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[tkitna]

I'm announcing Friday as 'Eat Flesh Friday',

Wonder if Paul will join in?

[Joost]

I just wondered where men then got strength from?

First of all: why are you only talking about men? All human beings need the same kind of nutrition, male or female. Why are you so stuck in the traditional gender roles?
Second: you seem to believe that eating meat is essential for physical strength. It's not. Some of the worlds most successful athletes are vegetarians.
Third: it's a misconception that meat is an essential part of our diet. Meat is not a food group on its own in the food pyramid. Meat, poultry and fish are PART of the fifth food group. Eat enough of the other things in the same food group (the things I mentioned earlier) and you'll do just fine.

All these substitutes are even called substitutes.

Substitute in this case doesn't mean it's fake or artificial food. Meat substitutes are food made of vegetarian ingredients that have pretty much the same nutritional value as meat.

BTW I warn all men here! - is soya. Don`t ever, ever, ever, NEVER eat it! It contains some elements, that are very bad for men. Of course, we can`t avoid it altogether because it is a component of all food nowadays, but we can at least try to reduce our consumption of it and never eat it as it is. And NOT eat it as a substitute for meat, as you suggest. Soya is absolutely harmless for women, as it contains a lot of female "hormones" (I don`t remember what these elements are called in soya itself), but it ruins male`s hormones and men become plump or fat, with female features, they become teary and touchy, crying when watching love films, and other terrible things happen to them, on which I would prefer not to comment. This is all true. Scientific research shows it. If you don`t believe it find it out yourself.

That's a popular rumor but it's never been scientifically proven. Most scientists agree that it's a dramatic overstatement that soy would make males more feminin, and that the health benefits easily outweigh the small negative effects.

crying when watching love films

LOL

[Joost]

As for me, I love eating meat so count me out.  This is good for the ecology too.

It's an undeniable fact that the ecology would be A LOT better off if every human being would stop eating meat today. Do some research.

Just imagine what would happen if everyone in the world stopped eating meat one day a week.  In a few months, cows would be overflowing everywhere!

Do you really think that the planet would be overflowed with cows by now if humanity had always been vegetarian? If we wouldn't eat as much meat as we do now, we wouldn't have to breed so many cows and the natural balance would restore itself.

[Joost]

I'm sorry if I'm coming off too strong and I don't mean to offend anyone, but vegetarianism is something that I'm very passionate about and very strongly believe in. If someone thinks that vegetarianism is nonsense - fine by me, to each his own. I respect everyone that respects me. But it annoys me to no end if people just don't do their research or if they're only trying to provoke people because of their principles.

[Hello Goodbye]

It's an undeniable fact that the ecology would be A LOT better off if every human being would stop eating meat today. Do some research.

Joost, the human species is omnivorous.  That's the way we're designed.  Humans have the conscious choice to be herbivorous if they choose and those who wish to be vegetarian can subsist well.  I certainly need not do research to understand that.

Do you really think that the planet would be overflowed with cows by now if humanity had always been vegetarian? If we wouldn't eat as much meat as we do now, we wouldn't have to breed so many cows and the natural balance would restore itself.

You broke my post up into two parts.  The last three sentences belonged together as a joke I was making.  I'm sorry you didn't recognize it as such.  I fully understand that less cattle would have to be bred for food chain purposes if mankind were to turn herbivorous.  However if you wish to take that concept to its full extent, perhaps we should eliminate domestic carnivorous pets as they consume a huge amount of meat.  That thought can extend to eliminating leather products and furs as well.  I'm fully educated and aware of the ecology and man's impact on it.  You need not concern yourself with proving anything to me as nowhere in my two posts did I ridicule anyone who chooses to be a vegetarian.

But I do appreciate and admire the fervor of your belief in vegetarianism.

 

[Hello Goodbye]

Joost, For the past twelve years I've owned a horse that I rescued from the ultimate fate that racehorses face when their track career ends.  Just a thought I wanted to share with you that you might better understand my thoughts on the subject of mankind's impact on the other species we share this planet with.




Mr. Governor is one of the lucky few who didn't wind up dog or cat food.

[emmi_luvs_beatles]

Mr. Governor is one of the lucky few who didn't wind up dog or cat food.

MY GOD thats a georgus animal.... If it's a racing horse it's a Thuroughbred then?? I'd kill for a horse like that.... Is this one yours?

[Hello Goodbye]

Yes, Emmi.  I've had him since 1997.  He's a dark bay Thoroughbred gelding (16.1 hands) and had a decent racing career, primarily at Santa Anita.  He won a stakes race and finished second in another along the way.  He's a good boy with a calm temperment and is very good with children.  This is most likely due to the breeding farm where he was foaled.  The breeder's children at the time were 4 and 6 and Mr. Governor was treated as a pet.  He would follow the kids into the house!

He's been trained as a hunter and loves the trails.  He can let himself out of his stall and can open all sorts of bolts and snaps.  So I put a bolt on the bottom of his stall door that he can't reach.  Anyway, when he does get out, he stays around the barn....he knows where he gets fed!  He's smart, alright.  All this was evident at the end of his racing career and so he was rescued.

[Joost]

Joost, the human species is omnivorous.  That's the way we're designed.

I disagree.

You broke my post up into two parts.  The last three sentences belonged together as a joke I was making.  I'm sorry you didn't recognize it as such.  I fully understand that less cattle would have to be bred for food chain purposes if mankind were to turn herbivorous.

Sorry for not giving you enough credit. But that's the downside of having written conversations, it's sometimes hard to tell if someone's serious or not. And I have spoken to people who actually believe things like that.

nowhere in my two posts did I ridicule anyone who chooses to be a vegetarian.

Sorry, wasn't talking about you, it was a general comment. And maybe I'm just a bit too touchy because of all that soy... 

[Kevin]

From what little I know, based on my amaturish evolution readings, our ancestors probably survived by scavenging.
In most hunter-gatherer societies that still remain meat remains a very small portion of their diet. Hunting is so expensive time and resource wise (as compared to gathering) that it might exist more for ritualistic than nutritional purposes. (of course people will be able to dig up exceptions, but I'm talking generalties)
In fact in most non-western societies today meat is still a luxury, consumed very rarely. Even for my parents generation the nearest they got to meat was the odd bit of offal.
It seems to me that while we have the capability to be omnivorous, meat as a staple food is a very recent (and unhealthy) invention.
There is still controversy over the importance of meat eating in our evolution. Did eating meat help us get bigger brains? (it didn't for lions). Did co-operating in the hunt bring about language? (it didn't for wolves.)
Phew. I think our natural state is a little meat every now and then. Exposure to lots of meat to large portions of the population is a new phenomena and the jury is out on whether this be a good or bad thing. (since the invention of agriculture we in the west have evolved lactose tolerance beyond childhood. That's been only in 10,000 years, so maybe so much meat will trigger (or is triggering) some other change.

[Hello Goodbye]

I disagree.

Joost, the tables you've listed contain numerous errors, but I'll limit my corrections to humans.  In medicine, I've learned that saliva contains the digestive enzyme salivary amylase which converts starch into simple sugars.  Amylase is classified as a carbohydrate digesting enzyme.  The stomach lining secretes pepsin which breaks down proteins and hydrochloric acid which facilitates the action of pepsin. Gastric Lipase is also secreted by the stomach lining which breaks down fats. Now in youngsters, the gastric lining also secretes rennin which acts on milk.

Now it's on to the small intestine.  Here food, now called chyme, gets mixed with digestive enzymes from the liver via the bile duct and from the pancreas via the pancreatic duct to further digest food. The liver secretes trypsin and erepsin which further break down proteins into amino acids.  The pancreas secretes pancreatic amylase and lipase.  Then it's off to the large intestine where water is absorbed prior to fecal elimination.

The tables you posted do not mention these enzymes.  In addition, the primary muscles of mastication in humans are the masseter, medial pterygoid, temporalis and lateral pterygoid muscles.  The table only mentions the masseters and pterygoids.

The tables also states that the length of the small intestine in humans is 10-11 times the body length.  The small intestine measures only 7 meters in length.

[Joost]

That's all Chinese to me, but I'll take your word for it.

But here's another thing that seperates us from pretty much all the carnivores and omnivores: do you know any humans that are capable of taking a bite out of the raw cadavre of a cow or a pig that they just killed by using nothing but their own hands and teeth? Cause that's how all the other meat eaters do it. Ever saw an animal that needed a knife, a gun or a spear (and fire) to kill their prey and make it edible?

[Hello Goodbye]

Joost, primates have been classified as omnivores.  We humans are just another species of primates.  Out in the wild, our primate relatives subsist on a meat and vegetarian diet.  If they can't find meat, they'll do just fine on plant life.  It's the same with the human species.  But here, if a human chooses not to eat meat, he'll be just fine being a vegetarian.

The classifications listed in those tables really have nothing to do with the philosophy of vegetarianism.  The human animal has the luxury and intelligence not to be an obligate omnivore and be a facultative herbivore instead.  Our anatomical and physiological design allows this option.

Barry


... and Joost, looking at my response to Emmi regarding Mr. Governor, I just realized that at an average monthly board bill of 650 dollars over the last 12 years and average vet and farrier fees of 1.700 dollars a year, I certainly have done my share in saving this one animal from the ecological food chain!   

Mr. Governor quite deserved that intervention.

[Hello Goodbye]

MY GOD thats a georgus animal.... If it's a racing horse it's a Thuroughbred then?? I'd kill for a horse like that.... Is this one yours?

He does look nice, doesn't he?

Mr. Governor does well in shows too:









But he'd rather be out on the trails.

[Hello Goodbye]

And maybe I'm just a bit too touchy because of all that soy... 

You haven't taken to watching love movies, have you Joost?   

[Joost]

You haven't taken to watching love movies, have you Joost?   

The last three movies I watched were all horror movies, so no need to worry yet. 

[Joost]

Joost, primates have been classified as omnivores.  We humans are just another species of primates.  Out in the wild, our primate relatives subsist on a meat and vegetarian diet.  If they can't find meat, they'll do just fine on plant life.  It's the same with the human species.  But here, if a human chooses not to eat meat, he'll be just fine being a vegetarian.

Fair enough. But I still can't accept that's its supposed to be "natural" for us to eat animals that we're not even able to kill or make edible for ourselves without using tools. Let alone that we "need" it on a daily base.

However, it doesn't really matter for me personally. My main reason for being a vegetarian is that (excuse me for sounding like a complete hippie now) I think every life is a miracle. I don't want anything that can feel and has a certain level of consciousness to die before its time. Especially because I can easily survive without meat.

[Hello Goodbye]

The last three movies I watched were all horror movies, so no need to worry yet. 

Whew!  Good to hear!   

Anyway, that would be hormones.  So Joost, when I was in college, I worked training Standardbred race horses.  It wasn't uncommon for fillies to get male hormones to boost their performance a bit.  One of the grooms who worked with me was from the hills of Tennessee.  He comes over to me one day to explain why the filly I was training was acting the way she was.  The conversation went like this:

Patrick:  (spits out a mouthful of tobacco juice) I know why yer filly's been actin' like a colt.
Me:       Why?
Patrick:  She's been gettin' them harmonicas.
Me:       What?
Patrick:  You know, hormonees!
Me:       You mean hormones
Patrick:  Yup, that's what I said, hormonees.
Me:       Yup!

[Joost]

Wait a minute, maybe I just subconsciously prefer horror movies because they won't make me cry? 

 

[emmi_luvs_beatles]

Yes, Emmi.  I've had him since 1997.  He's a dark bay Thoroughbred gelding (16.1 hands) and had a decent racing career, primarily at Santa Anita.  He won a stakes race and finished second in another along the way.  He's a good boy with a calm temperment and is very good with children.  This is most likely due to the breeding farm where he was foaled.  The breeder's children at the time were 4 and 6 and Mr. Governor was treated as a pet.  He would follow the kids into the house!

He's been trained as a hunter and loves the trails.  He can let himself out of his stall and can open all sorts of bolts and snaps.  So I put a bolt on the bottom of his stall door that he can't reach.  Anyway, when he does get out, he stays around the barn....he knows where he gets fed!  He's smart, alright.  All this was evident at the end of his racing career and so he was rescued.

Wow... he is really pretty!! Who shows him? And that sounds like one of our new horses, we made her a make-shift stall since she was getting antsy in our corrall and we couldn't put her in the pasture because she needed a vet check. But she pushed the wall over, snapped the chain on our door to the pasture, and went out running with the other horses it was really funny.