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Solo forums => Paul McCartney => Topic started by: Xose on June 18, 2010, 03:27:01 PM

Title: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 18, 2010, 03:27:01 PM
Hello,

I would like to start this new topic with the aim of getting your help and thoughts.

Some facts:

Alan Clayson - Pauline Sutcliffe, Backbeat. Stuart Sutcliffe: The Lost Beatle, London, Pan Books, 1994, p. 91:

"...Up at the Kaiserkeller, the group's [Derry & The Seniors] hours off caused the crowd to thin. Custom was lost, Koschmider presumed, to the hated Top Ten and entrampment ny Sheridan for the rest of the night. It was a bit unreasonable to expect Wilkie's boys to work around the clock without a rest but, discontinuing the juke-box, Bruno bridged the gaps by extracting the saxophonist and pianist from the Seniors, and Sutcliffe from the Beatles, and bringing in a German jazz drummer from another club. Stuart's borrowed the Seniors' instrument while the Beatles restructured their act [at Indra] with left-handed Paul playing the absent member's bass upside down..."

VERY interesting, as this was the very beginning of Paul playing bass. Remember that the Indra was closed by the police on Tuesday 4 October 1960...

Derry & The Seniors line-up when they arrived in Hamburg in 1960 was Howie Casey (saxophone), Derry Wilkie (vocals), Jeff Wallington (drums), Billy Hughes (rhythm guitar/vocals), Brian Griffiths (lead guitar) and Phil Whitehead (bass). But..., which type of bass did Whitehead play in Hamburg at those days??

- 500/1??:

(http://www.beatlesource.com/savage/1960/60.XX.XX%20various%20-%20ringo/10x.jpg)

"...According to an article by musician Iain Hines, which accompanied this photo in a January 1965 issue of 16 Magazine, this photo was taken the night Paul and Pete were arrested by the Hamburg police for the infamous fire incident. Hines claims this band was hastely thrown together to fill The Beatles' spot..."

500/5??:

(http://www.lilypix.com/photos/data/ab233b682ec355648e7891e66c54191b/2179_p46996.jpg)

Framus Star??:

(http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/4711/thejets1960.jpg) (http://img96.imageshack.us/i/thejets1960.jpg/)

The Jets at The Top Ten Club, Hamburg, July 1960. The front line left to right: Pete Wharton (bass), Colin Melander (guitar), Tony Sheridan (guitar), Rick Hardy (guitar).

Top Ten's Double Bass*??:

(http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/2546/toptendoublebass.jpg) (http://img813.imageshack.us/i/toptendoublebass.jpg/)

Tony Sheridan & The Jets at Top Ten in 1961

Xosé

*Purchased for the club by Peter Eckhorn...
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 18, 2010, 03:37:02 PM
But the question is: did McCartney REALLY decide to take over on bass in late 1960 if...

1) he had at his dispossal Stu's 500/5?? (=Alan Clayson - Pauline Sutcliffe: "...the Beatles restructured their act [at Indra] with left-handed Paul playing the absent member's bass upside down...")

2) he could use his Solid 7 as a bass?? (=Harrison's letter to Stu dated 16 December 1960: "...It's no good with Paul playing bass, we'd decided, that is if he had some kind of bass and amp to play on!...")

3) they could use Chas Newby + a borrowed Höfner bass to play at gigs?? (=McCartney: "...The way I'd been brought up, my dad had always hammered into us to never get in debt, because we weren't that rich...")

4) playing bass wasn't cool?? (=McCartney: "...None of us wanted to be the bass player. It wasn't the number one job: we wanted to be up front. In our minds, it was the fat guy in the group who nearly always played the bass, and be stood at the back. None of us wanted that; we wanted to be up front singing, looking good, to pull the birds...")

IMHO, McCartney was 'forced' to take the bass in April 1961 because he was the only one who hadn't got a guitar by then (=the Soild 7 was not longer there). After that, he led bass playing "...to be up front singing, looking good, to pull the birds...", as we can listen at Polydor recordings...

But he played bass from time to time while in Hamburg (=Stu's 500/5 and maybe his 'Solid_7_converted_to_a bass'). Why?? Because George was the lead guitarist, John was the band leader -and owned a new Rickenbacker- and Stu wasn't there sometimes. So, Paul was THE one to play that role (=same he did in Liverpool with drums and at Top Ten in April 1961 with the piano...)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, another picture surfaces:

Peter Stone, "An interview with The Beatles' Chas Newby", Beatlology Magazine (September/October 2007), pp. 8-13:

"...CN:...And funny enough, that's exactly the same as Red Sails In The Sunset. I can remember, even Paul must have, I guess, been listening for the bass line that he wanted in a particular song. And, I can remember him playing it, because bear in mind we were both left-handed and so we had a certain affinity. But I can remember him playing it on his guitar and then showing me the notes that he wanted me to play for Red Sails In The Sunset and Hallelujah, I Love Her So. But with all the others, there wasn't that sort of problem, because they were basically... 12-bar blues and just play the bass line like a boogie-woogie, like a left-hand on a piano.

P.S.: It's intriguing that Paul was interested, even back then, in the bass lines.

CN: All I'm saying is that he was the one who told me what he wanted to hear. Whether it was just the bass line or whether he told the others what he wanted to hear, I don't know. I'm not aware of that. But, he was the one in those two particular songs. He made sure that I knew what it was he wanted..."


The interview is very interesting and full of very good info about those historical days at the end of December 1960. But what we can conclude from Chas Newby words is that Paul McCartney was playing bass lines with his Solid 7 at those days, and he was VERY sure of the bass lines he wanted for -at least some- group songs...

Thoughts?? ???

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 18, 2010, 03:53:24 PM
And...

Stuart Sutcliffe, letter to Susan Williams in Liverpool, Autumn 1960 in Hamburg (=apud Pauline Sutcliffe - Douglas Thompson, Stuart Sutcliffe & his lonely hearts club, London, Pan Books, 2001, pp. 90-91):

"...I've just had to buy another amplifier for my guitar which is costing £120. I'm paying it weekly at £7 but unfortunately my boss won't sign the HP papers - but I have the amplifier!..."

This is doubtlessly Gibson GA-40 Les Paul later bought by Harrison off Sutcliffe. What I'm wondering is Sutcliffe remark "...I'm paying it weekly at £7 but unfortunately my boss [Bruno Koschmider] won't sign the HP papers...". So..., does this mean that they could get the gear -maybe via a deposit- BEFORE signing HP papers??  ???

If so, this could explain what happened with McCartney's HP date for his Solid 7, and also why McCartney purchased Selmer Truvoice Stadium amp off George by December that year...  roll:)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 18, 2010, 08:00:44 PM
Stuart Sutcliffe, letter to Ken Horton in Liverpool, Autumn 1960 in Hamburg (=apud Pauline Sutcliffe - Douglas Thompson, Stuart Sutcliffe & his lonely hearts club, London, Pan Books, 2001, p. 89):

"...I've just decided that at Christmass I pack in rocking and join the club again...When I come home at Christmass it'll be for good, also without guitar probably - I'll sell it if I can..."

Pete Best - Patrick Doncaster, Beatle! The Pete Best Story, London, Plexus, 1985, pp. 41-42.

"...Sometimes Paul wouldn’t even have his guitar plugged in...Paul, with possibly only one string on an unplugged guitar...”

Dave Ravenscroft, private email dated 23 February 2010:

"...I spoke to Wally [Shephard] about the bass and he does remember Paul playing it [the Rosetti Solid 7] at those early dates in [January] 1961, but he couldn't really remember any detail. He does recall - just like my friend Dave Williams did - that Paul was playing it without plugging it in to his amp and that he played it high up on his chest. The vocal microphone he used was then picking up the sound of Paul hitting the strings with his plectrum, which came out through the speakers like a dull clicking sound...”

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 19, 2010, 05:28:42 PM
Dave Ravenscroft, private email dated 1 February 2010:

"...I have just spoken to a friend of mine [Wally Shephard] who played on the same bill as The Beatles on several occasions in and around Liverpool. He clearly remembers Paul playing the Rosetti during a show at the Aintree Institute in early 1961 (January)* and that it only had a few strings on it. However, he is fairly certain that he did not have it plugged into an amp at all and that he was using it as just a 'prop'..."

Dave Ravenscroft, private email dated 5 February 2010:

"...I have asked my friend again about the time he saw Paul with the three-string bass [Aintree Institute in January 1961] and he says that there probably was no bass at all, as you said, because Stu was not with them on that show. They were so loud anyway that it did not really matter about there being no bass!..."

Dave Ravenscroft, private email dated 23 February 2010:

"..So, although there was no actual bass, what he [Paul] was playing [Rosetti Soild 7 high up on his chest] did get amplified through the vocal microphone. Wally also remembers that their overall sound was different without Stu Sutcliffe, which seems to suggest that Stu was not that bad a bass player as everyone thinks..."

Xosé

* According to several sources they played Aintree Institute in January 1961 on Saturday 7, Friday 13, Saturday 14, Wednesday 18, Saturday 21, Friday 27 & Saturday 28...
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 20, 2010, 09:49:10 AM
Sam Leach, The Birth of The Beatles, Gwynedd, Pharaoh, 1999, p. 49 (=about their debut at The Cassanova Club in Liverpool, in 1961, February the 11th...)

(http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/7207/samleach.jpg) (http://img24.imageshack.us/i/samleach.jpg/)

"...You're playing more of them than Paul does then..."

What was Sam Leach meaning?? Any thoughts??  ???

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: eroz0 on June 20, 2010, 10:11:08 AM
Ive no idea what he could mean. Maybe it was just a random thing he said, trying to make Stu feel better. I'm surprised that Paul didn't object and instead went along with it.

BTW, this thread is great. Thanks for putting all this info together.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: An Apple Beatle on June 20, 2010, 10:26:12 AM
I reckon he is referring to the 'root' notes. In the beginning of playing bass for me, there was no way I could handle many riffs and such things but I could get by playing the root note of the chord. In this case Sam is trying to improve Stu's confidence by putting down Mr. Multi-instrument McCartney for being too fancy on the bass. It's a line to keep Stu inspired.

A great Chick Corea saying, 'It's not what you play, it's what you don't play.'
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 20, 2010, 11:17:07 AM
I reckon he is referring to the 'root' notes. In the beginning of playing bass for me, there was no way I could handle many riffs and such things but I could get by playing the root note of the chord. In this case Sam is trying to improve Stu's confidence by putting down Mr. Multi-instrument McCartney for being too fancy on the bass. It's a line to keep Stu inspired...

Thank you An Apple Beatle!! ;)

So, If I have rightly understood, Paul is playing MANY notes and Sam's saying is to keep Stu inspired. Ok. But...., what is playing Paul McCartney?? Bass or guitar??

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: An Apple Beatle on June 20, 2010, 10:39:44 PM
It's a bit confusing as it seems Paul would just fit in with what might be needed at the time,depending on available equipment. They would have got away with this in their earlier busking years. Their friendship seemed more important at the time. With a one string Rosseti unplugged I'm not sure what contribution he could have made but if it was plugged in he could 'ghost' basslines for Stu by increasing the bass control? Obviously Paul's musical knowledge was rated high by his band-mates and it was easiest for him out of them all to 'accomodate' his pals. Good buskers can get a sound out of almost anything. ;)
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 20, 2010, 11:15:53 PM
It's a bit confusing as it seems Paul would just fit in with what might be needed at the time,depending on available equipment. They would have got away with this in their earlier busking years. Their friendship seemed more important at the time. With a one string Rosseti unplugged I'm not sure what contribution he could have made but if it was plugged in he could 'ghost' basslines for Stu by increasing the bass control? Obviously Paul's musical knowledge was rated high by his band-mates and it was easiest for him out of them all to 'accomodate' his pals. Good buskers can get a sound out of almost anything. ;)


Oh yes. I have heard of a heavy metal group here in Spain that wanted their bass player with ONLY one string: the 4th. one, as they wouldn't need more...

The statement is a bit confusing, yes. But it seems that, by those days, Paul was using his Solid 7 as a bass with only three piano strings as in The Casbah photos dated one day later, 12 February 1961 (=according to Chazz Avery datation), and judging from all the quotes I have been uploading...

(http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/4697/1strosettipickup.jpg) (http://img444.imageshack.us/i/1strosettipickup.jpg/)

(http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/8198/41870459.jpg) (http://img191.imageshack.us/i/41870459.jpg/)

Who purchased Stu's Höfner 500/5 after his dead??

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: An Apple Beatle on June 20, 2010, 11:46:25 PM
Apparently, Paul got his first bass at the end of April 1961 when Stu was ready to leave the band according to this.

http://webspace.webring.com/people/mj/joelcrowservo/HofnerBass.html (http://webspace.webring.com/people/mj/joelcrowservo/HofnerBass.html)
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 21, 2010, 08:32:28 AM
Apparently, Paul got his first bass at the end of April 1961 when Stu was ready to leave the band...

Yes: that's right. And maybe a little bit earlier (=mid-April). But, obviously, McCartney was playing bass much before, either with Stu's borrowed bass, or with his Rosetti Solid 7 converted to a bass by means of three purloined piano strings...

And another question is: who REALLY played bass at those Forthlin Road tapes where a bass sound is heard??

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on June 21, 2010, 08:57:45 AM
And another question is: who REALLY played bass at those Forthlin Road tapes where a bass sound is heard??

That's a lot of questions in the whole thread plus some great research. If you listen carefully to the tapes made at Paul's bed- or bathroom, you can hear that the bass is sometimes out of rhythm and obviously played by a beginner. Even if Paul was playing a bass or whatever, I'm pretty sure it would have sounded better.

About your questions in the beginning of the thread: bands were mixed up in the Kaiserkeller days, but I'll have to check what bands were involved in that.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 21, 2010, 09:05:05 AM
That's a lot of question in the whole thread plus some great research. If you listen carefully to the tapes made at Paul's bed- or bathroom, you can hear that the bass is sometimes out of rhythm and obviously played by a beginner. Even if Paul was playing a bass or whatever, I'm pretty sure it would have sounded better.

Yes, you are right.

How many songs do we hear WITH BASS at those tapes??

According to Walter Everett, The Beatles as Musicians. The Quarry Men through Rubber Soul, Oxford, OUP, 2001, pp. 43-44, they are the following:

- 'Cayenne'

- 'You Must Write Everyday'

- 'Well, Darling'

- 'I Don't Know'

- 'Come On People'

- 'I'll Be Leaving'

- Blues in A

- Blues in G

- Blues in A

- Blues in G

- 'Hallelujah I Love Her So'

- 'That's When Your Heartaches Begin' (="...Harrison bass line on Futurama..."

So.., what?? ???

Those tapes COULD pre-date Sutcliffe's into the band, as the guitar playing is not good enough to be dated in Spring 1960 (=by those days they were on tour with Johnny Gentle!!). So..., could the bass beginner be Mike McCartney?? (=either with a borrowed bass, or a guitar tuned down...)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on June 21, 2010, 09:16:05 AM
Anthology dates the tapes 1960, with Stuart Sutcliffe on bass.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 21, 2010, 09:23:24 AM
Anthology dates the tapes 1960, with Stuart Sutcliffe on bass.

Yes. But..., Anthology only encloses three pieces (=HILHS, Y'llBM and 'Cayenne') and "..suggests that the session dates from the spring or early summer of 1960, when the Beatles were having troubles finding a drummer...". But at some other recordings there is a drummer, supposedly Mike McCartney. So..., troubles finding a drummer?? What about Mike McCartney then?? Why does he (=if that 'he' is Mike McCartney) play at some songs and not at some others??

If you listen carefully, you can hear different sessions, different guitars (=some acoustics, some electrics), etc.

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on June 21, 2010, 09:57:37 AM
Chazz Avery already suggests earlier in this thread that the recordings are from two different sessions. Where did you read about Mike McCartney? If the recordings where made at Paul's house, Mike might have available to bang a drum here and there. Obviously they did not consider him serious enough to be their drummer.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 21, 2010, 10:05:20 AM
Chazz Avery already suggests earlier in this thread that the recordings are from two different sessions. Where did you read about Mike McCartney? If the recordings where made at Paul's house, Mike might have available to bang a drum here and there. Obviously they did not consider him serious enough to be their drummer.


Walter Everett considers that Mike McCartney played drums at those recordings (=those where a drummer is audible at).

At Mike McCartney, Mike Mac's white and black plus one colour, London, Aurum Press, 1986, these photos...

(http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/9068/75169741.jpg) (http://img13.imageshack.us/i/75169741.jpg/)

(http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/9608/sconmike.jpg) (http://img32.imageshack.us/i/sconmike.jpg/)

...have the following reading:

"...Paul's first trumpet from Cousin Ian and two guitars, plus my drums and banjo..."

???

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on June 21, 2010, 10:14:11 AM
"...Paul's first trumpet from Cousin Ian and two guitars, plus my drums and banjo..."

The myth is that Paul traded his trumpet for a guitar, because he couldn't sing when he was playing the trumpet. This could of course be another trumpet...

Plus it's remarkable that if that is indeed Mike McCartney drumkit, it has a paper 'The Beatles' on the basedrum?
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 21, 2010, 10:19:45 AM
The myth is that Paul traded his trumpet for a guitar, because he couldn't sing when he was playing the trumpet. This could of course be another trumpet...

Yes. And those drums could date AFTER Spring 1960. Allan Williams - William Clayton, The Man Who Gave The Beatles Away, London, Elm Tree Books, 1975, p. 73:

"...I saw him [Tommy Moore] recently [by 1975] in Liverpool
'Allan, what happened to my kit?'
'I don't know, Tommy. Not a clue.'
He told me that he had asked the Beatles about it some time later in their career but the drums were sunk without trace.

[...]

'I'd still like to know what happened to those bloody drums though, Allan.'
'Yeah, it's a bleeding mystery, Tommy.'
'D'you think the Beatles took them?'
'Nah,'
'No, I wouldn't think so either. I think Paul played on them a couple of times after I left, mind.'
'Yeah?'
'Yeah. Don't know what came of them after that though.'
Tommy Moore, the best drummer the Beatles ever had, looked thoughtful..."


This means that by Summer 1960 they have got Tommy Moore's drums set and Paul took over the drums when needed:

George Harrison in Anthology book "...We had a stream of drummers coming through. After about three of these guys, we ended up with almost a full kit of drums from the bits that they'd left behind, so Paul decided he'd be the drummer. He was quite good at it. At least he seemed OK; probably we were all pretty crap at that point. It only lasted for one gig, but I remember it very well. It was in Upper Parliament Street where a guy called Lord Woodbine owned a strip club. It was in the afternoon, with a few perverts - five or so men in overcoats - and a local stripper. We were brought on as the band to accompany the stripper; Paul on drums, John and me on guitar and Stu on bass...."

When are they named 'The Beatles' for the first time?? According to most sources in Hamburg, August 1960...

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 21, 2010, 10:38:08 AM
But back to this thread topic. When did McCartney start to play bass FOR THE FIRST TIME in Hamburg??

Alan Clayson - Pauline Sutcliffe, Backbeat. Stuart Sutcliffe: The Lost Beatle, London, Pan Books, 1994, p. 91:

"...Up at the Kaiserkeller, the group's [Derry & The Seniors] hours off caused the crowd to thin. Custom was lost, Koschmider presumed, to the hated Top Ten and entrampment by Sheridan for the rest of the night. It was a bit unreasonable to expect Wilkie's boys to work around the clock without a rest but, discontinuing the juke-box, Bruno bridged the gaps by extracting the saxophonist and pianist from the Seniors, and Sutcliffe from the Beatles, and bringing in a German jazz drummer from another club. Stuart's borrowed the Seniors' instrument while the Beatles restructured their act [at Indra] with left-handed Paul playing the absent member's bass upside down..."

The Top Ten was opened on Saturday 9 July 1960

The Beatles started to play Indra on Wednesday 17 August 1960

The Indra was closed by the police on Tuesday 4 October 1960

So McCartney playing with Sutcliffe's borrowed bass at Indra happened during September 1960...

Was this the first time Paul played bass??

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 21, 2010, 10:58:25 AM
Barry Miles, Paul McCartney. Many Years From Now, London, Secker & Warburg, 1997, pp. 43-44:

"...Even though it was forced one me, it is interesting that I'm a bass player. I certainly didn't pick i because my grandfather had played bass [E-flat bass tuba]. My dad, presumably because of his dad, would point out the bass on a radio. He'd say, 'Listen to that. You hear that, dum duuum, dum? That's called the bass.' 'Oh.' My dad would take us to brass band concerts in the band shell in the park, and we would sit and listen, and I would always like that. It was very northern...I still have a very soft spot in my heart for brass bands, it's a root thing for me. And no wonder if my grandfather's semen had a load of bass genes on it, my dad must have passed them to me..."

Ibidem, pp. 74-75:

"...There's a theory that I maliciously worked Stu out of the group in order to get the prize chair of bass. Forget it! Nobody wants to play basss, or nobody did in those days...So I definitely didn't want to do it but Stuart left, and I got lumbered with it... Stuart lent me his bass till I got one, so I was playing it upside down..."

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 21, 2010, 11:10:22 AM
Dave Ravenscroft, private email dated 17 February 2010:

"...Wally Shephard who is the person who apparently taught Paul to play the bass line for the Chuck Berry song (I'm) Talking About You, which Paul then used for I Saw Her Standing There.
 
Wally is also a left-handed bass player, so he may know better than most about Paul's bass back then..."


Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 21, 2010, 11:38:18 AM
Walter Everett, The Beatles as Musicians. The Quarry Men through Rubber Soul, Oxford, OUP, 2001, p. 94:

"...McCartney first recordings as bassist [Polydor recordings, June 1961] show only the dominant compositional traits that became the core of his playing style into 1964...[1] Arpeggiation-based ostinati (with their basis in boogie-woogie) are taken from Presley recordings and from saxophone arrangements on Richard and Domino records. Otherwise, McCartney typically parts [2] repeated roots or [3] he alternates roots with fifths in dotted rhythm..."

i.e.: 1 - saxophone, 2 - rhythm guitar, 3 - bass tuba / left hand piano styles. The three ones he DID learn from the beginning...

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on June 22, 2010, 09:15:13 AM
Things obviously got together. When the switch to bass was to be made, John refused because he was John and George was the lead guitarist. And yes, it might very well be that Paul's gear wasn't really working well plus he was into the bass more than the other. That made the choice pretty obvious. I know that at first Paul didn't like playing the bass, but he soon found out that it was a great instrument.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 22, 2010, 10:18:02 AM
Things obviously got together. When the switch to bass was to be made, John refused because he was John and George was the lead guitarist. And yes, it might very well be that Paul's gear wasn't really working well plus he was into the bass more than the other. That made the choice pretty obvious. I know that at first Paul didn't like playing the bass, but he soon found out that it was a great instrument.

Yes...

BTW: could you finally get any info of the bass players in Hamburg at my first post in this thread??

Best!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on June 22, 2010, 11:09:16 AM
Can the pictures of the Wyvern Club be of any help?

http://www.dmbeatles.com/forums/index.php?topic=7201.0 (http://www.dmbeatles.com/forums/index.php?topic=7201.0)
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 22, 2010, 11:25:51 AM
Can the pictures of the Wyvern Club be of any help?

[url]http://www.dmbeatles.com/forums/index.php?topic=7201.0[/url] ([url]http://www.dmbeatles.com/forums/index.php?topic=7201.0[/url])


Only for the following facts. Regarding bass players that historical day:

- Stuart Sutcliffe played his brunnette Höfner 500/5 with The Silver Beatles

- Malcom Linnell played his blonde Höfner 500/5 with Cliff Roberts & The Rockers

- Johnny Gustafson played his Hoyer_Soloist_converted_to_a_bass with Cass & The Cassanovas

- Les Chadwick played his Framus_Sorella_converted_to_a_bass with Gerry & The Pacemakers

- Another guy* played his Kay (=not sure!!) with Derry & The Seniors. Was this guitar also converted to a bass??

At least two bass players (=perhaps three??) at this historical audition had their regular guitars converted to a bass, i.e., 40% (=perhaps 60%??) of the total. And we are dealing with 'la creme de la creme' of Liverpool bands at those times, trying to do their best in front of Larry Parnes and Billy Fury**. No wonder that Paul McCartney did the same a few months after with his Solid 7...

Xosé

* I have found that Derry & The Seniors' line-up of the group when they arrived in Hamburg in 1960 was Howie Casey (saxophone), Derry Wilkie (vocals), Jeff Wallington (drums), Billy Hughes (rhythm guitar/vocals), Brian Griffiths (lead guitar) and Phil Whitehead (bass).

** Something which means that The Silver Beetles playing standards COULDN'T be that of Forthlin Road tapes by Spring 1960...
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on June 22, 2010, 11:37:48 AM
Converting a guitar into a bass could have been a common thing to do. Most bassplayers start as a guitarist and purchasing a bassguitar meant spending a lot of money. I can accept that. ;D
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 22, 2010, 11:54:01 AM
Converting a guitar into a bass could have been a common thing to do. Most bassplayers start as a guitarist and purchasing a bassguitar meant spending a lot of money. I can accept that. ;D

Of course!! Even me in mid-seventies did the same!! ;)

But see: at Larry Parness audition there are five of the most important Liverpool bands by May 1960. Two (=maybe three) of the bass players had no basses, but guitars converted to basses. And another two (=Sutcliffe and Malcolm Linnell) had regular basses. Which ones?? Höfner 500/5's. How many different bass makes were available in Liverpool at those days?? Probably only one: Höfner 500/5.

Which other 'important' Liverpool bands were NOT at Larry Parness audition??

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on June 22, 2010, 12:02:19 PM
I think Rory Storm wasn't there.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 22, 2010, 12:36:59 PM
I think Rory Storm wasn't there.


Well. Rory Storm was at the audition but didn't play. His bass player, Walter Eymond -aka Lu Walters-, played a Framus Star bass by those days...

Xosé

(http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/5049/28262759.jpg) (http://img683.imageshack.us/i/28262759.jpg/)
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Kevin on June 22, 2010, 12:56:53 PM
Just want to say I really admire what you guys are doing in these threads. This early-days stuff isn't my bag, but this kind of Beatle archeology stuff really is. Abandoning your preconceptions, picking up those bones and trying to look at them with a fresh eye. It's amazing what you might find. Fantastic!
"You call him DOCTOR Jones lady!"
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 22, 2010, 01:55:57 PM
Thank you Kevin!! ;)

As far as I have found, the Framus Star bass was the first bass guitar fully available in the UK. The Selmer distributed Hofner 500/5 followed very soon after it. The first owner of a Star Bass is reputed to have been Don Wilson of the Sidekicks Skiffle Group, but Jet Harris, later of the Shadows, apparently purchased the Aristone version at around the same time in 1957. Shirley Douglas (part of the Chas McDevitt & Shirley Douglas Duo) was probably the first woman to own a Star Bass in the UK from sometime in 1958.

It's interesting the fact that both Höfner and Framus presented his first bass guitars ever produced at Frankfurt Musikmesse in 1956 (=500/1 and Star bass, respectively). Before that, there were NOT European bass guitars, if I right, and importing them from the USA was forbidden...

I've attached a scan out of the Dallas catalogue of c1960, which has prices included (=Sutcliffe's 500/5 was 48 gns on 21 January 1960...)

Xosé

(http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/6105/p108framus.jpg) (http://img202.imageshack.us/i/p108framus.jpg/)
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 22, 2010, 05:23:43 PM
Michael Hannan, "Melodicism in Paul McCartney's bass playing" in Yrjö Heinonen et alii (eds.), Beatlestudies 2. Proceedings of the Beatles 2000 Conference, Jyväskylä, University, 2001, pp. 231-242:

"...For the most part, the techniques used by McCartney in the first five Beatles albums and the singles of the same period, are remarkably straightforward, functional and economical...
...By far the most common techniques are (1) to employ only the root of each chord of the progerssion of the song and (2) to employ the root of the chord on the first beat of the bar and the fifth of the chord on the third beat of the bar...
...Quite a few songs of the period are rock and roll songs with boogie- style repeated melodic bass patterns..."


Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 23, 2010, 08:36:53 AM
Dr. Christian Hoyer (=Framus historian. He has written the book Framus: Built in the Heart of Bavaria, Framus, 2007), private email dated 23 june 2010:

"...What made him [Fred Wilfer] design the instrument [Star bass] was rather the desire of musicians.
Fred Wilfer had always an open ear for them, he worked closely with Peter Kraus, Attila Zoller and first of all Billy Lorento (Bill Lawrence) who recommended the thinline guitar designed with him in 1953... and then three years later the Star Bass 5/150 was launched, almost the same thinline body like the 5/120 Billy Lorento guitar.
Because Fred Wilfer worked with bands such as the Starlets who also gave their name to the new bass: Star Bass..."


So..., did Walter Höfner know about Fred Wilfer's attempts to design a bass guitar by 1955??  8)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 23, 2010, 05:17:19 PM
Christian Hoyer, Framus - Built in the Heart of Bavaria, Cantz, Edition Framus, 2007, p. 40:

"...An additional setback came for Framus, the largest company in the industry, in this period of malaise. Walter Höfner, since May 1, 1947 production supervisor for the plucked instrument division at Framus and his brother Josef, who had been working as export specialist at Framus since April 1948, understandably planned to found their tradition-rich family company anew after the conclusion of their denazification proceedings. In the summer of 1948, however, this resulted in 'certain differences of opinion about the future form of the mutual legal relationship'. The denazification according to the amnesty legislation of August 1948 cleared the way for a potential revival of the immemorial 'Karl Höfner' company. Originally, both a partnership with Framus and the naming of both family names in the Framus company name had been discussed for the time after their denazification. Since Walter Höfner was so important in the company, his wife had already been bestowed with a 50-percent share of Framus' profits as of July 1947. A further deepening of the partnership did not ensue after August 1948, however, and the interpersonal realtionship between the two families became so charged that a full dissociation followed in October 1948.

An avalanche of legal proceedings followed over such things as a radio, a shack of corrugated metal or a gluing method. The main case, which was to clarify to what extent Walter Höfner or his wife were already in a partnership with Framus, stretched over six years and finally ended with a settlement in 1956..."


Christian Hoyer, op. cit., p. 104:

"...The Star bass was put through practical tests long before it was introduced at the Frankfurt spring fair in 1956. The instrumental quartet 'Starlets' worked with the new bass and gave it its name. At the time, the quartet played for popular artists such as Vico Torriani or Gerhard Wendland..."

This means: Höfner bros. were having legal arguments with Fred Wilfer when the TWO first European bass guitars were designed...

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on June 25, 2010, 07:11:59 AM
You're going indepth on the history of electric guitars and basses here. I know there's a piece of history here on that topic on this forums, but I could not find it.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 25, 2010, 09:28:59 AM
From Steve Russell Höfner site:

http://www.vintagehofner.co.uk/cont.html (http://www.vintagehofner.co.uk/cont.html)

"...Hofner at the Frankfurt Music Fair in Spring 1956. Frau Wanda Hofner (Walter Hofner's wife) is sat at the table. The 'new' 500/1 Bass model can be seen at the right-hand side of the main display...."

The pickups of that first '56 were separated, and so were at the bass included in the '56 catalogue. Steve Rusell: "...However, Höfner in those days took a photo of a new model, and then used it for years afterwards, even when significant changes had been made to the appearance of the model..."

Dr. Christian Hoyer and me are trying to get a photo of the Framus stand at the same Frankfurt Musikmesse, as it could perhaps show the Framus Star bass. I will let you know...

Meanwhile..., who was THE first musician in Liverpool to own a bass guitar?? Perhaps Walter Eymond -aka Lu Walters-, bass guitar player with Rory Storm and The Hurricanes?? Any clues??

Best!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on June 25, 2010, 09:49:06 AM

Meanwhile..., who was THE first musician in Liverpool to own a bass guitar?? Perhaps Walter Eymond -aka Lu Walters-, bass guitar player with Rory Storm and The Hurricanes?? Any clues??


That looks like a question for Bill Harry to answer.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: An Apple Beatle on June 25, 2010, 11:12:26 AM
That looks like a question for Bill Harry to answer.
I wait with baited breath. :)
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 25, 2010, 05:15:37 PM
I wait with baited breath. :)

So do I...

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 26, 2010, 04:46:59 PM
Alan Clayson - Pauline Sutcliffe, Backbeat. Stuart Sutcliffe: The Lost Beatle, London, Pan Books, 1994, p. 91:

"...Paul was now [middle January 1961] quite accomplished on the bass and Geoerge more than the others wanted to keep the status quo...
...But Paul and George were still [February 1961] not happy with Stuart on bass and they constantly questioned his commitment..."


Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 28, 2010, 06:17:22 PM
Quote from: Xosé
...Does anybody know who was the first liverpudlian bass guitar player??  Perhaps Walter Eymond -aka Lu Walters??...

Steve Russell, private email dated 22 June 2010:

"...Yes, the Framus bass was I think the first bass guitar fully available in the UK. The Selmer distributed Hofner 500/5 followed very soon after it. The first owner of a Star Bass is reputed to have been Don Wilson of the Sidekicks Skiffle Group, but Jet Harris, later of the Shadows, apparently purchased the Aristone version at around the same time in 1957. I believe that Shirley Douglas (part of the Chas McDevitt & Shirley Douglas Duo) was the first woman to own a Star Bass in the UK from sometime in 1958..."

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 28, 2010, 07:17:18 PM
Some Liverpudlian bass guitar players in 1960:

Walter Eymond -aka Lu Walters- playing his Framus Star Bass with Rory Storm & The Hurricanes:

(http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/8933/29858115.jpg) (http://img52.imageshack.us/i/29858115.jpg/)

Malcom Linnell playing his blonde Höfner 500/5 with Cliff Roberts & The Rockers:

(http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/3468/cliffrobertstherockersi.jpg) (http://img227.imageshack.us/i/cliffrobertstherockersi.jpg/)

Davey "Mushy" Cooper playing his blonde Höfner 500/5 with Bob's Vegas Five:

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b23/merseysider/BrianJonesDaveyCooper-Circa1960-1.jpg)

Stuart Sutcliffe playing his brunette Höfner 500/5 with The Silver Beetles:

(http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/2711/paulmccartneyzenithpick.jpg) (http://img19.imageshack.us/i/paulmccartneyzenithpick.jpg/)

Xosé


Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 29, 2010, 08:30:27 AM
Pauline Sutcliffe - Douglas Thompson, Stuart Sutcliffe & his lonely hearts club, London, Pan Books, 2001, p. 122:

"...'But Stuart lent me [Paul McCartney] his bass guitar when he left the group, so obviously we liked each other well enough, basically. I remember a string broke on that guitar and we couldn't get new strings -it must have been a Sunday or something- so we just get some pliers, and took ab A string off the piano, and amazingly it worked'..."

Why do we take for sure that the 22-24 June 1961 recordings with Tony Sheridan at Friedrich Ebert Halle were done with the 500/1??

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 29, 2010, 03:11:31 PM
Mo Foster, Seventeen Watts?, London, Sanctuary, 1997, pp. 93-94:

"...Often, in the enthusiasm of forming a band, there would be an excess of one instrument. This imbalance was solved during the skiffle period when four guitars would suddenly dwindle to three guitars as one player, so he imagined, was demoted to the lower rank of bass player. Everybody thought there had to be a bass although nobody actually knew what it did. The unfortunate player was usually chosen by default -either he knew the least number of chords, or he was last to join, or perhaps his personality dictated a desire to stand at the back...
...Somehow, somewhere, I'd heard the phrase 'Electric Bass Guitar'. It sounded longer and more important than just a guitar, and I liked it. Desperate for more information (even though my lack of funds would preclude such a purchase), I scanned the advertisements but they were not helpful. For example, 'The Hofner Bass Guitar': "Guitarists, double your income with the Hofner Bass Guitar. Tuned like a bass with the third, fourth, fifth and sixth strings of a guitar"...
...This confusing information led me to believe that to play the bass guitar you merely removed the top two strings of an ordinary guitar, and then in some way amplified it..."


This leads us to Johnny Gustafson & Les Chadwick (=& Phil Whitehead??) 'basses' discussed at this post... (http://www.dmbeatles.com/forums/index.php?topic=10577.28)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 30, 2010, 11:32:31 AM
Walter Everett, The Beatles as Musicians. The Quarry Men through Rubber Soul, Oxford, OUP, 2001, p. 94:

"...McCartney first recordings as bassist [Polydor recordings, June 1961] show only the dominant compositional traits that became the core of his playing style into 1964...[1] Arpeggiation-based ostinati (with their basis in boogie-woogie) are taken from Presley recordings and from saxophone arrangements on Richard and Domino records. Otherwise, McCartney typically parts [2] repeated roots or [3] he alternates roots with fifths in dotted rhythm..."

i.e.: 1 - saxophone, 2 - rhythm guitar, 3 - bass tuba / left hand piano styles. The three ones he DID learn from the beginning...

Listening to 'Swanee River' recording, the differences amongst Colin Crawley -aka Colin Melander- bass playing, and McCartney's one, become clear..., don't they??

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 30, 2010, 11:38:11 AM
BTW: does anyone have the other recordings (='Sweet Georgia Brown'??) including Colin Melander as bass player to Tony Sheridan??

Best!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 30, 2010, 02:11:13 PM
Pete Best - Patrick Doncaster, Beatle! The Pete Best Story, London, Plexus, 1985, pp. 41-42:

"...A more immediate problem, however, had been Stu. It had already been decided among the rest of us thet he would not take part in the recording session [with Tony Sheridan under Bert Kämpfert] because, it was agreed, the more experienced Paul would make a better showing on bass guitar..."

So, when Bert Kámpfert offered them the recording contract (=end May - beginning June 1961??) Stu was STILL considered part of the band... ???

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 30, 2010, 07:21:43 PM
That looks like a question for Bill Harry to answer.

From an interview with John Byrne -aka Johnny Guitar-, guitar player with Rory Storm & The Hurricanes:

"...Question. And I know you were the first Liverpool band to have an electric bass guitar.

Answer from Johnny Bryne Guitar. How that came about was.... we'd been using teachest bass but skiffle was going out. So, to play rock and roll you need the instruments and in Liverpool in 1958 all you had were Hofner guitars - which were great but they weren't rock and roll guitars. So I bought an Antoria in Rushworths for 29 quid. Everyone laughed at it when they first saw it. It was a Japanese import and it looked like a plank of wood, it was the first one in Liverpool. But I hadn't thought on that you needed a bloody amplifier to go with it. Nobody had amplifiers. So the first amplifier I used was a wooden box with a small valve amplifier and a speaker out of a cinema on West Derby Road. So I used that. Ringo had by now got a full kit together. We had a lead guitarist with a Hofner Club 40, but we were still using a tea chest bass. But Rory had met this woman who said her son had bought a Framus Star Bass, and she was making him take it back because it was too much. So me and Rory arranged to meet her at Hessy's were we bought it off him for 24 quid. No one knew what to do with it because there were no bass amps. In 1958/59 amps were just coming into the shops and they had Vox which were scarce and expensive and another firm called Selmer. So we bought 3 Selmers. Plugged the bass into one of them and we were off as a rock and roll band. When we did Brand New Cadillac the other bands would come over and say the sound was fantastic..."


Another mistery solved...  8)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 30, 2010, 08:29:54 PM
Walter Everett, The Beatles as Musicians. The Quarry Men through Rubber Soul, Oxford, OUP, 2001, p. 94:

"...McCartney first recordings as bassist [Polydor recordings, June 1961] show only the dominant compositional traits that became the core of his playing style into 1964...[1] Arpeggiation-based ostinati (with their basis in boogie-woogie) are taken from Presley recordings and from saxophone arrangements on Richard and Domino records. Otherwise, McCartney typically parts [2] repeated roots or [3] he alternates roots with fifths in dotted rhythm..."

i.e.: 1 - saxophone, 2 - rhythm guitar, 3 - bass tuba / left hand piano styles. The three ones he DID learn from the beginning...


According to George Harrison (=apud Eric Krasker, The Beatles. Fact and Fiction. 1960-1962, Biarritz, Séguier, 2009, p. 132) 'Cry For A Shadow' was composed in Hamburg in October 1960. The song was recorded on 22-23 June 1961 and it's one of the first -if not THE first- songs with McCartney playing bass.

I have transcribed (=sorry for the manuscript, as my Finale software today doesn't work...) McCartney's bass line and I'm wondering which bass playing style do we have here. IMHO, that of a rhythm guitar player..., isn't it??

Xosé

(http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/8731/cfasbass.jpg) (http://img818.imageshack.us/i/cfasbass.jpg/)
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on July 02, 2010, 08:28:40 AM
Pete Best - Patrick Doncaster, Beatle! The Pete Best Story, London, Plexus, 1985, pp. 41-42:

"...A more immediate problem, however, had been Stu. It had already been decided among the rest of us thet he would not take part in the recording session [with Tony Sheridan under Bert Kämpfert] because, it was agreed, the more experienced Paul would make a better showing on bass guitar..."

So, when Bert Kámpfert offered them the recording contract (=end May - beginning June 1961??) Stu was STILL considered part of the band... ???

Xosé

I don't agree with this source.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on July 02, 2010, 08:29:05 AM
BTW: does anyone have the other recordings (='Sweet Georgia Brown'??) including Colin Melander as bass player to Tony Sheridan??

Best!! ;)

Xosé

Have you already found it? It must be somewhere on the hdd over here.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on July 02, 2010, 08:30:11 AM

Why do we take for sure that the 22-24 June 1961 recordings with Tony Sheridan at Friedrich Ebert Halle were done with the 500/1??

Xosé

Why not? It is widely documented that Paul got his Hofner in April 1961.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on July 02, 2010, 09:40:33 AM
Have you already found it? It must be somewhere on the hdd over here.

No I haven't. Any clues?? ???

Why not? It is widely documented that Paul got his Hofner in April 1961.

Well. The most detailed description is at Andy Babiuk, Beatles gear, San Francisco, Backbeat, 2001, p. 49. What is clear, is that the instrument was purchased during their 2nd trip to Hamburg (=29 March - 2 July 1961, according to Eric Krasker), but the exact date is not known...

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on July 02, 2010, 12:05:44 PM
Andy Babiuk, Beatles gear, San Francisco, Backbeat, 2001, p. 49:

"...'Stu lent me his bass for a week or so', remembers McCartney...'Eventually I found a nice little shop in the centre of Hamburg, near a big department store...I saw this bass in the window, this violin-shaped bass, the Hofner...So I bought it, and I think it was only about £30'.
It was on the second floor of the Steinway shop in the centre of Hamburg that McCartney found the solution to his problem:a German-made Hofner 500/1 bass...Günter Höper was one of six salesmen at Steinway at the time. 'Paul McCartney bought his Hofner bass from me...As usual in those days, he bought it in instalments. We offered a ten-payment deal, and so we had to set up a contract, for which we needed his passport number. However, Paul had left his passport at the Top Ten club, so I went with him to the club to get the passport and do the deal'. Höper says the price of the bass was 287 Deutschmarks..."


The "... second floor of the Steinway shop in the centre of Hamburg..." was the same as the "...nice little shop in the centre of Hamburg, near a big department store.."?? :shock:

The Beatles arrived in Hamburg on 29 April 1961 and stayed there until 2 July. On 22-23 June they had the recording sessions for Polydor. When DID McCartney buy the 500/1?? :shock:

McCartney had seen AT LEAST one 500/1 by those days, Colin Crawley's -aka Colin Melander-, bass player to Tony Sheridan & The Jets...

(http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/2918/colinmelandervioln.jpg) (http://img816.imageshack.us/i/colinmelandervioln.jpg/)

(http://www.beatlesource.com/savage/1960/60.XX.XX%20various%20-%20ringo/10x.jpg)

"...According to an article by musician Iain Hines, which accompanied this photo in a January 1965 issue of 16 Magazine, this photo was taken the night Paul and Pete were arrested by the Hamburg police for the infamous fire incident. Hines claims this band was hastely thrown together to fill The Beatles' spot..."

...as well as some other basses, as Stu's 500/5 stringed lefty...

(http://www.lilypix.com/photos/data/ab233b682ec355648e7891e66c54191b/2179_p46996.jpg)

...The Jets' Framus Star Bass...

(http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/4711/thejets1960.jpg) (http://img96.imageshack.us/i/thejets1960.jpg/)

The Jets at The Top Ten Club, Hamburg, July 1960. The front line left to right: Pete Wharton (bass), Colin Melander (guitar), Tony Sheridan (guitar), Rick Hardy (guitar).

...and even Top Ten's Double Bass, purchased for the club by Peter Eckhorn:

(http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/2546/toptendoublebass.jpg) (http://img813.imageshack.us/i/toptendoublebass.jpg/)

Tony Sheridan & The Jets at Top Ten in 1961

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on July 02, 2010, 11:21:55 PM
Backing to the thread's topic: when The Beatles arrive in Hamburg on 16 August 1960 to perform at the Indra, there were the following English bands playing there:

- Two at the Top Ten, whose line-ups were:

a) for The Jets, Jimmy Ward on drums and vocals, Iain Hines on keyboards, Chas Beaumont on guitar, Colin Crawley -aka Colin Melander- on bass and Rick Hardy on guitar

b) for the Tony Sheridan Trio, Peter Wharton on bass, Ingo Thomas on drums -replaced shortly afterwards by Tony Cavanaugh- and Tony Sheridan on guitar and vocals.

These two bands emaned from the divison of The Jets, when Peter Eckhorn decided -by end July 1960- that he wanted a programme of non-stop music at the Top Ten in order to improve the club's drawing power. It should be remembered that The Jets were the first English band to play in Hamburg, when they arrived on 5 June 1960 to play at the Kaiserkeller. The line-up was Rick Hardy, Colin Crawley, Peter Wharton, Jimmy Ward and Tony Sheridan. The following photo shows this line-up:

(http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/4711/thejets1960.jpg) (http://img96.imageshack.us/i/thejets1960.jpg/)

The Jets at The Top Ten Club, Hamburg, July 1960. The front line left to right: Pete Wharton (bass), Colin Melander (guitar), Tony Sheridan (guitar), Rick Hardy (guitar).

- One at the Kaiserkeller, Derry & The Seniors (=the first Liverpool band to play in Hamburg), whose line-up was Howie Casey (saxophone), Derry Wilkie (vocals), Jeff Wallington (drums), Billy Hughes (rhythm guitar/vocals), Brian Griffiths (lead guitar) and Phil Whitehead (bass). The following photos, dated 10 May 1960 at Wyvern Club in Liverpool, show this line-up:

(http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/4131/derrytheseniorsi.jpg) (http://img215.imageshack.us/i/derrytheseniorsi.jpg/)

(http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/4514/derrytheseniorsii.jpg) (http://img340.imageshack.us/i/derrytheseniorsii.jpg/)

So, a Framus Star Bass at the Top Ten and a... Kay??(=this guitar is still unidentified!!) bass or guitar_converted_to_a_bass at the Kaiserkeller.

Some time after, Peter Eckhorn purchased a Double Bass for the Top Ten, and Colin Crawley got a Höfner 500/1:

(http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/2546/toptendoublebass.jpg) (http://img813.imageshack.us/i/toptendoublebass.jpg/)

(http://www.beatlesource.com/savage/1960/60.XX.XX%20various%20-%20ringo/10x.jpg)

(http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/2918/colinmelandervioln.jpg) (http://img816.imageshack.us/i/colinmelandervioln.jpg/)

(http://www.beatlesource.com/savage/1962/62.01.XX%20top%20ten%20-%20ringo/03.jpg)

This is -aproximately- the 'bass sound' The Beatles found in Hamburg on August 1960...

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on July 03, 2010, 01:31:46 PM
Tony Sheridan, Tokyo Beatles Fan Club Magazine, 19 (1998), (=apud Eric Krasker, The Beatles. Fact and Fiction. 1960-1962 , Biarritz, Séguier, 2009, p. 159):

"...Tony Sheridan explain why listening to 'Sweet Georgia Brown' really gives that impression: 'He [McCartney] sounds like a double bass, 'cause I told him to play like theat. I didn't like the new idea of Fender guitar bass. When I first heard Elvis singing 'Jailhouse Rock', that was the first time I heard the electric bass and I didn't like that. Before that, Elvis had always that big bass. I still think the big bass is the best, it has more sound. So I asked Paul to always play as deep (deep notes) as posible, and to play like a big bass player. He's a very good musician, you know, so when he started playing bass guitar, he played like a bass player, not like a guitar player..."

The Jets arrive in Hamburg with a Framus Star Bass on 5 June 1960:

(http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/4711/thejets1960.jpg) (http://img96.imageshack.us/i/thejets1960.jpg/)

On 30 June, their contract with Bruno Koschmider to play at the Kaiserkeller was extended for a further four weeks, but they only performed until 6 July, as Peter Eckhorn offered them to play at his new club, the Top Ten, offering them a wage increase of 5 Deutschemarks per day and per person, including superior lodgings in the building's attic. The opening took place on Saturday 9 July 1960, and soon afterwards a Double Bass was purchased by Peter Eckhorn for the club:

(http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/6126/50465641.jpg) (http://img194.imageshack.us/i/50465641.jpg/)

(http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/3575/52158958.jpg) (http://img19.imageshack.us/i/52158958.jpg/)

(http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/6132/98921335.jpg) (http://img339.imageshack.us/i/98921335.jpg/)

IMHO, Sheridan's requirements to Eckhorn are behind that Double Bass purchase, and so are behind McCartney's earliest bass sound (=at least behind McCartney's bass sound on some songs, like 'Sweet Georgia Brown' for example...)

But, have a look at Wharton's index finger in his right hand. What does he have?? Exactly: plaster. As you all know, I have been playing both bass & Double Bass for years, and I can assure you that plucking Double Bass strings is not the same as plucking -even although you pluck the strings without a pick- bass strings.

But another fact should be stressed. Have a look at at Wharton Double Bass at the photos. You will notice a 'fat' 4th string. Why?? Because it is a GUT string. At those days, 4th Double Bass strings were still made out of gut. Metal ones got common only at end sixties - beginning seventies in Europe, and this is a very interesting feature, because that string sounded different.

Incidentally, that problem with the bottom string at bowed bass instruments was ALREADY a problem for those who can be considered the most innovative musicians in the XVIIth. Century: the musicians at the service of the Duke of Medici in Florencia by mid-1680's:

(http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/8518/gabbiani.jpg) (http://img43.imageshack.us/i/gabbiani.jpg/)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on July 05, 2010, 07:58:41 AM
Ah! Excellent research. It is very well possible that Sheridan asked Peter Eckhorn to purchase a standing bass as he was quite the star in those days. Plus he may have advised Paul on his early sound. If you want to ask Tony: he can easily be reached by his secretary aka his wife. ha2ha  I may have an email address somewhere.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on July 05, 2010, 08:39:10 AM
Ah! Excellent research. It is very well possible that Sheridan asked Peter Eckhorn to purchase a standing bass as he was quite the star in those days. Plus he may have advised Paul on his early sound. If you want to ask Tony: he can easily be reached by his secretary aka his wife. ha2ha  I may have an email address somewhere.

Thank you Bobber!! ;)

Questions to Tony Sheridan are on the way now...

And now the question is: see the botom right side at the two Double Bass photos. Why are those Watkins & Elpico amps (=Sutcliffe's & McCartney's??) at the Top Ten by then?? (=before 18 November 1960...)  ;D

Best!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on July 05, 2010, 11:49:15 AM
Private interview with an -by the moment- anonimous witness of those days (=after April 1961), at Merseyside and Manchester, being a musician himself from Manchester:

"...Pete Best was I thought very good indeed, one of the best i had heard with local bands. Clem Cattini and Carlo Little were the top session and touring guys at the time.( search on them for some fabulous history). Pete Best was always surrounded by girls and didn't quite fit in with the other three, although musically they were so magnetic and together. Our drummer...used to reckon Rory Storm's drummer was the best in Liverpool that he had heard. This was after a gig at new Brighton Tower ballroom for a guy named Sammy Leach. The drummer in question of course was Ringo...

...Your Photo [McCartney at The Casbah with his Rosetti Solid 7 converted to a three string bass by means of three 'borrowed' piano strings] is of the much earlier Beatles with combed back hair. The ones I knew were very "Beatnik" in appearance with all black clothes, longish combed forward hair, knee length leather flying boots for Paul( I think). They were quite Liverpool underground and had their own band of followers who were very proud of their own band and liked no one else. The strange thing was until 1962 nobody outside Liverpool liked the Beatles because they did not play covers or copy stars of the day. Their big numbers were Money, Hippy Shake, Mr Moonlight, If you gotta make a fool of somebody etc etc. These were not popular amongst young dancers and jivers. At Southport Floral hall The Beatles died a death with a "dirty" sound from poor quality gear. In the Cavern and iron Door they were magic and filled every venue in liverpool that they played...

...Those numbers were done by quite a few bands but only in Liverpool. They were not pop stuff like Paul Anka, Marty Wilde, Cliff Richard etc. and thus only appealed to a minority audience, mainly art student types who were Beatle type fans. Liverpool groups did Bo Diddley, Chan Romero, Arthur Alexander, Chuck Berry, Larry Williams, as well as other lesser known but good USA artists.

Don't know about the gear at Southport. I only remember a Selmer red and white Truvoice bass amp for Paul with a black painted extension speaker [the 'coffin' made by Adrian Barber].

Most groups had their own fans who would travel anywhere in Liverpool to see their"own" band. King Size Taylor and the Dominoes, Derry Wilkie and the Seniors, The Remo Four, Faron's Flamingoes etc all had a great following of fans, However the King of Merseyside until the Beatles was Rory Storm and the Hurricanes. A great showman but he missed out on the boom times...

...I would describe the Beatles sound as a "dirty" sound; a very full sound with no rhythm guitar but a sort of double guitar part from John and George. The bass sound from the 500/1 was poor and too thin. the equipment was only basic as were most bands those days. I have never liked the 500/1 sound. I prefer the 500/5 with a lot more power and bass.

What cannot be denied though is the absolute electricity generated by their playing. I had never heard a group before that made my hair stand on end. They were incredibly exciting and alive. The only other band to do that was Screaming Lrd Stch's Savages - brilliant..."


Excellent, excellent, excellent!!  ;D

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on July 08, 2010, 11:00:18 AM
Private interview with an -by the moment- anonimous witness of those days (=after April 1961), at Merseyside and Manchester, being a musician himself from Manchester:

"...Let's make one thing very clear.. There was [at those days] a huge divide between Liverpool and Manchester bands, a bit like football of today. Bands from either city were not popular in the other city...

...Liverpool bands were very rough and ready with a sound all of their own making and did lots of lesser known songs. Manchester bands were a lot cleaner sound and copied stars very well indeed...

...Manchester bass and liverpool bass - the same thing really except the manchester copy bands would often play like Jet Harris of the Shadows or other famous bands of then day. Liverpool bands tended to make their own riffs and play basic stuff which fitted the music.

Manchester bands usually had better gear. I don't know why but manchester paid better money in those days for bands. Geographically speaking Liverpool was more isolated from the road newtwork in the late fifties and early sixties. Thus the touring bands would find it easier to play Manchester than L'pool. The Free Trade Hall in manc. was a huge gig at the time...."


Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on July 14, 2010, 09:13:24 PM
Quote from: Xosé
From an interview with John Byrne -aka Johnny Guitar-, guitar player with Rory Storm & The Hurricanes:

"...Question. And I know you were the first Liverpool band to have an electric bass guitar.

Answer from Johnny Bryne Guitar. How that came about was.... we'd been using teachest bass but skiffle was going out. So, to play rock and roll you need the instruments and in Liverpool in 1958 all you had were Hofner guitars - which were great but they weren't rock and roll guitars. So I bought an Antoria in Rushworths for 29 quid. Everyone laughed at it when they first saw it. It was a Japanese import and it looked like a plank of wood, it was the first one in Liverpool. But I hadn't thought on that you needed a bloody amplifier to go with it. Nobody had amplifiers. So the first amplifier I used was a wooden box with a small valve amplifier and a speaker out of a cinema on West Derby Road. So I used that. Ringo had by now got a full kit together. We had a lead guitarist with a Hofner Club 40, but we were still using a tea chest bass. But Rory had met this woman who said her son had bought a Framus Star Bass, and she was making him take it back because it was too much. So me and Rory arranged to meet her at Hessy's were we bought it off him for 24 quid. No one knew what to do with it because there were no bass amps. In 1958/59 amps were just coming into the shops and they had Vox which were scarce and expensive and another firm called Selmer. So we bought 3 Selmers. Plugged the bass into one of them and we were off as a rock and roll band. When we did Brand New Cadillac the other bands would come over and say the sound was fantastic..."


Another mistery solved...


Dave Lovelady, later the drummer with the Fourmost:
 
"...One night in St Luke's Hall was an absolute sensation. Wally [Walter Eymond] had got the first electric bass guitar in Liverpool. There was always a bass on the American records but we had never seen one. The groups crowded round in amazement and the deep, booming sound when they opened with 'Brand New Cadillac' was tremendous..."

Full article here... (http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/obituary-johnny-guitar-1113737.html)

Now, next question is: when was that gig at St Luke's Hall (=Crosby)??  ???

Best!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on July 15, 2010, 08:42:10 AM
So, you're looking for the date of the gig done by Rory Storm and the Hurricanes, somewhere probably around 1959 in St Luke's Hall? Does St Luke's Hall still exist and/or do they have a log or something?
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on July 15, 2010, 12:26:58 PM
Yes: that would be THE finding.

I don't know if St Luke's Hall still exists...

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on July 15, 2010, 12:45:35 PM
According to Ringo Starr in the Anthology book, he got his first kit (=an Ajax, similar to a Ludwig Silver Pearl) in Hessy's on Summer 1958. After that he joined Rory Storm & The Hurricanes. So..., when did Ringo really join RS&TH??  ???

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on July 16, 2010, 03:09:30 PM
Quote from: Xosé
...when did Ringo join RS&TH??...


I think I have found it. Bill Harry, 'While My Guitar Gently Weeps. The Tragic Story of Rory Storm & the Hurricanes' (http://triumphpc.com/mersey-beat/a-z/rorystorm-hurricanes2.shtml)

"...By this time Rory had met Ritchie Starkey at a talent contest called '6.5 Special.' Ritchie had left the Eddie Clayton Skiffle Group and was playing with the Darktown Skiffle. Rory told him that he was looking for a drummer. Ritchie was interested in joining them and first appeared with the group on March 25 1959 at the Mardi Gras in Mount Pleasant..."

But there is something which puzzles me. On this page (http://triumphpc.com/mersey-beat/a-z/rorystorm-hurricanes2.shtml) Bill Harry says:

"...In January 1959 he changed the name of the group to the Raving Texans and their line-up comprised Al Caldwell (guitar/vocals), Johnny Byrne (guitar/vocals), Paul Murphy (guitar/vocals), Reg Hales (washboard) and Jeff Truman (tea-chest bass). Spud Ward, a former member of the Swinging Bluegenes, took over from Truman on bass guitar and the group continued as the Raving Texans until July 1959..."

But on this one: (http://triumphpc.com/mersey-beat/a-z/rorystorm-hurricanes3.shtml)

"...The line-up now [October 1959??] became Rory Storm (vocals), Johnny Byrne (rhythm guitar), Charles O'Brien (lead guitar), Wally Eymond (bass guitar/vocals) and Ritchie Starkey (drums)..."

And adds: (http://triumphpc.com/mersey-beat/a-z/rorystorm-hurricanes5.shtml)

"...Drummer Dave Lovelady of the Dominoes said, 'One night at St. Luke's Hall was an absolute sensation. Rory Storm came in with Wally, who had got the first bass in Liverpool. There was always a bass on American records, but we'd never seen one, and here was Wally with a Framus four-string bass guitar. The groups crowded round in amazement when they opened with 'Brand New Cadillac', this deep-booming sound was tremendous.'..."

So:

1) As we already knew, Walter Eymond had got the first bass in Liverpool (=a Framus Star Bass)

2) Walter Eymond joined RS&TH in [=October??] 1959 (=for Spud Ward)

3) Spud Ward joined RS&TH (=still named The Raving Texans) in January 1959

How could be Spud Ward A bass guitar player??  ???

Perhaps Bill Harry wanted really mean Double Bass. Here there is a photo of The Swinging Bluegenes, with Spud Ward on Double Bass, before joining RS&TH:

(http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/9928/genes7.jpg) (http://img805.imageshack.us/i/genes7.jpg/)

Any thoughts??  ???

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on July 17, 2010, 06:43:47 PM
Problem is that the history of the Beatles is more widely researched than that of Rory Storm. There's some info on him and the band but I doubt it will bring you any further:

http://www.dmbeatles.com/forums/index.php?topic=3546.20 (http://www.dmbeatles.com/forums/index.php?topic=3546.20)
http://www.merseybeatnostalgia.co.uk/html/rory_storm.html (http://www.merseybeatnostalgia.co.uk/html/rory_storm.html)
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on July 18, 2010, 10:40:39 AM
Thank you Bobber!!  ;)

Definitely, Spud Ward was a Double Bass player, not bass guitar player...

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on July 18, 2010, 10:43:48 AM
By those days (=beginning May 1960) not many Liverpool bands did have a bass guitar:

- Davey "Mushy" Cooper played his blonde Höfner 500/5 with The Bob's Vegas Five

- Walter Eymond played his Framus Star Bass with Rory Storm & THe Hurricanes

- Stuart Sutcliffe played his brunnette Höfner 500/5 with The Silver Beatles

- Malcom Linnell played his blonde Höfner 500/5 with Cliff Roberts & The Rockers

- Johnny Gustafson played his Hoyer_Soloist_converted_to_a_bass with Cass & The Cassanovas

- Les Chadwick played his Framus_Sorella_converted_to_a_bass (=with an extra pickup at the tailpiece!!!) with Gerry & The Pacemakers

- Phil Whitehead played his ...Kay??? with Derry & The Seniors. Was this instrument also a guitar converted to a bass??

At least two bass players (=perhaps three??) at the historical audition at Wyvern Club on 10 May 1960 had their regular guitars converted to a bass, i.e., 40% (=perhaps 60%??) of the total. No wonder that Paul McCartney did the same a few months after with his Solid 7...

Mo Foster, Seventeen Watts?, London, Sanctuary, 1997, pp. 93-94:

"...Often, in the enthusiasm of forming a band, there would be an excess of one instrument. This imbalance was solved during the skiffle period when four guitars would suddenly dwindle to three guitars as one player, so he imagined, was demoted to the lower rank of bass player. Everybody thought there had to be a bass although nobody actually knew what it did. The unfortunate player was usually chosen by default -either he knew the least number of chords, or he was last to join, or perhaps his personality dictated a desire to stand at the back...
...Somehow, somewhere, I'd heard the phrase 'Electric Bass Guitar'. It sounded longer and more important than just a guitar, and I liked it. Desperate for more information (even though my lack of funds would preclude such a purchase), I scanned the advertisements but they were not helpful. For example, 'The Hofner Bass Guitar': "Guitarists, double your income with the Hofner Bass Guitar. Tuned like a bass with the third, fourth, fifth and sixth strings of a guitar"...
...This confusing information led me to believe that to play the bass guitar you merely removed the top two strings of an ordinary guitar, and then in some way amplified it..."


Xosé

(http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/950/mushy.jpg) (http://img375.imageshack.us/i/mushy.jpg/)

(http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/9279/33062351.jpg) (http://img180.imageshack.us/i/33062351.jpg/)

(http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/2711/paulmccartneyzenithpick.jpg) (http://img19.imageshack.us/i/paulmccartneyzenithpick.jpg/)

(http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/3468/cliffrobertstherockersi.jpg) (http://img404.imageshack.us/i/cliffrobertstherockersi.jpg/)

(http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/3468/cliffrobertstherockersi.jpg) (http://img227.imageshack.us/i/cliffrobertstherockersi.jpg/)

(http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/549/01cassthecassanovas.jpg) (http://img697.imageshack.us/i/01cassthecassanovas.jpg/)

(http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/8255/gerrythepacemakers.jpg) (http://img709.imageshack.us/i/gerrythepacemakers.jpg/)

(http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/3777/gerrythepacemakersii.jpg) (http://img153.imageshack.us/i/gerrythepacemakersii.jpg/)

(http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/4131/derrytheseniorsi.jpg) (http://img215.imageshack.us/i/derrytheseniorsi.jpg/)

(http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/4514/derrytheseniorsii.jpg) (http://img340.imageshack.us/i/derrytheseniorsii.jpg/)
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on July 18, 2010, 10:48:15 AM
Liverpool Stadium, 3 May 1960.

John Lennon, Paul McCartney, George Harrison and Stu Sutcliffe were in the audience:

(http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/8424/poster3t.jpg) (http://img685.imageshack.us/i/poster3t.jpg/)

(http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/9605/postertw.jpg) (http://img97.imageshack.us/i/postertw.jpg/)

Gene Vincent (=who was the backing band??):

(http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/paulk58/7.jpg)
(http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/paulk58/8.jpg)
(http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/paulk58/9.jpg)

Rory Storm & The Hurricanes:

(http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/9279/33062351.jpg) (http://img180.imageshack.us/i/33062351.jpg/)

Cass & The Cassanovas:

(http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/5449/liverpoolstadium3may196.jpg) (http://img210.imageshack.us/i/liverpoolstadium3may196.jpg/)

Has anybody come across with more photos from that historical gig??  ???

Thanks in advance and best wishes!!  ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on July 19, 2010, 07:01:40 PM
Quote from: Xosé
...From an interview with John Byrne -aka Johnny Guitar-, guitar player with Rory Storm & The Hurricanes:

"...But Rory had met this woman who said her son had bought a Framus Star Bass, and she was making him take it back because it was too much. So me and Rory arranged to meet her at Hessy's were we bought it off him for 24 quid..."

From Johnny 'Guitar' Byrne's diaries, under August 1959:

"...August 10. Went to see Mrs. Woods about electric bass but she wanted £9, so I dropped the idea.
August 13. Went to Mrs. Woods about bass. We gave her £5. She signs it over to us tomorrow..."


Another mistery solved... 8)

I wonder who was Mrs. Woods' son...  :roll:

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: cubanheel on July 20, 2010, 12:42:59 PM
Who's the 'Davy Jones' mentioned in the posters, obviously not the pint-sized cutie from the Monkees????
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on July 20, 2010, 02:58:38 PM
Who's the 'Davy Jones' mentioned in the posters, obviously not the pint-sized cutie from the Monkees????


(http://www.beatlesource.com/savage/1961/61.11.24%20tower/05.jpg)
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on July 20, 2010, 02:59:26 PM
By the way Xose, I remember Astrid Kirchherr's picture book contains a lot of pictures of other Liverpool bands. I'll have a look if they're portraited with their bassguitars.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on July 20, 2010, 03:40:42 PM
By the way Xose, I remember Astrid Kirchherr's picture book contains a lot of pictures of other Liverpool bands. I'll have a look if they're portraited with their bassguitars.

Oh yes please!!  ;) I don't have that book...  :(

BTW: do you have pictures of other groups on 3 May 1960 at Liverpool Stadium??  ???

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on July 20, 2010, 09:31:36 PM
Mo Foster, Seventeen Watts?, London, Sanctuary, 1997, p. 90:

"...In 1958, by a twist of fate, The Chas McDevitt Group replaced US rock 'n' roll star, Jerry Lee Lewis on a nationwide tour (there had been moral indignation at Jerry arriving on this country with 13-year-old bride-to-be). On that same package was a black American vocal group, The Treniers, who had already successfully appeared in films. More significantly, their bass player played a bass guitar: this was the first time The McDevitt Group had ever seen one, and it prompted them to invest in the only available to them at the time: a Framus. At first, no one in Chas's group had a clue how to play the communal bass but Shirley Douglas, by default, became the bass player because she was the only member of the band who could sing and play it at the same time..."

Any video/photo of Chas McDevitt Group displaying Shirley playing her Framus Star Bass??  ???

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on July 20, 2010, 09:51:18 PM
You can send an e-mail to Chas from here: http://www.chasmcdevitt.com/cmc_contact.php (http://www.chasmcdevitt.com/cmc_contact.php)

There's some pictures on his website, but none showing a bassguitar in the late 50s.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on July 20, 2010, 09:53:32 PM
You can send an e-mail to Chas from here: [url]http://www.chasmcdevitt.com/cmc_contact.php[/url] ([url]http://www.chasmcdevitt.com/cmc_contact.php[/url])

There's some pictures on his website, but none showing a bassguitar in the late 50s.


Thank you Bobber!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on July 21, 2010, 07:47:38 AM
Quote from: Xosé
Tony Sheridan, Tokyo Beatles Fan Club Magazine, 19 (1998), (=apud Eric Krasker, The Beatles. Fact and Fiction. 1960-1962 , Biarritz, Séguier, 2009, p. 159):

"...Tony Sheridan explain why listening to 'Sweet Georgia Brown' really gives that impression: 'He [McCartney] sounds like a double bass, 'cause I told him to play like theat. I didn't like the new idea of Fender guitar bass. When I first heard Elvis singing 'Jailhouse Rock', that was the first time I heard the electric bass and I didn't like that. Before that, Elvis had always that big bass. I still think the big bass is the best, it has more sound. So I asked Paul to always play as deep (deep notes) as posible, and to play like a big bass player..."


(http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/9852/08180535.jpg) (http://img269.imageshack.us/i/08180535.jpg/)

(http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/3950/bmb3.jpg) (http://img827.imageshack.us/i/bmb3.jpg/)

(http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/5351/radiorecrdrs.jpg) (http://img202.imageshack.us/i/radiorecrdrs.jpg/)

(http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/9451/kaymaestro1.jpg) (http://img256.imageshack.us/i/kaymaestro1.jpg/)

(http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/3050/bbbass.jpg) (http://img6.imageshack.us/i/bbbass.jpg/)

 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uzC5KC_260#normal)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: cubanheel on July 21, 2010, 08:11:37 AM
Thanks for pic, Bobber; John looks knackered in that one!
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on July 21, 2010, 08:15:01 AM
Thanks for pic, Bobber; John looks knackered in that one!

What I was trying to point out is that Davey Jones is just Paul in disguise. ha2ha
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: peterbell1 on July 21, 2010, 01:20:25 PM
Liverpool Stadium, 3 May 1960.

Gene Vincent (=who was the backing band??):

([url]http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/paulk58/7.jpg[/url])
([url]http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/paulk58/8.jpg[/url])
([url]http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/paulk58/9.jpg[/url])



Gene Vincent toured the UK a few times in 1960 using a British backing band called "The Beat Boys" who had Georgie Fame on piano (before he got famous in his own right).

(http://www.roganhouse.co.uk/images/Beat-Boys-early-60n.jpg)

According to this page ...
http://www.roganhouse.co.uk/rh_gal071203p.html (http://www.roganhouse.co.uk/rh_gal071203p.html)
... the line-up was Red Reece (drums), Georgie Fame (piano), Ray McVay (saxophone), Vince Cooze (bass) and Colin Green (guitar).

Only a couple of weeks before that Liverpool gig on 3rd May, Gene Vincent had been in a car crash - the crash that killed Eddie Cochran - but Gene refused to cancel his tour.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: peterbell1 on July 21, 2010, 01:49:47 PM
Gene Vincent toured the UK a few times in 1960 using a British backing band called "The Beat Boys" who had Georgie Fame on piano (before he got famous in his own right).

([url]http://www.roganhouse.co.uk/images/Beat-Boys-early-60n.jpg[/url])

According to this page ...
[url]http://www.roganhouse.co.uk/rh_gal071203p.html[/url] ([url]http://www.roganhouse.co.uk/rh_gal071203p.html[/url])
... the line-up was Red Reece (drums), Georgie Fame (piano), Ray McVay (saxophone), Vince Cooze (bass) and Colin Green (guitar).



I just searched for The Beat Boys and found this site ....
http://www.myspace.com/beatboys65 (http://www.myspace.com/beatboys65)
... which has a different line-up for the band in 1960. It looks like Georgie Fame left them in late 1959, so that band with Gene Vincent isn't The Beat Boys after all (it is definitely Georgie Fame in that picture with Gene Vincent).
Georgie Fame was based in London by 1960 so it must have been a London band. (The Beat Boys were based in Lancashire.)
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on July 21, 2010, 04:49:47 PM
Thanks Peter!! ;)

Let's go on search to find out that band...

Best!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on July 21, 2010, 09:33:03 PM
Found this old picture of Gene Vincent and his Blue Caps. Is that a bassguitar on the left?

(http://www.history-of-rock.com/bcaps.jpg)
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on July 21, 2010, 09:40:28 PM
It seems that Gene was also backed by what became Sounds Incorporated later. SI joined the Beatles on their 1965 tour of the USA.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on July 22, 2010, 08:44:00 AM
By the way Xose, I remember Astrid Kirchherr's picture book contains a lot of pictures of other Liverpool bands. I'll have a look if they're portraited with their bassguitars.

There's a bassguitar hanging on the wall in the picture of Hessy's shop.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on July 22, 2010, 09:10:51 AM
Liverpool musicians, spring 1964. There's Rory Storm in the centre. Picture by Astrid Kirchherr and/or Max Scheller.

(http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/9717/scannen0005f.jpg)
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on July 22, 2010, 09:48:34 AM
Quote from: Bobber
Found this old picture of Gene Vincent and his Blue Caps. Is that a bassguitar on the left?

([url]http://www.history-of-rock.com/bcaps.jpg[/url])


Yes: a Fender Precision one, 1st generation...

Quote from: Bobber
There's a bassguitar hanging on the wall in the picture of Hessy's shop.


Could I have a look at that photo??

Thanks in advance!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on July 22, 2010, 09:55:50 AM
Here: http://www.dmbeatles.com/forums/index.php?topic=8640.msg206688#msg206688 (http://www.dmbeatles.com/forums/index.php?topic=8640.msg206688#msg206688)    ;D
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on July 22, 2010, 10:39:33 AM
Thank you!! ;)

Where are the basses??  ???

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on July 22, 2010, 10:56:36 AM
Thank you!! ;)

Where are the basses??  ???

Xosé


(http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/1131/hessy.jpg)
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on July 22, 2010, 11:23:21 AM
Yes. It looks like a Framus Star Bass...

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on July 22, 2010, 11:46:21 AM
I'm not sure. I have the original picture in Astrid's book. The logo looks different.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on July 22, 2010, 08:05:14 PM
Quote from: Bobber
I'm not sure. I have the original picture in Astrid's book. The logo looks different.


The logo..., is not like this??  ???

(http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/8530/billwyman.jpg) (http://img121.imageshack.us/i/billwyman.jpg/)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on July 22, 2010, 08:40:33 PM
Yes, on second thoughts I think it is. There is another picture of the window shop which, I think, shows another bassguitar. I'll try to scan it tomorrow.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on July 22, 2010, 08:46:27 PM
Quote from: Bobber
Yes, on second thoughts I think it is. There is another picture of the window shop which, I think, shows another bassguitar. I'll try to scan it tomorrow...


Excellent, Bobber... Thank you very much!! ;)

Meanwhile, I'm bringing a small -but very cherished- piece of my own history as Höfner bass player.

As you know, these photos are dated Summer 1978:

(http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/6159/beatlesattheporcoport1x.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/beatlesattheporcoport1x.jpg/1/w640.png) (http://g.imageshack.us/img13/beatlesattheporcoport1x.jpg/1/)

(http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/7760/beatlesattheporcoport2x.jpg) (http://img24.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beatlesattheporcoport2x.jpg)
(http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/beatlesattheporcoport2x.jpg/1/w640.png) (http://g.imageshack.us/img24/beatlesattheporcoport2x.jpg/1/)

But before getting the bass I'm playing at those photos (=something which happened around February that year), I had got another 'piece of Höfner bass' in 1977:

(http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/5305/micuerdahfner.jpg) (http://img155.imageshack.us/i/micuerdahfner.jpg/)

A 4th Höfner bass string, that I purchased at a local music shop in La Coruña (=my native city), that I was intending to put into my old Spanish guitar (=something which never worked out) and that I still keep.

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on July 22, 2010, 09:04:44 PM
My old Höfner 4th bass string together with my old Spanish guitar, i.e., the very one the string was intended for...

(http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/1051/espaolaconcuerdahfnerii.jpg) (http://img31.imageshack.us/i/espaolaconcuerdahfnerii.jpg/)

(http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/228/espaolaconcuerdahfner.jpg) (http://img204.imageshack.us/i/espaolaconcuerdahfner.jpg/)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on July 23, 2010, 10:32:41 AM
Yes, on second thoughts I think it is. There is another picture of the window shop which, I think, shows another bassguitar. I'll try to scan it tomorrow.


(http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/5404/scannen0006.jpg)
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on August 09, 2010, 11:28:00 AM
By those days (=beginning May 1960) not many Liverpool bands did have a bass guitar:

- Davey "Mushy" Cooper played his blonde Höfner 500/5 with The Bob's Vegas Five

- Walter Eymond played his Framus Star Bass with Rory Storm & THe Hurricanes

- Stuart Sutcliffe played his brunnette Höfner 500/5 with The Silver Beatles

- Malcom Linnell played his blonde Höfner 500/5 with Cliff Roberts & The Rockers

- Johnny Gustafson played his Hoyer_Soloist_converted_to_a_bass with Cass & The Cassanovas

- Les Chadwick played his Framus_Sorella_converted_to_a_bass (=with an extra pickup at the tailpiece!!!) with Gerry & The Pacemakers

- Phil Whitehead played his ...Kay??? with Derry & The Seniors. Was this instrument also a guitar converted to a bass??

At least two bass players (=perhaps three??) at the historical audition at Wyvern Club on 10 May 1960 had their regular guitars converted to a bass, i.e., 40% (=perhaps 60%??) of the total. No wonder that Paul McCartney did the same a few months after with his Solid 7...

Mo Foster, Seventeen Watts?, London, Sanctuary, 1997, pp. 93-94:

"...Often, in the enthusiasm of forming a band, there would be an excess of one instrument. This imbalance was solved during the skiffle period when four guitars would suddenly dwindle to three guitars as one player, so he imagined, was demoted to the lower rank of bass player. Everybody thought there had to be a bass although nobody actually knew what it did. The unfortunate player was usually chosen by default -either he knew the least number of chords, or he was last to join, or perhaps his personality dictated a desire to stand at the back...
...Somehow, somewhere, I'd heard the phrase 'Electric Bass Guitar'. It sounded longer and more important than just a guitar, and I liked it. Desperate for more information (even though my lack of funds would preclude such a purchase), I scanned the advertisements but they were not helpful. For example, 'The Hofner Bass Guitar': "Guitarists, double your income with the Hofner Bass Guitar. Tuned like a bass with the third, fourth, fifth and sixth strings of a guitar"...
...This confusing information led me to believe that to play the bass guitar you merely removed the top two strings of an ordinary guitar, and then in some way amplified it..."


Xosé

([url]http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/950/mushy.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://img375.imageshack.us/i/mushy.jpg/[/url])

([url]http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/9279/33062351.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://img180.imageshack.us/i/33062351.jpg/[/url])

([url]http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/2711/paulmccartneyzenithpick.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://img19.imageshack.us/i/paulmccartneyzenithpick.jpg/[/url])

([url]http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/3468/cliffrobertstherockersi.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://img404.imageshack.us/i/cliffrobertstherockersi.jpg/[/url])

([url]http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/3468/cliffrobertstherockersi.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://img227.imageshack.us/i/cliffrobertstherockersi.jpg/[/url])

([url]http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/549/01cassthecassanovas.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://img697.imageshack.us/i/01cassthecassanovas.jpg/[/url])

([url]http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/8255/gerrythepacemakers.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://img709.imageshack.us/i/gerrythepacemakers.jpg/[/url])

([url]http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/3777/gerrythepacemakersii.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://img153.imageshack.us/i/gerrythepacemakersii.jpg/[/url])

([url]http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/4131/derrytheseniorsi.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://img215.imageshack.us/i/derrytheseniorsi.jpg/[/url])

([url]http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/4514/derrytheseniorsii.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://img340.imageshack.us/i/derrytheseniorsii.jpg/[/url])


Howie Casey has sent an email today. He says that the guitar player at those Derry & The Seniors photos is Brian Griffiths (=Paul Whitehead didn't join The Seniors until after the band had returned from Hamburg, by 1 October 1960), the guitar he is playing was home made by his brother, Bill Griffiths, and he was playing bass lines with it...

This confirms that on beginning 1960 Sutcliffe was one of the few musicians in Liverpool (=perhaps only four??) owning a true bass guitar...

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on August 09, 2010, 01:38:43 PM
Quote from: Xosé
...Now, another picture surfaces:

Peter Stone, "An interview with The Beatles' Chas Newby", Beatlology Magazine (September/October 2007), pp. 8-13:

"...CN:...And funny enough, that's exactly the same as Red Sails In The Sunset. I can remember, even Paul must have, I guess, been listening for the bass line that he wanted in a particular song. And, I can remember him playing it, because bear in mind we were both left-handed and so we had a certain affinity. But I can remember him playing it on his guitar and then showing me the notes that he wanted me to play for Red Sails In The Sunset and Hallelujah, I Love Her So. But with all the others, there wasn't that sort of problem, because they were basically... 12-bar blues and just play the bass line like a boogie-woogie, like a left-hand on a piano.

P.S.: It's intriguing that Paul was interested, even back then, in the bass lines.

CN: All I'm saying is that he was the one who told me what he wanted to hear. Whether it was just the bass line or whether he told the others what he wanted to hear, I don't know. I'm not aware of that. But, he was the one in those two particular songs. He made sure that I knew what it was he wanted..."


The interview is very interesting and full of very good info about those historical days at the end of December 1960. But what we can conclude from Chas Newby words is that Paul McCartney was playing bass lines with his Solid 7 at those days, and he was VERY sure of the bass lines he wanted for -at least some- group songs...

Now, I think McCartney could have his Solid 7 converted to a bass_with_three_piano_strings_plus_a_Fuma_type_guitar_&_cable while in Hamburg because:

a) That gear (=Fuma type pickup + cable), being German made, was available in Hamburg but perhaps not in Liverpool

b) Cfr. David Bedford, Liddypool. Birthplace of The Beatles, Deerfield, Dalton Watson Fine Books, 2009, pp. 147-148 (=interview to Faron Ruffley):

"...[Q]: Tell me your memories of The Beatles' Litherland Town Hall appearance.

[A]:...I'll never forget that night at Litherland after they returned [from Hamburg]. I was chatting to the girls at the back of the hall. Bob announces 'Direct from Hamburg, The Beatles' and they started with 'Long Tall Sally' which Paul sang. I'll never forget it, it was so loud and piercing, and then they belted the song out. The crowd went wild, and the girls ran from the back of the hall to the stage, leaving me on my own. They started screaming -I'd never seen it before; no one had.

I had my trademark white suit and these lads were scruffy. Paul had a brown tweed jacket; they all had smelly leathers with fur trim and they did stink. John had ripped jeans. They were a right mess, Paul had a red guitar with three strings on it, and it wasn't even plugged in. John hit his amp with a hammer to get it going. What on earth was going on?

They were different. Paul sang 'Oh My Soul' and 'Long Tall Sally', and then John would do Gene Vincent's 'Dance in the Street' and George would do 'Everybody's Trying To Be My Baby' and then they would all do 'Searching' together. No other groups do this. There would be one singer and backing singers, but they had three of them doing solos and then singing three-part harmonies together. However, I then made my famous quote: 'They'll never last'. How wrong was I? I say that the world never saw the real Beatles, the greatest rock 'n' roll band ever known...".


Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on August 10, 2010, 08:37:30 AM
That would be odd though, knowing that Stuart and his bassguitar were still around in Hamburg and they had asked Chas Newby especially to join them for those late December 1960 gigs.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on August 10, 2010, 11:39:26 AM
This is the póster for The Casbah gig on Sunday, 17 December 1960:

(http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/9797/pstercasbah1xii60.jpg) (http://img830.imageshack.us/i/pstercasbah1xii60.jpg/)

Lennon's passport bears an official stamp indicating that he left Germany on 10 December 1960 (=Harrison had left by 22 November, while McCartney & Best were deported on 1 December).

So, from 10 to 16 December they convinced Lennon-McCartney to join themselves again, recruiting Chas Newby, had at least two rehearsals, recovered all their gear, were offered to play four gigs, Newby borrowed a Hófner right-hand bass and Harrison wrote a letter to Sutcliffe dated 16 December and telling "...So how about coming home son! This hasn't been talked about with the others in the group, and is just my opinion..."

Isn't there anything strange here??  ???

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on August 10, 2010, 11:51:51 AM
One step further: the story goes that John didn't contact the others for days (a week?) after his return to Liverpool. George's letter could be an act of despiration to get the band back together. Another option is that the rehearsals with Chas and/or Paul on bass didn't go that well. But I agree that the time is really tight. I must say I find it strange that John stayed in Hamburg for another nine days after Paul and Pete were deported.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on August 10, 2010, 12:24:41 PM
Quote from: Bobber
One step further: the story goes that John didn't contact the others for days (a week?) after his return to Liverpool. George's letter could be an act of despiration to get the band back together. Another option is that the rehearsals with Chas and/or Paul on bass didn't go that well. But I agree that the time is really tight...

And remember Harrison words to Sutcliffe: "...Can't you, or won't you come home sooner, as if we get a new bass player for the time being, it will be crumby, as he will have to learn everything, and its no good with Paul playing bass, we've decided, that is if he had some kind of bass & amp to play on!..."

So, McCartney has neither bass, nor amp. BUT he had to use his Solid 7 as a bass, because if this were not the case..., why "...it's no good with Paul playing bass..."??


Quote from: Bobber
...I must say I find it strange that John stayed in Hamburg for another nine days after Paul and Pete were deported.

Eric Krasker explained this situation in his book: Lennon remained there, playing, until he had to leave Germany. The official stamp at his passport is a irrefutable source...

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on August 10, 2010, 12:28:14 PM
Eric Krasker explained this situation in his book: Lennon remained there, playing, until he had to leave Germany. The official stamp at his passport is a irrefutable source...

I know. But it makes the time even before their first gig in Liverpool plus the arrangements they had to make even shorter.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on August 10, 2010, 12:36:38 PM
Quote from: Bobber
I know. But it makes the time even before their first gig in Liverpool plus the arrangements they had to make even shorter.

Right... It's clear that the mistery is far from being solved...

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on August 11, 2010, 07:21:36 AM
On the gear for the 17th: I read that The Beatles used the gear of Earl Preston and the TT's that night, who shared the bill with them.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on August 11, 2010, 09:58:19 AM
On the gear for the 17th: I read that The Beatles used the gear of Earl Preston and the TT's that night, who shared the bill with them.

Aha... Well done Bobber!! ;)

Who were Earl Preston and the TT's?? Any photos and/or bio??  ???

Best!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on August 11, 2010, 10:21:12 AM
From Bill Harry's site:

July 9 1964

Earl PrestonEARL PRESTON – real name GEORGE SPRUCE - describes his career in his own words:

“I made my first public appearance at the age of 16 at Clubmoor Picture House. I was playing tea chest bass in a group who didn’t have a name. We were a bunch of lads who used to go around together.

“We used to practice all skiffle songs. I remember the first song I ever sang before an audience was at the Clubmoor and the number was ‘Oh Boy.’

“At this time I worked in Sayers (a Merseyside confectioners) and met fellow worker TONY WADDINGTON (who is now with THE PETE BEST FOUR). We got to talking and he invited me to his house where I heard him play guitar. I was knocked out by his playing!

“Tony then struck up a friendship with me and came and heard my group play. We entered a competition at the OPB and Tony came with us. In the competition we played ‘Bad Boy’, ‘Mean Woman Blues’ and ‘Living Doll.’ We came third in the contest and FARON won it!

“Tony asked me to form a group with him – THE COMETS. When I did join the group we changed the name to GENE DAY & THE DJANGO BEATS. I was with the group for 18 months and we used to play regularly at the Casbah and Lowlands.

“The group started to play more CHUCK BERRY numbers and thought that a lead vocalist wasn’t called for and asked me to leave.

“I left my full-time job and decided to go to sea – and went down to London. Unfortunately I couldn’t get a ship so I returned to Liverpool.

“One mid-day I happened to go down to the Cavern and got into conversation with BOB WOOLER. When he found that I wasn’t working with a group he placed me with the TT’s.

“The main venue in the early days of EARL PRESTON’s TT’s was, of course, Aintree Institute, where our main rivals were THE BEATLES.

“Time passed, we played many other venues – and then the Mersey Scene erupted due to THE BEATLES’ national success.

Earl Preston“Through BILL HARRY, we recorded for the Oriole album ‘This Is Mersey Beat,’ which entered the LP charts and soon after we signed a contract with Fontana.

“Bill took over the group for a brief period and handed us over to JIM IRELAND, my present manager.

“Due to rather different aims in music, rather than anything personal, the TT’s and myself split up, and I formed my present group, EARL PRESTON’S REALMS.

“After we had rehearsed for some time we signed with my original recording company – Fontana, and have our debut disc released this week.

“One of my main hobbies is songwriting, and I have already recorded some of my original compositions. I made my television debut on the AR-TV documentary ‘Beat City’, and hope that with my current disc I may have the opportunity of appearing in the major pop TV shows such as ‘Lucky Stars’, ‘Ready, Steady, Go!’ and ‘Scene At 6.30.’”


And here: http://www.oocities.com/fabgear6366/prestonearl.htm (http://www.oocities.com/fabgear6366/prestonearl.htm)


Videos:
Earl Preston & the TT's - "My Prayer" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyKYcxsAvf4#)
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on August 11, 2010, 10:29:11 AM
It seems they were also in the Beat City movie.

Remarkable: a left-handed bassplayer in that video...
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on August 11, 2010, 11:31:05 AM
Thank you Bobber!! ;)

I read somewher that on 17 December 1960 the band with The Beatles at The Casbah was Gene Day & The Jango (=sic) Beats...

Quote from: Bobber
...Remarkable: a left-handed bassplayer in that video...

Yes. And playing a Höfner solid, as far as I can see...

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: An Apple Beatle on August 11, 2010, 04:54:58 PM
Wow...cheers for the info...I sound engineered the TT's a few years back and had no idea. :)
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on August 11, 2010, 05:34:37 PM
Are you still in contact with them??  ???

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on August 12, 2010, 02:52:27 PM
Barry Miles, Beatles. In Their Own Words, London, Omnibus Pres, 1978, pp.10-11:

"...Then Stuart [Sutcliffe] left the group. He was the bass player. He lent me his bass, and I played bass for a few weeks. I used to play it upside down. And he used to have piano strings on it, because you couldn't get bass strings. They were a bit rare, you know, and they cost a lot, too, about £2 for one string. So he would cut these big lengths of piano strings from the piano and wind them on this guitar. So I played that upside down for a while..."

Andy Babiuk, Beatles gear, San Francisco, Backbeat Books, 2001, p. 46 (=quoting the same paragraph from Miles' book and trying to explain the -presumably- presence of piano strings on the Rosetti Solid 7):

"...McCartney got the idea from Sutcliffe: '...Stuart...lent me his bass, and I played bass for a few weeks...He used to have piano strings on it, because you couldn't get bass strings. They were a bit rare, you know, and they cost a lot too, about £2 for one string. So we would cut these big lengths of piano strings from the piano and wind them on the guitar..."

So..., which guitar was McCartney really referring to?? His Rosetti Solid 7, or Sutcliffe's Höfner 500/5 bass?? ???

A bit puzzling..., isn't it??

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on August 12, 2010, 06:06:29 PM
Sam Leach, The Birth of The Beatles, Gwynedd, Pharaoh, 1999, p. 49 (=about their debut at The Cassanova Club in Liverpool, in 1961, February the 11th...)

(http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/7207/samleach.jpg) (http://img24.imageshack.us/i/samleach.jpg/)

"...You're playing more of them than Paul does then..."

What was Sam Leach meaning?? Any thoughts??  ???

And that Sam Leach's gig was ONE DAY BEFORE these ones (=according to Chazz Avery datation):  ???

(http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/4697/1strosettipickup.jpg) (http://img444.imageshack.us/i/1strosettipickup.jpg/)

(http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/8198/41870459.jpg) (http://img191.imageshack.us/i/41870459.jpg/)

Any thoughts?? ???

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: An Apple Beatle on August 13, 2010, 10:09:25 AM
http://www.myspace.com/terryandthetts (http://www.myspace.com/terryandthetts) Terry still runs the site himself and is normally good at answering. I am not in much contact with him myself nowadays since I left the theatre job.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on August 13, 2010, 11:13:15 AM
Thank you very much An Apple Beatle!! ;)

I will send him an email...

Best!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: An Apple Beatle on August 13, 2010, 11:27:28 AM
No worries Xose, tell Terry that Rick the ex-sound engineer from Ryde theatre on the Isle of Wight sends his regards. ;) Shame that place has closed down now.

Continued best wishes on your research. :)
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on August 13, 2010, 01:03:04 PM
I'll do...

Thank you again!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on August 16, 2010, 01:41:14 PM
Quote from: Xosé
...McCartney seems to use his thumb over the fretboard much more than Lennon and Harrison...


Quote from: Maccaguy
...when Paul purchased his Solid 7, it had a pickguard and controls placed for a right handed guitarist. In order to get around hitting the controls and turning the volume and/or tone up or down, he had to 'sneak' his arm at the strings, almost parallel with the strings and the tailpiece. The easiest way to accomplish this is to raise the body of the guitar up towards his left armpit, and if it's a non-adjustable strap it will rotate the neck of the guitar towards the floor. Even after he removed and replaced those parts with the later pickups, it was how he felt comfortable playing the guitar, so it just became the way he played it.


Quote from: Xosé
...regarding McCartney's bass 'technique', he uses to place his right hand thumb over the strings and his hand palm 'touching' the neck..., doesn't he??

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obFcsEtFIKA[/url] ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obFcsEtFIKA[/url]) ...


Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on September 27, 2010, 01:34:52 PM
This is Lennon's Rick..., isn't it??  ???

(http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/4697/1strosettipickup.jpg) (http://img693.imageshack.us/i/1strosettipickup.jpg/)

(http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/3852/csemidisminuidojohn.jpg) (http://img245.imageshack.us/i/csemidisminuidojohn.jpg/)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Hello Goodbye on September 27, 2010, 03:32:00 PM
This is Lennon's Rick..., isn't it??  ???


Yes, I think so.

http://www.beatlesource.com/savage/1961/61.02.12%20casbah/61.02.12casbah.html (http://www.beatlesource.com/savage/1961/61.02.12%20casbah/61.02.12casbah.html)
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Hello Goodbye on September 27, 2010, 04:42:01 PM
Xose, you'd love this movie...

(http://www.spacejunk.org/spacejunk/wp-content/images/movies/Blow_Up_movie_poster_by_blissard.jpg)  (http://modculture.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451cbb069e2011571209b3b970b-800wi)
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on September 27, 2010, 06:11:11 PM
Well spotted. No doubt that it's John's guitar.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on September 27, 2010, 08:11:26 PM
Next question:

Which fret is Lennon's fretting??  8)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on October 02, 2010, 08:01:53 PM
Now I have a doubt. Is this the Kaiserkeller or the Top Ten??:  ???

(http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/4711/thejets1960.jpg) (http://img96.imageshack.us/i/thejets1960.jpg/)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Hello Goodbye on October 03, 2010, 01:38:23 AM
Xose, according to this article by Rick Hardy (aka Rick Richards), an original member of The Jets, the picture of The Jets you posted above was taken at The Top Ten Club in July, 1960...

http://www.bootlegzone.com/beatleg/thejets.html (http://www.bootlegzone.com/beatleg/thejets.html)
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on October 03, 2010, 10:24:59 AM
Xose, according to this article by Rick Hardy (aka Rick Richards), an original member of The Jets, the picture of The Jets you posted above was taken at The Top Ten Club in July, 1960...

Yes, I know. But if you have a look at other Top Ten photos (=for example, those of Spring 1961, with the Beatrles alone and with Tony Sheridan) those paintings seems not beieng there...  ???

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Hello Goodbye on October 03, 2010, 11:52:21 PM
It looks like they redecorated the place, Xose.


(http://www.beatlesource.com/savage/1961/61.03.27%2007.02%20top%20ten/06%20unknown/4.jpg)


Or maybe that mural is behind the curtain.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on October 04, 2010, 08:48:56 AM
Quote from: Hello Goodbye
It looks like they redecorated the place, Xose...
...Or maybe that mural is behind the curtain.

Yes: that should be the answer to my question...

Thank you!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on October 04, 2010, 08:52:39 AM
Plus I don't think it's Kaiserkeller because Tony had been kicked out by then.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on October 04, 2010, 08:59:34 AM
1) Salary receipt for The Beatles and Tony Sheridan for seven days' work at the Top Ten Club, Hamburg, June 10th-16th, 1961. The agreement is titled "...Musiken Rechnung..." (=Musicians' Payments), and lists the five Beatles and Tony Sheridan in the following order: George Harrison, Paul McCartney, John Lennon, Stuart Sutcliffe, Pete Best and Tony Sheridan, giving details of their matching salaries: "...7 a 35.-=DM245..." (=7 days at 35 DM), less tax, giving a total per week for each of DM245. Each paragraph is signed individually by the recipient. Sutcliffe is STILL playing bass with them by 16 June 1961.

(http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/1091/recibotopten1016dejunio.jpg) (http://img827.imageshack.us/i/recibotopten1016dejunio.jpg/)

2) McCartney at interview with Tony Bacon, 30 November 1994: "...Stu lent me his bass for a week or so..."

3) Recording sessions at Friedrich Ebert Halle, 22-23 June 1961. Sutcliffe is NOT there playing bass (=is McCartney using Stu's bass, or his new 500/1 at these recordings??)

4) Recording contract amongst JL, PM, GH & PB, on one side, and Bert Kämpfert, on the other side, come into effect on 1 July 1961 and remained in force until 30 June 1962*. Sutcliffe DIDN'T sign the contract:

(http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/1594/77243533t.jpg) (http://img514.imageshack.us/i/77243533t.jpg/)

(http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/3994/71036165.jpg) (http://img517.imageshack.us/i/71036165.jpg/)

(http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/8886/77356289.jpg) (http://img691.imageshack.us/i/77356289.jpg/)

(http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/1482/85629922.jpg) (http://img641.imageshack.us/i/85629922.jpg/)

(http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/9752/64260552.jpg) (http://img716.imageshack.us/i/64260552.jpg/)

(http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/7717/26874569.jpg) (http://img225.imageshack.us/i/26874569.jpg/)

5) On 2 July 1961 The Beatles return back to Liverpool and McCartney has ALREADY got his Höfner 500/1.

So..., when did McCartney purchase his Höfner 500/1??  ???

Xosé

* Reproduced from The Beatles with Tony Sheridan, Beatle Bop - Hamburg Days, Bear Family Records, 2001, pp. 12-17.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on October 04, 2010, 09:47:28 AM
One should think that Stuart would not get paid his share if he didn't play, so we should assume that Stuart at least played that week. Great find of that receipt. It does not mention whether Stuart also played the weeks before this week (10-16 June); the change of bassplayer could have been a process of months, in which Stuart did show up at times. And if not, Paul might have played the bass that was available.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on October 04, 2010, 09:57:48 AM
Quote from: Bobber
One should think that Stuart would not get paid his share if he didn't play, so we should assume that Stuart at least played that week. Great find of that receipt. It does not mention whether Stuart also played the weeks before this week (10-16 June); the change of bassplayer could have been a process of months, in which Stuart did show up at times. And if not, Paul might have played the bass that was available.


I agree. And in fact, some -very scarce!!- facts say that McCartney played bass on Sutcliffe absences (=both in Hamburg and in Liverpool from Autumn 1960 until the latter left the group (=save four gigs on December 1960 in Liverpool, when Chas Newby took the bass role...)

But..., would McCartney have purchased his bass if Sutcliffe's was STILL available??

BTW: the receipt does not mention whether Stuart also played the weeks before this week (10-16 June) because Peter Eckhorn issued those receipts weekly. See this one:

The Jets' first earnings at the Top Ten, dated 15 July 1960. Signed by Tony Sheridan, Colin Crawley, Peter Wharton, Rick Hardy and Jimmy Ward. Each bandmember took an equal share of 245 Deutsche Marks except for Jimmy Ward, who only worked 3 days and got 105 Deutsche Marks.

(http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/6924/jimmywardandthejetsfirs.jpg) (http://img132.imageshack.us/i/jimmywardandthejetsfirs.jpg/)

This receipt corresponds to this photo:

(http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/4711/thejets1960.jpg) (http://img96.imageshack.us/i/thejets1960.jpg/)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on October 04, 2010, 11:54:33 AM
Judging by the accuracy of the Jets receipt, we should assume that Stuart Sutcliffe played every day with the Beatles in the week of 10-16 June 1961. That really surprises me.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on October 04, 2010, 01:09:12 PM
Quote from: Bobber
Judging by the accuracy of the Jets receipt, we should assume that Stuart Sutcliffe played every day with the Beatles in the week of 10-16 June 1961. That really surprises me.


Yes: that is what that very interesting source says...

So, there is a VERY narrow time frame for McCartney purchasing his 500/1: 16 June -2 July 1961.

Now, the point is: did McCartney use his 500/1 on recording sessions at Friedrich Ebert Halle, 22-23 June 1961, or perhaps he STILL used Sutcliffe's 500/5??

And -even more interesting-, these photos at Top Ten (http://beatlesource.com/savage/1961/61.03.27%2007.02%20top%20ten/06%20unknown/04%20unknown.html) (=with both basses: McCartney's and Sutcliffe's) should be dated those days (=Macca's is pretty new, as he even hasn't still got a strap...)

BTW: when did Sutcliffe sold his bass to Klaus Voormann?

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on October 04, 2010, 02:05:22 PM
Depends. You are following the idea that Paul did not purchase his Hofner with Stu still in the band. You are assuming that because Stu was -according to the receipt- playing with The Beatles, Paul did not buy his Hofner yet. Another scenario could be that Stuart joined in on this week (or several weeks) because he might have needed some cash. Or to give Paul time to adjust to his new instrument. Just because Stu was paid and therefore obviously played with The Beatles from 10-16 June, it is not stated that Paul had not bought his Hofner yet.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on October 04, 2010, 02:52:21 PM
Quote from: Bobber
Depends. You are following the idea that Paul did not purchase his Hofner with Stu still in the band. You are assuming that because Stu was -according to the receipt- playing with The Beatles, Paul did not buy his Hofner yet. Another scenario could be that Stuart joined in on this week (or several weeks) because he might have needed some cash. Or to give Paul time to adjust to his new instrument. Just because Stu was paid and therefore obviously played with The Beatles from 10-16 June, it is not stated that Paul had not bought his Hofner yet.

Yes, you are right. Although McCartney wasn't keen on 'spending money' if another cheaper solution was at hand...

Anyway, it's clear that Sutcliffe was playing (=and paid for) with the Beatles on 10-16 June 1961...

What happened to Sutcliffe's 500/5 after leaving the band?? It's known that Klaus Voormann purchased it from Sutcliffe, but..., when??

Best!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on October 05, 2010, 08:31:47 AM
Maybe in Klaus' autobiography?
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on October 05, 2010, 08:50:41 AM
Found this on the site of the Liverpool Museum:

Stuart spent most of his money on paints and canvases. During the summer of his first year at college he worked as a bin man on the Liverpool Corporation rubbish collection lorries.

Stubs from this cheque book for his account at Westminster Bank, Princes Road, Liverpool 8 show that he had made payments for goods at Lewis's and Hessey's for John and Paul.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on October 05, 2010, 08:54:51 AM
Quote from: Bobber
Stubs from this cheque book for his account at Westminster Bank, Princes Road, Liverpool 8 show that he had made payments for goods at Lewis's and Hessey's for John and Paul.

Excellent, Bobber!! ;)

Does that source indicate which payments did Sutcliffe do for John & Paul??  ???

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on October 05, 2010, 09:11:39 AM
You will need a closer look at the chequebook stubs in the Liverpool Museum I'm afraid.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on October 05, 2010, 09:26:00 AM
You will need a closer look at the chequebook stubs in the Liverpool Museum I'm afraid.

Oh I see. Maybe somebody living there could have a look...

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on November 03, 2010, 09:34:27 AM
I'm uploading a daguerreotype of Domenico Dragonetti (1763-1846), the famous Venetian Double Bass player living in London for the most of his life:

(http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/3057/dragonetti.jpg) (http://img231.imageshack.us/i/dragonetti.jpg/)

This daguerreotype is dated 1843, hence one of the oldest known 'photographs' of a musician with his instrument...

Best!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on November 05, 2010, 08:20:28 AM
Great picture. Are you now researching this?
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on November 05, 2010, 09:16:35 AM
Great picture. Are you now researching this?

Not exactly, because I did it years ago (=end nineties...) ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on November 30, 2010, 10:33:35 PM
Tuesday February 16, 1965:

(http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/3916/unknownew.jpg) (http://img12.imageshack.us/i/unknownew.jpg/)(http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/7807/sdoublebass.jpg) (http://img528.imageshack.us/i/sdoublebass.jpg/)

This explains why Ringo was fooling around with the Double Bass bow onto the Ramírez:

(http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/2901/feb65ringoconlaramrezde.jpg) (http://img812.imageshack.us/i/feb65ringoconlaramrezde.jpg/)

But, the question is: why a Double Bass -and its bow- was there during that session. Another different recording being done by an orchestra at those days??

Best!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 01, 2010, 04:03:45 AM
^

Wow!  Ringo did that before Jimmy Page...

(http://thumbs.imagekind.com/member/39879bef-971d-4a1b-a476-da90fa40b267/uploadedartwork/650X650/d19db14a-2d06-46b9-ba27-4723c004c3b4.jpg)


Add that to the things The Beatles invented.

;)
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on December 01, 2010, 09:32:49 AM
Another one:

(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a326/talanca/PIX/maccabass.jpg)

Whose that Double Bass??  ???

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on December 01, 2010, 09:45:15 AM
There is a clue at Brian Kehew - Kevin Ryan, Recording The Beatles, Houston, Curvebender, 2008, p. 394, a note in George Martin's hand for the 20 February session reads:

"...That Means a Lot
Track 1: George on Spanish acoustic
John on Fender
Drums + bass

Track 2: Paul bowing bass guitar
Ringo tom tom (w/echo)
And beginning only John on Fender..."


So, the Double Bass bow was there by those days. But this doesn't explain why both Double bass + bow were there.

I think an orchestra could be recording at Abbey Road (=probably on Studio 1) by those days, but...., which one??  ???

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 01, 2010, 07:11:46 PM
Xose, The George Martin Orchestra recorded their pieces for this album at Abbey Road...

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5d/Helpgeorgemartin.jpg)

Maybe that bass fiddle belonged to someone in the band.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 01, 2010, 07:13:28 PM
Also, large instruments like pianos and double basses are often found at recording studios.  They're "house instruments."
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 01, 2010, 07:17:30 PM
Or maybe Paul asked for a bass fiddle to be there that day.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on December 01, 2010, 07:21:23 PM
Xose, The George Martin Orchestra recorded their pieces for this album at Abbey Road...

Brillant, HG!! ;) Thank you SO much!! ;)

Also, large instruments like pianos and double basses are often found at recording studios.  They're "house instruments."

Mmmm... I don't think so. At least, not in the case of a professional Double Bass player from mid-XXth. Century onwards. Goldne word of another Double Bass player!! ;)

Or maybe Paul asked for a bass fiddle to be there that day.

Yes: that could be likely...

But I stick to your first theory: George Martin Orchestra...

Best!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on December 02, 2010, 08:11:58 AM
Now, who were the members of the George Martin Orchestra? ;D
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on December 02, 2010, 08:55:06 AM
Now, who were the members of the George Martin Orchestra? ;D

Yes...  ;D

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on December 02, 2010, 09:02:12 AM
Double Bass players:

Perhaps Cyril MacArther and Gordon Pearce??

(http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/2743/dayinlife2.jpg)(http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/5622/dbplayers.jpg) (http://img94.imageshack.us/i/dbplayers.jpg/)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 06, 2010, 05:24:40 PM
Double Bass players:

Perhaps Cyril MacArther and Gordon Pearce??

([url]http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/2743/dayinlife2.jpg[/url])([url]http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/5622/dbplayers.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://img94.imageshack.us/i/dbplayers.jpg/[/url])

Xosé


Yes, Cyril MacArther and Gordon Pearce on contrabass...

http://www.thebeatleshk.com/Discography/Albums/SgtPeppersLonelyHeartsClubBand.html (http://www.thebeatleshk.com/Discography/Albums/SgtPeppersLonelyHeartsClubBand.html)
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on December 06, 2010, 06:51:05 PM
Yes, Cyril MacArther and Gordon Pearce on contrabass...

Thank you HG!! ;)

I was meaning if they could be as well the ones who played on George Martin's Orchestra by February 1965...

Best!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on December 07, 2010, 08:24:49 AM
I've tried to find who the members of the George Martin Orchestra were. I haven't dug deep enough yet I guess.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on December 07, 2010, 08:33:25 AM
I've tried to find who the members of the George Martin Orchestra were. I haven't dug deep enough yet I guess.

Ok, Bobber. Thanks anyway!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Griff on December 09, 2010, 09:25:18 PM
Phil Whitehead didn't join us untill we come back from Hamburg. I played all the bass riffs on my guitar along with the solo work. Also in the band in Hamburg was Stan Foster on piano,he left when we returned to Liverpool. Geeeez -- I should write a book! The first night the Beatles arrived I met Lennon on the stairs in the Kaiserkeller and he asked me who was playing bass for us, when I replied it was me, he was confused for a second, but I had been playing that way with the Seniors for about a year.
           Griff --- Seniors and the Big Three
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on December 09, 2010, 10:56:10 PM
Phil Whitehead didn't join us untill we come back from Hamburg. I played all the bass riffs on my guitar along with the solo work. Also in the band in Hamburg was Stan Foster on piano,he left when we returned to Liverpool. Geeeez -- I should write a book! The first night the Beatles arrived I met Lennon on the stairs in the Kaiserkeller and he asked me who was playing bass for us, when I replied it was me, he was confused for a second, but I had been playing that way with the Seniors for about a year.
           Griff --- Seniors and the Big Three

Excellent, Griff!!! Thank you SO much!! ;)

I would have a lot a questions for you, but only one:

Do you remember Paul McCartney in Hamburg playing his Rosetti Solid 7 as a 'bass' with three piano strings on it, or playing Sutcliffe's bass??

Thanks in advance and very best wishes!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Griff on December 09, 2010, 11:44:05 PM
I remember McCartney playing the Rosetti, not plugged in. Maybe he did play Stuart's bass on the odd occasion. Just before I left Hamburg I sold my broken amp to Paul, so he could use the speaker with something else he was putting together. I also borrowed an extra 20 marks from him. When we were all back in the 'pool he had to chase me to get his money back. When he finally did, Paul -- myself and my brother went to the Grapes pub after a gig at the Cavern and proceeded to spend the money and get p#$%#@^.

              Griff
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on December 10, 2010, 12:15:37 AM
I remember McCartney playing the Rosetti, not plugged in. Maybe he did play Stuart's bass on the odd occasion. Just before I left Hamburg I sold my broken amp to Paul, so he could use the speaker with something else he was putting together. I also borrowed an extra 20 marks from him. When we were all back in the 'pool he had to chase me to get his money back. When he finally did, Paul -- myself and my brother went to the Grapes pub after a gig at the Cavern and proceeded to spend the money and get p#$%#@^.

              Griff

Again..., excellent!! Thank you SO much!! ;)

So, McCartney was playing the Rosetti, not plugged in, ALREADY in Hamburg..., correct? This is a very good finding, because all evidence so far found, told about he used his Rosetti not plugged in when returning back to Liverpool (=end December 1960 onwards...)

There is another interesting fact you have put over the table: he used the speaker you sold to him ALREADY in Hamburg. So maybe his Elpico was not working at those days??

BTW: if he did play Stuart's bass on the odd occasion in Hamburg, this means that this was -probably- the first time he played a bass guitar on stage..., am I right??

Please: excuse all my questions but your memories are fantastic...

Thanks again!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Griff on December 10, 2010, 10:22:33 PM
He was not plugged in, but you have to remember we left Hamburg before them, so obviously I am not aware of any happenings once we had left. Could be that his amp was screwed, things were breaking down all the time. You have to remember they were just the Beatles, like we were just the Seniors, a bunch of kids from Liverpool who loved R'n'R and partying.Sometimes we would be off somewhere else when they were playing, and the same goes for them. It may be hard for some people to understand but, there were no big stars amongst us at the time, just a bunch of scallys' from the 'pool. 
              I did get up with them one night and sang 'Long Tally Sally' and 'Rip It Up' .

                   Griff
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on December 10, 2010, 10:42:01 PM
He was not plugged in, but you have to remember we left Hamburg before them, so obviously I am not aware of any happenings once we had left. Could be that his amp was screwed, things were breaking down all the time. You have to remember they were just the Beatles, like we were just the Seniors, a bunch of kids from Liverpool who loved R'n'R and partying.Sometimes we would be off somewhere else when they were playing, and the same goes for them. It may be hard for some people to understand but, there were no big stars amongst us at the time, just a bunch of scallys' from the 'pool.  
              I did get up with them one night and sang 'Long Tally Sally' and 'Rip It Up'...

Excellent again, Griff!! ;)

So, if my data are correct, you left Hamburg on 30 September 1960. This means that, by September 1960, Paul McCartney played his Rosetti Solid 7 not plugged into an amp at Indra..., right??

BTW: according to Eric Krasker, The Beatles. Fact and Fiction. 1960-1962, Biarritz, Séguier, 2009, pp. 34-35:

"...During September, while the Beatles were trying their best to attract customers to the Indra Club, the Kaiserkeller suffered the full force of competition from the Top Ten Club. Bruno Koschmider soon noticed that the clientele thinned out whenever Derry & The Seniors stopped for a break, even though the jukebox promptly took over. He could hardly expect his resident musicians to work non-stop, and the new Liverpool group he was expecting had not yet arrived. So in the meantime he decided to boost slack periods at the Kaiserkeller in another way - by 'creating' a third group as a stopgap.

Thus he took sax player Howie Casey and pianist Stan Foster from the Seniors, engaged a German jazz drummer who was working in another club and enlisted a Beatle, Stuart Sutcliffe, who on this ocassion had to use the Seniors' bass. The Beatles, forced to restructure their line-up had to entrust Sutcliffe's Höfner bass to Paul McCartney who, because he was left-handed, could but play it the other way round..."


So..., which bass did Stuart play with you at Kaiserkeller and which bass did McCartney play at Indra??

Thank you very much again!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Griff on December 12, 2010, 08:22:41 PM
Stuart did not use any bass that our band had, because we didn't have one! I know that we were all split up for a few days, but I can't remember who was with whom. As I mentioned before we were just a bunch of kids from the 'pool. None of us would have been in any way exited, by playing with someone from the Beatles or someone from the Seniors, for their musician ship. We would have had just a good old time!!
                        Griff
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on December 12, 2010, 09:03:08 PM
Stuart did not use any bass that our band had, because we didn't have one! I know that we were all split up for a few days, but I can't remember who was with whom...

Thanks again, Griff!! ;)

Your info is absolutely very valuable because YOU were there at the time...

Only one more question (=last one. I promise!!):

Do you remember if Lennon already had got his Rickenbacker guitar while you (=The Seniors) were playing at the Indra?? (=i.e.: before 30 September 1960...)

Best wishes from Spain!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Griff on December 13, 2010, 05:13:29 PM
Hi Xose
           Yes he did,I went with him to pick it up at the music store in Hamburg. While John was paying for it , he gave it to me to play.
I was trying out the tremelo arm ( Wammy bar) when it came off in my hand. The saleman spluttered something in german , and John said " what the #$%^ did you do that for? I felt really bad at the time because he had to leave it for a few days untill they fixed it.

                        Griff

PS we were playing at the Kaiserkeller at the time.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on December 13, 2010, 07:02:44 PM
Hi Xose
           Yes he did,I went with him to pick it up at the music store in Hamburg. While John was paying for it , he gave it to me to play.
I was trying out the tremelo arm ( Wammy bar) when it came off in my hand. The saleman spluttered something in german , and John said " what the #$%^ did you do that for? I felt really bad at the time because he had to leave it for a few days untill they fixed it.

                        Griff

PS we were playing at the Kaiserkeller at the time.

Wonderful... Thanks a lot, Griff!! ;)

This places his purchasing before 30 September 1960. Do you remember the name of the shop?? Maybe Rathoff??

Very best wishes!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Griff on December 13, 2010, 09:59:46 PM
Can't remember.
                       Griff
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on December 13, 2010, 10:08:30 PM
Can't remember.


Well. Anyway, you have provided a SUPERB information about those days. Maybe some day we can know the complete story... Even how much did Lennon pay for his Rick!!

Thanks to your info, now I can guess that this FUMA type pickup on McCartney's Rosetti three_piano_strings 'bass':

(http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/7286/49567441.jpg) (http://img510.imageshack.us/i/49567441.jpg/)

...could be -probably- got in Liverpool and not in Hamburg...

Thank you VERY MUCH again!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on December 22, 2010, 09:29:47 PM
Tuesday February 16, 1965:

([url]http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/3916/unknownew.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://img12.imageshack.us/i/unknownew.jpg/[/url])([url]http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/7807/sdoublebass.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://img528.imageshack.us/i/sdoublebass.jpg/[/url])

This explains why Ringo was fooling around with the Double Bass bow onto the Ramírez:

([url]http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/2901/feb65ringoconlaramrezde.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://img812.imageshack.us/i/feb65ringoconlaramrezde.jpg/[/url])...

...Another one:

([url]http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a326/talanca/PIX/maccabass.jpg[/url])...


One more:

(http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/50/paulmccartneyconcontrab.jpg) (http://img811.imageshack.us/i/paulmccartneyconcontrab.jpg/)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on December 23, 2010, 03:26:35 PM
Pete Best talking about 17 Deceember 1960:

"...Back in Liverpool the home bound Beatles were floating, doing nothing. Pete spoke to his mother Mo. He told her The Beatles got really really good in Hamburg. He asked if she would throw them a lifeline by booking them and seeking bookings for them. Mo agreed. Pete wrote to John and Stuart. John replied, he was coming home. Stu replied, he would come home , but not until January. He wanted to spend Christmas and New Year with his girlfriend Astrid Kirchner. Pete asked Chas Newby The Blackjacks Bass player if would he stand in for Stu. Chas agreed and a date was set for their first date in Liverpool. Their first date in the UK. The 17th of December 1960 at the Casbah Coffee Club, but there is a problem. The Beatles have no equipment. It is still in Hamburg. Mo books Gene Day and the Jango Beats to play (AKA Earl Preston and the TT's). Will they lend their equipment to The Beatles. They agree.

The Casbah is jammed to the rafters. The posters on the walls state "The Beatles Direct From Hamburg Germany" will be playing. The Casbah crowd are excited. The Casbah has gone international. There is a German group coming to play.
Gene Day and the Jango Beats performed. They're a good group (Who later became Earl Preston and the TT's) and they are well received. It's time for The Beatles..."


So..., no Best's Premier and no McCartney's Elpico + Rosetti by 17 December 1960??  ???

Again, Harrison's letter to Sutcliffe (="...come back sooner..."), dated 16 December 1960, makes sense. And again, the Rosetti Solid 7 converted to a three strings 'bass', by 31 December 1960, also makes sense...

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on February 19, 2011, 12:50:51 PM
English bass players in Hamburg by August 1960

- At Top Ten, Peter Wharton plays a Double Bass:

Quote from: Xosé
...The Jets arrive in Hamburg with a Framus Star Bass on 5 June 1960:

([url]http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/4711/thejets1960.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://img96.imageshack.us/i/thejets1960.jpg/[/url])

On 30 June, their contract with Bruno Koschmider to play at the Kaiserkeller was extended for a further four weeks, but they only performed until 6 July, as Peter Eckhorn offered them to play at his new club, the Top Ten, offering them a wage increase of 5 Deutschemarks per day and per person, including superior lodgings in the building's attic. The opening took place on Saturday 9 July 1960, and soon afterwards a Double Bass was purchased by Peter Eckhorn for the club:

([url]http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/6126/50465641.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://img194.imageshack.us/i/50465641.jpg/[/url])

([url]http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/3575/52158958.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://img19.imageshack.us/i/52158958.jpg/[/url])

([url]http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/6132/98921335.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://img339.imageshack.us/i/98921335.jpg/[/url])...


- At Kaiserkeller, Brian Griffiths plays bass lines with his guitar:

Quote from: Xosé
... Brian Griffiths has posted today:

"...Phil Whitehead didn't join us until we come back from Hamburg. I played all the bass riffs on my guitar along with the solo work. Also in the band in Hamburg was Stan Foster on piano. He left when we returned to Liverpool. Geeeez -- I should write a book! The first night the Beatles arrived I met Lennon on the stairs in the Kaiserkeller and he asked me who was playing bass for us, when I replied it was me, he was confused for a second, but I had been playing that way with the Seniors for about a year..."

IMHO, it's very interesting that Lennon asked for the bass player...


(http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/4131/derrytheseniorsi.jpg) (http://img405.imageshack.us/i/derrytheseniorsi.jpg/)

(http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/4514/derrytheseniorsii.jpg) (http://img441.imageshack.us/i/derrytheseniorsii.jpg/)

- At Indra, Stuart Sutcliffe plays his brunnette Höfner 500/5:

(http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/7266/indray.jpg) (http://img198.imageshack.us/i/indray.jpg/)

Amazing...  ???

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on February 19, 2011, 03:59:54 PM
Quote from: Xosé
By those days (=beginning May 1960) not many Liverpool bands did have a bass guitar...

...At least two bass players (=perhaps three??) at this historical audition had their regular guitars converted to a bass, i.e., 40% (=perhaps 60%??) of the total. No wonder that Paul McCartney did the same a few months after with his Solid 7...

Mo Foster, Seventeen Watts?, London, Sanctuary, 1997, pp. 93-94:

"...Often, in the enthusiasm of forming a band, there would be an excess of one instrument. This imbalance was solved during the skiffle period when four guitars would suddenly dwindle to three guitars as one player, so he imagined, was demoted to the lower rank of bass player. Everybody thought there had to be a bass although nobody actually knew what it did. The unfortunate player was usually chosen by default -either he knew the least number of chords, or he was last to join, or perhaps his personality dictated a desire to stand at the back...
...Somehow, somewhere, I'd heard the phrase 'Electric Bass Guitar'. It sounded longer and more important than just a guitar, and I liked it. Desperate for more information (even though my lack of funds would preclude such a purchase), I scanned the advertisements but they were not helpful. For example, 'The Hofner Bass Guitar': "Guitarists, double your income with the Hofner Bass Guitar. Tuned like a bass with the third, fourth, fifth and sixth strings of a guitar"...
...This confusing information led me to believe that to play the bass guitar you merely removed the top two strings of an ordinary guitar, and then in some way amplified it..."
...


(http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/6800/primeranunciodeunbajoel.jpg) (http://img87.imageshack.us/i/primeranunciodeunbajoel.jpg/)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on February 20, 2011, 10:14:52 PM
This is all I can do, although there still are some lacunae:

"...25, Upton Green,
Speke,
Liverpool, 24,
Friday Dec 16th.

Dear Stu,

I hope you are going on ok there with Astrid. I arrived ok (24 hours exactly), but spent a packet on porters, taxis, etc.

I went to see your mum and dad, the day after I arrived, and they were very pleased to see me. Your dad doesn't seem too to mind the idea of you being engaged, but your mum seemed a little disappointed in you, (that is as far as I could make out). Your new home is fab, and your dad was busy adding finishing ... to the paint work. I was shown your room to be, which is about the same size of the room you & John occupied at Gambier, and your mum has moved in all your paintings photos - record player – bed etc. I like the painting you did of ...

...I saw John last night for the first [MISSING PAGE: time he has be (sic) home, although he's been back for a week or so. He never let on to us!...

...I was at the 'Jac' last night...

...we have bookings for Christmas Eve, Boxing day, New years Eve...

... Can't you, or won't you come home sooner, as if we get a new bass player for the time being, it will be crumby, as he will have to learn everything, and its no good with Paul playing bass, we've decided, that is if he had some kind of bass & amp to play on!...

... So how about coming home son! This hasn't been talked about with the others in the group, and is just my opinion...

...If you aren't coming home for awhile, can you send some money to keep Frank Hessey]
laughing. I want to get an Echo for Christmas, £34, or £6 down, the rest when Frank catches me, so if all my other stuff is up to dak (sic) I will probably be able to get it with no guarantee. I believe Gerry has one, only he ruins it by using it on every number.

I bought Eddies 'Singing to My Baby' LP, Man of Mystery, Lucille, Only the Lonely, Like Strangers, (Everly's new one), Perfidia, (Ventures new one), and may buy an instrumental called Chariot. I am learning everything I can get my hands on now!

Anyway Stu, get home here smartish, and remember me to the wife, Jurgend, + the blonde one as well. Remember, the trip is quite good even alone, and you too can be in Ullett Rd in exactly 24 hrs!

Cheerio from

George

P.S. All groups here have Fender & Burns solid guitars & Bass & Echo's on their amps, so we want to be at our best as soon as we start spieling.

Jim Gretty also send his love.

(This address was on the back of the envelope you sent, so I hope it is the right one)..."


Could anybody help to fill the lacunae??  ??? ...

Peter Stone, "An interview with The Beatles' Chas Newby", Beatlology Magazine (September/October 2007), pp. 8-13:

"...CN:...but there were a couple of tunes where I had to learn a bass line. There's a Ray Charles number, Hallelujah, I Love Her So, but they used to do the Eddie Cochrane type version of it. And that had a more scale bass line to it, rather than just a blues .playing the prime note and the thirds. So I had to learn that. And the other one was Red Sails In The Sunset. Its funny now, because I've joined a band, here, locally -you know, a bunch of old guys playing together. And, some of the songs they sing are Beatles songs, and it's amazing how many of those Beatles songs have the same scale progessions for the bass lines. And funny enough, that's exactly the same as Red Sails In The Sunset. I can remember, even Paul must have, I guess, been listening for the bass line that he wanted in a particular song. And, I can remember him playing it, because bear in mind we were both left-handed and so we had a certain affinity. But I can remember him playing it on his guitar and then showing me the notes that he wanted me to play for Red Sails In The Sunset and Hallelujah, I Love Her So. But with all the others, there wasn't that sort of problem, because they were basically... 12-bar blues and just play the bass line like a boogie-woogie, like a left-hand on a piano.

P.S.: It's intriguing that Paul was interested, even back then, in the bass lines.

CN: All I'm saying is that he was the one who told me what he wanted to hear. Whether it was just the bass line or whether he told the others what he wanted to hear, I don't know. I'm not aware of that. But, he was the one in those two particular songs. He made sure that I knew what it was he wanted..."


So, Paul McCartney was playing bass lines with his Solid 7 on 17 December 1960..., wasn't he??...

If we cross these two sources, we can conclude that McCartney started to be the Beatles bass player by December 1960 -when Sutcliffe or Newby weren't at hand-, and that he used his Rosetti "bass" to fulfill that function...

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on February 24, 2011, 09:37:57 AM
Not sure about that conclusion.
We can read that the group has decided that 'it's no good with Paul playing bass'. That means that the band had been talking about filling in Stu's place for the time being. Obviously they all thought it would be no good with Paul playing bass, so they went looking for someone else to fullfill the vacant position on bass while Stu was still in Germany. Chas Newby says that it was Paul who told him what he wanted to hear, not that Paul was playing bass at this time.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on February 24, 2011, 09:51:35 AM
Not sure about that conclusion.
We can read that the group has decided that 'it's no good with Paul playing bass'. That means that the band had been talking about filling in Stu's place for the time being. Obviously they all thought it would be no good with Paul playing bass, so they went looking for someone else to fullfill the vacant position on bass while Stu was still in Germany. Chas Newby says that it was Paul who told him what he wanted to hear, not that Paul was playing bass at this time.

Yes but..., why does George say "...we've decided, that is if he had some kind of bass & amp to play on!..."?? Maybe they tried with the Rosetti "bass" -that means that McCartney played the bass lines with his guitar- and they realised it didn't work as expected??

After all, McCartney did really play bass lines with his Rosetti "bass"...

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on February 24, 2011, 12:49:46 PM
I think George means that they had discussed the matter and realized that Paul didn't even have a bass and amp to perform with, should he have wanted to play the bass at all.
When did Paul start performing with the rebuild Rosetti?
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on February 24, 2011, 01:06:57 PM
I think George means that they had discussed the matter and realized that Paul didn't even have a bass and amp to perform with, should he have wanted to play the bass at all.
When did Paul start performing with the rebuild Rosetti?

Another scenary is that having booked 4 gigs for December 1960, and not being Stu with them, they tried to use the Rosetti as a "bass" and it didn't fullfil their expectatives, so they look for another solution (=Harrison writes to Sutcliffe to come back to Liverpool, and Sutcliffe refused. Best asked his old bandmate Chas Newby and he agreed, borrowed a Höfner bass guitar...)

The Casbah photo is dated 12 February 1961, according to Chazz Avery...

But several witnesses remember him playing the Rosetti with a few strings on it in September 1960 (=Hamburg), December 1960 (=Liverpool), and January 1961 (=Liverpool), one of them even remembers that he used his Rosetti to play bass lines...

Sutcliffe is not there until end January, Newby returns back to his studies and they have booked more gigs for January. Solution?? Using the Rosetti as a "bass" (=hence the photo with the three piano strings and the FUMA_type pickup...)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on February 24, 2011, 02:49:11 PM
Tom Mulhern, "Interview to Paul McCartney", Guitar Player, July 1990 (=full interview here (http://www.macca-central.com/macca-archives/guitarplayer.htm)...):

"...Q. You obviously didn't abandon guitar altogether, but did you ever feel that you had hopelessly locked yourself into the role of the bassist?

A. It's funny, actually. I have problems with one of the books that's been written about us, because the guy obviously didn't like me. That's fair enough. But this guy started to make up a whole story of how I was so keen to be the bass player that I really did a number on Stuart Sutcliffe, the original bass player. He made it sound as if I had planned this whole thing to become the Beatles' bass player. I remember ringing George up shortly after this book came out, and I asked him, "Do you remember me really going hard to chuck Stu out of the group and be a bass player?" And he said, "No, you got lumbered with bass, man. None of us would do it." I said, "Well, that's how I remembered it." Because it's true: We all wanted to be guitar players.

Q. Sure. Bass players were never frontmen.

A. The fat boy in the back was the bass player, and who wanted to be him? So I really wasn't too keen to do it, but I'd had a real bad guitar-because of my fear of getting in debt. When I went to Hamburg, I had a thing called the Rosetti Lucky 7 [sic], which is a really terrible British [sic] guitar with terrible action. It just fell apart on me-you know, just the heat in the club and the sweat made it fall apart. Eventually, I sort of busted it-early rumblings of the Who! In a drunken moment it was busted somewhere, and it had to go. So I ended up with my back to the audience, playing piano, which was then the only thing I could do unless I could get a new guitar.

So, yeah, I did pretty much get lumbered into playing bass. I didn't really want to do it, but then I started to see interesting things in it..."


Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on March 12, 2011, 10:04:36 AM
I have tried to find the names of the members of the George Martin Orchestra, but haven't found anything yet. Did you have more luck?
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on March 12, 2011, 08:33:44 PM
I have tried to find the names of the members of the George Martin Orchestra, but haven't found anything yet. Did you have more luck?

No, I didn't...  >:(

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Hello Goodbye on March 13, 2011, 02:12:37 AM
Neither did I.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on April 09, 2011, 10:11:18 AM
Walter Everett, The Beatles as Musicians. The Quarry Men through Rubber Soul, Oxford, OUP, 2001, p. 94:

"...McCartney first recordings as bassist [Polydor recordings, June 1961] show only the dominant compositional traits that became the core of his playing style into 1964...[1] Arpeggiation-based ostinati (with their basis in boogie-woogie) are taken from Presley recordings and from saxophone arrangements on Richard and Domino records. Otherwise, McCartney typically parts [2] repeated roots or [3] he alternates roots with fifths in dotted rhythm..."...


According to the entry "Boogie-Woogie" in the 2001 edition of The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians, this recording by George Thomas -aka Clay Custer-, dated 1923, "...was one of the first recorded examples of a walking bass...":

George W. Thomas - The Rocks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVIMeG7Xe34#)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Ken Wood on December 05, 2011, 04:01:15 PM
Walter Everett considers that Mike McCartney played drums at those recordings (=those where a drummer is audible at).

At Mike McCartney, Mike Mac's white and black plus one colour, London, Aurum Press, 1986, these photos...

([url]http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/9068/75169741.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://img13.imageshack.us/i/75169741.jpg/[/url])

([url]http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/9608/sconmike.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://img32.imageshack.us/i/sconmike.jpg/[/url])

...have the following reading:

"...Paul's first trumpet from Cousin Ian and two guitars, plus my drums and banjo..."

???

Xosé

Hi Xosé,
I figured you managed to identify the banjo in these photos (http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/168216 (http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/168216)). Great!
However in that forum you say the photos are from December 1960 - can you let me know how you did arrive at that date?
We (http://beatlesdaybyday.freeforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=1420&t=6936 (http://beatlesdaybyday.freeforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=1420&t=6936)) are currently trying to id this photo but never read a date for it.
Thanks!

Sorry everybody else if this question is taking the thread off topic for a moment!
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on December 05, 2011, 09:11:15 PM
Hi Ken Wood,

Hi Xosé,
I figured you managed to identify the banjo in these photos ([url]http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/168216[/url] ([url]http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/168216[/url])). Great!
However in that forum you say the photos are from December 1960 - can you let me know how you did arrive at that date?
We ([url]http://beatlesdaybyday.freeforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=1420&t=6936[/url] ([url]http://beatlesdaybyday.freeforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=1420&t=6936[/url])) are currently trying to id this photo but never read a date for it.
Thanks!

Sorry everybody else if this question is taking the thread off topic for a moment!


The banjo is a Windsor. i identified it last year...

Regarding the datation for the photo, it was merely a hypothesis. Why?? Because those photos were taken with the camera Paul brought to Hamburg as a present for his brother Mike, after his first trip to Hamburg. This is what Mike says in his book...

I hope to be of any help...

Best!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Ken Wood on December 07, 2011, 10:27:18 AM
Regarding the datation for the photo, it was merely a hypothesis. Why?? Because those photos were taken with the camera Paul brought to Hamburg as a present for his brother Mike, after his first trip to Hamburg. This is what Mike says in his book...

Thanks for the quick reply! So Mike eplicitly stated that these were taken with said camera?

My own guess so far for these was that they were taken in the first half of 1960 because
a) the Rossetti is absent (it was bought July 30 IIRC)
b) the drums feature "beatles" written on it - I guess they were used by Paul for those Beatles gigs he filled in as a drummer (the strip-club shows and possibly others)

But December would be just as fitting - after Paul`s return he did not have the Rossetti for a while as it still had to be sent over from Germany

By now however I saw two photos of Mike that he took of himself with said camera (at least I think it is this camera):
(http://www.beatlesbible.com/images/people/mike-mccartney_001.jpg)(http://www.beatlesbible.com/images/people/mike-mccartney_002.jpg)

To me Mike appears younger here than in the "instruments heap" photos, so those must have been taken later I guess.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on December 07, 2011, 02:53:36 PM
Hello Ken Wood,

Thanks for the quick reply! So Mike eplicitly stated that these were taken with said camera?...

You ate welcome... ;)

And yes: I don't have right now at hand my copy of Mike's book, but he explicitly stated that were taken with the Said camera. I can check the book anyway when I get home...

...My own guess so far for these was that they were taken in the first half of 1960 because
a) the Rossetti is absent (it was bought July 30 IIRC)
b) the drums feature "beatles" written on it - I guess they were used by Paul for those Beatles gigs he filled in as a drummer (the strip-club shows and possibly others)

But December would be just as fitting - after Paul`s return he did not have the Rossetti for a while as it still had to be sent over from Germany...

Yes: that would be another possibility? However, let me check the book to look if Mike explicitly states that he used the camera brought by Paul from Hamburg....

I will keep you updated...

Best!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Ken Wood on December 07, 2011, 05:27:50 PM
Thanks for checking again - I enjoyed what I saw of your research very much!
I usually hang out at the Bootlegzone and the Beatles Day By Day photo forum but already feel right at home here too!
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on December 07, 2011, 05:44:40 PM
Thanks for checking again - I enjoyed what I saw of your research very much!
I usually hang out at the Bootlegzone and the Beatles Day By Day photo forum but already feel right at home here too!

Thank you very much!! ;)

I'm also very happy at this wonderful forum... ;)

Best,

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: georgefromhenley on June 09, 2012, 09:56:31 PM
scan removed

 ;)
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: TomMo on June 10, 2012, 07:52:51 PM
With the Beatles' five man line-up, including Stu, what exactly was Paul's role? Second rhythm guitarist or second lead guitarist? Every indication seems to be that he was a rhythm guitarist. Did he occasionally play lead?

More to the point of your question, might Paul have played bass notes on his guitar to cover up for Stu? It's certainly not unheard of for a guitarist to double up on what the bassist is playing (or in Stu's case, supposed to be playing). The Beatles certainly did that on "Day Tripper", with guitar and bass playing the main riff.

If Paul dreaded the thought of being the full time bassist, he certainly did jump into the role quickly and competently, didn't he? While his best playing started after the "Help" album, he was no slouch on their earlier work, given what was expected of a rock bassist in the early 60's.

So why do I think that Paul, even without a bass guitar, was more than prepared when the time came? Even if it was just out of boredom, I can see where Paul noodled around with bass lines before he ever touched a bass.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Ken Wood on June 11, 2012, 07:12:39 AM
Wow, we got a date for the purchasing of the bass now! I think that`s pretty sensational, as the date was always subject of dispute!
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on June 11, 2012, 07:33:49 AM
Excellent.... Thank yóu very much!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: georgefromhenley on June 11, 2012, 08:40:18 AM
Haven`t you noticed the ;-)

This one was a joke - it is better to delete the pic.

Thorsten
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Ken Wood on June 11, 2012, 11:10:13 AM
You got me! I thought if it comes from you it must be real. :-)
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: georgefromhenley on June 11, 2012, 01:49:37 PM
Sorry, Ken Wood!

BTW:
In the great Beatles Gear book - it is written there that Johns Ric, Stuarts amp and Pauls Höfner bass were bought in Hamburg on installement plans. Will you believe that? Some british Rockers who are in Hamburg for a gig of some weeks get an amp for 2000 DM on an installement??? I can`t imagine that. Any ideas??????
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Ken Wood on June 12, 2012, 10:50:06 AM
Sorry, Ken Wood!

BTW:
In the great Beatles Gear book - it is written there that Johns Ric, Stuarts amp and Pauls Höfner bass were bought in Hamburg on installement plans. Will you believe that? Some british Rockers who are in Hamburg for a gig of some weeks get an amp for 2000 DM on an installement??? I can`t imagine that. Any ideas??????
Maybe Bruno Koschmider vouched for them? Yeah, kind of hard to imagine...
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on January 12, 2013, 05:07:34 PM
Now, I think McCartney could have his Solid 7 converted to a bass_with_three_piano_strings_plus_a_Fuma_type_guitar_&_cable while in Hamburg because:

a) That gear (=Fuma type pickup + cable), being German made, was available in Hamburg but perhaps not in Liverpool

b) Cfr. David Bedford, Liddypool. Birthplace of The Beatles, Deerfield, Dalton Watson Fine Books, 2009, pp. 147-148 (=interview to Faron Ruffley):

"...[Q]: Tell me your memories of The Beatles' Litherland Town Hall appearance.

[A]:...I'll never forget that night at Litherland after they returned [from Hamburg]. I was chatting to the girls at the back of the hall. Bob announces 'Direct from Hamburg, The Beatles' and they started with 'Long Tall Sally' which Paul sang. I'll never forget it, it was so loud and piercing, and then they belted the song out. The crowd went wild, and the girls ran from the back of the hall to the stage, leaving me on my own. They started screaming -I'd never seen it before; no one had.

I had my trademark white suit and these lads were scruffy. Paul had a brown tweed jacket; they all had smelly leathers with fur trim and they did stink. John had ripped jeans. They were a right mess, Paul had a red guitar with three strings on it, and it wasn't even plugged in. John hit his amp with a hammer to get it going. What on earth was going on?

They were different. Paul sang 'Oh My Soul' and 'Long Tall Sally', and then John would do Gene Vincent's 'Dance in the Street' and George would do 'Everybody's Trying To Be My Baby' and then they would all do 'Searching' together. No other groups do this. There would be one singer and backing singers, but they had three of them doing solos and then singing three-part harmonies together. However, I then made my famous quote: 'They'll never last'. How wrong was I? I say that the world never saw the real Beatles, the greatest rock 'n' roll band ever known...".
...


German system:

(http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/7286/49567441.jpg) (http://img510.imageshack.us/i/49567441.jpg/)

(http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/5015/sblackstrip.jpg) (http://img97.imageshack.us/i/sblackstrip.jpg/)

(http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/9319/503k1957.jpg) (http://img13.imageshack.us/i/503k1957.jpg/)

(http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/5279/pastiilacomoladepaulens.jpg) (http://img299.imageshack.us/i/pastiilacomoladepaulens.jpg/)

(http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/31/1358010101184.jpg)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on January 14, 2013, 10:37:20 AM
Great!
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Ken Wood on January 14, 2013, 03:02:16 PM
The Solid 7 modifications are all very strange. Trying to get a grip on them here.

The initial guitar had the pick-ups including the controls mounted on the scratch-board. I think that is pretty weird already, but that`s the way it was.
This is what it looked on August 17, 1960 (during the audition on May 10 he seems not have had the guitar yet, he plays a acoustic guitar there):
(http://www.thecanteen.com/rosetti4.jpg)

For the famous photo session at Heiligengeistfeld etc. in November 1960 Paul features John`s guitar, no sight of the Solid 7.

On February 12, 1961 the Solid 7 has changed quite a bit - the scratch-board is gone and with it the pick-up`s and controls.
Thus this once electric guitar has become an acoustic one. Except that Paul has added the Roger/Höfner Pick-up that has been identified in this thread.
BWT this article here http://www.liverpoolbeat.com/articles/index.php/the-beatles/paul-mccartney/250-paul-mccartney-and-the-piano-guitar (http://www.liverpoolbeat.com/articles/index.php/the-beatles/paul-mccartney/250-paul-mccartney-and-the-piano-guitar) claims that Paul fitted a small Selmer microphone by the bridge and even shows a photo of one, even though it is clearly not the item in the photo of Paul with his Solid 7. Maybe there is some truth about the Selmer microphone story and one like it WAS used by Paul on a guitar, just not this one at this time.
Also noteable is the dark strip underneath the strings between the neck and the bridge. What is this? Without the scratch-board (or is it called pick-guard?) we should see the plain wood of the guitar body here, not this! Is it a hole or something put ON the body?
(http://www.beatlesource.com/savage/1961/61.02.12%20casbah/5.jpg)

Then in April 1961 Paul uses the Solid 7 again for a photo session. But the pick-up seems to have changed yet again!
(http://www.beatlesource.com/savage/1961/61.03.27%2007.02%20top%20ten/01%20Jergen%20Vollmer1/05.jpg)
I figured Xose is already on the hunt for the identy of this pick-up here:
http://www.vintaxe.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=8419&sid=519fc5592fbe749dc3049527d4366646 (http://www.vintaxe.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=8419&sid=519fc5592fbe749dc3049527d4366646)

After this Paul got his Höfner bass and the Solid 7 was not seen again. But isn`t it weird that everytime Paul was pictured with this guitar it had a different set-up?


Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on January 14, 2013, 09:59:40 PM
Hello Ken Wood,

Thank you very much for your very interesting post...

As you probably know, I wrote an article about this guitar, mainly thanks to the fact that I got a guitar like that one, an Elpico AC-52, FUMA type pickup + German cable, a 'black plastic strip', Selmer RL2 microphone and even three piano strings. You can see the photos at several posts on this forum...

Now, a few comments:

...The initial guitar had the pick-ups including the controls mounted on the scratch-board...


It's a Royal PP-2 assembly made by Egmond. In fact, is the first model of the Royal PP-2 assembly, discontinued in 1961 for the second one, i.e., the one with two pickups, but now with only two knobs plus two slides...

The pickups and the "plastic strip" are one-in-a-piece. The plastic strip on my Rosetti Solid 7 is white, while the one on McCartney's Solid 7 is black. That is why looks like a "hole" on top of guitar once lose the pickups, seen at The Casbah photos dated February 1961, and those Top Ten photos dated Spring 1961. I don't know if I have rightly explained myself...

...Thus this once electric guitar has become an acoustic one. Except that Paul has added the Roger/Höfner Pick-up that has been identified in this thread...


Correct. With a German type cable. So..., was the guitar on that session really plugued into an amp?? Some witnesses from their gigs in Merseyside area during end December 1960 and January 1961, confirmed that McCartney's guitar was not plugued at all into an amp. Why?? Perhaps that German plug was the reason...

...BWT this article here [url]http://www.liverpoolbeat.com/articles/index.php/the-beatles/paul-mccartney/250-paul-mccartney-and-the-piano-guitar[/url] ([url]http://www.liverpoolbeat.com/articles/index.php/the-beatles/paul-mccartney/250-paul-mccartney-and-the-piano-guitar[/url]) claims that Paul fitted a small Selmer microphone by the bridge and even shows a photo of one, even though it is clearly not the item in the photo of Paul with his Solid 7. Maybe there is some truth about the Selmer microphone story and one like it WAS used by Paul on a guitar, just not this one at this time...


I think there is a mistake in that story. Had McCartney a small pickup fitted by the bridge at those Casbah photos?? Yes, he had. Had McCartney a Selmer microphone at those Casbah photos?? Yes, he had. But the pickup fitted by the bridge was a FUMA type one -with German cable, this is important- and the Selmer -RL2 model- was in front of his mouth... to sing... I think the confussion comes from this fact...

..Also noteable is the dark strip underneath the strings between the neck and the bridge. What is this? Without the scratch-board (or is it called pick-guard?) we should see the plain wood of the guitar body here, not this! Is it a hole or something put ON the body?...


Cfr. supra. That dark strip is the "black plastic strip" of the Royal PP-2 pickup assembly -white plastic strip in my Rosetti Solid 7. You can even see the "lines" left by the pickups once unglued...

(http://www.beatlesource.com/savage/1961/61.02.12%20casbah/5.jpg)

...Then in April 1961 Paul uses the Solid 7 again for a photo session. But the pick-up seems to have changed yet again!...


Correct: DeArmond type pickup. And the guitar is fitted with six strings again, i.e., a regular guitar. No more a three -piano- strings bass...

There are still a few misteries about this guitar, but I recently found what I suspected two years ago: McCartney didn't get the guitar by 30 June 1960, as his HP contract states, but by beginning-middle June. What does this mean?? Amongst other facts, this means that McCartney's Solid 7 was firstly played by him at Grosvenor and/or Neston gigs...

I hope you can understand me as my English is very bad!!!

Best wishes,

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on January 15, 2013, 10:14:49 AM
Futurama, Höfner or Rosetti??:

(http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/4397/1358244505418.jpg)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on January 15, 2013, 10:52:53 AM
Just for comparison, 2nd and 3rd generation of Royal pickups assemblies:

(http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/6643/1358247912605.jpg)

(http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/3408/1358246810442.jpg)

The 1st generation of Royal PP-2 fitted on my guitar (=and McCartney's one):

(http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/8046/solid7elpicoii.jpg) (http://img718.imageshack.us/i/solid7elpicoii.jpg/)

The "plastic strip" is white in my guitar but black on McCartney's one...

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Ken Wood on January 15, 2013, 03:45:38 PM
Hello Ken Wood,

Thank you very much for your very interesting post...
Thanks for YOUR (and everybody helping) posts! I just tried to sum it up a bit for my own and possible others convienence.

As you probably know, I wrote an article about this guitar, mainly thanks to the fact that I got a guitar like that one, an Elpico AC-52, FUMA type pickup + German cable, a 'black plastic strip', Selmer RL2 microphone and even three piano strings. You can see the photos at several posts on this forum...
I saw that you wrote an article but wasn`t able to read the article itself as I don`t have that magazine. Would love to though - does it happen to be online somewhere?

The pickups and the "plastic strip" are one-in-a-piece. The plastic strip on my Rosetti Solid 7 is white, while the one on McCartney's Solid 7 is black. That is why looks like a "hole" on top of guitar once lose the pickups, seen at The Casbah photos dated February 1961, and those Top Ten photos dated Spring 1961. I don't know if I have rightly explained myself...
Absolutly - another minor mystery solved!

Correct. With a German type cable. So..., was the guitar on that session really plugued into an amp?? Some witnesses from their gigs in Merseyside area during end December 1960 and January 1961, confirmed that McCartney's guitar was not plugued at all into an amp. Why?? Perhaps that German plug was the reason...
The whole set-up looks very crude. There are only 3 strings instead of (a bass`s) four, they are not spaced evenly (must have been odd to play) plus the pickup seems to be shifted slightly downward, like not being fitted in the correct position.

I think there is a mistake in that story. Had McCartney a small pickup fitted by the bridge at those Casbah photos?? Yes, he had. Had McCartney a Selmer microphone at those Casbah photos?? Yes, he had. But the pickup fitted by the bridge was a FUMA type one -with German cable, this is important- and the Selmer -RL2 model- was in front of his mouth... to sing... I think the confussion comes from this fact...
Thanks for clearing that up - the photo and info in that article made it seem that that microphone is a rather small item as for to fit onto a guitar bridge somehow but in fact it is much bigger and indeed a singing microphone as pointed out by you and seen here as well.

Correct: DeArmond type pickup. And the guitar is fitted with six strings again, i.e., a regular guitar. No more a three -piano- strings bass...
I see you already found out the pick-up type! Bravo!

There are still a few misteries about this guitar, but I recently found what I suspected two years ago: McCartney didn't get the guitar by 30 June 1960, as his HP contract states, but by beginning-middle June. What does this mean?? Amongst other facts, this means that McCartney's Solid 7 was firstly played by him at Grosvenor and/or Neston gigs...
I didn`t even know there is a contract (maybe I should have checked "Beatles Gear"). How did you figure out that he got it even beforehand the contract?

I hope you can understand me as my English is very bad!!!
I understood you very well - your english is totally fine with me but then I`m no native speaker either.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on January 15, 2013, 04:26:27 PM
Hello Ken Wood,

Thank you very much again...

...I saw that you wrote an article but wasn`t able to read the article itself as I don`t have that magazine. Would love to though - does it happen to be online somewhere?...


The article was published four times and in four different shapes:

- In Spanish on Spanish Beatles magazine Beatles Garden, June 2010. This is the "short" versión, with few pictures and no footnotes. Some info here... (http://www.elforo.de/liverpool/viewtopic.php?t=3749&sid=580e2a678ef28aeb26d4777fd87a579a)

- In Dutch, on-line magazine Beatlesfanclub.nl (http://www.beatlesfanclub.nl/artikelen/uitgediepte-verhalen/5843), August 2010. I think it is no more avaliable, although maybe Bobber has more info about that...

- In English, on British magazine Beatles Unlimited, December 2010. A longer versión than the Spanish one but, again, with no footnotes. Some info here... (http://www.euroguitars.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1843)

- In English, on the second edition of Wim Markenhof, "Egmond": Guitar Factory in the Netherlands, Vianen, Markenhof, 2011. This is the complete version, with photos and footnotes. More info here... (http://www.egmondguitars.nl/the-book.html)

... Absolutly - another minor mystery solved!
The whole set-up looks very crude. There are only 3 strings instead of (a bass`s) four, they are not spaced evenly (must have been odd to play) plus the pickup seems to be shifted slightly downward, like not being fitted in the correct position...


Yes. IMHO, that off-center position is to accomodate the pickup braces to the bridge holes, i.e., to secure the pickup to the bridge by means of the bridge holes and the pickup braces...

... Thanks for clearing that up - the photo and info in that article made it seem that that microphone is a rather small item as for to fit onto a guitar bridge somehow but in fact it is much bigger and indeed a singing microphone as pointed out by you and seen here as well...


Correct. That is The point...

... I didn`t even know there is a contract (maybe I should have checked "Beatles Gear"). How did you figure out that he got it even beforehand the contract?...


Because the son of somebody who was at those gigs in Grosvenor told us a few months ago. Please: see eighth post in this thread... (http://www.dmbeatles.com/forums/index.php?topic=10302.msg299325)
The date of the HP contract is the "official" date of purchase. But it wasn't unusual to get the goods before, by means of a deposit. And: McCartney had returned back from Johnny Gentle's tour on end May, with some money into his pockets. Add to this a good amount of booked gigs in Grosvenor and Neston for June and July. Besides, his 18th birthday was on 18 June. Good moment to get a new -this time electric- guitar!!

I'm VERY happy to discuss these topics!!

Best!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Ken Wood on January 15, 2013, 05:25:34 PM
Futurama, Höfner or Rosetti??:

([url]http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/4397/1358244505418.jpg[/url])

Xosé

As seen in other photos from that day (August 17, 1960) the set-up was John: Club 40, Paul: Solid 7, George: Futurama, Stu: Höfner President
It can`t be the President (cause Stu is holding it) nor the Futurama (cause it had a massive head-plate), so that leaves the Club 40 or the Solid 7.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on January 15, 2013, 05:33:45 PM
Thank you Ken Wood!! ;)

As seen in other photos from that day (August 17, 1960) the set-up was John: Club 40, Paul: Solid 7, George: Futurama, Stu: Höfner President
It can`t be the President (cause Stu is holding it) nor the Futurama (cause it had a massive head-plate), so that leaves the Club 40 or the Solid 7.

Since it's positioned on the side of the drums where Lennon's guitar was plugged in, I'd guess the Club 40...

Best!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Ken Wood on January 15, 2013, 06:39:38 PM
Thanks again for your replies - just read through (and posted on) that other thread you linked to (about the Solid 7). Great stuff!
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on January 16, 2013, 10:03:37 AM
I remember McCartney playing the Rosetti, not plugged in...

This very valuable info was stated on this thread by Brian Griffiths, guitar player with Derry Wilkie and The Seniors at Kaiserkeller until 30 September 1960.

That would explain some facts...

I think I read somewhere an interview with Paul McCartney where he stated that his Rosetti got out of work a few weeks after going to Hamburg on 17 August 1960. Does anyone know something about this interview??

Thanks in advance and best wishes!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on January 17, 2013, 08:54:27 PM
Nice conversation going on here! And very interesting too.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on January 17, 2013, 08:56:45 PM
This very valuable info was stated on this thread by Brian Griffiths, guitar player with Derry Wilkie and The Seniors at Kaiserkeller until 30 September 1960.

That would explain some facts...

I think I read somewhere an interview with Paul McCartney where he stated that his Rosetti got out of work a few weeks after going to Hamburg on 17 August 1960. Does anyone know something about this interview??

Thanks in advance and best wishes!! ;)

Xosé


I read here that he bought it especially for the Hamburg trip. If you're thoughts are true, the guitar didn't last very long.

http://www.thecanteen.com/mccartney2.html (http://www.thecanteen.com/mccartney2.html)
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on January 18, 2013, 12:47:14 PM
Thank you very much, Bobber!! ;)

Only a question: do you know how could I find that 1964 interview??

Thanks in advance!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on January 18, 2013, 08:35:56 PM
Thank you very much, Bobber!! ;)

Only a question: do you know how could I find that 1964 interview??

Thanks in advance!! ;)

Xosé

I'll have a look aroud.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on January 18, 2013, 10:39:36 PM
I'll have a look aroud.

Great!! Thank you!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Hello Goodbye on January 19, 2013, 01:22:14 AM
The interview is in a 1964 issue of Beat Instrumental Monthly.  That narrows it down to issues 18 - 20 (October -December).
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on January 19, 2013, 08:57:57 AM
The interview is in a 1964 issue of Beat Instrumental Monthly.  That narrows it down to issues 18 - 20 (October -December).

Excellent, HG... Thank you very much!! ;)

I have issue 19, November 1964, and the interview is not there.... I will try to look for the right one...

Best!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on January 19, 2013, 09:30:52 AM
Looks like issue 18, October 1964:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Beat-Instrumental-Monthly-Magazine-Beatles-Stones-Hollies-Searchers-/200878911203?pt=UK_Magazines&hash=item2ec550eee3 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Beat-Instrumental-Monthly-Magazine-Beatles-Stones-Hollies-Searchers-/200878911203?pt=UK_Magazines&hash=item2ec550eee3)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on January 21, 2013, 02:08:08 PM
The interview is in a 1964 issue of Beat Instrumental Monthly.  That narrows it down to issues 18 - 20 (October -December).

You see, I have my personnel to do my research.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on March 22, 2013, 11:11:21 AM
Hi Xosé,
I figured you managed to identify the banjo in these photos ([url]http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/168216[/url] ([url]http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/168216[/url])). Great!
However in that forum you say the photos are from December 1960 - can you let me know how you did arrive at that date?
We ([url]http://beatlesdaybyday.freeforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=1420&t=6936[/url] ([url]http://beatlesdaybyday.freeforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=1420&t=6936[/url])) are currently trying to id this photo but never read a date for it.
Thanks!

Sorry everybody else if this question is taking the thread off topic for a moment!


(http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/1218/1363950628944.jpg)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on March 22, 2013, 11:35:22 AM
Interesting picture this.

Obviously taken around Christmas. This is The Cavern Club. Looking at Pauls hairstyle, this is not 1960 for The Beatles had not adopted the moptops by then. At Xmas 1962 they were in the Star Club, Hamburg. That leaves December 1961 as the most possible date. Unless John and Paul were there in 1963, not to have a gig, but joined in on some occasion. That sounds a bit unlikely to me however.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Xose on March 22, 2013, 11:47:37 AM
Interesting picture this.

Obviously taken around Christmas. This is The Cavern Club. Looking at Pauls hairstyle, this is not 1960 for The Beatles had not adopted the moptops by then. At Xmas 1962 they were in the Star Club, Hamburg. That leaves December 1961 as the most possible date. Unless John and Paul were there in 1963, not to have a gig, but joined in on some occasion. That sounds a bit unlikely to me however.

Thank you very much, Bobber!! ;)

So, we could say December 1961... Interesting...

Best!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on March 22, 2013, 01:10:55 PM
(http://liverpoolbeatlescene.com/images/birthday/banjo.jpg)
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Hello Goodbye on March 23, 2013, 03:11:19 AM
([url]http://liverpoolbeatlescene.com/images/birthday/banjo.jpg[/url])


Paul manages to hang onto his instruments from his youth.  At least he didn't paint it!


(http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrf3fkOkVv1qlrmvqo1_r2_500.jpg)



 ;D
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on January 06, 2015, 08:08:14 PM
The Mark Lewisohn books may have given Xose more insight.
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Ken Wood on January 07, 2015, 03:06:12 AM
That Santa suits photo has been dated as April 5, 1962 by Chazz here:
http://beatlesource.com/savage/1962/62.04.05%20cavern/62.04.05cavern.html (http://beatlesource.com/savage/1962/62.04.05%20cavern/62.04.05cavern.html)
Title: Re: The beginnings of Paul McCartney's bass playing
Post by: Bobber on January 07, 2015, 08:39:39 AM
That Santa suits photo has been dated as April 5, 1962 by Chazz here:
[url]http://beatlesource.com/savage/1962/62.04.05%20cavern/62.04.05cavern.html[/url] ([url]http://beatlesource.com/savage/1962/62.04.05%20cavern/62.04.05cavern.html[/url])


As Chazz notes as well, the picture is somewhat of a puzzle. It's dated on April 5 1962 because of the big sign 'The Beatles' in the back. It looks like it must have been a part of some kind of comic act by John and Paul.