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[Bobber]

Today it occured to me that during the days of Beatlemania, most material was written by John. Looking at A Hard Day's Night, Paul comes up with Can't Buy Me Love, And I Love Her and Things We Said Today. All other songs do have John as the main or only composer. During Fall he came up with She's A Woman (backing I Feel Fine). For Beatles For Sale John wrote the better songs (No Reply, I'm A Loser, Baby's In Black, I Don't Want To Spoil The Party) again imho. Paul revisited the 'old' I'll Follow The Sun and What You're Doing. Together they wrote Eight Days A Week and Every Little Thing. The songs for the film Help! aren't too good on Paul's part as well. Another Girl and The Night Before can not stand up against John's Help!, You've Got To Hide Your Love Away and You're Going To Lose That Girl. It wasn't until the session for I've Just Seen A Face, I'm Down and Yesterday that Paul came up with excellent material since Can't Buy Me Love again. It looks as if Paul needed inspiration in the second half of 64 and first half of 65. Any thoughts?

[Dark Phoenyx]

It seems that at beginning of Beatlemania John had the energy to write good songs.  But then when Beatlemania began to take its toll John began to change and that was noticed in the songs he wrote; beginning with Help! where perhaps he was expressing for the first time he was feeling lost or confused.  By that time they worked as a unit and John was the leader of the band.

[Beatles]

Yeah, Paul was defenetly inferior to John in songwrtiting. I think that it still extends a bit to Rubber Soul. You Won't See Me and Im Looking Through You are ok, but they don't match up to Girl and Norwegian Wood. Sure Michelle and Drive My Car are fantastic, but thats about the only good Paul song that was good, and with pretty important help from John. After that, Paul came out with very good songs relatively equal to Johns.

I dont think Paul was having writers block actually, I think he was just progressing as a songwriter.

You also gotta remember, John was a pretty domineering guy, he was the leader of the band, and becuase of that he got lead vocal on most songs that were John and Paul 50/50s. Even though John was singing,they wrote most together.

[alexis]

Today it occured to me that during the days of Beatlemania, most material was written by John. Looking at A Hard Day's Night, Paul comes up with Can't Buy Me Love, And I Love Her and Things We Said Today. All other songs do have John as the main or only composer. During Fall he came up with She's A Woman (backing I Feel Fine). For Beatles For Sale John wrote the better songs (No Reply, I'm A Loser, Baby's In Black, I Don't Want To Spoil The Party) again imho. Paul revisited the 'old' I'll Follow The Sun and What You're Doing. Together they wrote Eight Days A Week and Every Little Thing. The songs for the film Help! aren't too good on Paul's part as well. Another Girl and The Night Before can not stand up against John's Help!, You've Got To Hide Your Love Away and You're Going To Lose That Girl. It wasn't until the session for I've Just Seen A Face, I'm Down and Yesterday that Paul came up with excellent material since Can't Buy Me Love again. It looks as if Paul needed inspiration in the second half of 64 and first half of 65. Any thoughts?

I agree with your main point, but I gotta say that although Paul's contribution to AHDN was perhaps less voluminous than John's, those three songs stand up to just about any other Lennon-McCartney songs IMO!

[Andy Smith]

Macca seemed at an incredible peak during Revolver (for no one, eleanor rigby,
here there & everywhere..) but John seemed better during Rubber Soul (nowhere man,
in my life, norweigan wood..). saying that paul's songs were not that great on Help,.
what about 'Yesterday!.  
Lennon dominated most of the Hard Days Night album..

[tkitna]

I agree with your main point, but I gotta say that although Paul's contribution to AHDN was perhaps less voluminous than John's, those three songs stand up to just about any other Lennon-McCartney songs IMO!

You beat me to it as I was going to say the same thing.

All things considered, it seems John did write better songs in that time frame.

[DaveRam]

I always think of John as been very much in control of the early Beatles the guy was just  " Red Hot " during those years.
Paul's career is full of somewhat dry periods ? Having said that i think his three numbers on  " A Hard Days Night " are brilliant ?
Also  " A World Without Love " which is one of his songs i believe was a transatlantic # 1 for Peter and Gordon in 1964 ?

[Beatlemaniac64]

I always think of the two as about equal, in 1964 and pretty much throughout their whole Beatles career. I know that Paul contributed to John songs, and vise-versa. And some of that just might be opinion on the songs, 'cause on Rubber Soul I think I'm Looking Through You certainly matches up to Norwegian Wood, and same with the Help! album. I just think of both of them as the equal leaders.  

[fendertele]

I might be completely wrong but i always got the feeling that from the early years up to please please me album there were 4 beatles going in the same direction musically.

Then after please please me through to rubber soul it was 3 goin one way and one starting to go slightly in another direction, I always felt Macca's Contributions in that period were showing what was to come and was a little off with the other 3 who were still playing late 50's rock and roll ?

Also i feel the rest probably weren't sure what to make of some of pauls stuff or what to do with it and perhaps thats why he had such little volume of songs at that point, not to say he couldn't write great little songs like "cant buy me love" is just he goes from one style to another from song to song where as a lot of songwriters make that kind of change from album to album.

George was a rock and roller ? John was a rock and roller ? Ringo loved to Boogie? and Paul could rock and roll like the rest of them but his output was becoming less and less what the rest were into/playing.

also if you look through all McCartneys songs there is quite a few that has no George guitar or George playing something Macca had wrote, where as in most Lennon contributions George played his own parts and i feel was more at ease with lennons styling's and could find his part a lot easier than in Maccas.

Basically i think when john writes something he writes the chords and his lyrics and leave the rest open to the band, where as macca would write the chord, lyrics and most of the accompaniment.

[Beatles]

I might be completely wrong but i always got the feeling that from the early years up to please please me album there were 4 beatles going in the same direction musically.

Then after please please me through to rubber soul it was 3 goin one way and one starting to go slightly in another direction, I always felt Macca's Contributions in that period were showing what was to come and was a little off with the other 3 who were still playing late 50's rock and roll ?

Also i feel the rest probably weren't sure what to make of some of pauls stuff or what to do with it and perhaps thats why he had such little volume of songs at that point, not to say he couldn't write great little songs like "cant buy me love" is just he goes from one style to another from song to song where as a lot of songwriters make that kind of change from album to album.

George was a rock and roller ? John was a rock and roller ? Ringo loved to Boogie? and Paul could rock and roll like the rest of them but his output was becoming less and less what the rest were into/playing.

also if you look through all McCartneys songs there is quite a few that has no George guitar or George playing something Macca had wrote, where as in most Lennon contributions George played his own parts and i feel was more at ease with lennons styling's and could find his part a lot easier than in Maccas.

Basically i think when john writes something he writes the chords and his lyrics and leave the rest open to the band, where as macca would write the chord, lyrics and most of the accompaniment.

I agree, I read in Geoff Emericks book,who was with the Beatles duting most recording sessions,that John was always much more open with his music than Paul was.  Paul always had a concrete idea of how he wanted the song to sound, but John was very good with criticism of his music from the other guys, like the song "Come Together" was very different at the beggining until Paul changed it round and put that swampy bass on it.

[fendertele]

yeah i hadnt read that but i always got the idea that when john brought the song to the gusy to listen to it would be a demo of him singing along to a guitar/piano and no more.

But with paul he'd have a full recording with backing vocals,strings,all the guitar parts written andan almost finished recording, not leaving much for the other to play around with.

which could have been off putting for the other members especially if he wouldnt budge on how it should sound or just because they couldnt get into it as they werent playing something they had a part in writing.

 i know if one of the boys in my band brung a song forward and i wasnt  really feeling it, i could always write a guitar part to it that will make me get into it a little more, were as if i had to play a part already written i would probably still not get into it, and this maybe was the reason that led to him having less volume in the early days.

It didnt look like it changed much so it makes you think how he managed to get more in the future ? maybe a he gave a little bit of leeway or maybe as john got into drugs and less and less in touch with everythign there was no one to say no to him any more.

[DaveRam]

Think John was more impressionism and Paul more realism, they were just different painters when writing songs ?

[fendertele]

I agree, I read in Geoff Emericks book,who was with the Beatles duting most recording sessions,that John was always much more open with his music than Paul was.  Paul always had a concrete idea of how he wanted the song to sound, but John was very good with criticism of his music from the other guys, like the song "Come Together" was very different at the beggining until Paul changed it round and put that swampy bass on it.

Yeah i also think john put an emphasis on his lyrics more than the actual music/melody side of things, he let the lyrics take you to were he wanted  to take you too.

Were as i think the emotion in Maccas songs comes from the musical arrangement more so than his lyrics.

So tampering with the musical side of lennons songs and tampering with the musical side of Maccas would be two different things with it having more effect on the end product of McCartney's

I think the guys sometimes gave john ideas for lyrics or maybe came up with a line or two for themselves to sing in one his songs, but would he have been as easy going about them changing his lyrics as he would about changing parts of the music ?

[harihead]

Wow, great discussion! Fendertele, you're full of neat insights for me.

Were as i think the emotion in Maccas songs comes from the musical arrangement more so than his lyrics.

So tampering with the musical side of lennons songs and tampering with the musical side of Maccas would be two different things with it having more effect on the end product of McCartney's

I think the guys sometimes gave john ideas for lyrics or maybe came up with a line or two for themselves to sing in one his songs, but would he have been as easy going about them changing his lyrics as he would about changing parts of the music ?

Hey, ho. This could easily be the root of Paul's unwillingness to allow anyone else to change his music. If he felt the sound was his main contribution, changing it would sort of negate his main contribution. He was dictatorial with other folks other than the Beatles; it seems as if, once he found his feet musically, the sound superceded the words. John was very particular about his words, saw them as a key contribution.

i know if one of the boys in my band brung a song forward and i wasnt  really feeling it, i could always write a guitar part to it that will make me get into it a little more, were as if i had to play a part already written i would probably still not get into it, and this maybe was the reason that led to him having less volume in the early days.

Also another good insight into George feeling alienated, as Paul's output increased and John's decreased. He didn't feel he could own much of the Beatles, if Paul was simply going to dictate to him how to play his part. Neat insight from a working band. Thanks.

[fendertele]

Wow, great discussion! Fendertele, you're full of neat insights for me.


Hey, ho. This could easily be the root of Paul's unwillingness to allow anyone else to change his music. If he felt the sound was his main contribution, changing it would sort of negate his main contribution. He was dictatorial with other folks other than the Beatles; it seems as if, once he found his feet musically, the sound superceded the words. John was very particular about his words, saw them as a key contribution.


Also another good insight into George feeling alienated, as Paul's output increased and John's decreased. He didn't feel he could own much of the Beatles, if Paul was simply going to dictate to him how to play his part. Neat insight from a working band. Thanks.

yes Harihead I feel that pauls rising to being the Main songwriter and Lennons Slow demise put a lot more tension between the band especially as i think McCartney was quite picky about how the song should sound and what should be played which probably took the fun out of it for the guys and reduced them to nothing more than session musicians.

George to Paul in Let It BE movie "Yeah, okay, well, I don't mind. I'll play, you know, whatever you want me to play. Or I won't play at all if you don't want me to play, you know. Whatever it is that'll please you, I'll do it" you get the feeling that wasn't the first time they had that conversation, with songs like penny lane, eleanor rigby, yesterday just to name a few.

[Bobber]

Interesting thoughts. John was always more 'the writer', Paul more 'the composer'. John's contributions to Paul's songs seem to be something textual in a lot of cases (I Saw Her Standing There), Paul's contributions to John's songs something musical. I'm sure there's a lot of contradictions, but in mainstream this could be true. Paul seemed to be pretty sure and accurate of how his song (which he did regard as HIS song) should sound. That is his power ánd his weakness: usually his songs become even better when he's letting the ideas (guitarsolo on My Love) of other take part as well.

[Kevin]

Perhaps during Beatlemania John was doing well merclessly plundering the songbooks of american black acts and turning them into songs suitable for the white middle classes. From 65 he did the same thing to Dylan. From 68 it was Yoko.  
Paul took longer to find his feet and found his "inspiration" elsewhere.
Maybe.

[fendertele]

welcome back Kevin hadnt see nyou in a little while hope you had a good one

[Kevin]

welcome back Kevin hadnt see nyou in a little while hope you had a good one

Thankyou my friend. Been staying at a cottage on the South Yorkshire moors with the "wife". Lots of walking, good simple food and Lost dvd's in the evenings. I feel very refreshed and ready to go.

[BlueMeanie]

I wonder if Paul's 'problem' was that he was too eclectic for his own good? It's something I admire in him, by the way, but if he'd just stuck to knocking out quality guitar pop maybe he'd have contributed more songs in that period? This could also have contributed to George's problem. Being the inexperienced songwriter, and always in the shadows of Lennon/McCartney, when writing he may have been constantly trying to work out what exactly constituted a Beatles song?!

Footnote: I may be talking complete bollocks here!