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Author Topic: Memory Almost Full is so LOUD!  (Read 5300 times)

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thefadedline

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Memory Almost Full is so LOUD!
« on: June 24, 2008, 02:16:13 AM »

I know this has been discussed elsewhere but I thought the waveform-graphics would be interesting for some of you to see!

I was listening to Memory Almost Full today and noticed that it sounded really dead compared to his previous albums. Dead as in no dynamics, no clarity, no LIFE! A really claustrophobic sound, if that makes any sense.

Here's the waveform for 'Band on the Run' (Wingspan version):



And here's the waveform for 'See Your Sunshine' (Memory Almost Full):



Notice the difference?! Band on the Run has tons of headroom, plenty of natural dynamics with no destroyed sound. See Your Sunshine is just one constant block of sound, with no drop in volume throughout.

I hate the volume-war going on within the music industry today. It destroys the sound. I don't think it's fair. I didn't think Macca would have actually allowed this to be done to his work! Don't get me wrong, the songs are great! But the sound is just so poor. It needs be remixed badly! Such a great drop from 'Chaos and Creation'.

More information here: http://www.cdmasteringservices.com/dynamicdeath.htm.
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Geoff

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Re: Memory Almost Full is so LOUD!
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2008, 05:04:43 AM »

Interesting; it perhaps explains why pop music often sounds "murky" to me these days: I'd assumed it was just the sound de jour of producers. I've noticed the increasing volume of CDs of course (who hasn't?), but I had no idea they were systematically demolishing the very thing they were trying to reproduce in order to get this volume (or should I say noise?) level.  :-/
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An Apple Beatle

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Re: Memory Almost Full is so LOUD!
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2008, 09:31:58 AM »

interesting comparison. The bottom wav looks like it has been compressed and then expanded to it's maximum. it's all digitally achieved whereas normally, it's the analogue reel to reel tape recordings that naturally take up more of the bandwidth.

I don't remember the exact decibel figures but rather than being maxed at say -1 decibel, technology is such where higher decibel mastering is possible without distortion. In the case of MAF it seems the joys of pro-tools digitalness are at hand rather than 70's analogue as used with Wings.
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thefadedline

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Re: Memory Almost Full is so LOUD!
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2008, 01:26:26 PM »

A sound signal's limit is 0dB. Once a sound passes this limit it is destroyed forever, in the form of distortion, clipping and that horrid dead-sound. There are no natural dynamics. It's unfixable. So if his producer recorded the album at this volume, I don't think a remaster will ever be in the works as most people find it unlistenable.

I don't understand the need to do it. After all, people who buy Paul McCartney CD's do so because the genuinely enjoy his music. Most kids these days are hardly into him, are they? All the producer/engineer have done is ruin what could have been a great album. In some tracks, it's compressed to the point that even the drum's natural ring-out is almost identical in volume to the original hit (which sounds good in modern trip-hop music but not in Macca's stuff)!
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wingsman

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Re: Memory Almost Full is so LOUD!
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2008, 04:30:04 PM »

You're totally right about your comments thefadedline.
Just a month ago I realized that having CDs with so loud volume is not a good thing as I always thought. The only good thing is that if you got a CD player that can't play music on a listenable volume (or at least much less than you want), generally an old portable CD player, you can listen it better having a CD with really loud volume. But that's it. That's the only thing.
CD's from today sucks, really, in volume terms. The only good is the much much better quality of the remasters in terms of brightness of the sound. I mean, "Love Me Do" sounds much better in "1" than "Please Please Me".
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BlueMeanie

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Re: Memory Almost Full is so LOUD!
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2008, 04:40:57 PM »

The vinyl actually sounds pretty good to my ears, so I don't think it was anything in the recording.
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thefadedline

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Re: Memory Almost Full is so LOUD!
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2008, 05:29:22 PM »

That's because vinyl is analogue and doesn't have the 0dB limit that was highly surpassed on the CD/download version, which are both digital. Yet another benefit to owning vinyl over CD.

I'm so scared that this will happen to The Beatles' back-catalogue when it's eventually remastered/rereleased.
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dcowboys107

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Re: Memory Almost Full is so LOUD!
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2008, 05:54:34 PM »

Quote
I'm so scared that this will happen to The Beatles' back-catalogue when it's eventually remastered/rereleased.

Yeah I know what you mean, but money talks.
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thefadedline

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Re: Memory Almost Full is so LOUD!
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2008, 08:40:15 PM »

It defeats the meaning. Surely a remaster is to improve the sound quality! Clowns.
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wingsman

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Re: Memory Almost Full is so LOUD!
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2008, 11:12:11 PM »

Well, listen... If you check it closely, you'll find that, generally, remasters from old recordings (greatest hits compilations or re-issues) use to include a not-so-loud volume.

For example, the "Band on the Run" waveform that thefadedline showed us is from 2001... In 2001 "new" recordings were at a really louder volume than that one. You know what I mean? If we look at the waveform of any song from "Driving Rain" (which was released also in 2001) you'll notice a bigger, much bigger volume level.

So, I think Apple is gonna do a good work on the remasters, if someday will exist....

IMO, the real problem today are the NEW recordings...
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thefadedline

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Re: Memory Almost Full is so LOUD!
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2008, 04:36:52 AM »

I know what you mean, wingsman, but it's unavoidable: music is getting louder, and that includes with remasters.

The following waveform is that of "Something" from Abbey Road, throughout it's various re-releases.



The first is taken from the 1983 Japanese Release of Abbey Road. The second is taken from the 1987 worldwide CD remasters. The third is taken from the 1993 reissue of 1967-1970. The fourth is taken from the 2000 compilation album, 1.

But I'm sure you all see the ongoing pattern. The next logical progression is 'louder'! It's gonna be a nightmare.
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An Apple Beatle

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Re: Memory Almost Full is so LOUD!
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2008, 02:31:39 PM »

Nice demonstration of. :)
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BlueMeanie

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Re: Memory Almost Full is so LOUD!
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2008, 04:40:55 PM »

Quote from: 4
That's because vinyl is analogue and doesn't have the 0dB limit that was highly surpassed on the CD/download version, which are both digital.  

So therefore it's in the mastering, not the recording. Which was your worry wasn't it?
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alexis

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Re: Memory Almost Full is so LOUD!
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2008, 04:46:47 PM »

Quote from: 4
I know what you mean, wingsman, but it's unavoidable: music is getting louder, and that includes with remasters.

The following waveform is that of "Something" from Abbey Road, throughout it's various re-releases.



The first is taken from the 1983 Japanese Release of Abbey Road. The second is taken from the 1987 worldwide CD remasters. The third is taken from the 1993 reissue of 1967-1970. The fourth is taken from the 2000 compilation album, 1.

But I'm sure you all see the ongoing pattern. The next logical progression is 'louder'! It's gonna be a nightmare.


Fantastic posts thefadedline!

For those that are just learning about this - there are really two issues in play here that change/degrade the music between the time it leaves the musician's fingers/vocal chords and the time it gets to our ears: a) compression, and b) clipping. Remember, "loud" and "soft" are just subjective terms, and there is no right or wrong with either. If a listener has a problem - reach for the volume knob on your radio/CD player! The problem comes where, in the recording/mastering process, the music is intentionally changed from what the musicians played/sang and wanted us to hear, or even partially destroyed - all so that it can sound louder than the competitor's CD (evil icon here).

Compression is not an inherently evil process, it's been used for decades, it was even one of the Beatles' favorite production techniques (they liked the Fairchild 670). One of its original purposes was to make sure that really soft passages didn't get overpowered by louder ones that came before or after it. One example would be a vocalist who can't help but sing certain notes loud, and others soft (as opposed to doing that intentionally for musical/artistic effect). So, in that example, compression would be used to make the overall vocal track more even in terms of volume. Another common example is the bass guitar where some notes are played unintentionally louder than others. What compression does here is "compress" or squash the loud passages down so they are closer in volume to the soft passages, and the overall volume is the same throughout the track.

But wait ...  wouldn't this make the song softer, I thought we were talking about problems with the songs being too loud?! Right, there is a second part of compression that takes place after the "squashing" of the loud passages -that is to then make the whole newly compressed song louder (this part is called "make up gain ", and no, it doesn't refer to the benefits of saying you're sorry to your boyfriend/girlfriend!). So now, you might have a song that at it's loudest is the same as before being compressed, but - the soft bits, which have also been made louder, are now closer in volume to the loud bits. Voila, a vocal track that is relatively even in terms of volume. As it turns out, the whole vocal track sounds louder than before, so this process is heavily used in music production/mastering nowadays. It's important to realize that this comes at the expense of there not being as much variation in volume throughout the vocal track. That can be useful as in this example, but it would fight against you if the volume variations were intentionally being done for musically expressive purposes.

So where's the problem? If it's too loud, can't we just turn the volume down a bit?

Well, when compression is used/overused, there are two things that happen to the music that can't be fixed by twiddling the volume knob.   The first one is that all the music on the song is at the same volume. Imagine if in a song like "I'm So Tired" the first bit ("I'm so tired ...") was just as loud as the chorus ("You'd say, ...") . That whole contrast between soft and loud that helps make the song work so well is lost, and now it's just not as interesting/good. Lots of other songs are great in part because of variations in volume throughout the song (another example is "Happiness is a Warm Gun", contrast the beginning ("She's not a girl ...") with the middle and later parts of the song. The whole thing builds up, almost certainly intentionally, to AWESOME effect). Then, imagine if this constant volume process were applied to a whole album/CD ... the brain just interprets that as less interesting than where there are variations in dynamics/loudness (imagine if "Yesterday" sounded just as loud as "I'm Down"!). Incidentally, this is also one of the things that separate a garage band from a better one - thrashing all the songs at the same volume generally doesn't sound as good as soft/loud variations.

The second way compression can ruin a song (in other words, have us hear something different than the musician wanted to play/sing)  is that, in an effort to make the records louder, the process intentionally destroys some of the digital musical information! Just so the record producer can win the "loudness war" against his/her competitor! Remember that make up gain we talked about, the 2nd part of the compression process? Well, if the make up gain is too high, then you can imagine that the peaks of the music get pushed up to the top of those little screens in the incredibly cool posts above by thefadedline , and then when you turn the make up gain higher still , that's where clipping occurs. What that simply means is that the peaks get clipped off - and that bit of music is lost forever! If you do this too much, it sounds like distortion. Why would someone intentionally do that? It's so that the record sounds louder. The producers/mastering engineers of music today have figured out to a fine art how much they can push this before distortion becomes apparent, and they go right up to that point. Sure, there's no distortion, but we are not hearing everything that the musicians are playing/singing!

So, for real life examples, let's look at some of those examples that thefadedline posted (fantastic examples, dude!). For "Something", clearly each successive mastering is getting louder. If that were all that was happening, not a problem - if it's too loud, turn the volume down. Or, if it's still not loud enough, turn it up! Either way, there is no information lost, no degradation of the signal (until you turn it so loud that your loudspeaker shreds!). The real question is, is that all that is happening, or are we losing some of the musicianship due to compression?  Well, it's hard to tell for sure without without hearing it, but by eye it looks like the differences between the softest and loudest portions are reasonably well preserved between 1983 and 1993. So, some compression may have been used (rather than just turning the gain up at the mastering process), but maybe it wasn't overdone. But look at 2003 ... can you tell which part was supposed to be softer and which part louder? Most people might say, "heck no!".  That is a good example of what some people would say is overcompressed - no loud, no soft, just everything at the same volume. Is that how George wanted the song to sound?

Now, that is not as bad as the waveform for "See Your Sunshine". Two things to look for here. First, what is the variation in volume throughout the song? Take a look at the blue part (where the song is) - is there any variation in size of the blue (which translates into variation in volume while listening) from one portion of the song to another? To be kind - not much!  It looks like there is about as little change in volume throughout the song as in the 2003 version of "Something". This makes the song less interesting musically. Yes, it allows it to sound louder on playback ($$ to the producer, they believe), but it is less interesting, and probably not the way the composer wanted it to sound. We can't be certain about that last bit, but most songs are written and played with some noticeable variation in volume, even if it's just playing a tad bit louder in the chorus than the verse.

But the other thing here is more significant. Look at the top and bottom edges of the track. You see where there is no white, only blue? At those portions (looks like the vast majority of the song!), the peaks are almost certainly clipped off, and musical information is lost here. Why, Paul?

I did the same thing on my Cubase when Chaos and Creation came out, I loved the song "Friends to Go" so I wanted to check it out a bit. It started out soft, then got loud, awesome, that is one of the things that drew me to the song in the first place (nice acoustic stuff at the beginning, then killer bass/kick drum at the middle to the end). That is great, a classic use of "louder" - as a contrast to another part that is "softer", to keep the song interesting.  BUT, towards the end, it got clipped, i.e., the make up gain was so high that the peaks were cut off ... information lost forever  :( ). We'll never know (until/unless it is remastered) what Paul wanted to have us hear there. I couldn't believe that he would allow that. Maybe he's stopped paying attention to the "technical" stuff? Sad ...

All this is fantastically well described by one of the mastering gurus, Bob Katz on his webpage digido.com. Here are the direct links to two relevant articles:

http://www.digido.com/bob-katz/compression.html

http://www.digido.com/bob-katz/level-practices-part-1.html

Hope this helps someone who might be wondering about this stuff, and thanks again thefadedline for such awesome posts!
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Alexis

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Re: Memory Almost Full is so LOUD!
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2008, 04:59:00 PM »

Quote from: 483

So therefore it's in the mastering, not the recording. Which was your worry wasn't it?


We can't actually tell whether a song on these recently released CDs got clipped at the mastering vs tracking/recording stages. Those with access to the individual tracks can, and if it is ever remastered so that it isn't clipped then we'll know it was recorded fine. Gotta assume it was recorded fine (why else would you pay top dollar to a recording studio if they did just what every Tom, Dick, and Harry can do in their own bedroom studio?), but who knows? The bottom line is that, no matter at what point in the process the clipping occurred, we have it on our CDs.
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thefadedline

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Re: Memory Almost Full is so LOUD!
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2008, 10:05:34 PM »

Quote from: 483

So therefore it's in the mastering, not the recording. Which was your worry wasn't it?

Well, having not heard the vinyl version, I can't make a decision on the difference in sound against digital formats. They could both sound identical, but that may sound good to you. Or, it may indeed have a much better sound quality than on CD.

If they do sound identical in quality, it occurred during recording. If it sounds superior in quality, the problem lies within the mastering.

And thank you, alexis, for your brilliant reply. Your are 100% spot-on in everything you said. I agree with every word.

I have two theories as to why I think this terrible process happened on a Macca album: either Paul has stopped dabbling in production/engineering when it comes to his music for some reason (and paid someone who didn't care enough to do it for him), or he doesn't have the hearing he once had, so it may all just sound the same to him as recording Abbey Road did.

Dynamics are a massive part of music. To remove them from a recording is outrageous. Clipped sounds lose their original tone (or timbre) so, on this album, you're not actually hearing Macca's voice to it's full potential, along with the pianos, guitars... everything! You may as well listen to the album on a 25 year old cassette-tape or through discount loudspeakers.

I sometimes wish albums were sold as raw multi-track recordings, so I could mix/master the album to my own standards.
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alexis

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Re: Memory Almost Full is so LOUD!
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2008, 05:10:58 AM »

Quote from: 4

Well, having not heard the vinyl version, I can't make a decision on the difference in sound against digital formats. They could both sound identical, but that may sound good to you. Or, it may indeed have a much better sound quality than on CD.

If they do sound identical in quality, it occurred during recording. If it sounds superior in quality, the problem lies within the mastering.

And thank you, alexis, for your brilliant reply. Your are 100% spot-on in everything you said. I agree with every word.

I have two theories as to why I think this terrible process happened on a Macca album: either Paul has stopped dabbling in production/engineering when it comes to his music for some reason (and paid someone who didn't care enough to do it for him), or he doesn't have the hearing he once had, so it may all just sound the same to him as recording Abbey Road did.

Dynamics are a massive part of music. To remove them from a recording is outrageous. Clipped sounds lose their original tone (or timbre) so, on this album, you're not actually hearing Macca's voice to it's full potential, along with the pianos, guitars... everything! You may as well listen to the album on a 25 year old cassette-tape or through discount loudspeakers.

I sometimes wish albums were sold as raw multi-track recordings, so I could mix/master the album to my own standards.


Like this?!  http://blogs.siliconvalley.com/gmsv/2008/03/nine_inch_nails_and_the_multitrack_music_model.html

My goodness, wouldn't it be beyond cool if we could buy Beatles albums like that!!

What you said about Paul ... so sad, either way. He was the one who was the most inquisitive about what George Martin, Normal Smith, and Geoff Emerick were doing, you can hear it in his albums like Ram (does anyone know who produced that?). He should hire George Martin's son to do the next album - he won't steer Paul wrong!

And you're very welcome for the post. Yours was really the great one, picture worth a thousand words and all. Though I'm just a home recording hobbyist, I fully agree with all your sentiments, and hope that Bob Katz wins his crusade. The more people that know about this the better, and what better place to reach music lovers that might not have thought about these things than on this fine forum!
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Re: Memory Almost Full is so LOUD!
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2008, 05:21:01 AM »

Quote from: 568
Ram (does anyone know who produced that?).


Producers are credited as Paul and Linda McCartney.

http://www.macca-central.com/albums/ram/index.php
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thefadedline

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Re: Memory Almost Full is so LOUD!
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2008, 12:16:20 PM »

I think Trent Reznor has been doing that for a while. You won't believe this alexis, but one of my college-projects a few years ago was to remix the song 'The Hand That Feeds' by Nine Inch Nails, using a multi-track version. It was so fun and liberating being able to set the song to my own standards! I can't listen to the original master of that song now, as I prefer my own mix, haha!
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