly about the social class structure in England.
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: alexis on June 23, 2009, 05:48:37 PM
Quote from: 483
Olivia is Mexican.

= North American  ;) !
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: BlueMeanie on June 23, 2009, 06:04:33 PM
Quote from: 568

= North American  ;) !

Well, I don't know how old she was when she moved to the States, but it seems she was born in Mexico City to Mexican parents, so I'd say that makes her Mexican. But each to their own.  ;)
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Penny Lane on June 23, 2009, 06:10:52 PM
Quote from: 483

Well, I don't know how old she was when she moved to the States, but it seems she was born in Mexico City to Mexican parents, so I'd say that makes her Mexican. But each to their own.  ;)

Mexican by blood/ethnicity, but if she's an American citizen, then she's Mexican-American.  Sandra is right, everyone in the US is considered a "Something"-American (Asian American, Irish American, African American, etc.), unless you're native American.
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: alexis on June 23, 2009, 06:38:45 PM
Quote from: 483

Well, I don't know how old she was when she moved to the States, but it seems she was born in Mexico City to Mexican parents, so I'd say that makes her Mexican. But each to their own.  ;)


http://geography.about.com/library/maps/blrnorthamerica.htm
Hey BM, what I'm saying is, Mexican is North American!  :)
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Sondra on June 24, 2009, 03:46:33 AM
Quote from: 483

Well, I don't know how old she was when she moved to the States, but it seems she was born in Mexico City to Mexican parents, so I'd say that makes her Mexican. But each to their own.  ;)

All the Mexican people who come over the border wanting to be Americans and work their asses off so they can legally become American citizens should never be called Americans? Craig Ferguson and Christopher Hitchens recently became citizens. When they speak, they refer to themselves as Americans and when speaking with other Americans say "we" and "our country" and so on. I think they would be offended if someone said they couldn't be considered Americans cuz they were born somewhere else.
My grandparents weren't born here, yet they were proud to call themselves Americans. Were they wrong? And they were older than Olivia when she came over with her family. Her bio says she was raised and educated here. So I'd say that makes her American. Just sayin'!  :)

Sorry so long winded!
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: alexis on June 24, 2009, 03:50:01 AM
Danger, Will Robinson, danger!!
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Sondra on June 24, 2009, 03:56:10 AM
Why? I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything. Just putting my opinion out there. I don't mean it to come off as angry or offensive. I really don't know how I could phrase it differently. Just read it as I intended it. In a pleasant voice and with a smile on my face.

Also, I think they are legitimate questions. I'm sure there are a lot of people who think that unless you're born in the country, you're never really a part of it. Or something like that. Which is fine. Everyone has opinions. Like BM said, to each his own.
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Penny Lane on June 24, 2009, 04:17:58 AM
Quote from: 216
Why? I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything. Just putting my opinion out there. I don't mean it to come off as angry or offensive. I really don't know how I could phrase it differently. Just read it as I intended it. In a pleasant voice and with a smile on my face.

Also, I think they are legitimate questions. I'm sure there are a lot of people who think that unless you're born in the country, you're never really a part of it. Or something like that. Which is fine. Everyone has opinions. Like BM said, to each his own.

I don't think you're trying to be a jerk, and I agree and understand with what you're saying.  I just think this issue of being called "Something"-American or just plain "American" may be hard to understand for someone who lives outside the US.  We were born and raised with this knowledge, but people who live outside the country may not be aware that we nearly always use these terms to describe immigrant citizens or citizens who are descended from immigrants.

Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: alexis on June 24, 2009, 04:22:24 AM
I think you're right. Probably a USA-specific attitude. Most of us being descended from immigrants and all. Except the Indians, but that's a different story.

Which kind of reminds me of a funny link I came across today, "Give America Back to the Indians" was a subtitle of the article, which sort played on the immigrant theme , in terms of Patrick Buchanan (yes, him!) and others:

http://wonkette.com/409381/english-only-wingnut-conference-cant-spell-conference
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Penny Lane on June 24, 2009, 04:33:36 AM
Quote from: 568
I think you're right. Probably a USA-specific attitude. Most of us being descended from immigrants and all. Except the Indians, but that's a different story.

Yes, exactly.  I'm descended from immigrants, but I consider myself first and foremost an American.  I just break out the hyphenations if people want me to get specific!  :P  Sorry if this is a really stupid question, but how many other countries do the hyphenation thing too, if they have immigrants and their descendants?  What about Canada?

Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: DaveRam on June 24, 2009, 08:50:28 AM
If Paul and George inparticular had taken American citizenship would they be seen as Irish Americans ? and why not English Americans , and how far back do you have to go within your family to get one of these lovely ethnic additions ?
Think i like the sound of Roman/English or Viking/English , in my case .
(wink1)
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: An Apple Beatle on June 24, 2009, 09:18:54 AM
Quote from: 971
Think i like the sound of Roman/English or Viking/English , in my case .
(wink1)

I'm a Roman/English, born in Wales. lol
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: DaveRam on June 24, 2009, 09:44:54 AM
Quote from: 15

I'm a Roman/English, born in Wales. lol

lol just looked up the proper term it's Romano/British but i think you can call yourself Romano/Welch/English and in my case  Romano/Yorkshire Pudding/With English Mustard .

(rolling3)
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: alexis on June 24, 2009, 01:03:24 PM
Quote from: 971

lol just looked up the proper term it's Romano/British but i think you can call yourself Romano/Welch/English and in my case  Romano/Yorkshire Pudding/With English Mustard .

(rolling3)

Well then, we'll just call you Mr. Mustard!

Mr. Poupon, if you have any French blood in you.
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Kevin on June 24, 2009, 03:02:33 PM
I think you are what you feel. People choose to call themselves Italian-American because it feels important to them.
Dave - do you consider yourself English or British?
Though I was born in NZ i consider myself English. I even get quite proud of Kent (my mothers side is from there.) and it's history.

"In the 11th century, the people of Kent adopted the motto Invicta, meaning "undefeated". This naming followed the invasion of Britain by William of Normandy. The Kent people's continued resistance against the Normans led to Kent's designation as a semi-autonomous County Palatine in 1067.
During the medieval and early modern period, Kent played a major role in several of England's most notable rebellions, including the Peasants' Revolt of 1381,  Jack Cade's Kent rebellion of 1450, and Wyatt's Rebellion of 1554 against Queen Mary "

(http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/7084/400pxkentflagsvg.th.png) (http://img198.imageshack.us/i/400pxkentflagsvg.png/)
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: fendertele on June 24, 2009, 03:04:34 PM
Paul seemed the most polite which is very english ;)
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: fendertele on June 24, 2009, 03:06:09 PM
Scottish/Irish/English/Russian <<<< thats quite a wee mix ;)
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: DaveRam on June 24, 2009, 06:12:43 PM
Yes i say i'm English Kevin ,although i have an Irish great grandmother on my mums side of the family .
My dads been doing a family tree and on my mums side he's got back to 1722 on the paternal line and whats interesting is my family as not moved more than 20 miles in 287 years  on the parternal side .
So like yourself been proud of your links to Kent , i'm very proud of been a Yorkshire man first and then English (smile)
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Jane on June 24, 2009, 09:28:43 PM
Quote from: 1620

Yes, exactly.  I'm descended from immigrants, but I consider myself first and foremost an American.  I just break out the hyphenations if people want me to get specific!  :P  Sorry if this is a really stupid question, but how many other countries do the hyphenation thing too, if they have immigrants and their descendants?  What about Canada?


You can`t imagine, guys, how interesting it is for me to read all this.
Americans prefer to call themselves Americans rather than separate ethnic minorities. Is it true? And what about The Cult Of Ethnicity that allegedly erupted in the USA last century? Is it over? What about The Melting Pot changing into The Salad Bowl?
And look, the British think differently. They no longer call themselves British, they prefer to call themselves English, Scottish, Welsh. They specify it! While according to our posters Americans do not distinguish between nationalities. Certainly Olivia is Mexican, if we consider her blood and parents. And she is American, an American citizen. But should she forget about her roots?

Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Penny Lane on June 24, 2009, 10:05:37 PM
Quote from: 1393

You can`t imagine, guys, how interesting it is for me to read all this.
Americans prefer to call themselves Americans rather than separate ethnic minorities. Is it true? And what about The Cult Of Ethnicity that allegedly erupted in the USA last century? Is it over? What about The Melting Pot changing into The Salad Bowl?
And look, the British think differently. They no longer call themselves British, they prefer to call themselves English, Scottish, Welsh. They specify it! While according to our posters Americans do not distinguish between nationalities. Certainly Olivia is Mexican, if we consider her blood and parents. And she is American, an American citizen. But should she forget about her roots?


It depends on who you are.  Generally, if we're referring to others of _____ ethnicity, we call them _____-American.  An individual person may call him/herself that, or just simply American or just his/her ethnicity.  At least that's how it seems to be to me, since I live in a very diverse area.
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Sondra on June 24, 2009, 10:16:16 PM
Quote from: 1393

You can`t imagine, guys, how interesting it is for me to read all this.
Americans prefer to call themselves Americans rather than separate ethnic minorities. Is it true? And what about The Cult Of Ethnicity that allegedly erupted in the USA last century? Is it over? What about The Melting Pot changing into The Salad Bowl?
And look, the British think differently. They no longer call themselves British, they prefer to call themselves English, Scottish, Welsh. They specify it! While according to our posters Americans do not distinguish between nationalities. Certainly Olivia is Mexican, if we consider her blood and parents. And she is American, an American citizen. But should she forget about her roots?

Olivia probably calls herself a Mexican American. Acknowledging her roots. As most of us seem to do. Most of us do NOT forget our roots. That's the point of the whole Something-American thing. Plus, we celebrate traditions and holidays from other countries all the time. So we're very much into our roots. Much more so back East.

American's hardly ever say I'm American when asked what nationality they are. They virtually will always answer with what their heritage is. Which is why the question is usually asked anyway. But really, their nationality is American! I guess if we were in another country, we would say I'm American. I mean, then it would make sense. But then, we might say Italian American or whatever we are. We can't seem to let go of our roots. It's worse back East. Especially with the Irish and Italians. They constantly put each other down and talk about how great their "nationality" is compared to others. It's weird.


I remember the whole Melting Pot to Salad Bowl movement. It didn't catch on. People don't care that much. It is what it is. But schools often teach ethnic diversity and stuff like that so kids are learning to respect other cultures. But that term Salad Bowl is just so lame.
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: alexis on June 24, 2009, 10:18:56 PM
Quote from: 1620

It depends on who you are.  Generally, if we're referring to others of _____ ethnicity, we call them _____-American.  An individual person may call him/herself that, or just simply American or just his/her ethnicity.  At least that's how it seems to be to me, since I live in a very diverse area.

^^ Agree with Ms. Penny Lane.

But remember, Since Mexico is in North America, Olivia can be properly said to be North American, full stop, etc. In this case at least, no need to invoke all the "it depends on how people want to refer to themselves" sort of discussion.


Oh, btw, I voted for Paul, because like was pointed out above, he was always so polite, I associate that with being British. Plus, he barbecues.
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Sondra on June 24, 2009, 10:26:01 PM
Because the world mostly refers to Americans as people from the United States, I think people from Canada and Mexico prefer to call themselves Canadians and Mexicans. They would never say they were American or North American. Especially since Americans are mostly disliked around the world.
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: alexis on June 24, 2009, 10:41:13 PM
Quote from: 216
Because the world mostly refers to Americans as people from the United States, I think people from Canada and Mexico prefer to call themselves Canadians and Mexicans. They would never say they were American or North American. Especially since Americans are mostly disliked around the world.

Good points. Don't forget NAFTA - North American Free Trade Agreement. Mexico, US, Canada.
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: DaveRam on June 25, 2009, 09:44:57 AM
I think whats happening in the UK is quite interesting since devolution there seems to be a more pronounced split into the four nations Northern Irish , Welch , English and Scottish , which i think is healthy .
The British thing always seems very colonial to me and does'nt represent the people who make up these islands , we are different , and that difference is increasing with the influx of immigrants .
English nationalism which you did'nt really hear of his growing in prominence as it is in Scotland .
I suspect the UK will have gone in fifty years time ?
An independent Scotland , a united Ireland i can see on the cards , and maybe the birth of a republic for England & Wales ? just have a feeling that the English and Welsh may stick together ?
I personally would like a republic , when the dear old Queen pops her clogs ?
President McCartney of England & Wales as a nice ring to it ? (wink1)
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Kevin on June 25, 2009, 09:58:53 AM
^ Hi Dave. I hope I live to see the breakup of the UK.
I want an independant England, but as a monarchy (like the Dutch/Belgian model.) It's just such a part of our heritage and "englishness."
I guess the Welsh can hang on if they like, but I always get the feeling they're not very fond of us. I'd rather they went as well.
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: DaveRam on June 25, 2009, 11:00:23 AM
Quote from: 185
^ Hi Dave. I hope I live to see the breakup of the UK.
I want an independant England, but as a monarchy (like the Dutch/Belgian model.) It's just such a part of our heritage and "englishness."
I guess the Welsh can hang on if they like, but I always get the feeling they're not very fond of us. I'd rather they went as well.

I've become more republican Kevin of late , it's not that i don't like the Queen i do, think she's done a good job .
But King Charles fills me with dread the guy is a prize wanker ?
Agree the Dutch/Belgian model is better and maybe a move towards that style of monarchy would temper my republican feelings .
I read that over 70% of the Welsh want to remain part of the UK , the English speakers inparticular , this report i read also said the English are moving into Welsh boarder towns in large numbers .
Suppose with 50 million people living mostly in England it's easy to see why parts of Wales are becoming more English  , plus it's never been independent like Scotland ?
So i think the English and Welsh will remain united with Scotland definitely going independant ?
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Jane on June 25, 2009, 01:40:42 PM
Quote from: 216
I remember the whole Melting Pot to Salad Bowl movement. It didn't catch on. People don't care that much. It is what it is. But schools often teach ethnic diversity and stuff like that so kids are learning to respect other cultures. But that term Salad Bowl is just so lame.

So the idea of the Salad Bowl died the minute it was introduced. And there are some textbooks which claim it exists. However, they may already have got out-of-date cause life is changing fast, faster than textbooks are written.
How do children maintain their native languages? I understand that it is very difficult to do. But are there any schools which teach not only French, German, Spanish?
There is a saying which reads "What the son wishes to forget, the grandson wishes to remember". It is about America by some historian. So finally people should be into the ethnicity thing.

Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: DaveRam on June 25, 2009, 01:49:01 PM
I saw a man on TV not long back saying in 200 years time most of the worlds people will look like Tiger Woods (wink1)
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Jane on June 25, 2009, 01:54:16 PM
Quote from: 216
Because the world mostly refers to Americans as people from the United States, I think people from Canada and Mexico prefer to call themselves Canadians and Mexicans. They would never say they were American or North American. Especially since Americans are mostly disliked around the world.

Right, when people say American they mean somebody from the USA. North American too is definitely a person from the USA, only. But a Russian would never understand what this word means, cause we do not use this sequence. In Latin America NORTE AMERICANO means only a person from the USA. So if Olivia considers herself Mexican or Mexican-American, I don`t think she will call herself North American.

Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Kevin on June 25, 2009, 02:11:00 PM
I agree with you totally Jane. Ethnicity is obviously hugely important to humans (it's an evolution thing). Look around at most of the conflicts in the world and I bet you'll find ethnic conflict at it's root. We're "programmed" to identify with a kindred group and to distrust those that are different. In almost every cosmopolitan city in the world you'll see ethnic types grouping with their own kind, with their own shops, entertainment, language
I just can't accept that human kind will meld into some homogenous Tiger Woods. It's not the human way. As globilisation increases it makes people more aware of their ethnic differences, not less. Even the different ethnic groups in little old Belgium barely get along with each other. Only 4% of marriages in the US are recorded as inter-racial. It is human instinct to stick with our own kind. I think like violence, religion, fear of the dark and creepy crawlies it is an aspect of us that is deeply rooted in our pysche and can't be just "turned off."
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Jane on June 25, 2009, 02:11:44 PM
Quote from: 185
^  I hope I live to see the breakup of the UK.
I want an independant England, but as a monarchy (like the Dutch/Belgian model.)

France will be very happy about that.  ;)
BUT This new independent country will be much weaker than one big country, Great Britain, is now. Now GB can stand up for its interests, can play a significant role in the international affairs. If it breaks up it won`t have enough say in European politics. It`s like in the song: United we stand, separated we fall" (I may confuse the words a bit). It might even lose it`s traditional ally the USA, since the USA needs a strong ally in Europe. So it might switch to France. Look, France invited President Obama to the recent celebrations. And remember all the scandal about the Queen not being invited? France is becoming stronger and stronger, it has a stance of its own. And what will happen to England? It may become just as Latvia is now in Europe.
I don`t think Great Britain will break up. It`s all politics and it is not that simple.
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Sondra on June 25, 2009, 02:24:00 PM
I was speaking more about the term Salad Bowl. People don't use it. If they're gonna use a term, they'll more likely use Melting Pot. But neither completely defines how people deal with cultural diversity in this country. Out her in Los Angeles, it's very much a melting pot. Yes there are sections where people of certain ethnicity stick together, but that's not always based on ethnic pride. Most people out here are mixed and don't really think a lot about their heritage. Back East, it's more common to come across people who are 100% Irish or 100% something else. And they are very much into their ethnicity and even wear it like a badge of honor sometimes. Because this country is so HUGE, different regions behave in different ways. One term cannot possible define a country this big. And it's always changing. Of course. These are just my general impressions. Which people may or may not agree with.
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Kevin on June 25, 2009, 02:25:41 PM
Quote from: 1393
I don`t think Great Britain will break up. It`s all politics and it is not that simple.
[/quote

Hi Jane. Do you know how much the Scots hate the english? They regard us as a colonising power (even though the truth is they sold their souls for a few pieces of silver.) The Scottish Indepence Party is the strongest in Scotland.
They believe they can be prosperous as is Norway and was Iceland. And they'll seek shelter within the EU.
Northern Ireland is just a pain in the arse.
England will do fine on it's own. The celtic fringes suck more tax out of England than any money they give back. I think a breakup would see England economically, morally and socially stronger.
We only play a "significant role in world politics" because we suck up to the US. This has given us nothing but trouble and I think most English would gladly be out of it. We can exert our influence via the EU. Though I agree that loss of perceived influence may be what stops the ruling classes going along with this. But that's why God gave us revolutions.
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Jane on June 25, 2009, 02:31:04 PM
Thank you, Kevin for your insight!
I`ve read an article from the Times which says that "nobody from Newport (England) had a problem with Britishness. In Newport (Wales) some of the Welsh felt British, though others prefer to call themselves European. But it was in Newport-on-Tay (Scotland), that we found the greatest reluctance to be British."
Is the word British used now or is it replaced by the word European? Do you call yourselves Europeans? Or rather not?
The thing is that when I was in England at Surrey University in November 2007 our professor, an Englishman, when answering my question whether I should say "English" emphasised that I should say British. So according to him the word British still exists.  
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Kevin on June 25, 2009, 02:38:40 PM
We definately DO NOT regard ourselves as europeans. English people can't decide between english/british, probably because being the majority ethnic group for us their is no difference. An upper class professor would regard a British tag as fine, because he's in the dominant group and that means being like him. In Scotland adults attack seven year olds for wearing an English football shirt. To them British equals english which equals wankers.
I think most white middle class folk struggle with the whole ethnicity thing, because they generally are the dominant group and can't see what the fuss is all about. They say "we're all the same" because for them "same" means being like them.
I don't think ethnic groups stick together because of pride. They do so because that is what humans do. Doesn't LA have Chinatown, Koreatowwn and the occassional race riot?
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Jane on June 25, 2009, 02:56:17 PM
Quote from: 185
Hi Jane. Do you know how much the Scots hate the english? They regard us as a colonising power (even though the truth is they sold their souls for a few pieces of silver.) The Scottish Indepence Party is the strongest in Scotland.
They believe they can be prosperous as is Norway and was Iceland. And they'll seek shelter within the EU.
Northern Ireland is just a pain in the arse.
England will do fine on it's own. The celtic fringes suck more tax out of England than any money they give back. I think a breakup would see England economically, morally and socially stronger.
We only play a "significant role in world politics" because we suck up to the US. This has given us nothing but trouble and I think most English would gladly be out of it. We can exert our influence via the EU. Though I agree that loss of perceived influence may be what stops the ruling classes going along with this. But that's why God gave us revolutions.

Yes, Kevin, I understand you. "The leader of the Scottish nationalists looks to Europe as Scotland`s new stage." They do not see that it is England that makes them strong.
No revolutions, I protest!

Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Kevin on June 25, 2009, 02:58:12 PM
Don't know if this had made the news elsewhere, but a entire Rumanian community in Northern Ireland was forced from its homes by threats and attacks from locals and were forced to take shelter in a church. They have now fled the country.
This is not a Britishness that I recognise.
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: BlueMeanie on June 25, 2009, 03:00:11 PM
Quote from: 1393
Thank you, Kevin for your insight!
I`ve read an article from the Times which says that "nobody from Newport (England) had a problem with Britishness. In Newport (Wales) some of the Welsh felt British, though others prefer to call themselves European. But it was in Newport-on-Tay (Scotland), that we found the greatest reluctance to be British."
Is the word British used now or is it replaced by the word European? Do you call yourselves Europeans? Or rather not?
The thing is that when I was in England at Surrey University in November 2007 our professor, an Englishman, when answering my question whether I should say "English" emphasised that I should say British. So according to him the word British still exists.  

^ Technically you should say British. On a passport you're meant to give your country of birth as United Kingdom, and your nationality as British. Most Scots and Welsh would say they are Scottish or Welsh. There seems to be a growing number of people in England who give their nationality as English, rather than British. As a Brit living abroad I generally say I'm English rather than British. Most people outside of the UK don't really understand the difference between Great Britain, United Kingdom, and The British Isles. In fact most Danes seem to think that Ireland is part of Great Britain. Fair enough, it took me a while to work out the difference between Scandinavia and 'Nordic Countries'.

On the possible dissolution of the UK, I can't see it happening any time soon. The Scots want out, and have done for as far back as I remember. I'm not sure how I would feel about them splitting from GB as I'm partly Scottish myself (born and bred in England). I don't honestly think the Welsh would do very well on their own; we'd certainly benefit from them splitting. We could easily leave N. Ireland to their own devices - no great loss - but a majority of them want to stay part of the UK.

I think England would come out of a split in pretty healthy condition, and I too favour some kind of slimmed down Monarchy. It is, and has always been great PR for the country, and a massive money spinner tourism wise.
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Jane on June 25, 2009, 03:17:08 PM
Quote from: 185
We definately DO NOT regard ourselves as europeans. English people can't decide between english/british, probably because being the majority ethnic group for us their is no difference. An upper class professor would regard a British tag as fine, because he's in the dominant group and that means being like him. In Scotland adults attack seven year olds for wearing an English football shirt. To them British equals english which equals wankers.
I think most white middle class folk struggle with the whole ethnicity thing, because they generally are the dominant group and can't see what the fuss is all about. They say "we're all the same" because for them "same" means being like them.
I don't think ethnic groups stick together because of pride. They do so because that is what humans do. Doesn't LA have Chinatown, Koreatowwn and the occassional race riot?

1. A quote: "Many Scots and not a few Welsh believe that Britishness is no more than a disguised version of Englishness." That is why they are against it. But if they break up from Britain they will stick more to Europe and in the end will be called European. So they will change one umbrella name to another, so what is all the fuss about?
2. Another reason why people stick together is psychology. In the Soviet times there were a lot of intermarriages, there was no problem with that. While now people from the former Soviet republics who have different ethnicity marry their group. My parents have friends who live in Russia and who are Dagestan-Belarus, Tatar-Russian (there are very many such couples), Ukranian-Russian (every other), Ossetian-Russian, Latvian-Russian. Now young people stick together. Especially those from the former Georgian Republics and surely muslims, who never marry other "religions".
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Kevin on June 25, 2009, 03:25:01 PM
Quote from: 1393

1. A quote: "Many Scots and not a few Welsh believe that Britishness is no more than a disguised version of Englishness." That is why they are against it. But if they break up from Britain they will stick more to Europe and in the end will be called European. So they will change one umbrella name to another, so what is all the fuss about?

But I think the Scots see British as a termed forced upon them (it's not - they joined the Union by choice, but they don't see it that way.) and equate it with oppression
Whereas if they adopt European they'll see that as a choice, and will equate it with equality (even though that might not be the reality)
The word British has bad connotations for the Scots. The word European doesn't. So I think there is a big difference.
The Russian/Soviet thing interests me, but I hate long posts so I'll talk about that later.
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Jane on June 25, 2009, 03:28:31 PM
Quote from: 483
Most people outside of the UK don't really understand the difference between Great Britain, United Kingdom, and The British Isles. In fact most Danes seem to think that Ireland is part of Great Britain. Fair enough, it took me a while to work out the difference between Scandinavia and 'Nordic Countries'.

People used to be taught that England, Britain, Great Britain, The United Kingdom all were one and the same thing. Old textbooks said so. Now I hope people make the distinction. But I can`t see the difference between Great Britain and the United Kingdom. ???

Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: BlueMeanie on June 25, 2009, 03:43:39 PM
Quote from: 1393

People used to be taught that England, Britain, Great Britain, The United Kingdom all were one and the same thing. Old textbooks said so. Now I hope people make the distinction. But I can`t see the difference between Great Britain and the United Kingdom. ???


Great Britain consists of England, Scotland and Wales. The United Kingdom is Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The British Isles is just a geographical name for all the islands that make up Great Britain and Irleland.
Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: Jane on June 25, 2009, 03:50:35 PM
Quote from: 483
The United Kingdom is Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Oh, yes! Thank you!

Title: Re: The Most English Beatle ?
Post by: lucy~(-_-*... on October 14, 2009, 12:23:10 PM
ringo is the most english beatles and that's final! 8)