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Solo forums => John Lennon => Topic started by: Penny Lane on March 20, 2009, 12:48:49 AM

Title: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: Penny Lane on March 20, 2009, 12:48:49 AM
I hope a thread like this hasn't been posted before (I checked back a couple of pages and didn't see anything).

Sometimes (a lot of times?) I get the strong feeling that some Lennon fans really hate Paul.  Like, in comparison to John, Paul just can't match up in terms of his years as a Beatle, his music, his personality, his charitable work, etc.  To some John people, Paul was a pretty singing head while John was the edgy "core" of the Beatles.  No matter what, Paul will always be inferior to them.

My point in starting this thread is NOT to pit John against Paul, as this has been done way too many times and is just tiresome and immature.  I just want to ask the Lennon fans here:  Do you dislike Paul?  Do you think he is inferior to John?  And WHY?  I'd like to know.  Thanks. :o
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: Penny Lane on March 20, 2009, 01:04:12 AM
All right...  And here are my personal thoughts on the issue...

I've done a lot of Beatle reading/research and I feel that John and Paul were 50/50 during their Beatle years.  During some periods, one personality may have dominated the group more than the other (and sometimes too much...*cough* Paul), but overall, they were equally great.  It really stuns me to hear some people say that "Lennon was the Beatles", like he was the be-all and end-all of the group.  Like, honestly?  No!  IMO, if you're a Beatles fan and you say that, it comes off sounding woefully ignorant.  Sorry if I sound harsh, but this is the kind of mentality that I just cannot understand.
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: JimmyMcCullochFan on March 20, 2009, 03:42:14 AM
Maybe they are in the "Paul broke up the Beatles. John can't do no wrong crowd"?
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: HeyJude18 on March 20, 2009, 04:51:26 AM
Ok, so I'm a John fan but I have no sort of dislike for Paul.  I found that in his later songs with the Beatles (Abbey Road/Let It Be) that they were somewhat over the top or just plain silly.  John's songs on the other hand seemed to have a little more substance to them.  Then again, I like Paul's earlier stuff with the Beatles and then 1970-on.  That's just my opinion though.
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: JimmyMcCullochFan on March 20, 2009, 04:57:05 AM
Quote from: 1447
Ok, so I'm a John fan but I have no sort of dislike for Paul.  I found that in his later songs with the Beatles (Abbey Road/Let It Be) that they were somewhat over the top or just plain silly.  John's songs on the other hand seemed to have a little more substance to them.  Then again, I like Paul's earlier stuff with the Beatles and then 1970-on.  That's just my opinion though.

What's your opinion on Two of Us, Let It Be, Golden Slumbers and You Never Give Me Your Money?
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: Penny Lane on March 20, 2009, 08:44:10 AM
Quote from: 1447
I found that in his later songs with the Beatles (Abbey Road/Let It Be) that they were somewhat over the top or just plain silly.

I hope you won't fault Paul with the production for "The Long and Winding Road" (the originally released version)...that always sounded bad to me but we should blame Phil Spector.   :P

I do respect your opinion, though, but IMO, Paul did some great work during the late Beatles period.
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: DaveRam on March 20, 2009, 09:19:59 AM
It's easy to dislike someone who's successful , good looking , is a good singer and  as a gift for melody and is filthy  rich to boot .
Makes me want to vomit  (wink1)
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: HeyJude18 on March 20, 2009, 01:23:10 PM
JMF - I think they're good but Let It Be has turned into too much of a sort of anthem, the catch all song for everything.

Penny - Oh I do blame Phil Spector...  he ruined what was supposed to be just a nice simple little song (judging by Let It Be... Naked)
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: Kevin on March 20, 2009, 01:59:29 PM
Quote from: 1447
JMF - I think they're good but Let It Be has turned into too much of a sort of anthem, the catch all song for everything.


A bit like Imagine?
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: Kevin on March 20, 2009, 03:22:11 PM
Quote from: 1447
I found that in his later songs with the Beatles (Abbey Road/Let It Be) that they were somewhat over the top or just plain silly.  John's songs on the other hand seemed to have a little more substance to them.  

I agree that Paul should be shot for Maxwell's Silver Hammer, which in my humble opinion is worsted only on Abbey Road by Octupus's Garden. But I think Paul more than redeemes himself with his part in the inception and crafting of the side two medley. Generally regarded as one of the Beatle's classic moments.  And to be honest I don't find either Polythene Pam or Mean Mr Mustard overly substantial (whatever that means.)
And let's face it, for Let It Be the best (or more importantly only) song John can stump up with is Dig A Pony? Paul carries that album, and although I do find the song Let It Be a tad over-wrought the rest of his contributions are fine.
 


 
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: on March 20, 2009, 09:45:02 PM
I'm a John fan, and I really like Paul's work during The Beatles, but I really don't like his solo work while i love John's solo work (just a matter of taste) . But whilst The Beatles, I guess their input was 50/50 yeah.
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: Mrs Lennon on March 20, 2009, 09:56:01 PM
Quote from: 1620
Do you dislike Paul?
              No.

Quote from: 1620
Do you think he is inferior to John?
              Not musical talent-wise.
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: Penny Lane on March 21, 2009, 01:12:51 AM
Quote from: 185
And let's face it, for Let It Be the best (or more importantly only) song John can stump up with is Dig A Pony? Paul carries that album, and although I do find the song Let It Be a tad over-wrought the rest of his contributions are fine.

Wait a minute...  What about "Across the Universe" on that album?  One of John's finest moments?
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: colleengirl95 on March 21, 2009, 02:05:39 AM
Well for me as a John Lennon fan.... i don't dislike Paul at all. I mean when The Beatles were still together.... John and Paul really showed their musical talent so it was just equal .... for me that is like you've said 50/50. The two of them contributed a lot to the success of the band so it's equal .
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: Jane on March 21, 2009, 03:52:32 PM
I love Paul, but I think I loved him more before I joined this forum. It was 50-50 between John and Paul. However, the aggressiveness of Paul`s fans and their aim to show John in the worst possible light here made me feel the unfairness of these strivings and made me think about John more, which helped me to get closer to him and to start loving him more. I am sure that today it`s vice versa, (if we agree that what Penny Lane said is true): John`s fans keep a low profile, while Paul`s come out everywhere trying to hurt with their comments. I can interprete it only in terms of jealousy. If it isn`t why don`t you let people love John?
Besides Rock is more dear to my heart than Pop, and John is much more Rock.
One idea - John perfectly fits the image of a rock star, while Paul doesn`t. He fits the image of a bourgeois pop star. He is more like Tom Jones, Cliff Richard, Leo Sayer, which is very good in itself, but farther from rock than Eric Clapton, Mick Jagger, John Lennon and Chris Martin are. Paul is very reasonable, even-tempered, well-balanced, a hands-on man, who always has a smile reserved for you, while the above heroes seem more natural, more open and even have a streak of "craziness" in them. I am not saying that one type is bad and the other is good, it`s all a matter of taste.
I am very sorry for these ideas, but I wanted to be honest with you. Honesty is the best policy.
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: pc31 on March 21, 2009, 04:23:47 PM
it is not that we hate him...we hate the fact paul fans go on and on about paul.... ;D
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: Pilzkopf on March 21, 2009, 04:40:55 PM
I have to say that I don't care overmuch for either of them personality-wise. John could be a nasty character in his private relations, in contrast to his grand public statements about how much better the world would be if only it had more people like him in it, etc, etc. And Paul the control-freak had an ego at least as big. And his "political" statements were naive beyond enduring. In fact all the Beatles were excruciating when they took on the preaching role. Think Bono - only worse. There ought to be a law setting limits on how rich you can be before you have to shut up about the world's problems. But when it comes to "Paul haters" and "John haters", I don't think the rivalry has much respect for facts. The mud-slinging is the same kind you get  between rival football teams. Insult for the sake of insult. Pointless.
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: Penny Lane on March 21, 2009, 08:14:24 PM
Quote from: 1393
However, the aggressiveness of Paul`s fans and their aim to show John in the worst possible light here made me feel the unfairness of these strivings and made me think about John more, which helped me to get closer to him and to start loving him more. I am sure that today it`s vice versa, (if we agree that what Penny Lane said is true): John`s fans keep a low profile, while Paul`s come out everywhere trying to hurt with their comments. I can interprete it only in terms of jealousy. If it isn`t why don`t you let people love John?

I don't have a problem with John fans loving John.  I hope you don't think I'm trying to get people to like John less.  It's just that I think some people underrate the contributions made to the Beatles by Paul (and George and Ringo) in comparison to John, and I wanted to get more insight into that.
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: Dr Robert on March 21, 2009, 08:53:47 PM
I'll bite, I guess.

If you look at the early songs that sort of defined the Beatles and that most fans would associate with Beatle popularity, they're overwhelmingly Lennon cuts (Please Please Me, Help!, Ticket to Ride, I Want to Hold Your Hand, Twist and Shout, A Hard Day's Night, I Feel Fine) with only a few exceptions. Paul was always a great songwriter, but it wasn't until Sgt. Pepper, I feel, that Paul emerged as a songwriting talent near or equal to the level of Lennon. Then, after Brian Epstein died, it all started to unravel. Paul felt it was his duty to "rally the troops" and made himself the unofficial Beatles leader. Lennon got tired of it, as did Harrison. As Lennon said in an interview, "We all got fed up with being side-men for Paul." Paul became more and more picky with his music and less open for input from his bandmates. If you look at Paul during the Let It Be sessions, he looks like an arrogant ass, and it all sort of comes to a climax with his arguing with George Harrison during the infamous scene about the guitar part of "I've Got A Feeling."

(If you want my opinion, I've Got A Feeling is George Harrison at his finest. Listen to the song, every second of it, focusing only on George's guitar. I truly believe it is one of the finest examples of great guitar work on any song. Any time I hear it, I want to give Paul the middle finger and say, "Stick it up your arse, Paul. George's work here is genius.")

Paul wanted so desperately to be the true leader of the Beatles. Perhaps better put, he wanted to be the true leader of ANY band. After Paul left the Beatles, he got his wish. He started a band where he was the headliner and the rest of the band members were only sidemen.

(As an aside, besides diehard McCartney fans, how many people can name any member of Wings besides Paul? I know I can't. But, funny enough, when Wings plays in concerts, the songs they play are overwhelmingly Beatles songs. That's interesting when you think that Paul was with the Beatles for only about 10 years and has been with Wings for nearly 40.)

So the beef we have with Paul, in a nutshell, is that once he became a great songwriter he tried to turn the rest of the Beatles into Wings. Though John is also guilty of this, I feel that he also stifled George to the point where it became unbearable for him to be a member of the band. His role in the Beatles was and always should have been a notch below John's, and once Paul tried to change that, the Beatles unraveled.

I should add that the above post is just my opinion, and I know there are glaring inaccuracies and biases in what I have just written. I just tried to sum up the "Anti-Paul group's" perception of McCartney as best as I could. If someone were to critique Lennon, they could write pages and pages about him and his relationship with Yoko and how detrimental it all was to the Beatles, and there would be little room for argument. It all depends on which band member you like more and whose side you tend to fall on. I am and always will be biased toward John and George.
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: Jane on March 21, 2009, 09:09:11 PM
Quote from: 1620

I don't have a problem with John fans loving John.  I hope you don't think I'm trying to get people to like John less.  It's just that I think some people underrate the contributions made to the Beatles by Paul (and George and Ringo) in comparison to John, and I wanted to get more insight into that.

No, Penny Lane, not you, you are not trying to do it. I have never thought that the other Beatles contributions were less. For me they are one unit, which would have never succeeded with one element missing. I think that John`s fans treat all the Beatles equally, they know that John is better (not because he was better actually, but because they love him more, since they are his fans) and follow his legacy. Why don`t Paul`s fans follow suit? Relax and stop their percentage calculations to prove that Paul is better. That causes a negative reaction. John`s fans never calculate which of them did what and which of them made more films. If there`s another film about Macca`s concert they wouldn`t say a word. Why not have 100, 1000, 10000 films about Paul. Or his love affairs. They do not criticise Paul.
But Paul`s fans seem to be very jealous of everything connected with John and criticise him all the way. Put him down. Why? Relax. You know that Paul is better, for the same reason that John`s fans know John is better. Nobody is better, George was as great as each of our heroes, and Ringo is not trailing behind, BTW.  
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: Mrs Lennon on March 21, 2009, 09:33:04 PM
I hate it when people say stuff like 'John = The Beatles' or 'Paul = The Beatles'
Dare I speak math:

   John + Paul + George + Ringo = The Beatles.

Quote from: 1620
I don't have a problem with John fans loving John.

*raises hand*  (wave1)
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: Jane on March 21, 2009, 09:33:09 PM
Dr Robert, thank you for your post very much. You have expressed here very true ideas IMO.
I think the band started to disband because of the inner coup staged by Paul. The band was founded by Lennon, he was its leader. But somebody started to oust the founding member. Things are not done that way, if you want to be a new leader form a new band. I should say that Lennon was extremely democratic, he never claimed leadership. And it was ok while nobody else claimed it either. Kind of all equal, at least, John and Paul equal. But when Paul with his ambitions tried to get the upper hand it all collapsed. The other guys were not such nincompoops, he thought they were, to tolerate this.
Nevertheless, I love Paul and right now I am into his Speed Of the Sound.
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: Mairi on March 22, 2009, 05:55:10 PM
Quote from: 1393

No, Penny Lane, not you, you are not trying to do it. I have never thought that the other Beatles contributions were less. For me they are one unit, which would have never succeeded with one element missing. I think that John`s fans treat all the Beatles equally, they know that John is better (not because he was better actually, but because they love him more, since they are his fans) and follow his legacy. Why don`t Paul`s fans follow suit? Relax and stop their percentage calculations to prove that Paul is better. That causes a negative reaction. John`s fans never calculate which of them did what and which of them made more films. If there`s another film about Macca`s concert they wouldn`t say a word. Why not have 100, 1000, 10000 films about Paul. Or his love affairs. They do not criticise Paul.
But Paul`s fans seem to be very jealous of everything connected with John and criticise him all the way. Put him down. Why? Relax. You know that Paul is better, for the same reason that John`s fans know John is better. Nobody is better, George was as great as each of our heroes, and Ringo is not trailing behind, BTW.  

Jane, I don't think this is a fair assessment. As a Beatles fan, I love them all, even though Paul is my favourite. I think perhaps the reason you seem to be seeing a lot of anti-John sentiment is because he has been canonized for so many years. It is only recently that we have begun to acknowledge John's faults after so many years of him being a dead sainted Beatle. Paul's faults, on the other hand, have always been out in the open, and rehashed many a time by Lennon fans and McCartney fans alike. Yes, he's a egomaniacal control freak, and all the rest. This has been said many times, and we know it's fact. There's no need, really, to state what is already common knowledge. But if anyone tried to bring up the fact that maybe John's political leanings were a little less than sincere, everyone blows up.

In my experience, the largest amount of Beatle-bashing comes from John fans to Paul fans. That's how it has always been. John = God and Paul = fluff. I can't believe you don't see this. I just think that DM's is the exceptio; we can see both sides of the story, for the most part.

Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: Jane on March 22, 2009, 07:27:03 PM
Mairi! I very much appreciate your explaining your point of view to me. Please, understand (and the others as well! Please!) that I come from a different from yours place. I have an absolutely different education and background and environment and surrounding. People here know about the Beatles, certainly, but they have never been so keen on them to the detail as you write they were in the USA. Lennon is no hero here, and Paul is just another singer. We have our own stars and canonized rock-stars like Victor Tzoi from Kino (I love him very much, but he died young  :'( )
It`s total news for me to hear that it has been all vice versa with Paul and John. In fact I myself never thought of them in such terms as the ones stated. I didn`t know John was canonized to god, I am not a fan who belongs to a Beatles` club paying contributions, delivering lectures and conducting debates, and meeting regularly, though there are such individuals. The most famous of them is Kolya Vasin from StPetersburg, who has John Lennon`s autograph. And I just adore them and listen to them regularly. That is why I was so surprised to hear people speak about John so lowly and backlash at me when I, naturally, started to defend John. I even couldn`t understand why nobody defended him as well. Believe me, it`s true. Mairi, I think I see what you mean.
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: The Swine on March 22, 2009, 08:35:02 PM
Quote from: 1393
I should say that Lennon was extremely democratic, he never claimed leadership.

sorry?
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: The Swine on March 22, 2009, 08:37:00 PM
Quote from: 1393
It`s total news for me to hear that it has been all vice versa with Paul and John. In fact I myself never thought of them in such terms as the ones stated. I didn`t know John was canonized to god, I am not a fan who belongs to a Beatles` club paying contributions, delivering lectures and conducting debates, and meeting regularly, though there are such individuals. The most famous of them is Kolya Vasin from StPetersburg, who has John Lennon`s autograph. And I just adore them and listen to them regularly. That is why I was so surprised to hear people speak about John so lowly and backlash at me when I, naturally, started to defend John. I even couldn`t understand why nobody defended him as well. Believe me, it`s true. Mairi, I think I see what you mean.
 

janie dear, it might be an idea to open your heart and mind a little bit before you start screaming. some people might have a point.
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: alexis on March 22, 2009, 08:37:14 PM
Quote from: 748

sorry?

OT - Just wondering, porker, who's the swinette in the avatar, and who was the walrus-head in the previous one?

It's getting hard to keep up, you've kind of been on a frenetic avatar roll since the dismembered swine heads. Inquiring (Enquiring?) minds want to know ...
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: The Swine on March 22, 2009, 08:39:44 PM
Quote from: 568

OT - Just wondering, porker, who's the swinette in the avatar, and who was the walrus-head in the previous one?

It's getting hard to keep up, you've kind of been on a frenetic avatar roll since the dismembered swine heads. Inquiring (Enquiring?) minds want to know ...

some people hate changes. i love them. i havent got a clue who those people are but it looks fine to me. i presume you agree.
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: alexis on March 22, 2009, 09:00:03 PM
Quote from: 748

some people hate changes. i love them. i havent got a clue who those people are but it looks fine to me. i presume you agree.

Much more pleasing to the eye without Walrus headgear to distract.

OT, I was just wondering if there is softwear to blow up avatars to full size ...  ;)

Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: MandyBuglet on March 23, 2009, 04:58:04 AM
Me, I like all four Beatles, and even though Ringo's my favorite, I don't think any one was better than the other three.

Quote from: 284
we hate the fact paul fans go on and on about paul.... ;D
But...isn't that what all fans do?
Go on and on about the person they love?

Or did you mean you hate how they go on and on about how he can do no wrong?
Because I'm with ya there :).

Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: BlueMeanie on March 23, 2009, 10:12:13 AM
I don't favour either of them. I've never been a huge solo fan in any case. The way I see it, and it's not just here, no-one is damming John, it's a backlash against those that seek to Deify him. The rediculous implication that Lennon is/was some kind of saintly figure going around preaching peace all his life, when the facts tell a different story. The more his fans seek to place him alongside the likes of Mother Theresa, the more Paul's fan base will react strongly against it. Nobody hates John, but some are tired of the constant elevation of him to some godlike status, while Paul is vilified by all and sundry.
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: Kevin on March 23, 2009, 01:43:03 PM
Quote from: 1620

Wait a minute...  What about "Across the Universe" on that album?  One of John's finest moments?

But written in 67 and recorded in 68. hardly a new piece of material for the album
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: The Swine on March 23, 2009, 01:45:12 PM
Quote from: 568

Much more pleasing to the eye without Walrus headgear to distract.

OT, I was just wondering if there is softwear to blow up avatars to full size ...  ;)



i always thought you were such a neat man. type caring father and all that.

(http://prow.web-log.nl/photos/uncategorized/vies.jpg)
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: Kevin on March 23, 2009, 01:51:09 PM
Quote from: 1393
He is more like Tom Jones, Cliff Richard, Leo Sayer, which is very good in itself, but farther from rock than Eric Clapton, Mick Jagger, John Lennon and Chris Martin are.

Bless you Jane. I was with you until the Chris Martin as rock god bit. He's married to a Hollywood actress and is a tofu eating vegetarian yoga-dude.
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: BlueMeanie on March 23, 2009, 05:51:03 PM
Leo Sayer???
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: alexis on March 23, 2009, 06:06:21 PM
Quote from: 748

i always thought you were such a neat man. type caring father and all that.

([url]http://prow.web-log.nl/photos/uncategorized/vies.jpg[/url])


Not so neat, but clean. Very clean.



Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: Jane on March 23, 2009, 09:54:49 PM
Quote from: 185

Bless you Jane. I was with you until the Chris Martin as rock god bit. He's married to a Hollywood actress and is a tofu eating vegetarian yoga-dude.

Kevin, in fact, I wanted to write Liam Gallagher (sure!) instead of Chris Martin so as to mention a young rocker but dared not do it as there are some posters who hate him, so I chose to be on the safe side. And Chris is decent, nice, not contraversial, married to an American beauty but having a rocker-image (I didn`t say he was a rock-star). I thought BM wouldn`t protest against the company. And I was right, he didn`t. But unfortunately he did protest against Leo Sayer. Many Paul`s songs are as sweet as Leo`s.

Would you accept Liam there?  
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: BlueMeanie on March 23, 2009, 10:41:20 PM
I thought BM wouldn`t protest against the company. And I was right, he didn`t. But unfortunately he did protest against Leo Sayer. [/quote]

What the fu*k's that got to do with anything? Oh sorry, did you think you were being attacked?
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: Jane on March 23, 2009, 10:50:19 PM
Absolutely not. The only thing I was wrong at was mentioning Leo. Now I see my mistake.
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: mr vandebilt on March 24, 2009, 11:48:58 AM
Quote from: 1393
Besides Rock is more dear to my heart than Pop, and John is much more Rock.
One idea - John perfectly fits the image of a rock star, while Paul doesn`t. He fits the image of a bourgeois pop star. He is more like Tom Jones, Cliff Richard, Leo Sayer, which is very good in itself, but farther from rock than Eric Clapton, Mick Jagger, John Lennon and Chris Martin are.

Hey i know Paul is quite a private person and can appear bland but comparing him to Tom Jones, Leo Sayer and Cliff is just plain offensive. He's had a FIFTY YEAR CAREER off course he's mellowed. While he hasnt been a memeber of the zeitgeist since the late 70s try to remember that for almost TWO DECADES he was very fashionalble. I think most people would become passe after that much exposure.

And no offence but Jagger and Lennon and most definatly Chris Martin are not rock stars. All three off them lived very pampered lives once they became sucsessful to pretend otherwise is silly. (Clapton though is rock and roll)

Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: Jane on March 24, 2009, 07:11:23 PM
I see your point. Yes, Paul first was in bands before he started on his own. You are right, but you shouldn`t take the distinction too literally. If you don`t like the comparison I am ready to withdraw it. Nevertheless, the guys mentioned, to my mind, have more rockish aura than he.
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: mr vandebilt on March 24, 2009, 10:16:24 PM
I dont understand what this rockish 'aura' is. I really don't see why people think Mick Jagger is some kind of rock star, all he's really done outside of music (which he is awesome at) is gyrate and sleep with a lot of women younger than him. In any walk of life when an older man sleeps with women half his age its embaressing but when Jagger does it its because he' s nrock and roll( although to be fair if in 30 years time i had the oppertunities he had i'd be a happy man).


How was Lennon rock and roll, he had servents, he baked bread,  he had to get permission from Yoko for everything, such as who he could cheat on her with. He was not rock and roll, an icon yes, a revoloutionary maybe.


Lennon was an amazing character i just dont understand why people feel the need to make him out to be what he wasnt
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: Jane on March 24, 2009, 10:35:17 PM
We have already argued about the revolutionary thing. For me it is very strange that you call him a revolutionary icon. He was no revolutionary at all. Just a person who expressed his views on politics, calling to put an end to the war in Vietnam. The anti-war movement was very strong then and he tried to contribute his voice to the movement. But it doesn`t mean he was a revolutionary. He didn`t try to overthrow the existing regimes. My country suffered from the revolutionaries in 1917. These were terrorists, theoretical or practical, and Lennon was no politician, cause one has to be at least a politician to be a revolutionary.
Why do you think that a rocker can`t live in a house and bake bread?
What I am speaking about is his music. It`s all the same for me how he lived and where he lived. They all had large houses, and what of that? I am happy for them, cause they deserved it, earned it with their own talents. For me these artists are rockers (C.Martin may be withdrawn).
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: Penny Lane on March 25, 2009, 12:17:55 AM
Quote from: 1699
How was Lennon rock and roll, he had servents, he baked bread,  he had to get permission from Yoko for everything, such as who he could cheat on her with. He was not rock and roll, an icon yes, a revoloutionary maybe.

Maybe a good question to ask would be how should one define a "rock star"?  I think you're saying that Lennon was not quite as rebellious as people make him seem.  Does a genuine rock star need to be edgy and rebellious?  

And IMO, I'm not sure it's fair to say that you can't be a rock star if you live a pampered life.  If you've made tons of money, of course you're going to spend it on living comfortably.  

McCartney seems very tame in comparison to other rock musicians, so would it be wrong to label him as a rock star?
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: Penny Lane on March 25, 2009, 12:24:35 AM
Quote from: 1689
But, funny enough, when Wings plays in concerts, the songs they play are overwhelmingly Beatles songs. That's interesting when you think that Paul was with the Beatles for only about 10 years and has been with Wings for nearly 40.

Wait, what?  Paul wasn't in Wings for 40 years.  They were together for much of the 1970's but they didn't last for more than 10 years.
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: JimmyMcCullochFan on March 25, 2009, 12:28:49 AM
Quote from: 1620

Maybe a good question to ask would be how should one define a "rock star"?  I think you're saying that Lennon was not quite as rebellious as people make him seem.  Does a genuine rock star need to be edgy and rebellious?  

And IMO, I'm not sure it's fair to say that you can't be a rock star if you live a pampered life.  If you've made tons of money, of course you're going to spend it on living comfortably.  

McCartney seems very tame in comparison to other rock musicians, so would it be wrong to label him as a rock star?


Here are some people who I think were rock stars.

(http://www.linternaute.com/musique/dossier/biopics-musicaux/photos/jim-morrison-dr.jpg)
(http://www.gotomycodes.com/userpics/myspacegraphics/Music-Artists-Backgrounds/Jimi-Hendrix.jpg)

(http://hiphappy.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/janis-joplin-rolling-stone-n-348569.jpg)

Some others include Clapton, Townshend, Daltrey, Moon, Page etc Also the guy in my avatar  ;)
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: JimmyMcCullochFan on March 25, 2009, 12:30:30 AM
Quote from: 483
I don't favour either of them. I've never been a huge solo fan in any case. The way I see it, and it's not just here, no-one is damming John, it's a backlash against those that seek to Deify him. The rediculous implication that Lennon is/was some kind of saintly figure going around preaching peace all his life, when the facts tell a different story. The more his fans seek to place him alongside the likes of Mother Theresa, the more Paul's fan base will react strongly against it. Nobody hates John, but some are tired of the constant elevation of him to some godlike status, while Paul is vilified by all and sundry.

Well put.
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: MandyBuglet on March 25, 2009, 07:06:36 AM

I've never thought Paul was "bland".
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: mr vandebilt on March 25, 2009, 07:51:06 AM
Quote from: 1927
I've never thought Paul was "bland".


I actually  don't think he is either, but the media perception of him does kind of paint him as a thumbs waving vegan mr 'niceguy'.

The reality is that he's one of the few celebrities in the world with the power and money who can pretty much dictate what information the press get about him. The fact is Macca is as much as an enigma as Lennon was, as no one can really claim to know the real Paul( if he's still alive that is ;) )

And for waht makes a rock and roll star its either that the person perfroms great rock songs which includes both John and Paul, or someone who leads a rock and roll lifestyle (such as Richards, Hendrix, Joplin, Morrison, Sir Cliff) which does not include any of the fab four.

The reason i do think Lennon is kind of a revoloutionary figure is that he did try to use his influence to change how people think. I don't think he actually sucseeded but he did at least have an attempt.

Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: DaveRam on March 25, 2009, 09:27:27 AM
I don't think The Beatles were a rock band more pop/rock and both John and Paul continued their solo career's very much in that vain and style ,they were always to sophisticated musically to be true rockers ?
Politically John had his finger on the pulse of the time, but unlike Bob Geldof he changed very little .
Conversely Paul's greener veggie  life style in the 70's seemed at odds with the time , it's funny how green politics are now setting the agenda and it's saving the planet that counts , not stopping never ending wars.
I think the Paul, John war will continue though , it's to good a sport to let drop .
Like BlueMeanie i'm not sure either of them are people worth tearing your hair out over , both have their faults .
Just love The Beatles stop the John, Paul war give peace a chance, only my love holds the other key blah blah
(rolling3)
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: Mairi on March 25, 2009, 12:36:41 PM
Quote from: 1620
And IMO, I'm not sure it's fair to say that you can't be a rock star if you live a pampered life.  If you've made tons of money, of course you're going to spend it on living comfortably.

I think what mr. vandebilt meant was that The Rolling Stones, prior to their success, enjoyed a rather cushy middle-class lifestyle. Of course, John was raised middle class too, only it wasn't so cushy as he had a rather messed up family life. Money isn't everything.
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: Jane on March 25, 2009, 09:23:05 PM
That all is very interesting. I also think that in that connection we should answer one question: Is a rock star supposed to live a comfortable life or not. If not then it is possible to say that ROCK IS MY RELIGION - a slogan or motto some people coin. Rock then dictates certain norms and standards. What do you think?
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: Wordno on March 26, 2009, 07:54:27 AM
I think this whole John fans vs Paul fans war will never see an end. John and Paul's rivalry extends even as far as to their fans. Fans will always come and defend their favorite Beatle and bash the other Beatle to try and prove superiority. We'll always hear the rubbish of "John was rock and Paul was pop" and all the other crap that people say. Honestly, I think Paul people dislike John people just as much as John people dislike Paul people. I think this whole crap of "John fans love him more and know better then to bash Paul" is complete and utter naive garbage. While I've seen more John fans bash Paul then visa versa the sad truth is that there probably won't ever be peace between the two crowds. I mean who wants to hear their idol being bashed for someone else?
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: Kevin on March 26, 2009, 02:12:18 PM
Quote from: 403
While I've seen more John fans bash Paul then visa versa the sad truth is that there probably won't ever be peace between the two crowds.

Yes, there is a schism running deep in Beatle World,  the hallucinatory babbling of the Lennonites  ("he was so  mighty") against the paranoid whinging of the Maccanists ("he's so misunderstood.") Just wait until one side or the other gets guns, then we'll have a real blood bath. And lets not forget the holier-than-thou Harrisonites, lurking about in the shadows. Maybe they should be up against the wall first.
All we need is a Martin Luther. Be warned he suffered from severe constipation (the Lord rewards his most dedicated followers in the strangest of ways) and I haven't had a proper sh*t in months.

Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: MandyBuglet on March 26, 2009, 06:15:58 PM
Quote
I mean who wants to hear their idol being bashed for someone else?

Exactly!

That's why I like them all (even though Ringo's my favorite)  :P ;D.

Quote from: 403
While I've seen more John fans bash Paul then visa versa the sad truth is that there probably won't ever be peace between the two crowds.

That's kinda sad, being that both John and Paul were (mostly) about peace.

Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: Jane on March 26, 2009, 09:17:20 PM
Maybe it`s time to switch to their sons. And I suspect the choices could be confusing: Paul fans might fall for Julian and John fans might find themselves with Dhani. Did we have a poll on The Beatles` wifes or girlfriends yet?
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: Mairi on March 26, 2009, 09:33:08 PM
Quote from: 185

Yes, there is a schism running deep in Beatle World,  the hallucinatory babbling of the Lennonites  ("he was so  mighty") against the paranoid whinging of the Maccanists ("he's so misunderstood.") Just wait until one side or the other gets guns, then we'll have a real blood bath. And lets not forget the holier-than-thou Harrisonites, lurking about in the shadows. Maybe they should be up against the wall first.
All we need is a Martin Luther. Be warned he suffered from severe constipation (the Lord rewards his most dedicated followers in the strangest of ways) and I haven't had a proper sh*t in months.

I... I think I love you.
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: Bobber on March 26, 2009, 09:57:28 PM
 :)
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: Penny Lane on March 26, 2009, 10:12:40 PM
Quote from: 185
Yes, there is a schism running deep in Beatle World,  the hallucinatory babbling of the Lennonites  ("he was so  mighty") against the paranoid whinging of the Maccanists ("he's so misunderstood.") Just wait until one side or the other gets guns, then we'll have a real blood bath. And lets not forget the holier-than-thou Harrisonites, lurking about in the shadows. Maybe they should be up against the wall first.

Hilarious.   ;D

But where are the Ringoites?   :P
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: Sondra on March 27, 2009, 01:34:23 AM
Quote from: 1927




That's kinda sad, being that both John and Paul were (mostly) about peace.


They were all about writing songs about peace. Practicing it was a bit beyond both of them. With each other anyway. Which in this case is rather fitting.

Anyway, it's ignorant to say any ONE Beatle made or broke the band. Anyone who says that either knows very little about the Beatles or is just stupid. Or a bit of both. Which is most likely the case.
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: Sondra on March 27, 2009, 01:43:35 AM
Quote from: 682

Here are some people who I think were rock stars.

([url]http://www.linternaute.com/musique/dossier/biopics-musicaux/photos/jim-morrison-dr.jpg[/url])
([url]http://www.gotomycodes.com/userpics/myspacegraphics/Music-Artists-Backgrounds/Jimi-Hendrix.jpg[/url])

([url]http://hiphappy.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/janis-joplin-rolling-stone-n-348569.jpg[/url])

Some others include Clapton, Townshend, Daltrey, Moon, Page etc Also the guy in my avatar  ;)


Moon is the king of rock stars. He perfected the rock star life style.  Either him or Keith Richards. But Keith Richards survived, so maybe he's not such a rock star after all!

(http://i314.photobucket.com/albums/ll402/Mrs_McCartney62/Keith%20Moon/beatinst_196602.jpg?t=1238118187)
(http://musicalstewdaily.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/keith-moon.jpg) (http://static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2009/1/26/saupload_the_who_moon.jpg)


Jim Morrison is beyond rock star. Jim Morrison is other worldly. There is no word for Jim Morrison.

I did a batik of this in high school. Still have it!
(http://www.testriffic.com/resultfiles/19561jim-morrison%5B1%5D.jpg)
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: mr vandebilt on March 27, 2009, 03:27:16 AM
(http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/3518/flower1ra2.jpg) (http://img529.imageshack.us/my.php?image=flower1ra2.jpg)


I've always loved Jim Morrison
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: MandyBuglet on March 27, 2009, 04:44:22 PM
Quote from: 1620
But where are the Ringoites?   :P

*raises hand* Ringo's my favorite!

Or do you mean a fan who thinks he's the best and the rest don't compare?

Because I'm not like that.
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: Jane on March 27, 2009, 08:32:34 PM
What are the Ringoites doing according to you, Kevin? Your post was the best of the best so far, absolutely perfect in all respects! I am admiring you. Great!
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: pc31 on April 08, 2009, 03:48:58 PM
rss-ZVgZz9g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rss-ZVgZz9g)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5Tl9sBcNrg&NR=1
Title: Re: Why do some John people dislike Paul so much?
Post by: TomMo on June 07, 2012, 04:39:02 AM
I'll bite, I guess.

Hey, Doctor: I'm picking on your post, not because I disrespect your opinion, but because you've offered a lot to think about.

The John/Paul camps formed from the beginning of Beatlemania, mostly among their young, female fans. I know because my ex-girlfriend at the time was a Johnny, not a Paulie. Even into her adulthood, John could do no wrong, Paul could do no right.

Two other things to consider:

1. John abdicated his position as "Chief Beatle" around the Sgt. Pepper's era. Blame it on anything you like (Yoko, drugs, Beatle-fatigue, etc.) But there was a power vacuum within the group. After Brain Epstein's death, who but Paul could step up and assume some kind of leadership. My wife commented on John's lack of interest in the "Let It Be" sessions (from the film) until...Billy Preston walked in with George. Suddenly, John takes over: "We need to get these instruments tuned", etc.

2. Compare Lennon's comments to Paul's comments in the post-breakup years in the early 70's. IMHO, John did a hatchet job on Paul in the press. A lot of people took sides with one or the other as a result.