DM's Beatles forums

Other music forums => Musician's Corner => Topic started by: alexis on October 10, 2008, 04:03:31 AM

Title: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: alexis on October 10, 2008, 04:03:31 AM
Hi guys - Have you ever played that 2nd chord ("... all my love") as an E6 instead of a C#m? Give it a try, let me know what you think!

I've always seen it written as a C#m, and played it that way, but listening to Paul's (very muted and muddy) bass line on AHDN, I'm pretty sure he drops to an E.

I love playing it this way (E6), let me know what you guys think please -

Thanks! :)
Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: An Apple Beatle on October 10, 2008, 09:23:05 AM
In the intro Paul drops to an E on bass, I am also sure in the key change instead of a D Paul cheekys in an A. The Outro, Paul Drops to the F.

All of them work great at different times...I know wat u mean about the bass being a bit muddy. ;)
Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: Casbah on December 11, 2008, 02:26:19 AM
Paul is playing bass chords on that and he plays E on the second pass of the guitar intro, but when the lyrics kick in, he drops to C#m. The reason it sounds muddy is he is playing the F#m bass chords high in the register as XX46 and C#m lower as X46X.
Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: McLennon on December 19, 2008, 05:35:41 PM
How is E6 played??

I've always played Cm! Apart from after the guitar solo, on the final verse, I play (as far as I rememer) Fm - Dm!
Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: Casbah on December 31, 2008, 04:18:11 AM
E6 is played as O22120 (if you are looking at the strings as EADGBE

The E6 is definitely in there, but only when George is playing the intro and then the outro guitar lines. (As F6, since there is the key change)

During the lyrics, the chord is C#m. You can play an E6 and it will sound nice, however, if that's the way you want to do it...
Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: Kirkwood on January 03, 2009, 01:24:37 PM
I'm not sure what my guys use fingering wise.  You might be able to tell by looking at their fingers.  There is a decent camera angle halfway in.

And I Love Her - Ed Turner and Number 9

a7ZW_C4_syg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7ZW_C4_syg)
Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: Xose on March 04, 2009, 10:55:26 AM
Dominic Pedler, The Songwriting Secrets of The Beatles, London, Omnibus, 2004, discusses this question at length.

BTW: what do you think about George's use of vibrato in 'And I Love Her' solo vs. his NON-use of vibrato at previous takes from 1964, February the 25th.?? (=in these takes he doesn't play the Ramirez but the Ricky 12...)

I would like to read your opinninons about this topic...

Best!! ;)

Xose
Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: Pilzkopf on March 07, 2009, 08:32:39 AM
Alexis - the problem with playing solo guitar, especially  using a strumming technique, is that  subtleties of harmony can get lost. It's  often a matter of chance whether you hit  the bass E string or not. But which note is  the lowest note does make a difference.

For example, Am is made up of A, E and C.  The normal configuration on the guitar is  with the bass E not sounded (hopefully),  leaving the A string to provide the strong  tonic note at the bottom of the pile. But  if you plant your fifth finger down on C as  the bass note, the effect is very nearly to  destroy it as a minor chord altogether. Now  it sounds more like C6.  (To hear the  difference it's better to pluck with your  fingers, limiting the sound to the middle  four strings.)

So it's the bass note that really determines what the chord actually is. But rhythm guitarists in a band don't need to  bother too much about the configuration of  a particular chord in terms of which note  to put on which string, because the  all-important bass note is handled by the  bass guitar. It doesn't matter which of  those notes John is playing on the low  string (if he even hits it), because  whatever it is, it's overridden by Paul's  bass.

The point about E6 is that it's basically  Emaj with an alien C# that seems to want to  turn the chord into C#m. And if Paul played C# at that point, that's what would happen. But in the instrumental intro his bass E prevents that, locking the harmony firmly to Emaj. That C# remains just a rogue note  that flavours up the chord a bit. It's his choice of bass note that forces us to recognize Emaj as the  home key. But in the verses, Paul makes as if  C#m is the home key, by playing a low C# instead,  and emphasises the fact by returning to it 3 times with the same  repeated chord change - F#m-C#m, F#m-C#m, F#m-C#m. He only comes back home at the  end of each verse - "and I love her" - with  a return to Emaj (or E6, depending on what  notes George is playing).

But if you start playing E6 all the way through,  you are losing the harmonic alternation  that Paul created there. The question is, are you playing E6? Quite possibly the reason it sounds okay to you is that you're not hitting the bass E on the sixth string, in which case it will sound like C#m (more or less).
Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: Bobber on March 07, 2009, 09:29:41 AM
That makes sense!  :)
Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: Xose on March 07, 2009, 11:18:45 AM
And..., what about George's vibrato in the solo??

BTW: have a look at George's plucked strings in the video (=I mean: those images when the solo is being heard...) I could be wrong but it seems that he is not plucking the right strings..., is he??

Xose
Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: Pilzkopf on March 07, 2009, 03:13:05 PM
We can't see what his left hand is doing, but I couldn't play it using the strings he's plucking, in the order he's plucking them. I can only assume he re-tuned the guitar in some unorthodox way to get the optimum arrangement of tone and fingering.
Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: alexis on March 07, 2009, 04:30:14 PM
Quote from: 1943
Alexis - the problem with playing solo guitar, especially  using a strumming technique, is that  subtleties of harmony can get lost. It's  often a matter of chance whether you hit  the bass E string or not. But which note is  the lowest note does make a difference.

For example, Am is made up of A, E and C.  The normal configuration on the guitar is  with the bass E not sounded (hopefully),  leaving the A string to provide the strong  tonic note at the bottom of the pile. But  if you plant your fifth finger down on C as  the bass note, the effect is very nearly to  destroy it as a minor chord altogether. Now  it sounds more like C6.  (To hear the  difference it's better to pluck with your  fingers, limiting the sound to the middle  four strings.)

So it's the bass note that really determines what the chord actually is. But rhythm guitarists in a band don't need to  bother too much about the configuration of  a particular chord in terms of which note  to put on which string, because the  all-important bass note is handled by the  bass guitar. It doesn't matter which of  those notes John is playing on the low  string (if he even hits it), because  whatever it is, it's overridden by Paul's  bass.

The point about E6 is that it's basically  Emaj with an alien C# that seems to want to  turn the chord into C#m. And if Paul played C# at that point, that's what would happen. But in the instrumental intro his bass E prevents that, locking the harmony firmly to Emaj. That C# remains just a rogue note  that flavours up the chord a bit. It's his choice of bass note that forces us to recognize Emaj as the  home key. But in the verses, Paul makes as if  C#m is the home key, by playing a low C# instead,  and emphasises the fact by returning to it 3 times with the same  repeated chord change - F#m-C#m, F#m-C#m, F#m-C#m. He only comes back home at the  end of each verse - "and I love her" - with  a return to Emaj (or E6, depending on what  notes George is playing).

But if you start playing E6 all the way through,  you are losing the harmonic alternation  that Paul created there. The question is, are you playing E6? Quite possibly the reason it sounds okay to you is that you're not hitting the bass E on the sixth string, in which case it will sound like C#m (more or less).

Nice post, pilz!

I actually get the best of both worlds - I'm a keyboard player, so I can choose whether I want to play the E with my left hand or C#!

I think Paul's choice of saving the E6 chord for the rare "back home" (well, put, pilz!), and not overusing it is a testament to his fantastic innate musical taste. It would have been so easy to play the E6 throughout, but then, IMHO, it would have been like putting Lemon Pepper on everything one eats, not just a few select dishes. On one of the Anthology albums that E6 is somehow really emphasized (maybe John and George are playing the C# too?), that's what got me thinkiing about all this really.

I think Paul is just a complete f*n musical genius. I shudder to think what the world would have lost if George Martin hadn't been flown in to set him off on the right track.

Thanks!
Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: alexis on March 07, 2009, 04:31:51 PM
Quote from: 1785
And..., what about George's vibrato in the solo??

BTW: have a look at George's plucked strings in the video (=I mean: those images when the solo is being heard...) I could be wrong but it seems that he is not plucking the right strings..., is he??

Xose

Link to video please?

By the way Xose and pilz - do guitarists often change the tuning? In the garage bands I've played in they never do, but then again, we've never been too good. Is it mainly a studio thing (too hard to manage on stage)?

Thanks!
Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: Xose on March 07, 2009, 04:59:28 PM
Quote from: 1943
We can't see what his left hand is doing, but I couldn't play it using the strings he's plucking, in the order he's plucking them. I can only assume he re-tuned the guitar in some unorthodox way to get the optimum arrangement of tone and fingering.


That's what I meant. Looking at the strings he is picking, he had to re-tune the guitar in a non-conventonal wa, otherwise he couldn't use those strings to play the notes heard at the solo...

BTW: how would you re-tune your guitar to play the solo in the way George plays it?? Lowering the 4th. string a half step maybe???

I don't know if I am clear enough as English is not my native tongue...

Quote from: 568
...Link to video please?...


Here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8fNDfdjXd8

I'm referring to minutes 1'48-1'56. Please, do notice the sequence of strings he is plucking. Not all of them do correspond exactly to the notes heard -and indeed fingered- with the left hand...

Best!! ;)

Xose
Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: Pilzkopf on March 07, 2009, 05:43:14 PM

Quote from: 568

I think Paul's choice of saving the E6 chord for the rare "back home" (well, put, pilz!), and not overusing it is a testament to his fantastic innate musical taste. It would have been so easy to play the E6 throughout, but then, IMHO, it would have been like putting Lemon Pepper on everything one eats, not just a few select dishes.

That's well put. What raises the Beatles above all other bands is their almost casual display of originality. They throw things away, just tossing something astonishing over their shoulder as if it was routine and unremarkable. Other bands find something interesting, and then they make a fetish of it. It keeps popping up in all kinds of places. But the Beatles never repeated themselves. They'd do something once, an exotic chord, an unexpected key change, and they'd never do it again. Next time they'll astonish you with something else. It's the reason there's no such thing as a typical Beatles song. Every one comes out of left field.

Xose - I can't guess what George did to the tuning. You can change the relative tuning of two strings either by raising one or lowering the other. I can't tell from the sound of this (Spanish) guitar which it was he did. I doubt that it's a common practice, except in the studio. It would be okay to do it live at a gig, provided you didn't have to re-tune it afterwards. That is, if you use a particular guitar for a particular song, and then don't use it again. I'm sure it happens now and again. But I'd guess the most common one is to de-tune the sixth to get e.g, a low D instead of an E.

Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: alexis on March 07, 2009, 10:32:59 PM
Quote from: 1943

That's well put. What raises the Beatles above all other bands is their almost casual display of originality. They throw things away, just tossing something astonishing over their shoulder as if it was routine and unremarkable. Other bands find something interesting, and then they make a fetish of it. It keeps popping up in all kinds of places. But the Beatles never repeated themselves. They'd do something once, an exotic chord, an unexpected key change, and they'd never do it again. Next time they'll astonish you with something else. It's the reason there's no such thing as a typical Beatles song. Every one comes out of left field.

Xose - I can't guess what George did to the tuning. You can change the relative tuning of two strings either by raising one or lowering the other. I can't tell from the sound of this (Spanish) guitar which it was he did. I doubt that it's a common practice, except in the studio. It would be okay to do it live at a gig, provided you didn't have to re-tune it afterwards. That is, if you use a particular guitar for a particular song, and then don't use it again. I'm sure it happens now and again. But I'd guess the most common one is to de-tune the sixth to get e.g, a low D instead of an E.


Hello Pilz -

"... and make a fetish out of it...". So very true, I guess that 's why almost every band has a "sound" associated with it, very few are like the Beatles where the range of sonic signatures ranges from I'm Down to Yesterday (recorded the same day!), Julia to Why Don't We do it in the Road. For example: "Yardbirds" - yup, typical sound. Deep Purple? ... ditto, etc. (Stones too, of course!).

Acknowledging that there were some "one-time" gems that the Beatles threw out never to use again (like that C augmented in the "Oooh" backgrounds in All My Loving - where'd that come from, some alien came down and told them to sing it or what?...), and at the risk of sounding pedantic, (  ;) :) ), I might amend that to say once or a few times. What I'm thinking of here is the use of an idea for a few songs, THEN it's discarded. For example:
- The key change to the minor 5th for the middle eight - From Me to You ... I Want to Hold Your Hand.
- Flipping back and forth from the major key to it's minor key  - ... "Things We Said Today" ... "I'll be Back", maybe some others (last chord on "And I Love Her"?).
- Using the minor 4th to get back to the tonic chord, instead of the 5th. John did this a lot around the time of AHDN, though I can't think of any examples off the top of my head  :B
- The identical chords used in "Sexy Sadie" and "Here, There, and Everywhere": G-Am-Bm-C ... John "borrowing" from Paul!

And then, just like you say, these little stylistics gems are discarded, never to be seen again!

It would be fun to make a list of true "1 and done" throwaways like you describe ... I'll start it, can we add to it?

Thanks!

One and Done Musical "Tricks" by the Beatles
1. Dropping from the vi chord to a Flat VI augmented chord (like above - "All My Loving", the bridge: C#m - Caugmented - E.
2. ?

I hope this stuff doesn't sound like I'm too full of BS ... I really love talking about the Beatles chords, sometimes I get carried away ... sorry!

Thanks!

Edit - http://www.dmbeatles.com/forums/m-1236475625/
Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: Pilzkopf on March 08, 2009, 11:34:43 AM
2. I'll Follow the Sun - the melody starts on the dominant G7 and reaches the tonic C via F7. Then it passes straight through to D7.  I've never seen a progression like that before or since. A sub-dominant 7th is not a chord that immediately springs to mind as a way of reaching the tonic.
Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: Xose on March 08, 2009, 01:23:43 PM
Quote from: 1943
...Xose - I can't guess what George did to the tuning. You can change the relative tuning of two strings either by raising one or lowering the other. I can't tell from the sound of this (Spanish) guitar which it was he did. I doubt that it's a common practice, except in the studio. It would be okay to do it live at a gig, provided you didn't have to re-tune it afterwards. That is, if you use a particular guitar for a particular song, and then don't use it again. I'm sure it happens now and again. But I'd guess the most common one is to de-tune the sixth to get e.g, a low D instead of an E....

Thanks for your reply!! ;)

I know what are you talking about. But I'm interested SOLELY in that re-tuned Spanish guitar on AILH. What about lowering the 4th. string?? Does he play D on it??

Best!! ;)

Xose
Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: alexis on March 08, 2009, 04:08:17 PM
Quote from: 1943
2. I'll Follow the Sun - the melody starts on the dominant G7 and reaches the tonic C via F7. Then it passes straight through to D7.  I've never seen a progression like that before or since. A sub-dominant 7th is not a chord that immediately springs to mind as a way of reaching the tonic.

Great one, Pilz. I know now why I have such a hard time remembering these chords, on such a "simple" song - I guess they don't fit a pattern that's been done a zillion times. I always kind of liked how his melody went up in the verse ("You'll know") while the chord went down (G7 -> F7).

Maybe these chords were written this way because it's such an early song he really had no idea about "conventional" chording. I wonder if the middle eight was written a lot later, it seems more in line with typical pop chording...
Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: Xose on March 08, 2009, 09:09:15 PM
Quote from: 568
...Maybe these chords were written this way because it's such an early song he really had no idea about "conventional" chording. I wonder if the middle eight was written a lot later, it seems more in line with typical pop chording...

Yes it was. Middle eight was written at the studio on FEB the 27th....

Xose

Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: fendertele on March 08, 2009, 10:14:19 PM
E6 only for the intro

then C#m for verse
Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: Pilzkopf on March 08, 2009, 11:07:02 PM
Quote from: 568

 I wonder if the middle eight was written a lot later, it seems more in line with typical pop chording...


It was written later, apparently. I say "apparently" because there is an early version on YouTube by the Quarrymen, recorded in 1960 in Paul's front room in Liverpool, which has a different middle eight. I don't know if he's given it the seal of authenticity, but I have to say it's pretty awful. It doesn't even sound much like him. If it is, then he must have become a much more polished singer in the following two years, and the Quarrymen's playing must have improved by the same amount. But judge for yourself.

zKrMXhl7dkQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKrMXhl7dkQ)

Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: alexis on March 09, 2009, 01:12:49 AM
Quote from: 1943

It was written later, apparently. I say "apparently" because there is an early version on YouTube by the Quarrymen, recorded in 1960 in Paul's front room in Liverpool, which has a different middle eight. I don't know if he's given it the seal of authenticity, but I have to say it's pretty awful. It doesn't even sound much like him. If it is, then he must have become a much more polished singer in the following two years, and the Quarrymen's playing must have improved by the same amount. But judge for yourself.

zKrMXhl7dkQ ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKrMXhl7dkQ[/url])



Wow, that was incredible, thank you Pilz!

There's really so much to say about that recording:

1) They mixed up so many styles in one tune there (Rockabilly lead, pop guitar lick between verses, and of course the wistful song itself), "let's try this, and then let's try that, and maybe this will work well too" ... this was like the sonic equivalent of watching a top pedigree Golden Retreiver puppy,  all excited trying to run in 4 different directions at once - you know he's going to turn out a champ, but it's kind of funny watching him as he grows into that!

2) The middle eight - different, but you know, I think it has a lot of similarities ... starts on the IV anyway, can't tell if it goes to the iv (like the recorded version) or just to the V.

3) They were already comfortable with the "3 and out" song ending they used so much later on (like 8 Days a Week, and a zillion others).

4) Sounds like they recorded it about a 3rd or 4th below the final version, basically in the "John" vocal zone. Was Paul singing high stuff by then? (I kind of have it in the back of my head that he did Little Richard from basically the beginning ...?).

Thanks again for this, Pilz, I hadn't heard it before somehow. Great!
Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: Pilzkopf on March 09, 2009, 11:26:47 AM
3. Magical Mystery Tour

Roll uuuuuuup......Roll up for the mystery tour...
E.....................G........................A

While the chord is still E, the vocals are bang on harmonically, with John (I think it's him) holding E. But when the G chord arrives he doesn't follow it. He stays put on E. Meantime John/George goes from Ab to A. But both E and A belong to the chord of Amaj, which hasn't arrived yet, and neither note belongs to G. It's a double discord, yet it's perfect. When Amaj finally arrives, it's as if it's been pulled into position by the vocals.
Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: alexis on March 09, 2009, 03:16:24 PM
Quote from: 1943
3. Magical Mystery Tour

Roll uuuuuuup......Roll up for the mystery tour...
E.....................G........................A

While the chord is still E, the vocals are bang on harmonically, with John (I think it's him) holding E. But when the G chord arrives he doesn't follow it. He stays put on E. Meantime John/George goes from Ab to A. But both E and A belong to the chord of Amaj, which hasn't arrived yet, and neither note belongs to G. It's a double discord, yet it's perfect. When Amaj finally arrives, it's as if it's been pulled into position by the vocals.

OK, great, thanks pilz, I'll listen when I get home (no youtube at work).

BTW - do they do this sort of thing in their 3 part harmony of "This Boy"? I've seen sheet music from a normally reliable transcriptionist or whatever they're called ("The Complete Beatles"), where it looks like they vocally anticipate or delay the notes from another chord, rather than the one that the guitars are playing. It was too hard for me to figure out the last time I looked, and frankly I didn't hear much of that listening to the recording. Do you have any thoughts or observations on that one?

Thanks!
Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: Pilzkopf on March 09, 2009, 06:30:04 PM
I listened to This Boy again, not having heard it for a while. No, I didn't hear any of that. Of course there were a lot of mild discords, in the sense of there being maj 7ths in there, but nothing like the raucous discord of MMT. It struck me, though, that TB is the closest they got to reproducing the poppier American sounds of the late 50s. It reminds me a bit of Juliet by the Four Pennies (I know they were a British band, but they were borrowing that style too). It was the Beatles unbuttoned, waxing old-fashioned and sentimental.

Going back to MMT, I love the way they use A major as the pivot chord between the alternating sections. While still in E, it's the subdominant, but it's also the dominant of a different key, D. No matter how many times I've heard it, it always comes as a shock when they bounce off A major and hit that D chord, going right into not just a new key, but a new rhythm. It's logical but still hair-raising. Traaaang! ".....The magical mystery tour is coming to take you away".
Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: An Apple Beatle on March 19, 2009, 05:42:32 PM
Hey Pilzkopf...Nice having you around. I am useless at recognising the theory of chord relativity. I purely rely on my ear. Nice to read your accounts. :)
Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: Pilzkopf on March 20, 2009, 07:14:34 PM
^Well, I rely on my ear mostly, AppleBeatle. I have read a couple of books on harmony and counterpoint, etc, but quite a long time ago now. I rarely look at published guitar tabs or chords, because they're quite often wrong, especially on the internet. Training your ear is the best way, IMO. And Beatles is the best song pool to test yourself against. (And after them, Kate Bush.)
Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: An Apple Beatle on March 20, 2009, 08:58:11 PM
I got a Beatle duo gig coming up tomorrow night as it goes and just been learning some harmonies for Here Comes the Sun, Free As A Bird and Dear Prudence....PLenty to choose from but normally it's you take one line, I'll pick another.  They still deceive you off using the obvious, the subtle cheeky blighters. Fun, Fun, Fun, here we come. heheheh It's a grand pool indeed.  :)
Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: Pilzkopf on March 20, 2009, 10:33:04 PM
Well, blag your way through the bits you're not sure of by playing softer and singing louder. :K) Let us know how it goes.
Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: An Apple Beatle on March 22, 2009, 12:58:13 PM
It was good but a bit intimate (CAfe/restaurant - fully booked) so I couldnay crank up the PA. Still was fun though and got to play a lot more of the subdued numbers. After all our practise we forgot to do Here Comes The Sun....Scandalous. heheh

If they could alter the lighting a bit and make a better performers area it could be a nice regular Beatle gig. Lots of memorobilia to look at as you play which is refreshing.
Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: alexis on March 22, 2009, 06:29:19 PM
Hey Apple - Glad the gig went well! Next time, give the sedate diners a little pick me up - crank it to "11" and give them a little Helter Skelter or Revolution!

Something you said in a previous post caught my ear. You were talking about the Beatles harmonies, and you said "... They still deceive you off using the obvious, the subtle cheeky blighters...". Were saying something like, "Just when you think you've got them figured out they throw in a little unexpected twist ..."?

If so, which examples did you have in mind?

Thanks, Apple, I'm just a nut when it comes to the Beatles chords and harmonies, etc. (like it wasn't obvious, duh)!
Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: An Apple Beatle on March 25, 2009, 12:24:38 PM
Well...Baby's In Black springs straight to mind.  The words ' see's the mistake' that Macca sings is all the same note where naturally you would just follow the notes down.

I shall add to this as the lighbulb hits me....Gotta get back on with things for now. :)
Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: alexis on May 16, 2009, 02:50:21 AM
Quote from: 1943
Quote from: 568

OK, great, thanks pilz, I'll listen when I get home (no youtube at work).

BTW - do they do this sort of thing in their 3 part harmony of "This Boy"? I've seen sheet music from a normally reliable transcriptionist or whatever they're called ("The Complete Beatles"), where it looks like they vocally anticipate or delay the notes from another chord, rather than the one that the guitars are playing. It was too hard for me to figure out the last time I looked, and frankly I didn't hear much of that listening to the recording. Do you have any thoughts or observations on that one?

Thanks!
I listened to This Boy again, not having heard it for a while. No, I didn't hear any of that. Of course there were a lot of mild discords, in the sense of there being maj 7ths in there, but nothing like the raucous discord of MMT. It struck me, though, that TB is the closest they got to reproducing the poppier American sounds of the late 50s. It reminds me a bit of Juliet by the Four Pennies (I know they were a British band, but they were borrowing that style too). It was the Beatles unbuttoned, waxing old-fashioned and sentimental...


Hey Pilz, you still around  :)

I've been looking at this song closely lately, working on these harmonies hoping to get my band to sing this, and I think I can explain a little better what I meant about their voice chords not matching up with the instrument chords. It's really just in one spot, but it makes it hard to fake the song unless you really know what's going on:

"This boy, woudn't MIND the pain". The word  "MIND" is sung over an A(7) chord, but the three voices are singing a ... G chord  (John G/George B/Paul D)! I suppose one could call this an A11, but I don't know if that is the best way to describe it. You're right it's not as egregious a departure from the staid musical conventions of the more formally trained as some of their other songs (MMT!), but it still blows me away that these boys, barely out of their teens, can do that!
Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: An Apple Beatle on May 17, 2009, 01:29:07 PM
They are very good at keeping it varied and again I put this down to Hamburg days. It's also about them bends in the PAYEEAIN, SAAAAAYEEAME and the glorious ahhh's in the chorus. Hitting the MIND correct, launches right into it superbly. Lush chordal effect and always enjoy the rare moments of getting 3 of us to do it. Normally I perform it in the duo but it is quite rare nowadays for more of the upbeat numbers.
Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: An Apple Beatle on May 17, 2009, 01:36:57 PM
Another great decieving harmony then....


It's Getting Better All the Time. I would perform this song a lot more if the whole band could get this nailed. The 2 main lines in the I USED TO BE CRUEL section are amongst the best of Beatle harmony and still gets me everytime. Both lines are equally a joy...Would be happy singing either. Im waiting for the band to nail the 'I Can't Complain' bits as it's a mouthful trying to sing main and backing line. lol
One other line is getting a good  Better, better, beeeeeeter going...until then we do a cracking verse. heheh

Eleanor Rigby is another that people often get wrong and far more subtle than the ears first believe.

That's enough for today. heheh
Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: alexis on May 17, 2009, 08:11:52 PM
Love reading your posts, Apple. You clearly know what you speak about - keep it coming please!

I've toyed with the Eleanor Rigby harmony a bit (you mean the chorus, right?), but just in the car and such, I have noticed that I am never quite satisfied. You've peaked my interest - that may be my next project!
Title: Re: And I Love Her - 2nd chord
Post by: Pilzkopf on September 18, 2009, 01:24:14 AM
I listened to This Boy again, not having heard it for a while. No, I didn't hear any of that. Of course there were a lot of mild discords, in the sense of there being maj 7ths in there, but nothing like the raucous discord of MMT. It struck me, though, that TB is the closest they got to reproducing the poppier American sounds of the late 50s. It reminds me a bit of Juliet by the Four Pennies (I know they were a British band, but they were borrowing that style too). It was the Beatles unbuttoned, waxing old-fashioned and sentimental...



Hey Pilz, you still around  :)

I've been looking at this song closely lately, working on these harmonies hoping to get my band to sing this, and I think I can explain a little better what I meant about their voice chords not matching up with the instrument chords. It's really just in one spot, but it makes it hard to fake the song unless you really know what's going on:

"This boy, woudn't MIND the pain". The word  "MIND" is sung over an A(7) chord, but the three voices are singing a ... G chord  (John G/George B/Paul D)! I suppose one could call this an A11, but I don't know if that is the best way to describe it. You're right it's not as egregious a departure from the staid musical conventions of the more formally trained as some of their other songs (MMT!), but it still blows me away that these boys, barely out of their teens, can do that!

Sorry to reply so late. I took a sabbatical from all forums for a while. But I is back.

First, what key are you playing in? Projecting back from your A7, it sounds like D, but the reason I ask is that I went to look at tabs on the internet, and they're even worse than I remember. I went through half a dozen faulty versions, where it was obvious that each had blindly copied the mistakes of the others. And a couple were transposed into other keys. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but just to check - is it D?