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Other forums => Current Affairs => Topic started by: Mairi on June 11, 2008, 08:35:21 PM

Title: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Mairi on June 11, 2008, 08:35:21 PM
A bit late in posting but I figured someone else would have mentioned it by now.

Way to go, California! I hope many more states will follow suit. :)
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: HeatherBoo on June 11, 2008, 11:56:52 PM
Yes, let's see if it will last this time around.

I don't see what the big deal is (I mean the anti-gay marriage issue).  Why do people care what two consenting adults want to do behind closed doors?  Not only that but people say that god wouldn't want it that way... Well if you really believe that then those people will have to oneday answer to god so let them worry about it.  

I think it will stick this time too.  Which I think is great  8)


Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: somedude210 on June 12, 2008, 12:51:27 AM
yeah, well since massachusetts legalized it (once the "Bay State" now we're the "Gay State") the sky hasn't fallen and the world hasn't collapsed in on itself, so i dont think legalizing it was such a bad thing now, dont think?
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: somedude210 on June 12, 2008, 12:51:50 AM
we're still the most liberal state in the Union
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: HeatherBoo on June 12, 2008, 01:07:27 AM
Being that we are still the most liberal state in the union, it is hard to believe a few years ago we voted no on gay marriage!  But like I said I think this time around it will stick.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: somedude210 on June 12, 2008, 06:41:13 PM
oh no, i meant massachusetts is the most liberal state in the Union.

and we were founded by a bunch of tight asses, even the british kicked them out
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: HeatherBoo on June 13, 2008, 01:31:44 AM
Oh sorry I thought you were talking about California :)
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on June 25, 2008, 10:29:36 AM
Thumbs up for California!
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: alexis on June 25, 2008, 05:58:05 PM
Quote from: 56
Thumbs up for California!

 ;) ?

Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on June 27, 2008, 11:36:54 AM
You pervert.   ;)
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: HeatherBoo on June 28, 2008, 05:28:36 AM
I find it amusing that alot of men are against gay marriage yet they are all for two women...well I will keep it clean but you know what I am getting at.....
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: alexis on June 28, 2008, 03:56:17 PM
Quote from: 1204
I find it amusing that alot of men are against gay marriage yet they are all for two women...well I will keep it clean but you know what I am getting at.....

I think it is what gets the hormones pumping, little head doing the thinking so to speak.

Although, from a purely biological Darwinian point of view, hetero males should be happy that there are homosexual males - that is less competitiion for passing their genes down to the next generation.

Maybe it's just coincidence, but ... at least in the USA, the Religious Right is the main leader of the fight against homosexuality. Darwinianly speaking, one must wonder if there is some reason they are not looking out for their own genetic interests.

Perhaps some hyposexuality is associated with that group?

(In spanish ... no cojones!)
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Geoff on June 28, 2008, 04:23:08 PM
Quote from: 568
little head doing the thinking so to speak.

Great line.  ;D

The religious right has the same problem all Godly people do: they assume they know what God thinks and that they're entitled to act as His agents (or enforcers in this case) on Earth. That has to be the ultimate vanity, and isn't there something in the Bible about that?
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: HeatherBoo on June 28, 2008, 05:44:56 PM
Quote from: 1161

The religious right has the same problem all Godly people do: they assume they know what God thinks and that they're entitled to act as His agents (or enforcers in this case) on Earth. That has to be the ultimate vanity, and isn't there something in the Bible about that?

Amen to that!
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: aspinall_lover on June 28, 2008, 08:30:31 PM
That's cool that California legalized gay marriages.  I have a brother in law who is gay.....my husband's younger brother, Jay, and this doesn't bother me.  Good for California.  Oh, by the way.............Jay is one of the BEST waiters in town..........par excellent!!!!
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Geoff on June 29, 2008, 01:29:52 AM
No doubt among others, I've noticed that since that California decision came down all those Republicans who were such fervent advocates of "states' rights" because they don't like the power of federal government are starting to look a lot more fondly at Washington, or at least the Supreme Court. So here we go.... :-/
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Sondra on June 29, 2008, 09:59:24 AM
Don't get too excited! This decision was made by the California Supreme Court (in a 4 to 3 ruling). So, guess what, not everyone had such a great reaction to the court "abandoning its role as an objective interpreter of the law and instead legislating from the bench." So, the decision will go to the people.

The November ballot will include a constitutional amendment limiting marriage to unions between men and women. So if more than half of California voters approve the measure, it could neutralize last month's state Supreme Court ruling.

While I AGREE with the decision of the court, I'm not sure if I agree with how it was done. The Judicial branch is supposed to INTERPRET the laws, not make them.

From the LA Times:
The three dissenting justices argued that it was up to the electorate or the Legislature to decide whether gays should be permitted to marry.

"In my view, California should allow our gay and lesbian neighbors to call their unions marriage," Justice Carol A. Corrigan wrote in the first sentence of her dissent.

"But I, and this court, must acknowledge that a majority of Californians hold a different view and have explicitly said so by their vote. This court can overrule a vote of the people only if the Constitution compels us to do so. Here, the Constitution does not."

Justice Marvin R. Baxter, joined by Justice Ming W. Chin, said the ruling "creates the opportunity for further judicial extension of this perceived constitutional right into dangerous territory."

"Who can say that in 10, 15 or 20 years, an activist court might not rely on the majority's analysis to conclude, on the basis of a perceived evolution in community values, that the laws prohibiting polygamous and incestuous marriages were no longer constitutionally justified?" Baxter wrote.

Okay, Baxter's probably being an alarmist here, but he makes a valid point. If you can look at it objectively, without any agenda getting in the way. Anyway, I say leave it to the people to decide. I have faith in my fellow Californians! I think...
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Mairi on June 29, 2008, 06:36:14 PM
Hmmm, interesting. I have to say that while I agree with gay marriage I think that everything should be put to a fair vote. I have a hard time believing that the Republican vote in Cali is very large, though. So it will all probably work out for the best.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: tkitna on June 30, 2008, 03:25:18 AM
All I can say is, i'm glad I dont live in Massachusetts or California. Sorry, just dont believe in it.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on June 30, 2008, 01:57:13 PM
Quote from: 373
All I can say is, i'm glad I dont live in Massachusetts or California. Sorry, just dont believe in it.

But how would it affect you if gay marriage would be legalized in your state? And if you don't believe in something doesn't mean you can't tolerate it, right?

Maybe the thought of two men having sex seems disgusing to you but well... The thought of people over 70 having sex doesn't seem like a very pretty picture to me either, but you won't hear me say that people over 70 shouldn't be allowed to be married...
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: HeatherBoo on July 01, 2008, 02:03:32 AM
Everyone is allowed their own opinions.  That is why we are so lucky to live in this country where it is ok to have one.  
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 01, 2008, 07:54:04 AM
I didn't say that Tkitna isn't allowed to have his opinion, but he posted a statement and since this is a discussion forum I responded to that.

It just doesn't make any sense to me that a country that pounds itself on the chest for being 'The Land of the Free' is still so uptight about letting people do something that they want to do and that doesn't harm anyone in any way. Freedom of speech is nice, but isn't freedom of lifestyle even more important (as actions speak louder than words)? Homophobia is usually religiously motivated (either that, or just plain macho chauvinism, I can't really think of another reason to be homophobic) and didn't America have a separation of church and state?

Of course I'm glad I live in a country where I have freedom of speech. But I'm also very glad that I live in a country where mutual love in any form is accepted. Where any relationship between two mature people, be it a man and a woman or two men or two women, is acknowledged on the same level. Where homosexuals aren't insulted by some law that says that their relationships aren't as 'real' as a heterosexual relationship. Love is love.

'The Land of the Free'? Yeah, you're free to be christian, patriotic and heterosexual...
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Jane on July 01, 2008, 08:20:14 PM
Quote from: 1204
Everyone is allowed their own opinions.  That is why we are so lucky to live in this country where it is ok to have one.  

You are right and Joost seems to be very hard on people. He was hard on me too. Let people say what they feel like saying. It`s ok.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 01, 2008, 08:41:51 PM
Quote from: 1393

You are right and Joost seems to be very hard on people. He was hard on me too. Let people say what they feel like saying. It`s ok.

Sorry, I sincerely apologize if it seems like I am that way. I can assure you that I'm not. But this is just a subject that I'm very passionate about. And about the thing in the Beach Boys topic, well... Maybe I came off a little harsh, but I hope you see what I meant there.

You should realize that just like Tkitna I too am just expressing my opinion. If he can do it, so can I, right? And I'm not saying Tkitna isn't allowed to have his opinion. It's just that homophobia makes me sad. Life is hard enough as it is, we shouldn't waste our time on telling people who aren't harming anyone that how they live or what they do is wrong. I have a few friends who are homosexual and I know that their love for their partners isn't a lesser kind of love than the love between a woman and a man. But if you tell a homosexual couple that they don't have the same rights as a heterosexual couple, that's exactly what you're basically telling them: that their love isn't as 'real' as heterosexual love.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Jane on July 01, 2008, 09:00:45 PM
Joost!!! You are very nice! and i know that we are all very touchy at times and sensitive. And on that subject you give very good, well-founded arguments, cause everybody has the right to be happy, to love and to be loved. every living creature. Why deprive people of love? Love is what matters, love is what everybody seeks in their lives, love is what gives sense to one`s life. Why be cruel?
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Sondra on July 01, 2008, 10:33:28 PM
Quote from: 56

'The Land of the Free'? Yeah, you're free to be christian, patriotic and heterosexual...

Come on now. You know better than that. Change takes time you know and at least it's up for discussion. Not so in a lot of places. Look back at history and put things in perspective. A lot of change has taken place in a relatively short time. No one seems to remember this. It's always doom and gloom. Try going with the glass half full attitude sometimes.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Geoff on July 01, 2008, 11:00:29 PM
Quote from: 56
It just doesn't make any sense to me that a country that pounds itself on the chest for being 'The Land of the Free' is still so uptight about letting people do something that they want to do and that doesn't harm anyone in any way. Freedom of speech is nice, but isn't freedom of lifestyle even more important (as actions speak louder than words)? Homophobia is usually religiously motivated (either that, or just plain macho chauvinism, I can't really think of another reason to be homophobic) and didn't America have a separation of church and state?

Of course I'm glad I live in a country where I have freedom of speech. But I'm also very glad that I live in a country where mutual love in any form is accepted. Where any relationship between two mature people, be it a man and a woman or two men or two women, is acknowledged on the same level. Where homosexuals aren't insulted by some law that says that their relationships aren't as 'real' as a heterosexual relationship. Love is love.

I agree.  :)

Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Sondra on July 01, 2008, 11:33:55 PM
Hey, why do we have to have marriage in the fist place. It's an archaic ritual. Yes, there's legal stuff to be considered, but everyone has a right to that. Anyway, it's an outdated social convention. You can LOVE a person and be COMMITTED to a person without having a piece of paper to prove it. Again, financial things are different and of course should be taken care of anyway. There are ways to do this.

And to have government approval is great and all, but really, if your family and friends acknowledge your life style and who you choose to love, then that's what's most important. My government could kiss my ass otherwise. They're wrong about so much anyway that I don't put a whole lot of stock in what they choose to accept and not to accept. People have the freedom to live as they choose anyway. Legalities are never going to be perfect. We are moving forward though and that's what's important.

But yes, I understand that it's a right people want. Must be married. Must be like everyone else.

I know I'm not expressing this correctly, but oh well.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Sondra on July 01, 2008, 11:51:54 PM
Quote from: 56
I didn't say that Tkitna isn't allowed to have his opinion, but he posted a statement and since this is a discussion forum I responded to that.

It just doesn't make any sense to me that a country that pounds itself on the chest for being 'The Land of the Free' is still so uptight about letting people do something that they want to do and that doesn't harm anyone in any way. Freedom of speech is nice, but isn't freedom of lifestyle even more important (as actions speak louder than words)? Homophobia is usually religiously motivated (either that, or just plain macho chauvinism, I can't really think of another reason to be homophobic) and didn't America have a separation of church and state?

.

There's SO much more to human nature than this as to what makes a person feel comfortable or uncomfortable. You can't fully understand a human being from one statement or one feeling. And to expect people to only feel the way you feel they should feel or think the way you think they should think on such matters is just as intolerant an attitude to take on as the one you're taking issue with.

Not to say that this is what you're implying. I'm just saying that if you live with other human beings, then you have to accept that people will have different ways of looking at things. This does not always mean they are bad or ignorant or phobic. You really don't know unless you take the time to know them. And if you find out that they think certain things or feel certain ways for reasons you don't agree with, you then have the choice to not associate with them. But at least there would be discussion and some sort of attempt to understand the individual based on more than a couple of statements.  
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: HeatherBoo on July 02, 2008, 12:35:51 AM
Oh I wasn't coming down on anyone! I am happy that everyone is sharing their thoughts even if I do not agree with them. I just meant that we should all be happy that we can think for ourselves and not have to worry about getting in trouble for it.  

And as time goes one, things change and people change.  I think sometimes people get set in their ways (the way it was when they were young, what was acceptable then and what was not) and so that's why it takes time for things to change because some people are really against change.  Now that the younger generation can vote and homosexuality has been more open during their lifetime,  they are more willing to be for it rather than against it like the older generation who, when they were younger, it was not as accepted.  
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 02, 2008, 06:59:23 AM
Quote from: 216
Come on now. You know better than that. Change takes time you know and at least it's up for discussion. Not so in a lot of places. Look back at history and put things in perspective. A lot of change has taken place in a relatively short time. No one seems to remember this. It's always doom and gloom. Try going with the glass half full attitude sometimes.

you're free to be christian,
OK, let me rephrase that to Christian or Jewish. 78% Of all Americans are Christian or Jewish... 100% of all senators are Christian or Jewish. So that's 30 million atheists, 6 million Buddhists, 1 million Muslims and 1 million Hindus without any representatives. Or a chance to ever get a high political position. They're even using it against Obama now that his father was born a Muslim.

patriotic
Remember what happend to the Dixie Chicks?

and heterosexual
See above.

I know that not nearly all Americans are that close minded, but fact is that life is easier if you're christian, patriotic and heterosexual.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Sondra on July 02, 2008, 08:10:53 AM
Okay, I see we're coming from two entirely different places here so I'm just going to bow out. I totally respect where you're coming from and hope you don't judge me on my nationality. Yes, this country is not perfect, but then what country is? Especially one as huge. I just don't get what people want. Personally, I think it's going in the right direction. Has been for quite some time. Slowly YES and with many bumps along the way! Especially these last, uh, eight or so years. But again, it's the people that count and the people are becoming more enlightened and are slowly seeing to it that things are moving forward.

Remember, this country isn't that old and if you stack its history up against any other country I feel we'd all come out a bit tarnished. Change doesn't happen overnight, but it does happen. And it is happening. It's a fact.

PS
The Dixie Chicks are just obnoxious anyway and they play to an audience that they KNOW doesn't believe what they believe in. I think they're hypocrites in that sense and it was probably more of a publicity stunt than we realize. There's been plenty of artists that have protested and haven't had that kind of negative feedback. Part of the reason is how it was done and by who. There's a big picture to be looked at there. Doubtful that Bob Dylan or someone of his talent and reputation would have gotten the same flack. But then he would have done it in a way more intelligent way. Not like some chick trying to be hip for the sake of record sales and coolness.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 02, 2008, 08:20:31 AM
Quote from: 216
Change doesn't happen overnight, but it does happen. And it is happening. It's a fact.

I hope you're right. I'll be a bit more optimistic if Obama will be elected.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 02, 2008, 08:33:22 AM
But we're getting too far off topic and I should really try to be a bit less offensive... Sorry for that.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Sondra on July 02, 2008, 09:27:07 AM
You weren't being offensive at all! It was a great discussion from everyone involved. And great discussions sometimes veer off topic I guess! Anyway, I hope I didn't offend anyone and I'm hope it was okay that I butt in in the middle of the conversation!

BTW, I realize that I'm probably way too much of an idealist when it comes to wishing the best from people. Which is weird because most of the time I don't feel I have much faith in mankind! Much of the time I feel like a big hypocrite myself when I go on about things getting better! Maybe I'm trying to talk myself into it or something.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: DaveRam on July 02, 2008, 09:53:18 AM
I've read what Jesus said and he never says anything about adults sexual preference .
Funny then so many people should second guess is attitude towards a matter he did'nt have an oppinion on .
 He lived in a time when it was quite the thing if you were a Roman solider to have a bit of man on man love , if he was hostile to it i'm sure he would have said ?
 His message was one of love .
Jesus kept his nose out of what adults did in the bedroom and i think we should all follow his lead .
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 02, 2008, 10:29:33 AM
Quote from: 216
You weren't being offensive at all!

In that case, wanna know what else is wrong with all you dumb, fat, ignorant Yankees?  ;)
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 02, 2008, 10:32:43 AM
Quote from: 971
I've read what Jesus said and he never says anything about adults sexual preference .
Funny then so many people should second guess is attitude towards a matter he did'nt have an oppinion on .
 He lived in a time when it was quite the thing if you were a Roman solider to have a bit of man on man love , if he was hostile to it i'm sure he would have said ?
 His message was one of love .
Jesus kept his nose out of what adults did in the bedroom and i think we should all follow his lead .

And even if Jesus didn't like gays, I'm pretty sure he never marched around with a "f**s will burn in hell" sign or anything like that. So why there are christians who do things like that is truely beyond me.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: DaveRam on July 02, 2008, 11:24:52 AM
They pick up on the couple of passages in the Bible that do mention it Joost .
But Jesus himself never mentions it , his teachings are clear love thy neighbour and let he who is without sin cast the first stone .
Also it's not one of the Ten Commandments .Only adultery warrents such a condemnation .
For me the words of Jesus and the Ten Commandments indicate God and Jesus are indifferent to homosexuality they don't have a clearly expressed opinion on the matter .
So i take from that it's OK to love thy neighbour so long as it's not someone else's wife .
Clear as mud as they say .
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Sondra on July 02, 2008, 05:40:17 PM
Quote from: 56

In that case, wanna know what else is wrong with all you dumb, fat, ignorant Yankees?  ;)

Nah, I can get that at just about any other site I visit! And do.  :-/


 :)
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Sondra on July 02, 2008, 05:43:07 PM
Quote from: 56

And even if Jesus didn't like gays, I'm pretty sure he never marched around with a "f**s will burn in hell" sign or anything like that. So why there are christians who do things like that is truely beyond me.

I'm pretty sure Allah doesn't teach his disciples to use car bombs and kill innocent people in his name either. There are lunatics in EVERY religion. And if there wasn't religion, there would STILL be lunatics that would hate other. They would just have to blame it on something else. And I think they would find something easily enough.



I tend to agree with this:

All ... religions show the same disparity between belief and practice, and each is safe till it tries to exclude the rest. Test each sect by its best or its worst as you will, by its high-water mark of virtue or its low-water mark of vice. But falsehood begins when you measure the ebb of any other religion against the flood-tide of your own. There is a noble and a base side to every history.-Thomas Wentworth Higginson

Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Jane on July 02, 2008, 06:49:07 PM
It`s interesting to hear Americans critisizing their democracy and especially human rights issues. I was sure that as far as human rights are concerned you were content with the state of affairs in your country. Are you?
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 02, 2008, 07:16:31 PM
Quote from: 1393
It`s interesting to hear Americans critisizing their democracy and especially human rights issues. I was sure that as far as human rights are concerned you were content with the state of affairs in your country. Are you?

I'm not an American so I can't speak for them, but I think that criticizing your own country and questioning every decision your government makes is the patriotic thing to do. If you truely care about your country, you're not going to let some guy who happens to be president for four years do to it whatever he wants. Your government is not your country. You don't have to be loyal to the politicians in charge to be loyal to your country.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Jane on July 02, 2008, 08:03:16 PM
I think this is an idealistic point of view. If things depended on people ,on the public the world would be different. In fact, not a lot depends on whether you let those in power do what they want or not. They will pursue their policy without asking your permission. People were against the war but the troops invaded Iraq, you see. Though on some issues, such as human rights, i thought America was ahead of other countries.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: DaveRam on July 02, 2008, 08:32:53 PM
I was reading the Gospel According To Matthew this afternoon and i just can't see from what Jesus said that homosexuality was an issue .
Adultery yes he is clear about that been wrong . He speaks about that during "The Sermon On The Mount "
 But he does'nt mention anything about homosexuals during his most famous speech to us .
So i don't understand why this issue is such a hot topic ?
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: somedude210 on July 03, 2008, 12:09:31 AM
Quote from: 216
Hey, why do we have to have marriage in the fist place. It's an archaic ritual. Yes, there's legal stuff to be considered, but everyone has a right to that. Anyway, it's an outdated social convention. You can LOVE a person and be COMMITTED to a person without having a piece of paper to prove it. Again, financial things are different and of course should be taken care of anyway. There are ways to do this.

And to have government approval is great and all, but really, if your family and friends acknowledge your life style and who you choose to love, then that's what's most important. My government could kiss my ass otherwise. They're wrong about so much anyway that I don't put a whole lot of stock in what they choose to accept and not to accept. People have the freedom to live as they choose anyway. Legalities are never going to be perfect. We are moving forward though and that's what's important.

But yes, I understand that it's a right people want. Must be married. Must be like everyone else.

I know I'm not expressing this correctly, but oh well.

remember, a government that gets to involved inevidably farks things up for the rest of us and makes it worse than it was. example: public education (at least in MA)
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: somedude210 on July 03, 2008, 12:13:07 AM
as for jesus and whatnot, even though i'm buddhist now, i was catholic not long ago so i still know my religious crap. If anyone ever tells you that Jesus said it was wrong for whoever to be with whoever, counter with, "jesus said to love thy neighbor, why won't you love me" and then proceed to walk into a gay, muslim bar :P
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: tkitna on July 03, 2008, 02:16:42 AM
Yes, i'm homophobic. My opinion on the matter is that its just not natural for two men or two women to be together. The bible states it also and thats enough for me.

I knew somebody once that actually came out and told me they were gay in my own home. He was asked to leave and to never come back, never call, and to never have contact with my children again and he hasent. I dont want my children around that especially in my home. Its bad enough that society pressures everybody into accepting it (along with it being ok to not believe in God), when in truth, they should be pushing for people to get to church. The lack of religion is why the worlds tunring to crap in my opinion.

Ok, feel free to have fun with this now.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 03, 2008, 07:01:32 AM
Quote from: 373
Yes, i'm homophobic. My opinion on the matter is that its just not natural for two men or two women to be together. The bible states it also and thats enough for me.

Homosexual people are born homosexual. There's no artificial process that makes them that way. So homosexuality is not unnatural. And even if it would be unnatural: so frickin what? Everything we do now that we didn't do 1000 years ago is unnatural. There's nothing natural about driving a car. There's nothing natural about staring at a computer screen every day from 9 to 5. There's nothing natural about wearing a suit and tie.

Quote from: 373
I knew somebody once that actually came out and told me they were gay in my own home. He was asked to leave and to never come back, never call, and to never have contact with my children again and he hasent.

Wow, I think that's just shocking... I really do. Homophobia is a form of discrimination and this is, in my book, a very serious case of discrimination. That's an extremely offensive, insulting thing to do to another human being.

Quote from: 373
I dont want my children around that especially in my home.

You know homosexuality isn't contagious, right? Of course you're free to raise your children the way you think is right, but what good is sticking your head in the sand ever going to do?

Quote from: 373
(along with it being ok to not believe in God)

So if people don't believe in God, they should be forced to?

Quote from: 373
The lack of religion is why the worlds tunring to crap in my opinion.

The towers didn't fall because of a lack of religion. Quite the contrary actually. And I don't think you can say that things were that much better in the Middle Ages, when the church was in charge.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: tkitna on July 03, 2008, 07:49:51 AM
Quote from: 56
Homosexual people are born homosexual. There's no artificial process that makes them that way. So homosexuality is not unnatural. And even if it would be unnatural: so frickin what? Everything we do now that we didn't do 1000 years ago is unnatural. There's nothing natural about driving a car. There's nothing natural about staring at a computer screen every day from 9 to 5. There's nothing natural about wearing a suit and tie.

You'll need to take your beliefs up with God.

Leviticus 18:22 - Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Pretty much states its unnatural right there.

Quote
Wow, I think that's just shocking... I really do. Homophobia is a form of discrimination and this is, in my book, a very serious case of discrimination. That's an extremely offensive, insulting thing to do to another human being.

Well, if discrimination is trying to protect my children from a certain behavior that is not normal, so be it.

Quote
You know homosexuality isn't contagious, right? Of course you're free to raise your children the way you think is right, but what good is sticking your head in the sand ever going to do?

Nothings contagious if you stay far enough away from it.

Quote
So if people don't believe in God, they should be forced to?

Force is a strong word. People that dont believe will be judged soon enough.

Quote
The towers didn't fall because of a lack of religion. Quite the contrary actually.

More political than anything in my opinion. I'm no Muslim expert, but unless somebody can scan where the Quran (sp?) stated that Americans were evil,,,i'm not buying it. Thats the same as saying Hitler was on a religious conquest during the war.

Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 03, 2008, 08:29:29 AM
Quote from: 373
You'll need to take your beliefs up with God.

Just because I don't share your religious beliefs doesn't mean I don't believe in God.

Quote from: 373
Leviticus 18:22 - Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

So far, nobody has been able to prove to me that the Bible (or the Qur'an, or the Torah, or the Bhagavad Gita) was written by God and not by human beings.

Quote from: 373
Force is a strong word. People that dont believe will be judged soon enough.

You believe that we will be judged by our beliefs. I believe we will be judged by our actions and by how we treat other people.

Quote from: 373
I'm no Muslim expert, but unless somebody can scan where the Quran (sp?) stated that Americans were evil,,,i'm not buying it.

Of course 9-11 was a religious and not a political thing. These were suicide attacts. The terrorists gave their lives because they were convinced that they were going to be rewarded in the afterlife.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: tkitna on July 03, 2008, 08:48:16 AM
Joost, I like a decent debate as much as the other person, but I need to concentrate on other things right now. With a topic like this, you have to expect somebody is going to look at it from another perspective. I just dont believe in it and never will. It's ok for us to disagree on this one. No matter what we type or feel, the other will not change their mind. I have to say peace and thanks for your point of view.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Sondra on July 03, 2008, 08:58:57 AM
Quote from: 373

You'll need to take your beliefs up with God.

Leviticus 18:22 - Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Pretty much states its unnatural right there.




Leviticus is the Old Testament. The old covenant. Jesus' teachings are what Christians base their religion on. The New Testament. You are supposed to follow His word. No? There are many things in the Old Testament that Jesus directly contradicts or outright abolishes. For example:

Old Testament: Leviticus 24:19-20: If anyone injures his neighbor, whatever he has done must be done to him: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. As he has injured the other, so he is to be injured.

Jesus, on the other hand, stated:

New Testament: Matthew 5:38
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 03, 2008, 08:59:48 AM
Quote from: 373
Joost, I like a decent debate as much as the other person, but I need to concentrate on other things right now. With a topic like this, you have to expect somebody is going to look at it from another perspective. I just dont believe in it and never will. It's ok for us to disagree on this one. No matter what we type or feel, the other will not change their mind. I have to say peace and thanks for your point of view.

OK, that's cool.

Believe whatever you want, all I can do is ask you that if you can't approve of homosexuality, please at least try to tolerate it. Discrimination never leads to anything positive.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: tkitna on July 03, 2008, 09:59:24 AM
Lets end this with a little bit of humor.

(http://images.despair.com/products/demotivators/compromise.jpg)     
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 03, 2008, 10:38:01 AM
 ;D

Good one...  8)
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: DaveRam on July 03, 2008, 11:06:44 AM
I always read Leviticus to be the priestly code and not really applicable to us underlings .
Most European christians don't for example go in for male circumcision and the eating of pork and rabbit is wide spread .
I don't know anybody that follows whats written in Leviticus to the letter .
I can see that incest is wrong .
But the rest of it seems arcane to me , i just don't follow the rituals and i doubt many people who call themselves christians do .
My family is christian (Methodist) and only one of us is circumcised for medical reasons , so does that mean that the three of us that are intact won't be going to heaven ? as we have not followed that law contained in Leviticus .
I come back to The Ten Commandments which does not mention homosexulality and Jesus not mentioning it .
Much of what is written in the Bible is the word of man and not the word of god .
For me Jesus is the main man and if he does'nt make a judgement on it ,  neither will i , i will carry on loving my gay friends and all the people i care about .
I just refuse to twist my faith into hate .

Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: BlueMeanie on July 03, 2008, 11:16:20 AM
Quote from: 971
I just refuse to twist my faith into hate.

I'm not religious at all, but if there were more people like you in the world Dave, it would be a much safer and happier place.

As long as Coldplay are banned!
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: DaveRam on July 03, 2008, 11:40:40 AM
Quote from: 483

I'm not religious at all, but if there were more people like you in the world Dave, it would be a much safer and happier place.

As long as Coldplay are banned!

Well on that note i'm off to snog my picture of Brian Epstein and The Beatles :

All You Need Is love , Love Is all You Need



(inlove3)(inlove3)(inlove3)(inlove3)(inlove3)(inlove3)(inlove3)
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: legthi on July 03, 2008, 11:43:00 AM
Quote from: 373
Yes, i'm homophobic. My opinion on the matter is that its just not natural for two men or two women to be together. The bible states it also and thats enough for me.

I knew somebody once that actually came out and told me they were gay in my own home. He was asked to leave and to never come back, never call, and to never have contact with my children again and he hasent. I dont want my children around that especially in my home. Its bad enough that society pressures everybody into accepting it (along with it being ok to not believe in God), when in truth, they should be pushing for people to get to church. The lack of religion is why the worlds tunring to crap in my opinion.

Ok, feel free to have fun with this now.


You are everything that is wrong with this world. You really have no idea how old-fashioned, ignorant and offensive what you just said is do you? Please, don't say anymore.

On another note, I agree with bluemeanie that coldplay should be banned !!
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 03, 2008, 11:54:16 AM
Quote from: 666
You are everything that is wrong with this world.

Let's try to stick to arguments and avoid personal attacks... I think's it's been a healthy discussion so far.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: legthi on July 03, 2008, 11:58:04 AM
Quote from: 56

Let's try to stick to arguments and avoid personal attacks... I think's it's been a healthy discussion so far.

Joost how can you say that, when what tkitna said could easily be interpreted as an insult or a personal attack towards me, or any other member of the board?? I can take that out of my post if you like, but that would not make us fair, and from you're comments I feel you probably even agree with me on this one.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 03, 2008, 12:09:35 PM
Quote from: 666
Joost how can you say that, when what tkitna said could easily be interpreted as an insult or a personal attack towards me, or any other member of the board?? I can take that out of my post if you like, but that would not make us fair, and from you're comments I feel you probably even agree with me on this one.

I obviously very strongly disagree with some of Tkitna's opinions. However, you can respect a person even if you don't respect his opinions. For as far as I can remember, Tkitna has never resorted to nasty personal attacks or petty name calling on this board, so I think he deserves a civilized discussion.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 03, 2008, 12:11:41 PM
Plus, I don't really feel like getting into the type of 'discussions' we used to have here when Wayne L was still around.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: legthi on July 03, 2008, 12:25:52 PM
I'd actually be less insulted if Tkitna did call me petty names, because then it wouldn't mean anything as he doesn't know me personally, - I may as well be anybody.
What he stated was actually far worse than this in my opinion, and I see it as a completely unnessecary attack, as he demonstrated in his post what he did when he encountered a homosexual. I'm sorry but that's really offensive. I believe there would be uproar if I said I do the same thing to black people in my home - this is really no different.             what he said was far worse than my comments.
Oh and just for the record, i'm not gay myself...just tolerant and sane ;)
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 03, 2008, 12:37:48 PM
Quote from: 666
what he said was far worse than my comments.

No, what you said wasn't worse. But why make it personal? I'd rather keep this discussion substancial. Whenever you disagree with someone, isn't it more interesting to know what his reasons are than to just let him know that he's not making sense?
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: DaveRam on July 03, 2008, 12:38:00 PM
This Liberal Christian is ok with what tkitna said , it's a view held by many , i just don't agree with it .
He's been honest .
He asked the gay person to leave his house , he did'nt kill them , which indicates to me he's not totally rabid .


(jumping)
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: legthi on July 03, 2008, 12:51:09 PM
Yeah we all have freedom of speech and can speak our opinions, but tkitna can't dish out that rubbish all over the board and not expect someone to pick up on it, or try and get back at them for it. Ok I regret saying what I did about him (although I still believe it), even though it was no more personal than what he said. It wasn't! I'm trying not to make this personal, but thats hard to do when he demonstrates hate and discrimination in his post(s) that so clearly offends many people. I'm done with all the personal stuff, but my original points remain.

And daveram, I'm not a liberal christian myself so none of the religious stuff tkitna said applies to me, or even means anything. If someone wants to quote scriptures written by PEOPLE as 'proof' why something is wrong, fair enough, go ahead, but don't expect any of us to take it seriously.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 03, 2008, 01:05:35 PM
Quote from: 666
And daveram, I'm not a liberal christian myself

Of course you aren't, cause you're board member #666.  ;D
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: DaveRam on July 03, 2008, 01:57:27 PM
This not so goody goody liberal christian as rolled a fat one  (smoking3) , i don't think people will ever agree on this one .
All i know is i'm not changing my view i love my gay friends (thumbsup)
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 03, 2008, 02:12:43 PM
Quote from: 971
i love my gay friends (thumbsup)

And just how much do you love your gay friends, Dave?  ;D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        




Sorry for that.  :B

Hey, it wasn't worse than the 'thumbs up' comment, right?

Right?  :P
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Sondra on July 03, 2008, 03:22:28 PM
Quote from: 373
Lets end this with a little bit of humor.

([url]http://images.despair.com/products/demotivators/compromise.jpg[/url])     


I really wanted to see what you thought about what I was trying to say in my post. I know it was long winded and boring, but I thought if we're going to use a certain book as a standard of belief than we should look at more than just one passage. What do you make of the rest of it? I mean, do you see my point as valid or not? And if not, why? I'm only just wondering. I mean, we can end the discussion and I understand, but I was just curious as to your thoughts. Which I will respect no matter what I personally feel myself.  :)
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: An Apple Beatle on July 03, 2008, 03:23:28 PM
I think both Joost and Tkitna have handled their differences with dignity and at the same time presented views which can enlighten both sides. A lesson in itself to be had. :)
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Sondra on July 03, 2008, 03:54:20 PM
Quote from: 666

And daveram, I'm not a liberal christian myself so none of the religious stuff tkitna said applies to me, or even means anything. If someone wants to quote scriptures written by PEOPLE as 'proof' why something is wrong, fair enough, go ahead, but don't expect any of us to take it seriously.

This is where I think a lot of people fall short. Of course you don't have to believe in the bible or any religious work, but it behooves all of us to have an awareness of what people believe in and have some level of respect for it. To say people won't take it seriously is not the answer. How can a discussion ever be had or an agreement ever be made? I'm speaking globally here now.

"It is the duty of every cultured man or woman to read sympathetically the scriptures of the world. If we are to respect others' religions as we would have them respect our own, a friendly study of the world's religions is a sacred duty."-Gandhi

Anyway, I personally think this discussion has been very healthy and I'm glad to have been able to read everyone's comments.  :)
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: tkitna on July 03, 2008, 04:27:39 PM
Quote from: 666
Yeah we all have freedom of speech and can speak our opinions, but tkitna can't dish out that rubbish all over the board and not expect someone to pick up on it, or try and get back at them for it. Ok I regret saying what I did about him (although I still believe it), even though it was no more personal than what he said. It wasn't! I'm trying not to make this personal, but thats hard to do when he demonstrates hate and discrimination in his post(s) that so clearly offends many people. I'm done with all the personal stuff, but my original points remain.

Hey Legthi, I apologize if I offended you (which is apparent). Actually, at the time of my story that I had posted earlier about asking that person to leave, it was more due to fear than hate and discrimination. I didnt know how to react and I didnt want my kids around it. Yes, I feel strongly about my stance and just like this thread, society also pushes me to change my thoughts. Why is that? Am I so wrong as to not to accept that lifestyle?
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: tkitna on July 03, 2008, 04:43:30 PM
Quote from: 216

I really wanted to see what you thought about what I was trying to say in my post. I know it was long winded and boring, but I thought if we're going to use a certain book as a standard of belief than we should look at more than just one passage. What do you make of the rest of it? I mean, do you see my point as valid or not? And if not, why? I'm only just wondering. I mean, we can end the discussion and I understand, but I was just curious as to your thoughts. Which I will respect no matter what I personally feel myself.  :)

Sandra, you brought up very valid points. As for my religious beliefs, I for some reason, have always taken the Old Testament as the actual meanings of God. I was taught that God, although an image of peace and love, was also stern to people who did not obey his will. The New Testament to me was always the teachings of Jesus who in turn took Gods lessons and (in another words) lightened them up. Meaning that people werent good enough to really follow the strict order that God commanded. As if they would fail regardless so Jesus added some loopholes in the rules. Even being Gods son, Jesus was allowed to be punished also, but alas, for our sins. I'm almost guaranteed to be wrong, but i've always felt deep down that it was better to follow Gods rules than the messengers even if it was Jesus, but thats my own personal ideal.  

Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: DaveRam on July 03, 2008, 04:53:22 PM
Quote from: 56

And just how much do you love your gay friends, Dave?  ;D
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        




Sorry for that.  :B

I love them a lot Joost . I had three but Andy who was my best friend was batterd to death in January of 2000
A kinder more centle person you could'nt  wish to meet .
To this day i can't believe people can be so cruel .
He was a smashing bloke , he was a record collector  i met him at a record fair , he knew more about music than anyone i ever knew .
The sad thing is , these kind of discussion's always paint gay people as somekind of perverts . I just don't see that  , he liked  men , where as i like women .
It was his preference and i  won't judge anyone on that , all i know is i miss him as do his family and friends

He would have laughed at this discussion he thought we were the queer buggers and reading through this he was probably right
(smile)
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: harihead on July 03, 2008, 05:25:28 PM
DaveRam, I'm so sorry to hear about your friend. I think many het people would be shocked by the number of gay people that are in their lives at this very moment and they don't know it-- decent, delightful people. I think the harm in denying they exist is the same harm in invalidating anyone for who they are, such as calling me dumb because I'm a woman (or any other male or female gender-bashing, or any racial epithet). These people are here and deserve to have the same ability to live their lives freely as people of another orientation. I only hope that, as people who are unused to the idea get more exposure to it, they will cease to be shocked and start to realize that gay people are just folks, same as them.  
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: DaveRam on July 03, 2008, 05:54:42 PM
It was such a shock to lose a friend in that way harihead , i had some really great drunken times with him and boy could he drink .
(smile)
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 03, 2008, 05:58:27 PM
Quote from: 373
Am I so wrong as to not to accept that lifestyle?

I think it depends on the way you 'don't accept' it. If you throw someone out of your house just because he's homosexual, than yes, I think that's wrong. Cause then you're treating him like he's some kind of lesser human being who's not worthy of being in your presence. If you really can't accept it, than a better way of 'not accepting it' could have been for instance saying something like "Look, I don't understand or approve of whatever it is you do in your bedroom and to be honest it makes me feel uncomfortable, so I would appreciate it if you could try to avoid confronting me with it and then we're cool". Some homosexuals probably wouldn't accept that because they don't want to keep hiding who they are, some others would probably appreciate your honesty and see it as a reasonable compromise.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 03, 2008, 06:09:10 PM
Quote from: 971
Quote from: 56
I love them a lot Joost . I had three but Andy who was my best friend was batterd to death in January of 2000
A kinder more centle person you could'nt  wish to meet .
To this day i can't believe people can be so cruel .

Sorry about your friend... (and sorry for my really lame joke)

You often hear parents say that they hope their children don't turn out to be homosexual. And that's not always because they're homophobic or because they want grandchildren or anything. Often it's purely because they know that homosexuals run the risk of becoming the victim of hate crimes, intolerance and discrimination. So sometimes you can't even really blame parents for not wanting to accept that a child turns out to be homosexual. Isn't that messed up?
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: DaveRam on July 03, 2008, 07:15:52 PM
I got the joke Joost (wink1)
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Jane on July 03, 2008, 07:20:08 PM
I understand tkitna. Do you think it is alright for children to observe it all? Most people are not born homo, they are dragged into it. And if it happens at an early age, at 10-14, children succumb, because at this age habits are formed and preferences are shaped. They do not quite see what is happening. I know a guy who said, if you once had it, it is hard to give it up, you are sure to return to it again. It`s like drugs. Jodie Foster watched her mother being in love with a woman who helped her raise the kids, and later was seduced by that woman, and became lesbian herself, which she publicly admitted not long ago ( though we certainly knew it ) If you had a sweet little daughter, and some of you do have, would you like her to become a man? Just imagine. Tkitna has children and you, young people , i suppose, i am sure, don`t. So you can`t understand him. This is a very hard topic, when it concerns our children. What do mothers, fathers and grandparents think on the subject?
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Bobber on July 03, 2008, 07:27:32 PM
Quote from: 1393
If you had a sweet little daughter, and some of you do have, would you like her to become a man?

Huh?
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Jane on July 03, 2008, 07:30:47 PM
I wouldn`t. I have a niece.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Bobber on July 03, 2008, 07:32:39 PM
But do you mean that 'being lesbian' is 'becoming a man'?
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 03, 2008, 07:41:44 PM
Quote from: 1393
Most people are not born homo, they are dragged into it.

I don't believe that at all. What's your source?
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 03, 2008, 07:48:23 PM
Quote from: 1393
If you had a sweet little daughter, and some of you do have, would you like her to become a man?

Hmmm, let's see... "Dad, I think I'm a lesbian. What should I do? Find a girlfriend that I can be happy with for the rest of my life? Or find a boyfriend because that's what society wants me to do? And then just hope that, even though I'm not the least bit attracted to men, I can tolerate him enough to keep up the scam?"

I can assure you that I would absolutely forbid her to pick option two.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Bobber on July 03, 2008, 07:55:21 PM
Being a father of three, it would be absolutely fine with me if one, two or all should turn out to be gay or lesbian. As long as they're happy being the way they are, that is as much as I can wish for. As a matter of fact, two of my best friends are a lesbian couple and my boys ask them about it. They know: two people can fall in love. Mostly it's man and woman, but sometimes it's two men or two women. In our house there is nothing wrong with that. Still, I respect Todd's vision tho I'm not sharing it.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 03, 2008, 07:58:24 PM
Here's another dilemma for you all...

We're all Beatles fans here, I bet you all listened to John Lennon when he asked you to imagine there's no heaven, no countries, no possessions... So now try to imagine this, OK?

This is the situation: you wake up one morning and find out that somehow your sex has changed. So if you're a man, imagine yourself being a woman, if you're a woman it's obviously the other way around. But the thing is: your sexual preference is unchanged. Same as it ever was. What are you going to do? Choose a partner of what is now the opposite sex or do you accept that you're going to have to be homosexual?
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Mairi on July 03, 2008, 09:28:49 PM
I'm really sorry if anyone had their feelings hurt by this topic. That was not my intention when I started this thread. Although I must say, it's been an interesting discussion so far.

Tkitna, I was raised Christian, too, and I consider myself a Christian. I don'f believe that homosexuality is unnatural, though. In fact you can see it in nature. There are gay animals, too.
I heard a theory that the reason that quote about homosexuality being an abomination is in the bible is because in those times, warriors would rape their opponents after defeating them in battle. The bible has been translated and re-translated so many times, how do we know what's true and what's an error? What happened and what's a parable? Just remember that the bible was also used to support slavery and opression of women. And what about premaritial sex? According to the bible, that's a sin, too. Would you throw a straight person out of your house if you knew they had premaritial sex?

What would you say if I told you that I was gay, or bisexual? Would that make me a bad person? Would it make my contributions to the forum any less? Personally I'd rather have my children around a nice gay person than an awful person who was straight.

I can see where you are coming from, but I just don't agree. I used to think that God didn't want people of the same sex to be married but now I realize he doesn't care as long as they are treating each other right.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Jane on July 03, 2008, 09:35:09 PM
Quote from: 63
But do you mean that 'being lesbian' is 'becoming a man'?

Well to some extent, yes. Cause a girl loves a girl and views her as you, guys, view a woman, wanting her body and all her wonderful parts. especially if she is an active not a passive partner. But, maybe, the word was a bit wrong. Would you want your daughter to become lesbian? Please, do not divert the attention from the question.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Jane on July 03, 2008, 09:55:49 PM
Ok. WE should respect everybody`s choice. And what about other people who love animals? or, maybe dead bodies or some other... they claim their rights too. Where to draw the line? Who will tell us? Why should you say, that is unnatural, they are turned on like this. Who is to judge them? Your premise is that everything is natural. So...? If a person is gay, i think we must take him/her as they are, respect them, and all that goes with it. But maybe children should be spared this imposition on them from everywhere, from the mass media especially. There are some people born gays, but usually they are spotted immediatelly due to their hermophrodic appearance, the rest are teased into it, or fall into it when very young.
See you all on Sunday! I am leaving for a few days, and, by the way, gonna speak to my wise gay friend, who says it`s like drugs. I like him a lot!
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: DaveRam on July 03, 2008, 11:04:11 PM
Quote from: 56
Here's another dilemma for you all...

We're all Beatles fans here, I bet you all listened to John Lennon when he asked you to imagine there's no heaven, no countries, no possessions... So now try to imagine this, OK?

This is the situation: you wake up one morning and find out that somehow your sex has changed. So if you're a man, imagine yourself being a woman, if you're a woman it's obviously the other way around. But the thing is: your sexual preference is unchanged. Same as it ever was. What are you going to do? Choose a partner of what is now the opposite sex or do you accept that you're going to have to be homosexual?

One great benefit with this dilemma Joost is if i woke up , and i was a women i would always be right in any argument with a man

(rolling3)
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: tkitna on July 04, 2008, 03:07:24 AM
Well, lets also take a look at the word 'unnatural'. What does it mean? In my own defintion, I would say that it is something that the majority of the population do not include theirselves with. Lets be honest with ourselves for a moment. The highest percentage of relationships in the world are male and female. That is the natural order. What does that make homosexuality?

Also, not to get off topic, but this is going towards earlier posts (I think it was Joost who asked me if it was a bad thing to not be religious,,,if i'm wrong sorry), but if there was no religion, what would be the inspiration for people to actually be good? Why wouldnt people just go murder or steal from people without a conscious? I remember growing up and my family would actually leave for a day or two without locking the doors to our house. That would never happen now. The world has changed and I blame it on lack of religion. The bad part is society is pushing to accept that. I cant do that.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Sondra on July 04, 2008, 04:26:39 AM
Quote from: 373

Sandra, you brought up very valid points. As for my religious beliefs, I for some reason, have always taken the Old Testament as the actual meanings of God. I was taught that God, although an image of peace and love, was also stern to people who did not obey his will. The New Testament to me was always the teachings of Jesus who in turn took Gods lessons and (in another words) lightened them up. Meaning that people werent good enough to really follow the strict order that God commanded. As if they would fail regardless so Jesus added some loopholes in the rules. Even being Gods son, Jesus was allowed to be punished also, but alas, for our sins. I'm almost guaranteed to be wrong, but i've always felt deep down that it was better to follow Gods rules than the messengers even if it was Jesus, but thats my own personal ideal.  

Thanks for the response Todd. I appreciate it. I guess I was taught the opposite. That the New Testament is the book Christians are to follow. But I haven't been to church or religious classes for quite some time now! I don't even know what I believe in anymore. Sort of agnostic at this point. But that Catholic upbringing is HARD to shake. I'm telling you. They do a number on kids for sure.  ??)
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 04, 2008, 06:23:58 AM
Quote from: 1393
And what about other people who love animals? or, maybe dead bodies or some other... they claim their rights too. Where to draw the line?

Where to draw the line? That's easy: there has to be a mutual agreement to have sex. So homosexuality = OK... necrophilia, bestiality, pedophilia = not OK.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 04, 2008, 07:02:13 AM
Quote from: 373
In my own defintion, I would say that it is something that the majority of the population do not include theirselves with. Lets be honest with ourselves for a moment. The highest percentage of relationships in the world are male and female. That is the natural order. What does that make homosexuality?


That makes homosexuals a minority. And minorities too have the right to excist. You too are in many ways part of a minority. 3/4 Of the world is not Christian. 2/3 Is not white. 60% Is under 30 years old.

And here's a surprise: since it's estimated that there are more homosexual men (4.9%) than women (4.1%) in the USA, Americans who are attracted to women are also a minority.  ;)

Quote from: 373
but if there was no religion, what would be the inspiration for people to actually be good? Why wouldnt people just go murder or steal from people without a conscious? I remember growing up and my family would actually leave for a day or two without locking the doors to our house. That would never happen now. The world has changed and I blame it on lack of religion. The bad part is society is pushing to accept that. I cant do that.


Some of the kindest, most honest and trustworthy people I know are outspoken atheists. And you seem to believe that religious people are generally better people than non-religious people... Well... Check out these links then...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_terrorism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_and_fascism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_persecution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Religiously_motivated_violence_in_the_United_States
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Bobber on July 04, 2008, 07:34:32 AM
Quote from: 1393

Well to some extent, yes. Cause a girl loves a girl and views her as you, guys, view a woman, wanting her body and all her wonderful parts. especially if she is an active not a passive partner. But, maybe, the word was a bit wrong. Would you want your daughter to become lesbian? Please, do not divert the attention from the question.

To answer your question: it would be fine with me if she turned out to be lesbian, as long as she's a happy person.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Sondra on July 04, 2008, 08:19:49 AM
Quote from: 56

That makes homosexuals a minority. And minorities too have the right to excist. You too are in many ways part of a minority. 3/4 Of the world is not Christian. 2/3 Is not white. 60% Is under 30 years old.

And here's a surprise: since it's estimated that there are more homosexual men (4.9%) than women (4.1%) in the USA, Americans who are attracted to women are also a minority.  ;)



Some of the kindest, most honest and trustworthy people I know are outspoken atheists. And you seem to believe that religious people are generally better people than non-religious people... Well... Check out these links then...
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_terrorism[/url]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_and_fascism[/url]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war[/url]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_persecution[/url]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Religiously_motivated_violence_in_the_United_States[/url]


Yet,some of our greatest leaders were people who were greatly driven by their religious convictions. Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr., and Abraham Lincoln spring to mind. You see the dilemma here?

You can't say it's one way or the other. People who blame religion for the word's problems are just as wrong as people who blame lack of religion. Both seem to carry smug attitudes and lists of one sided wrong doings. No wonder the world is in such a state. People refuse to look farther than their own nose.

When people don't agree with something all they see is what's wrong with it. They waste so much time looking for the negative that they miss the big picture. In the meantime, nothing gets accomplished. That's why I can't stand watching biased political programs, comedians, or read biased news articles and websites. You're not getting the truth either way. But people LOVE this stuff because it validates their own feelings. Then they gather up all of these clever quips and shocking statistics to throw out at anyone who thinks otherwise but the other side has their own comments and statistics to counter and it means nothing! It's unproductive. It gets us nowhere. The media loves it though. It's keeping them rich and happy. It's an amazing thing. They've mastered the art of manipulation to the point of where it's scary how much power they have over what people think.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: yavanna on July 04, 2008, 08:22:42 AM
Quote from: 373
Also, not to get off topic, but this is going towards earlier posts (I think it was Joost who asked me if it was a bad thing to not be religious,,,if i'm wrong sorry), but if there was no religion, what would be the inspiration for people to actually be good? Why wouldnt people just go murder or steal from people without a conscious? I remember growing up and my family would actually leave for a day or two without locking the doors to our house. That would never happen now. The world has changed and I blame it on lack of religion. The bad part is society is pushing to accept that. I cant do that.

Indeed that's easy: There is a strong reason for being 'good' even if you're not religious. If any society would accept murder or theft it would be dangerous for every single one. So it's kind of evolutionary interest to have some basic rules like that. You can base ethic behaviour almost 'logical'. You simply can't do to others want you don't want them to do to you.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 04, 2008, 08:28:49 AM
Quote from: 216
Yet,some of our greatest leaders were people who were greatly driven by their religious convictions. Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr., and Abraham Lincoln spring to mind.

Oh, but I wasn't trying to say that non-religious people are better than religious people... Indeed, some of the greatest people that ever lived were religious... The people you mentioned, Mother Teresa, Desmond Tutu, Major Bosshardt... My point is that there are rotten apples in both camps... I think that if you would compare crime rates for atheists with crime rates for people who consider themselves to be Christians... I bet there won't be that much of a difference.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Sondra on July 04, 2008, 08:30:53 AM
For sure. It comes more down to human nature than anything else. I would think.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: DaveRam on July 04, 2008, 08:48:12 AM
 
The controversial "Kinsey Reports" from the late 1940's early 1950's shocked the world when it reported that 46% of the American male population had "Reacted to both sexes sexually in the course of their adult lives "
Doe's this mean almost half the male population is "Bisexual" ?
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 04, 2008, 09:01:26 AM
Quote from: 971

The controversial "Kinsey Reports" from the late 1940's early 1950's shocked the world when it reported that 46% of the American male population had "Reacted to both sexes sexually in the course of their adult lives "
Doe's this mean almost half the male population is "Bisexual" ?

Of course 'reacting' (whatever than may mean) to both sexes doesn't mean that you're actually interested in having sexual intercourse with both sexes.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: DaveRam on July 04, 2008, 09:25:48 AM
True Joost the reports did'nt say 46% of males questioned had sexual intercourse with another man , it illustrated different sexual contact from mild to full intercourse .
I remember looking at this report when i was doing my social work training , we were having a similar debate when the lecturer through "The Kinsey Report " into the mix , i thought i would do the same .
The findings and the reports have been very controversial since they were published .
It still poses the question what is the " Norm " in terms of human sexuality ?
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 04, 2008, 09:49:24 AM
Quote from: 971
It still poses the question what is natural in terms of human sexuality ?

Every material thing is made from natural resources and everything we do is in our human nature... So the word 'natural' really doesn't make much sense because actually everything is natural... Some things more indirectly than others, but still...
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: DaveRam on July 04, 2008, 10:15:09 AM
Quote from: 56

Every material thing is made from natural resources and everything we do is in our human nature... So the word 'natural' really doesn't make much sense because actually everything is natural... Some things more indirectly than others, but still...

Maybe natural is not the right word Joost it implies nature , "Norm" is better .
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 04, 2008, 10:41:35 AM
Quote from: 971
Maybe natural is not the right word Joost it implies nature , "Norm" is better .

People who always want to fit the norm are usually incredibly dull and uninteresting... So in that case, hooray for unnatural people!  :)
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: DaveRam on July 04, 2008, 02:28:14 PM
My guesstimate is that  10% of the population is gay and a further 13%  have had more than one bisexual experience and a further 2% have done it once .
I think the headline figure of 46% in "The Kinsey Report" is way to high .
I  think around 25% of the population , are leading pretty interesting lives , behind closed doors.
And what is thought to be a small minority behaving outside the norm is infact a sizeable chunk of the adult population .
And  more to the point if it is going on , it's nobodies business what consenting adults get up to . (beer)
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: tkitna on July 04, 2008, 02:37:12 PM
Quote from: 216
Thanks for the response Todd. I appreciate it. I guess I was taught the opposite. That the New Testament is the book Christians are to follow. But I haven't been to church or religious classes for quite some time now! I don't even know what I believe in anymore. Sort of agnostic at this point. But that Catholic upbringing is HARD to shake. I'm telling you. They do a number on kids for sure.  ??)

I'm in the same boat as you Sandra. I havent dwelved deep into religious classes or studies for a long time either. The reason being is that my wife and I's preacher, that we really liked, left our church for another one. I was brought up Christian, but the church we belong to now is Baptist. Anyways, we would attend an adult bible study class on Wednesday nights and would really get into it. There was definately some heated debates. I just couldnt accept that a person could murder another person and be automatically forgiven when they asked for forgiveness by Jesus. I'm wrong, but it just doesnt sit with me and the preacher and I would debate that for awhile. I miss those evening classes, but I cant get into the new preacher. We'll probably look for another church soon.

Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Geoff on July 04, 2008, 02:38:26 PM
Quote from: 971
And  more to the point if it is going on , it's nobodies business what consenting adults get up to . (beer)

Agree completely.

... and I'm always open to suggestions myself.  (teeth1)


(angel2)
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: tkitna on July 04, 2008, 02:42:15 PM
Quote from: 56

People who always want to fit the norm are usually incredibly dull and uninteresting... So in that case, hooray for unnatural people!  :)

Yes, but the people that usually live outside the box are usually described as 'strange' and 'weird'.

Listen to us Joost, i'd almost swear that your a liberal while i'm a conservative.

(Just joshing man. Please no politics. I'd have to bail.)

Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 04, 2008, 02:57:33 PM
Quote from: 373
Yes, but the people that usually live outside the box are usually described as 'strange' and 'weird'.

I think there's nothing wrong with being a little 'strange' or 'weird', to a certain extend. Wouldn't life be boring if everybody was perfectly normal?
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Sondra on July 05, 2008, 08:47:02 AM
Quote from: 373

Yes, but the people that usually live outside the box are usually described as 'strange' and 'weird'.




Not where I live. Those living inside the box are the weird ones!  ;)

Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Kevin on July 05, 2008, 09:22:20 AM
I'm in two minds about this. I accept that laws don't exist just to punish but to set a moral code (drugs and prostitution.)
Re gay marriage - part of me thinks "let them do what they want." But I can also see a big difference in tolerating gayness (as we do now) and putting it on an equal basis with "normal" marriage. I know in my heart of hearts that our society is built around the family, and we should do all we can to encourage that.
At the  end of the day I don't think our western you-can-do-anything attitude has made us one jot happier or freeer (sp).
So I would agree to civil partnerships, but not marriage
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: DaveRam on July 05, 2008, 10:59:37 AM
I think the traditional family is a fantastic model for bringing up children , im very pro family  .
We should do everything we can to support mums and dads bringing up children , every study i've read shows it's the best model by far .
Thats not to say single parents don't do a good job most  do , ive also had experience of lesbian foster parents who have worked wonders with very difficult young people .
I think civil partnerships are a good thing and should be extended to include hetrosexual couples who choose not to marry .
Civil Partnerships came about in the Uk basically to give longterm gay cohabiting couples some legal safeguards around property as many of them were been penalized by " Inheritance Tax "
I see civil partnerships as a sensible alternative to marriage for couples with a different lifestyle . It is not and was never intended to be on a par with a christian marriage .
This distinction is why when the legislation was put before the UK Parliament it was passed with very little oppersition it also had significant support from the public in the UK .
I think it's a good law which gives gay and lesbian couples some important legal protection .
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 05, 2008, 11:19:57 AM
Quote from: 185
But I can also see a big difference in tolerating gayness (as we do now) and putting it on an equal basis with "normal" marriage.
Why? What does allowing homosexuals to marry change about the value of a heterosexual marriage? "Honey, being married to you just doesn't feel the same ever since these gays got the right to get married..."

Quote from: 185
I know in my heart of hearts that our society is built around the family, and we should do all we can to encourage that.
And how are we encouraging that by not legalizing gay marriage?

And another thing... If you feel that marriage is meant as the base you built a family on, then shouldn't you also forbid people who don't want or can't have children to get married?
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 05, 2008, 11:43:51 AM
Here in the Netherlands gay marriage has been legal since 2001. And I honestly don't see how this development affected 'normal' family life in any way.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Kevin on July 05, 2008, 11:50:48 AM
Quote from: 56
Here in the Netherlands gay marriage has been legal since 2001. And I honestly don't see how this development affected 'normal' family life in any way.

ah - but it's like waves lapping against a mighty cliff - apparently harmless but crumbling bit by bit until one day it just falls into the ocean.
Actually I haven't really given a lot of thought to the issue. You raise some good points.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Geoff on July 05, 2008, 12:02:37 PM
Quote from: 185
ah - but it's like waves lapping against a mighty cliff - apparently harmless but crumbling bit by bit until one day it just falls into the ocean.

I think there's an argument to be made (a considerable argument, in fact) that you mess with longstanding societal institutions at your own risk (unintended consequences and all that), but of course societies and institutions evolve over time anyway, and since I don't see how allowing gay marriages diminishes or erodes heterosexual marriage as an institution, on balance I come down in favor of it.  :)

Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Kevin on July 05, 2008, 12:15:03 PM
Quote from: 1161

I think there's an argument to be made (a considerable argument, in fact) that you mess with longstanding societal institutions at your own risk (unintended consequences and all that),

Yes - just look at what's happened since women got the vote: world wars, depressions, drug epidemics and wonton debaucherey. You just can't see some things coming.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Geoff on July 05, 2008, 12:26:00 PM
Quote from: 185

Yes - just look at what's happened since women got the vote: world wars, depressions, drug epidemics and wonton debaucherey. You just can't see some things coming.

(rolling3)

Not sure I see the objection to wanton debauchery, though. Good luck with the mob.  ;D
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 05, 2008, 12:43:53 PM
To get back to the family values thing... In the Netherlands we've gone as far as giving married same-sex couples the same adoption rights as heterosexual couples. So homosexuals can adopt children just as easily as heterosexuals. And of course lesbians can always have children without adopting. So there are families being built on same-sex marriages...
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Mairi on July 05, 2008, 09:06:36 PM
Personally speaking, I think it would be much healthier for a child to grow up in a homosexual two-parent family than a single-parent heterosexual family.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Sondra on July 05, 2008, 09:43:28 PM
You know, there are SO many kids out there in need of a home. This should just be looked upon as another way to match these children up with loving parents. Heterosexual couples rarely adopt. They want their own. I think it's a positive in this way. And I think more people should consider adoption over all these bizarre medical "breakthroughs."
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Mairi on July 05, 2008, 11:46:32 PM
Yeah, that's so true. In-vitro fertilization and all that is WAY more expensive than adopting anyway.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Sondra on July 06, 2008, 12:28:42 AM
How can you justify spending enormous amounts of money, time, and not always successful efforts just to have a child that is biological when there are tons and tons of unwanted babies that you could love and raise as your own? Is it all ego? We must reproduce a little version of ourselves? I mean, maybe it's a sign that you are meant to find your child in another way. That instead of adding to the already over populated world you are supposed to give a loving home to a child who will otherwise never have one. That's how I'd look at it anyway. Like finding a soul mate, you can find this child that in a very special way somehow really belongs to you even if it didn't come from your own body. I don't know.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: An Apple Beatle on July 06, 2008, 01:11:54 AM
Quote from: 216
How can you justify spending enormous amounts of money, time, and not always successful efforts just to have a child that is biological when there are tons and tons of unwanted babies that you could love and raise as your own? Is it all ego? We must reproduce a little version of ourselves? I mean, maybe it's a sign that you are meant to find your child in another way. That instead of adding to the already over populated world you are supposed to give a loving home to a child who will otherwise never have one. That's how I'd look at it anyway. Like finding a soul mate, you can find this child that in a very special way somehow really belongs to you even if it didn't come from your own body. I don't know.

I'm wid dat.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Sondra on July 06, 2008, 01:33:42 AM
Quote from: 15

I'm wid dat.

For some reason, I'd love to hear what that sentence sounds like coming from an English guy! Just like I'd love to hear what it sounds like for an American guy to say, oh dear!  ;D
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: An Apple Beatle on July 06, 2008, 01:39:57 AM
I have been playing some funk tonight and it went well....Sorry, couldn't contain myself. Speaking my thoughts. xxx

It was agreement not mocking. :)
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Sondra on July 06, 2008, 05:29:33 AM
Heh. However, just to clarify, what I meant was, it would probably sound adorable in either case seeing as how it's not the "norm."  ;)
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 06, 2008, 08:01:00 AM
Quote from: 216
How can you justify spending enormous amounts of money, time, and not always successful efforts just to have a child that is biological when there are tons and tons of unwanted babies that you could love and raise as your own?

I don't know what exactly the deal is with adoption in the USA, but here it takes a huge amount of money, time and effort to adopt a baby. There are just around 50 Dutch children per year put up for adoption (which is of course a very positive thing), so most people who want to adopt a child have to go to Asia, Africa or South-America and usually run into a giant wall of bureaucracy and corruction.

I know a married couple that tried to adopt a child from Brazil a few years ago. Both of them, the man and the woman, were infertile so it was their only option. First they had to deal with Dutch adoption laws. That couple owns a bar and restaurant, and it turns out that for some reason you're not allowed to adopt children if you own a bar. I know it's insane, but that's how it is. So they moved to Belgium (we live just a few miles from the border) because laws aren't as strict there. In the next two years they went to Brazil three times to get all the paperwork done. Then they were finally told that they could come get their child (they already knew his name and had gotten some photos). When they arrived in Brazil, they found out that the child had been illegally sold to a rich Brazilian couple a few days earlier and that they had to start all over again from scratch.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: DaveRam on July 06, 2008, 10:31:41 AM
When i worked as a child protection social worker in the late 80's and adoption and fostering was part of my job i can tell you it was always difficult to find suitable people to either adopt or foster a child .
Firstly the bureaucracy and vetting procedures often put people off , it could take up to 12 month to finalize an adoption especially with older children .
I never completed an adoption procedure in my two years in the job , but i did have as part of my case load an adoption breakdown , which was very difficult .
The adoption failed when the adoptive parents family dog died and the adopted child did'nt show any grief at the dogs death .
This was their bizarre reason for nolonger wanting the child , who they had for five years .
So the child had to come back into care .
Fotunately the child had an older brother who was now of an age too take on the care , we were able with lots of support to place the child with the brother and have a successful outcome too this situation.
Most adoptions although long winded do work - out fine for the child .
But it is not easy finding people who want to adopt an older child , most people want a baby  , there are thousands of young children under ten in foster care at the moment and nobody seems to want to give these children a loving stable home .
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Sondra on July 06, 2008, 11:07:27 AM
Exactly true. People want babies. Babies without any baggage.

On any given day in the United States, more than 100,000 foster children are waiting to be adopted by someone who can provide a permanent, loving home. While they wait, these children often live with foster parents, with relatives, or in group homes or institutions. Extensive recruitment efforts have been undertaken at the state and federal levels to identify homes for these children. Yet many children still wait a very long time for a new family.-Urban Institute

In this country there's an enormous amount of kids in foster care of all races and all ages that desperately need a family. Some spend their entire lives going through the system waiting to be adopted. But because they're no longer little cute babies, they have little chance. If I ever adopt, and I have always thought about it, I would adopt an older kid for sure. I wish I could have adopted some of the students I taught when I was teaching in the inner city. Some of the families were just so disgusting. A lot of them just take in foster kids just for the money and then they treat them like animals. I can't even believe what is allowed to go on out there.

Sorry to go off topic.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Jane on July 06, 2008, 08:05:08 PM
Please, read the Old Testament. And don`t forget about Sodom and Gomorrah.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: pc31 on July 06, 2008, 08:08:18 PM
i'm against it!!!
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Jane on July 06, 2008, 08:20:03 PM
Reading or Sex?
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 07, 2008, 06:34:58 AM
Quote from: 1393
Please, read the Old Testament.

I will... As soon as someone can prove to me that it really is God's word...
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Bobber on July 07, 2008, 07:36:44 AM
Quote from: 1393
And don`t forget about Sodom and Gomorrah.

What's that all about then?
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 07, 2008, 08:42:53 AM
Quote from: 63

What's that all about then?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it's a biblical story about two cities (Sodom and Gomorrah) that were destroyed by God, one of the theories is that He did that because some of the inhabitants were homosexual.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: pc31 on July 07, 2008, 09:49:42 AM
Quote from: 1393
Reading or Sex?
reading.......

Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: DaveRam on July 07, 2008, 10:34:15 AM
Quote from: 1393
Please, read the Old Testament. And don`t forget about Sodom and Gomorrah.


I like the bit where Lots wife turns into a piller of salt , it's very Clash Of The Titans .
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: DaveRam on July 07, 2008, 10:36:39 AM
There doing a remake of Clash Of The Titans , so i hear .
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Geoff on July 07, 2008, 12:33:40 PM
"Sodom and Gomorrah" is also the title of an old Village People song:

http://www.lyricstime.com/village-people-sodom-and-gomorrah-lyrics.html

(teeth1)
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Bobber on July 07, 2008, 02:06:31 PM
Quote from: 56

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it's a biblical story about two cities (Sodom and Gomorrah) that were destroyed by God, one of the theories is that He did that because some of the inhabitants were homosexual.

I know, I wanted to hear Jane's interpretation. Ridiculous story by the way.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: alexis on July 07, 2008, 02:40:26 PM
It can be taken as an early exhortation to cut down on one's salt intake as well, all depends on one's perspective.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 07, 2008, 02:54:38 PM
Quote from: 63

I know, I wanted to hear Jane's interpretation. Ridiculous story by the way.

I think everyone's allowed to believe whatever he wants, but yeah... I think we must realize that the Old Testament was written in a time when we didn't have any knowledge yet about what causes earthquakes, hurricans, thunder, lightning, floods, volcano eruptions, solar eclipses... I think that a lot of things that were seen as miracles 2000-3000 years ago could easily be explained nowadays... Again, not telling anyone what or what not to believe, I just think everyone should keep an open and critical mind... Consider all the options... And don't just blindly accept anything just because it's been passed on for generations.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Sondra on July 07, 2008, 05:40:30 PM
Quote from: 56

I will... As soon as someone can prove to me that it really is God's word...

Dude, that's why the call it faith. And more power to those who have it. But it seems we're still missing the point about the Old Testament in relation to The New Testament. But oh well. One does try.  :-/
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Geoff on July 07, 2008, 05:58:58 PM
Quote from: 56
Again, not telling anyone what or what not to believe, I just think everyone should keep an open and critical mind... Consider all the options... And don't just blindly accept anything just because it's been passed on for generations.

I'll second that: but I think the effect of most systems of religious beliefs- and religious texts- has been to shut down precisely that approach.

Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 07, 2008, 06:21:58 PM
Quote from: 216
Dude, that's why the call it faith. And more power to those who have it.

Oh, definately. Even though I'm critical of organized religion, the very last thing I want to do is to try to make someone lose his faith.

But here's my problem:

Definition of faith:
Faith is a belief in the trustworthiness of an idea that has not been proven.

Isn't it a bit risky to base your entire way of life and moral codes on what is basically some sort of gut feeling?
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Jane on July 07, 2008, 06:23:40 PM
Quote from: 63

I know, I wanted to hear Jane's interpretation. Ridiculous story by the way.

The interpretation is correct. These are 2 ancient cities in the Middle East, which were destroyed by God as a punishment for the immoral sexual behavior of their people, shocking and homosexual. The story implies that, If people practise sodomy the world will go to the dogs, no kids will be born, no each sexes` nature will be emphasized. all will become just one sex, kindda neuter. Hard to say if it`s a woman or a man- unisex. Unisex is the banner of our times, the world is becoming colourless, dull, monotonous. Who likes it?
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 07, 2008, 06:28:04 PM
Quote from: 1393
the world is becoming colourless, dull, monotonous. Who likes it?

You mean right now? I don't think the world's ever been as diverse as it is now...
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Jane on July 07, 2008, 06:30:59 PM
Quote from: 56

I will... As soon as someone can prove to me that it really is God's word...

 I read a book about a scientist who proved that there was a code in the words and lines of the Bible which repeated itself at regular intervals, not a single human could have followed this code, it was and is beyond a human capacity. I don`t remember the name of the scientist, but i will look it up and tell you.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Jane on July 07, 2008, 06:35:51 PM
Quote from: 56

You mean right now? I don't think the world's ever been as diverse as it is now...

I mean in terms of male-female! The distinction is being erased. Go to the USA, they all look alike, I haven`t seen a single pretty girl in Washington. What about The Netherlands, do you have real nice girls? Is there any distinction?
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Jane on July 07, 2008, 06:40:34 PM
Quote from: 56

Oh, definately. Even though I'm critical of organized religion, the very last thing I want to do is to try to make someone lose his faith.

But here's my problem:

Definition of faith:
Faith is a belief in the trustworthiness of an idea that has not been proven.

Isn't it a bit risky to base your entire way of life and moral codes on what is basically some sort of gut feeling?

 Vow! You are wrong! something that can be proved sooner or later is not faith, It`s a thesis, supposition. Faith is smth that can`t be proved, only after your death, maybe.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 07, 2008, 07:00:10 PM
Quote from: 1393
I read a book about a scientist who proved that there was a code in the words and lines of the Bible which repeated itself at regular intervals, not a single human could have followed this code, it was and is beyond a human capacity.


Quote
The Great Pyramid (the Pyramid of Khufu, or Cheops in Greek) at Gizeh, Egypt, demonstrates the remarkable character of its placement on the face of the Earth.

The Pyramid lies in the center of gravity of the continents. It also lies in the exact center of all the land area of the world, dividing the earth's land mass into approximately equal quarters.  

The north-south axis (31 degrees east of Greenwich) is the longest land meridian, and the east-west axis (30 degrees north) is the longest land parallel on the globe. There is obviously only one place that these longest land-lines of the terrestrial earth can cross, and it is at the Great Pyramid! This is incredible, one of the scores of features of this mighty structure which begs for a better explanation.

Quote
The precision with which the Pyramid of Khufu (the Great Pyramid) was executed is often the source of marvel and speculation. The orientation of the Great Pyramid in relationship to true north is such as to cause it to be declared the "most accurately oriented edifice on earth." That is to say, its four sides are directed to the four cardinal points of the compass with less than 3 minutes of one degree off true north [the Second Pyramid of Giza exhibits a consistent accuracy of alignment which is also extremely impressive: just 6 arc minutes from true north].
By comparison, the Paris Observatory is 6 minutes of one degree off true north.

If you consider that the Pyramids were built almost 5.000 years ago, I would say that this is beyond human capacity. But does it prove anything about ancient Egyptian religion?
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 07, 2008, 07:00:54 PM
Quote from: 1393
The distinction is being erased.

I think that's a good thing. I think that males and females as human beings are originally much more alike than we realize. Most of the differences between males and females are purely cultural and traditional. That whole traditional role pattern of the man going off to work to bring home the bacon and the woman staying at home and doing whatever she can to keep her husband satisfied doesn't mean much to me. I like independent women with a mind of their own.

Quote from: 1393
What about The Netherlands, do you have real nice girls?

Plenty!  :)



Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 07, 2008, 07:05:20 PM
Quote from: 1393

 Vow! You are wrong! something that can be proved sooner or later is not faith, It`s a thesis, supposition. Faith is smth that can`t be proved, only after your death, maybe.

If you think that my definition of 'faith' is wrong, than blame Wikipedia, not me.  :)
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Jane on July 07, 2008, 08:05:30 PM
Joost, you are really very clever! I like it and enjoy it very much! Great! But if you put the blame on Wikipedia, then why do you subscribe to it, to this definition? Do not quote it then. Besides, we meant another kind of faith, not scientific but religious. You should see the difference.

I am really happy about the girls in The Netherlands, or else it seems there are only sexless creatures walking around everywhere.

About the distinction. I meant not the social one and changing roles in family life, babysitting and stuff like that. What i meant was appearance distinction. The world is beautiful cause there are men and women in it. You know, all the time i resist the temptation of going on to speak about the issue of political correctness, which has a lot to do with contributing to unisex world. This is what it is - unisex.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 07, 2008, 08:20:27 PM
Quote from: 1393
But if you put the blame on Wikipedia, then why do you subscribe to it, to this definition? Do not quote it then. Besides, we meant another kind of faith, not scientific but religious. You should see the difference.

It's not that I don't agree with the definition, I thought you didn't agree with it.

I learned pretty much all the English I know in school, by watching TV and from looking things up in dictionaries, so sometimes I find holes in my vocabulary. For online conversations in English I often use Google (to check the spelling), translation sites (if I can't find the word I'm looking for) or Wikipedia (for definitions) to find the right words to express myself as good as possible.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: DaveRam on July 07, 2008, 08:57:59 PM
Quote from: 1393

The interpretation is correct. These are 2 ancient cities in the Middle East, which were destroyed by God as a punishment for the immoral sexual behavior of their people, shocking and homosexual. The story implies that, If people practise sodomy the world will go to the dogs, no kids will be born, no each sexes` nature will be emphasized. all will become just one sex, kindda neuter. Hard to say if it`s a woman or a man- unisex. Unisex is the banner of our times, the world is becoming colourless, dull, monotonous. Who likes it?

My reading of the distruction of  "Sodom & Gomorrah" Jane is that it had nothing to do with homosexual sex , it was more to do with it been a wicked place for the stranger to visit .
Sodomites were men and women  , it's not a city of men ?
They were guilty of economic crimes " Whats mine is mine " , they were cruel to beggers and a violent people .
It was a place of gang rape and fornication , acts i read as hetrosexual .
It does not explicitly mention sex between men and men , it speaks of "The Strange Flesh " which is just as likely to mean bestiality or necrophillia ? as it is to mean homosexual acts ?
Thats the Christian interpretation , the original Jewish text on which it is based does not emphasize the sexual , it's more to do with the inhabitants lacking a sense of hospitality to the stranger .


Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 07, 2008, 09:21:12 PM
Quote from: 971
My reading of the distruction of  "Sodom & Gomorrah" Jane is that it had nothing to do with homosexual sex , it was more to do with it been a wicked place for the stranger to visit .

There are several different theories. The homosexuality theory is one of them.

But that's one of the problems I have with those so called Holy Books.

If God is perfect (which He obviously must be if He created everything), than it shouldn't be a problem for Him to give us humans a clear set of rules that we can work with. And it seems to me that the ideal way of doing that would not be to let some of your followers write a book and leave it at that for a few thousand years. Cause it's inevitible that the message will be distorted through the ages by translation errors, censorship, wrong interpretations, people with wrong intentions, and what not. Just look at where we're now, 2008 years AD... We have the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Qur'an, the Torah, the Bhagavad Gita... Nobody knows for sure which one is truely the word of God... If any... And for every Holy Book there are as many interpretations as there are believers...

So I think it's silly to believe that we will be punished in the afterlife just because we chose the wrong theory to follow...

Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: alexis on July 07, 2008, 10:08:01 PM
Quote from: 56

There are several different theories. The homosexuality theory is one of them.

But that's one of the problems I have with those so called Holy Books.

If God is perfect (which He obviously must be if He created everything), than it shouldn't be a problem for Him to give us humans a clear set of rules that we can work with. And it seems to me that the ideal way of doing that would not be to let some of your followers write a book and leave it at that for a few thousand years. Cause it's inevitible that the message will be distorted through the ages by translation errors, censorship, wrong interpretations, people with wrong intentions, and what not. Just look at where we're now, 2008 years AD... We have the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Qur'an, the Torah, the Bhagavad Gita... Nobody knows for sure which one is truely the word of God... If any... And for every Holy Book there are as many interpretations as there are believers...

So I think it's silly to believe that we will be punished in the afterlife just because we chose the wrong theory to follow...



The relationship of God with his believers is often described as one analagous to a father with his children. Staying with this analogy, it would be no surprise that you (or I, or anyone else) don't understand why certain things are done in certain ways. That doesn't mean things are wrong, just that we don't have the "big" picture.  Your statement more or less assumes a co-equal "let's all sit down and understand each other" sort of relationship between God and his believers. That's not really a common one, for what it's worth!
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: alexis on July 07, 2008, 10:35:15 PM
Quote from: 56

There are several different theories. The homosexuality theory is one of them.

But that's one of the problems I have with those so called Holy Books.

If God is perfect (which He obviously must be if He created everything), than it shouldn't be a problem for Him to give us humans a clear set of rules that we can work with. And it seems to me that the ideal way of doing that would not be to let some of your followers write a book and leave it at that for a few thousand years. Cause it's inevitible that the message will be distorted through the ages by translation errors, censorship, wrong interpretations, people with wrong intentions, and what not. Just look at where we're now, 2008 years AD... We have the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Qur'an, the Torah, the Bhagavad Gita... Nobody knows for sure which one is truely the word of God... If any... And for every Holy Book there are as many interpretations as there are believers...

So I think it's silly to believe that we will be punished in the afterlife just because we chose the wrong theory to follow...


Well, as said above, that is why it is called "faith", not "knowledge", or "theory".  :)

Even within any one of the major religions there are widely varying interpretations of the will of God, and so it's no surprise they also exist between them. If one believes in the afterlife, though, it wouldn't seem that unreasonable for there to be consequences to choices made in this life. So in that case it might not be as silly as you describe... it seems easy enough to imagine that a self-sacrificing altruistic care giver (like Mother Theresa, perhaps, though I really don't know a lot about her) would have an easier time avoiding being "punished in the afterlife" than some greedy robber baron who knowingly causes pain and destruction for their own personal benefit.

I've noticed that it's not that unusual to hear people that have had bad experiences with the religous community, either directly or indirectly, then go on to broad brush believers in God as evil, intolerant, bad, etc. IMO, there are good apples and bad apples in every group of people, and this applies to religous people as well as non-believers. It's ironic (I think that's the right word) that these same people's self-proclaimed identity is often one of extreme tolerance of differences among humanity - but it's quite OK to relax the standards of avoiding prejudgement/prejudice when considering the religous community!

Just for the record, this isn't meant to describe you Joost, I've had absolutely no indication at all that you are anything but one who loves their fellow man (in the general sense ;-) ) This is just something that came to mind as I started typing. I hope I don't come across as a right wing nut case ... but then who does?  :)

Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: tkitna on July 08, 2008, 12:44:31 AM
Quote from: 56

If God is perfect (which He obviously must be if He created everything), than it shouldn't be a problem for Him to give us humans a clear set of rules that we can work with.



This is pretty clear to me, and we still cant seem to follow them.

(http://www.flagguys.com/img/10comand.jpg)

Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 08, 2008, 06:52:47 AM
Quote from: 373

This is pretty clear to me, and we still cant seem to follow them.

([url]http://www.flagguys.com/img/10comand.jpg[/url])



The Ten Commandments too have been passed through for thousands of years with the risk of being distorted by humans along the way. And there's absolute proof that this happened, as there are currently four versions of the Ten Commandments (Jewish, Angelican/Reformed, Orthodox, Roman Catholic/Lutheran).
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Bobber on July 08, 2008, 07:13:25 AM
Quote from: 1393

The interpretation is correct. These are 2 ancient cities in the Middle East, which were destroyed by God as a punishment for the immoral sexual behavior of their people, shocking and homosexual. The story implies that, If people practise sodomy the world will go to the dogs, no kids will be born, no each sexes` nature will be emphasized. all will become just one sex, kindda neuter. Hard to say if it`s a woman or a man- unisex. Unisex is the banner of our times, the world is becoming colourless, dull, monotonous. Who likes it?

So this is the God about 'forgiveness' and 'whoever is free of sins throws the first stone'. Too many people have been killed in the name of whatever God. In my opinion, not many good things have come out of religion. But if it's your thing and would like to give your life meaning with it, you have my blessing (for what it's worth). Problem is that followers of some religions are trying to convince non-followers that something terrible is going to happen if they don't believe in a certain God or holy book. I haven't turned my back on anyone who came to bring love to my life or my house, gay or straight. Your belief says I will probably burn in hell or turn into a pile of salt. My belief says I will die one day and we'll see after that. Your belief says I'm living in sin, because I'm living with a woman and am not married to her. I have a certain feeling of what is right and wrong, what is fair and not. I believe and trust that feeling and it is not related to one religion. Well, maybe my one and only true self religion living in my mind and soul. And I won't try to convince you to believe what I believe. I'm not asking you to read certain books or stories. Oh, one exception, don't believe Bob Spitz' Beatles biography.  :)
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 08, 2008, 07:24:57 AM
Quote from: 63
Problem is that followers of some religions are trying to convince non-followers that something terrible is going to happen if they don't believe in a certain God or holy book.

Yeah, that's always the best way of getting control over people. Step 1: scare the living daylights out of them. Step 2: make them believe that only you can save them. Most religions (and wars) started that way.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Sondra on July 08, 2008, 08:13:58 AM
This is so frustrating to me. I'm not even a religious person, but a lot of us here are getting our facts wrong or mixing them up altogether. My point being, if you're going to criticize something at least know what you're criticizing. Same goes for using religion as an excuse to justify why you don't accept certain behaviors such as homosexuality.

If you actually read these texts, you'll find there IS no justification for violence and hatred of any kind. You'll find it's about love and peace and accepting others. It's mankind who f*cks it up. And if they didn't have religion to use as an excuse to cause violence then they'd use something else and you all know it. It is the nature of man. Plain and simple.

Religion isn't the cause of wars, it's mans desire for POWER. It always has been and it always will be. For me, anyone who says nothing good ever came from religion is in the same camp as those who say you'll burn in hell if you don't believe. There's no way anything is that simple. That's way too much of a generalization and there's nothing to back either of those statements it if you choose to REALLY look at history, look at what's written in these religious works, and look at the behavior of mankind. Both statements can and have been easily contradicted. On this very own thread in fact. Which of course people ignore because it doesn't suit their current beliefs. So instead we talk in circles!

Religion has it's place in our history same as anything else. Do you all think abolishing it would solve all of our problems? Right. What causes war? Well, lets see, usually, it is about power and money. Unscrupulous leaders will try to make it about something more meaningful. Like say...religion. Look closely though. That's hardly ever what it's really about.

Okay, I'm sorry if I sound like a jerk or whatever. Not trying to come off that way. I'm not trying to insult or offend anybody. I'm just trying to look at this in the most logical way. That's how I make sense of things. I certainly won't mind being proved wrong on anything I post. It's how we learn anyway. BTW, I think this has been a great discussion overall. :)
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: DaveRam on July 08, 2008, 08:29:36 AM
Quote from: 373

This is pretty clear to me, and we still cant seem to follow them.

([url]http://www.flagguys.com/img/10comand.jpg[/url])




Absolutely nothing written on these tablets of stone from God , about Homosexuality and that's good enough for me

(clap)
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: tkitna on July 08, 2008, 08:39:08 AM
Quote from: 971


Absolutely nothing written on these tablets of stone from God , about Homosexuality and that's good enough for me

(clap)


That was the other tablet that Moses dropped.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L940yIeVZzE&feature=related

Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: DaveRam on July 08, 2008, 08:48:52 AM
Quote from: 373

That was the other tablet that Moses dropped.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L940yIeVZzE&feature=related[/url]






(rolling3)

Very funny Todd really liked that , but i think  my argument about God Been indifferent about homosexuality is pretty rock solid ?
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 08, 2008, 09:09:44 AM
I think it's great that we're discussing such heavy topics here and that we've already reached page 12 without any hostilities to speak of. Excellent!
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: tkitna on July 08, 2008, 09:59:03 AM
Quote from: 971
Very funny Todd really liked that , but i think  my argument about God Been indifferent about homosexuality is pretty rock solid ?

You very well might be right DaveRam. I'm probably sinning by having my own opinion on the topic, but I really dont believe i'll ever change my mind. Besides all the hoopla we've already discussed, I have to throw one other thing out there. Maybe demographics has something to do with my opinion. I live out in hicksville West Virginia. I'm not exposed to what a lot of other people are. I dont live near any happening spots or bigger cities unless I travel an hour to go to Pittsburgh and that cities a human urinal. They dont even offer cable TV where I live. Oh well, just babbling.

Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Bobber on July 08, 2008, 10:38:26 AM
Quote from: 216
Religion isn't the cause of wars, it's mans desire for POWER.

I said that millions of people have been killed in the name of whatever God. That's a difference.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: alexis on July 08, 2008, 12:47:18 PM
Sandra put my thoughts on paper much better than I could. You see, when somebody says something like
Quote from: 63

I said that millions of people have been killed in the name of whatever God. That's a difference.

I tend to think there is some deception going on - either the person who is saying it is deceived by those who would like to slam religion, or the person saying it is deceiving himself or others.

Here, try this other statement:

"... millions of people who believe in God have been killed by those who don't believe in God" .

That's just as valid isn't it? But it gives the exact opposite impression of the first one. Neither gives the full picture, but either can be used to manipulate and justify one's point of view. Basically millions of people have been killed because, exactly like Sandra said, people want more power, and being basically animals, we tend to do what we have to to get it.

Hitler, Ghengis Khan, WW I ... I don't think they killed for God. And even when people say they were marching off to war in the name of God ... the Crusades, the Bosnian war of the 90s (wasn't that Muslims against Christians?), "religious" people killing doctors because they sometimes perform abortions ... I wouldn't bet that God signed off on those either.

So, IMO, it's important not to get too caught up in the rhetoric when having a discussion like this. It helps to look at the statements one is making, and then ask whether the "other side" could make a similar statement,just as valid, that supports their point of view.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: alexis on July 08, 2008, 12:52:19 PM
Quote from: 56

The Ten Commandments too have been passed through for thousands of years with the risk of being distorted by humans along the way. And there's absolute proof that this happened, as there are currently four versions of the Ten Commandments (Jewish, Angelican/Reformed, Orthodox, Roman Catholic/Lutheran).

Well I am of the Reformed tradition, and we use the Jewish old testament, so we have the same 10 Commandments as the Jews do. So at least part of your statement is not true at all  :)  I'd bet at least a java mocha that the Catholic and Lutherans use the same 10 Commandments as well. Where did you get your info?

BTW - I agree with what I think is the basic premise of your post ... the word of God is not irrefutably in the Bible, as it was written by man. But I don't think your post supports that completely ...
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 08, 2008, 01:40:07 PM
Quote from: 568
Well I am of the Reformed tradition, and we use the Jewish old testament, so we have the same 10 Commandments as the Jews do. So at least part of your statement is not true at all  :)  I'd bet at least a java mocha that the Catholic and Lutherans use the same 10 Commandments as well. Where did you get your info?

I am the Lord your God = Jewish: First Commandment, Anglican/Reformed: preface, Orthodox: 1/2 of the First Commandment, Roman Catholic/Lutheran: 1/3 of the First Commandment
You shall have no other gods before Me = Jewish: 1/2 of the Second Commandment, Anglican/Reformed: First Commandment, Orthodox: 1/2 of the First Commandment, Roman Catholic/Lutheran: 1/3 of the First Commandment
You shall not make for yourself an idol = Jewish: 1/2 of the Second Commandment, Anglican/Reformed: Second Commandment, Orthodox: Second Commandment, Roman Catholic/Lutheran: 1/3 of the First Commandment.
You shall not murder The Roman Catholic church translates this as "You shall not kill" (yes, there's a difference).
You shall not steal It's uncertain if the word that was translated as 'steal' actually meant 'steal' or 'kidnap'.
You shall not covet = Jewish, Anglican/Reformed, Orthodox: Tenth Commandment, Roman Catholic: spliced into the Ninth ("You shall not covet your neighbor's house") and Tenth Commandment ("You shall not covet your neightbor's wife", or in some Lutheran churches "You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his workers, or his cattle, or anything that is your neighbor's").

So it's undeniable that there's been at least a little bit of distortion along the way... Above the fact that nobody can be 100% sure (yeah, I know - it's a faith thing...  :)) that the Ten Commandments were actually handed to Moses by God.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Bobber on July 08, 2008, 02:23:31 PM
I see I can not make myself clear enough. Never mind.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: alexis on July 08, 2008, 03:54:57 PM
Quote from: 56

I am the Lord your God = Jewish: First Commandment, Anglican/Reformed: preface, Orthodox: 1/2 of the First Commandment, Roman Catholic/Lutheran: 1/3 of the First Commandment
You shall have no other gods before Me = Jewish: 1/2 of the Second Commandment, Anglican/Reformed: First Commandment, Orthodox: 1/2 of the First Commandment, Roman Catholic/Lutheran: 1/3 of the First Commandment
You shall not make for yourself an idol = Jewish: 1/2 of the Second Commandment, Anglican/Reformed: Second Commandment, Orthodox: Second Commandment, Roman Catholic/Lutheran: 1/3 of the First Commandment.
You shall not murder The Roman Catholic church translates this as "You shall not kill" (yes, there's a difference).
You shall not steal It's uncertain if the word that was translated as 'steal' actually meant 'steal' or 'kidnap'.
You shall not covet = Jewish, Anglican/Reformed, Orthodox: Tenth Commandment, Roman Catholic: spliced into the Ninth ("You shall not covet your neighbor's house") and Tenth Commandment ("You shall not covet your neightbor's wife", or in some Lutheran churches "You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his workers, or his cattle, or anything that is your neighbor's").

So it's undeniable that there's been at least a little bit of distortion along the way... Above the fact that nobody can be 100% sure (yeah, I know - it's a faith thing...  :)) that the Ten Commandments were actually handed to Moses by God.


These are very high expectations for translation of documents that are thousands of years old, I think this is a case of missing the forest for the trees (or the burning bush  ;) ). Scholars have disagreements about all sorts of ancient translations, what is the rational basis for expecting Biblical era texts to be any different, requiring their translations to be crystalline clear?  

But stepping back, focusing on things like comparisons of translations and the like isn't really what it's all about, IMO.There is no irrefutable proof of all these things, that is why it is called faith. We all seek to find our place as we move along our life journey, and what is right for some may not be the best for others. In the end, I think these things are best pondered by looking in, rather than out.  
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 08, 2008, 04:36:52 PM
You shouldn't underestimate what a few translation errors can do. I discussed this with a friend of mine who has a doctorate in history and has read the New Testament in its original language and he believes that there are possibly some crucial translation errors in the New Testament as we know it. It is for instance possible that the whole theory of the immaculate conception of the Virgin Mary was based on a translation error, as the original word that was translated as 'Virgin' can also mean 'beautiful'. So it could be that the 'Virgin Mary' was really just 'Beautiful Mary'.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Jane on July 08, 2008, 06:02:37 PM
Quote from: 568

Well, as said above, that is why it is called "faith", not "knowledge", or "theory".  :)

Even within any one of the major religions there are widely varying interpretations of the will of God, and so it's no surprise they also exist between them. If one believes in the afterlife, though, it wouldn't seem that unreasonable for there to be consequences to choices made in this life. So in that case it might not be as silly as you describe... it seems easy enough to imagine that a self-sacrificing altruistic care giver (like Mother Theresa, perhaps, though I really don't know a lot about her) would have an easier time avoiding being "punished in the afterlife" than some greedy robber baron who knowingly causes pain and destruction for their own personal benefit.

I've noticed that it's not that unusual to hear people that have had bad experiences with the religous community, either directly or indirectly, then go on to broad brush believers in God as evil, intolerant, bad, etc. IMO, there are good apples and bad apples in every group of people, and this applies to religous people as well as non-believers. It's ironic (I think that's the right word) that these same people's self-proclaimed identity is often one of extreme tolerance of differences among humanity - but it's quite OK to relax the standards of avoiding prejudgement/prejudice when considering the religous community!

Just for the record, this isn't meant to describe you Joost, I've had absolutely no indication at all that you are anything but one who loves their fellow man (in the general sense ;-) ) This is just something that came to mind as I started typing. I hope I don't come across as a right wing nut case ... but then who does?  :)


Absolutely agree!!! with the thing about faith.
 People profess different religions, but these don`t contradict one another, they are about the same things, amasing as it might seem! as if they all came from one source! They direct us in our life and all show the way up ( not down, mind it ) though the actual way to reach the top is different in every religion. Nobody knows who is more right, whose path is more straight. And we needn`t know it...
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Jane on July 08, 2008, 06:19:26 PM
Bobber, you have interpreted my words in the wrong way, sorry! I feel upset that the world it turning unisex, no nice guys, women don`t look female, chidren are not spared certain things. You write "Your belief..." and do you know what my belief is? I haven`t said a word about it! So, you can`t put it this way. I am just giving you some ideas. If i write about Sodom and G. i write what is commonly known and express my concern, kind of worry. By the way, i stated my position on gays, they should have the rights! I have a gay friend, and i support him in everything. But there are some unresolved questions...
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Sondra on July 08, 2008, 07:20:13 PM
Quote from: 63
I see I can not make myself clear enough. Never mind.

I think I understand what you're saying and I'm not denying that religion is many times the cause (or excuse) for much pain, suffering, and intolerance in the world. But you can't deny that religion has played a positive role in many peoples lives as well. It's not so black and white. Those who kill in the name of their God do so at the behest of a manipulative, power hungry leader whose motives have nothing to do with God most of the time. There are cults, NON religious cults, that achieve the same insanity. It has nothing to do with God or faith. It's the mass organization of weak minded people or broken down people who need to have someone to follow. It's just too damn bad that a lot of times the PERSON they choose to follow is nothing more than a sociopath who wants nothing more than to have power over people.

However, religion can often become very cultish. Not always dangerous, but mindless none the less. I went to a born again Christian church a couple of times with a girl I met at work. Don't ask me why! It freaked me out! I started to feel like I was in a room of brain washed sheep. They were all too much alike. Very creepy. Not at all how church was when I was growing up which was more robotic. Stand up, kneel, sit down, etc. Most people just going through the motions until they can get home and watch football.

BTW, you shouldn't get frustrated. You make a lot of great points. I hope you don't take the debate as an argument or attack. It's certainly not meant that way! In a discussion as heavy as this, it's hard to ever know who is wrong and who is right. If anyone!  :)
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Sondra on July 08, 2008, 07:30:29 PM
Quote from: 56

I am the Lord your God = Jewish: First Commandment, Anglican/Reformed: preface, Orthodox: 1/2 of the First Commandment, Roman Catholic/Lutheran: 1/3 of the First Commandment
You shall have no other gods before Me = Jewish: 1/2 of the Second Commandment, Anglican/Reformed: First Commandment, Orthodox: 1/2 of the First Commandment, Roman Catholic/Lutheran: 1/3 of the First Commandment
You shall not make for yourself an idol = Jewish: 1/2 of the Second Commandment, Anglican/Reformed: Second Commandment, Orthodox: Second Commandment, Roman Catholic/Lutheran: 1/3 of the First Commandment.
You shall not murder The Roman Catholic church translates this as "You shall not kill" (yes, there's a difference).
You shall not steal It's uncertain if the word that was translated as 'steal' actually meant 'steal' or 'kidnap'.
You shall not covet = Jewish, Anglican/Reformed, Orthodox: Tenth Commandment, Roman Catholic: spliced into the Ninth ("You shall not covet your neighbor's house") and Tenth Commandment ("You shall not covet your neightbor's wife", or in some Lutheran churches "You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his workers, or his cattle, or anything that is your neighbor's").

So it's undeniable that there's been at least a little bit of distortion along the way... Above the fact that nobody can be 100% sure (yeah, I know - it's a faith thing...  :)) that the Ten Commandments were actually handed to Moses by God.

You're splitting hairs here. Lots of semantics at play. Yet the overall message remains the same. I would say it's pretty much common sense that if you're not supposed to covet your neighbor's wife then that means you should pretty much stay away from his cattle too. Or his BMW for that matter.

And again, these are not the LAW for Christians. But then I already went into that on another post that apparently meant nothing.
Quote
(yeah, I know - it's a faith thing...  :))
Condescending? Nah!  ;)
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Mairi on July 08, 2008, 07:31:16 PM
Yes, it's a very complex issue. We can't just make blanket statements like "all religion is bad" or "all religion is evil". There are many layers.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 09, 2008, 06:30:42 AM
Quote from: 216
You're splitting hairs here. Lots of semantics at play. Yet the overall message remains the same.

I know the differences are minimal. But it's a fact that there are differences in interpretation/translation, there's censorship (the Catholic church pretty much omitted "You shall not make for yourself an idol" and replaced it by splicing the Tenth Commandment in two) and apparently some people took the liberty of slightly rearranging the first two commandments... I'd say it would take some nerves to take what you believe to be the Word of God and even slightly rearrange it...

I was just trying to show that even something as (seemingly) clear and simple as the Ten Commandments have been subject to distortion by humans. So who knows what might have happened to all those more complex stories in the Bible that so many people take VERY literally?
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Sondra on July 09, 2008, 07:10:14 AM
Quote from: 56

So who knows what might have happened to all those more complex stories in the Bible that so many people take VERY literally?

That's the real problem. It's SO not meant to be taken literally, yet that's what people insist on doing. Again, mostly to justify their own hang ups.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Bobber on July 09, 2008, 07:37:46 AM
Quote from: 216
BTW, you shouldn't get frustrated. You make a lot of great points.

I bet you're referring to the Bob Spitz-remark!  ;D
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Kevin on July 09, 2008, 02:47:53 PM
I try and draw a distinction between faith and religion (I'm totally Godless by the way.) All human societies everywhere at everytime have had some kind of belief. But anything organised on any scale by humans will be corrupted - religion, politics, the music business etc etc. I think to denounce religion for this is to miss a basic point about human nature.
And I can't forget that faith (and therefore I guess religion - we humans love to organise ) must have been a huge evolutionary tool for bonding societies, and if that was achieved at the cost of a distrust of non-believers or a false sense of superiority so be it. I for one don't want to go back to sitting in trees throwing turds at hyenas.
For many years I had complete faith in science to provide the answers we all want. But now when I read about things like string theory (completerly unmeasurable, unobservable and uneverything else) science has invented in an attempt to explain why things we thought were universal like space, time and gravity don't appear to work (or even exist) once we start delving into the world beyond the one we can see, has made me loose a lot of faith in science as well. Isn't inventing a completely unproveable theory to explain something we don't understand the very thing scientists have been mocking the faithful for doing for years?
I think Geoff said it earlier - maybe there are some things we aren't meant to understand. We are after all just chatty apes. But we all ask the questions. Fine by me if people find those answers in religion. And before anyone uses the old cliche "but religion causes wars" - so does politics. But we accept politics downside as an unfortunate consequence of the good things it provides. I think we should accord religion the same respect.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Geoff on July 09, 2008, 03:11:21 PM
Slight correction: not "not meant to understand-" can't understand; my point was that human mental capacities are limited just like they are for every other creature on the planet, but we can't see that fact because we've the best brains of the lot. It's easy for us to see that a cat's brain is limited, but there's no creature on Earth to show us how our brains are limited, too.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 09, 2008, 03:49:10 PM
I think that deep down, every human being knows in his heart what's wrong and what's right. We all know we shouldn't kill, steal, lie, cheat or be an aggressive prick in general etc. And I think the only thing that really matters is that you try to not do the things that you know you shouldn't do. Everything that organized religion adds to that are to me just culturally determined rituals. Nothing more than that.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: alexis on July 09, 2008, 05:53:59 PM
Quote from: 56
I think that deep down, every human being knows in his heart what's wrong and what's right. We all know we shouldn't kill, steal, lie, cheat or be an aggressive prick in general etc. And I think the only thing that really matters is that you try to not do the things that you know you shouldn't do. Everything that organized religion adds to that are to me just culturally determined rituals. Nothing more than that.

We run into problems here, I believe. Whose definition of wrong or right? If it were mine, the world would be just fine. But if it were that guy's over there, we've got problems ...

Also, there are lots of people that don't know what is allowed or not allowed. Those are the ones that can't be held liable for their actions (in our country we call it innocent by reasons of insanity). You gotta wonder about Phil Spector too, I'd blame him for LIB otherwise ...

Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Jane on July 09, 2008, 06:39:23 PM
Quote from: 568

We run into problems here, I believe. Whose definition of wrong or right? If it were mine, the world would be just fine. But if it were that guy's over there, we've got problems ...

Also, there are lots of people that don't know what is allowed or not allowed. Those are the ones that can't be held liable for their actions (in our country we call it innocent by reasons of insanity). You gotta wonder about Phil Spector too, I'd blame him for LIB otherwise ...


I agree. Who can tell right from wrong? Some governments tried to do it. People believed them, by the way. And where are they now? Removed, overthrown, gone. And now everybody believes they were wrong, we are sure they were wrong. What can secure us from further mistakes? And religion has gone through centuries and even millenniums, many people have questioned it and rejected it and what - back to basics, it`s still there. Look at Russia- no religion for 70 years enough to kill any religious sentiment, to nip in the bud, two generations without religion. And what? Now a lot of people there go to church. Nobody knows yet anything better, more unbiased, devoid of human interest, if i may put it this way.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 09, 2008, 11:33:43 PM
Quote from: 568
Also, there are lots of people that don't know what is allowed or not allowed.

Just because people do things that are wrong doesn't mean that they don't know it's wrong... If they're honest to themselves...
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Sondra on July 10, 2008, 12:43:11 AM
(http://photos.waiting-forthe-sun.net/Graphics/Candids%201/candid_o.jpg)

(teeth1)
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Sondra on July 10, 2008, 02:31:58 AM
Quote from: 63

I bet you're referring to the Bob Spitz-remark!  ;D

LOL!  ;D


Well, your Beatle knowledge is unquestionable! No question about it. I would never question you knowledge of the Beatles.  :X
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Sondra on July 10, 2008, 02:34:45 AM
Quote from: 56

Just because people do things that are wrong doesn't mean that they don't know it's wrong... If they're honest to themselves...

People without a conscience think they are justified in doing whatever it is they want to do. They don't believe the same standards of behavior apply to them. And people who are clinically insane very well might not know wrong from right. But I think this is a very select few.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Jane on July 10, 2008, 06:23:25 PM
A human being tends to justify themselves in everything. Then they start to believe that it was even the only possible and correct thing to do. Be honest to yourself and remember several occasions you did it too. Human nature is imperfect.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Kevin on July 11, 2008, 08:15:30 AM
Quote from: 568
"... millions of people who believe in God have been killed by those who don't believe in God" .

Hitler, Ghengis Khan, WW I ... I don't think they killed for God. And even when people say they were marching off to war in the name of God ... the Crusades, the Bosnian war of the 90s (wasn't that Muslims against Christians?), "religious" people killing doctors because they sometimes perform abortions ... I wouldn't bet that God signed off on those either.

Oh baby. I think most wars are the result of ethnic conflict. Religion is one of the major things an ethnic group uses to identify and differentiate itself, ergo......
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 11, 2008, 08:28:32 AM
Quote from: 185
Oh baby. I think most wars are the result of ethnic conflict. Religion is one of the major things an ethnic group uses to identify and differentiate itself, ergo......

Good point...

The troubles in Northern Ireland for instance are often described as a conflict between protestants and catholics, but I think it's safe to say that religion didn't actually have a whole lot to do with that.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: BlueMeanie on July 11, 2008, 08:59:28 AM
Quote from: 56

Good point...

The troubles in Northern Ireland for instance are often described as a conflict between protestants and catholics, but I think it's safe to say that religion didn't actually have a whole lot to do with that.

Religion really had nothing to do with it at all. This was a struggle between the Nationalists (predominately Catholic), and the Unionists (predominately Protestant), about Northern Ireland's status within the UK. Not about whether it was right or wrong to be of either faith.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Joost on July 11, 2008, 09:33:47 AM
Quote from: 483

Religion really had nothing to do with it at all. This was a struggle between the Nationalists (predominately Catholic), and the Unionists (predominately Protestant), about Northern Ireland's status within the UK. Not about whether it was right or wrong to be of either faith.

Yet if you're dealing with a principally catholic and a principally protestant camp that hate each other's guts it's inevitable that religion will get dragged into the whole thing. Even the IRA and UVF obviously did a lot of things that in no way can be religiously justified.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: BlueMeanie on July 11, 2008, 09:39:01 AM
Quote from: 56

Yet if you're dealing with a principally catholic and a principally protestant camp that hate each other's guts it's inevitable that religion will get dragged into the whole thing. Even the IRA and UVF obviously did a lot of things that in no way can be religiously justified.

Oh sure, but it wasn't what started it, or even what drove it on. I think there's been more violence at a Rangers-Celtic match because of religious beliefs. The thing is that it was your religion that singled you out - so if you were Catholic, people would assume you were a Nationalist. Even if you weren't.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Jane on July 11, 2008, 10:45:56 AM
Quote from: 185

Oh baby. I think most wars are the result of ethnic conflict. Religion is one of the major things an ethnic group uses to identify and differentiate itself, ergo......

I think most wars are the result of striving for power. At least that`s what they appear to have been so far. Future conflicts or wars may be racial ones.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Kevin on July 11, 2008, 11:45:37 AM
Quote from: 1393

I think most wars are the result of striving for power. At least that`s what they appear to have been so far. Future conflicts or wars may be racial ones.

Both Germany and Japan considered their racial superiority the basis for their territorial rights. the majority of Stalins crimes were commiterd against non-Russian ethnic groups. I think it is very much with us now.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Jane on July 11, 2008, 02:06:53 PM
Quote from: 185

Both Germany and Japan considered their racial superiority the basis for their territorial rights. the majority of Stalins crimes were commiterd against non-Russian ethnic groups. I think it is very much with us now.

Oh, yes, i agree with you. The strange thing is that Stalin himself wasn`t a Russian, he was a Georgian from the South of the country. He removed some ethnic groups to other parts, for example the Crimean Tatars, and eliminated, killed, a large amount of educated people, especially scientists, of various nationalities. The world hasn`t grown any wiser.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Sondra on November 06, 2008, 01:07:00 AM
I knew we were getting ahead of ourselves with the congratulations:


[size=14]California Approves Gay Marriage Ban[/size]
By LISA LEFF


LOS ANGELES (Nov. 5) - Voters put a stop to same-sex marriage in California, dealing a crushing defeat to gay-rights activists in a state they hoped would be a vanguard, and putting in doubt as many as 18,000 same-sex marriages conducted since a court ruling made them legal this year.

The gay-rights movement had a rough election elsewhere as well Tuesday. Ban-gay-marriage amendments were approved in Arizona and Florida, and Arkansas voters approved a measure banning unmarried couples from serving as adoptive or foster parents. Supporters made clear that gays and lesbians were their main target.

But California, the nation's most populous state, had been the big prize. Spending for and against Proposition 8 reached $74 million, the most expensive social-issues campaign in U.S. history and the most expensive campaign this year outside the race for the White House. Activists on both sides of the issue saw the measure as critical to building momentum for their causes.

"People believe in the institution of marriage," Frank Schubert, co-manager of the Yes on 8 campaign said after declaring victory early Wednesday. "It's one institution that crosses ethnic divides, that crosses partisan divides. ... People have stood up because they care about marriage and they care a great deal."
With almost all precincts reporting, election returns showed the measure winning with 52 percent. Some provisional and absentee ballots remained to be tallied, but based on trends and the locations of the votes still outstanding, the margin of support in favor of the initiative was secure.
Exit polls for The Associated Press found that Proposition 8 received critical support from black voters who flocked to the polls to support Barack Obama for president. Blacks voted strongly in favor of the ban, while whites narrowly opposed it and Latinos and Asians were split.
Californians overwhelmingly passed a same-sex marriage ban in 2000, but gay-rights supporters had hoped public opinion on the issue had shifted enough for this year's measure to be rejected.

"We pick ourselves up and trudge on," said Kate Kendell, executive director of the National Center for Lesbian Rights. "There has been enormous movement in favor of full equality in eight short years. That is the direction this is heading, and if it's not today or it's not tomorrow, it will be soon."
The constitutional amendment limits marriage to heterosexual couples, nullifying the California Supreme Court decision that had made same-sex marriages legal in the state since June.

Similar bans had prevailed in 27 states before Tuesday's elections, but none were in California's situation
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: alexis on November 06, 2008, 01:12:38 AM
Well, I suspect this is just the end of the beginning, and there will be more to the story. The demographics of those who voted in favor of the ban (old) as opposed to those who were against the ban (young) suggest this will probably pass when it comes up again over the next few years.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Mairi on November 06, 2008, 01:13:03 AM
I'm really shocked that gay marriage was voted down in California of all places. It may be sort of a superficial state, but with LA (known for being liberal), and San Francisco, one of the biggest gay communities, I really thought that gay marriage was going to happen. *sigh*

However, I think Obama will definitely change this gay marriage situation.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Sondra on November 06, 2008, 01:28:58 AM
Eddie Izzard on California:


..."he said,
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Penny Lane on November 06, 2008, 01:31:51 AM
I'm from California and I am furious, saddened, and embarrassed that the gay marriage ban passed.  People are ridiculous in their reasoning against gay marriage.  "Protecting the sanctity of marriage" my arse.  Straight people screw up marriage all the damn time.  If people were truly so concerned about "protecting marriage," then why not ban divorce too?  This kind of political rhetoric does not make sense to me personally, and it just seems like more of a disguise to hide possible hatred, prejudice, and blind ignorance against homosexuals.

BTW, being a native of the state, I don't exactly appreciate having us being called superficial.  It's just as unfair as saying all New Yorkers are rude or that anyone from the South is a hick.  I don't want to start an argument or anything, but I'm just saying it's an unfair sweeping generalization.  It's not like we all think and act like Paris Hilton.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Sondra on November 06, 2008, 01:39:56 AM
And most of the flakes are transplants from other states. My best friend, who is a native to Los Angeles says every now and then God tips the country to its side and all the lunatics land in California. I tease her a lot about LA and its so called superficiality, but she gives it right back about those loud, obnoxious people we know as New Yorkers. It's okay if it's all in fun, but yeah, generalizing the population of a state that's bigger than most countries is a bit unfair.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Penny Lane on November 06, 2008, 01:46:10 AM
^  Thanks, Sandra. :)

I didn't mean to sound uptight, but it gets annoying when outsiders judge us all based on the various kooky celebrities in our state.  I love that California is pretty weird in some parts, but I just wanted to get the word out that we're not all vacuous and stupid too.  ;)
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: alexis on November 06, 2008, 01:55:36 AM
Quote from: 568
...Hitler, Ghengis Khan, WW I ... I don't think they killed for God. And even when people say they were marching off to war in the name of God ... the Crusades, the Bosnian war of the 90s (wasn't that Muslims against Christians?), "religious" people killing doctors because they sometimes perform abortions ... I wouldn't bet that God signed off on those either.
  
Quote from: 185

Oh baby. I think most wars are the result of ethnic conflict. Religion is one of the major things an ethnic group uses to identify and differentiate itself, ergo......


There may be an ergo in there, but I don't see it. You say most wars are the result of ethnic conflict. I listed Hitler, Ghengis Khan, WWI - do you think these were? WWI, WWII, the Korean war, the Vietnamese war, the Maldives/Falkland war - these wars were all between people who prayed to the same God, do you classify them as ethnic/religious wars?  What about the wars Rome had, weren't they for the sake of territory and resources more than "ethnicity"? Sure some wars are ethnically/religiously based (Iraq/Iran, Israel/Palestinians), but there are so many that aren't that I would think it might be a bit of a stretch to say most are.

I'd be very interested in hearing if you think these were ethnically/religiously based.  
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Mairi on November 12, 2008, 01:36:27 AM
Quote from: 1620
BTW, being a native of the state, I don't exactly appreciate having us being called superficial.  It's just as unfair as saying all New Yorkers are rude or that anyone from the South is a hick.  I don't want to start an argument or anything, but I'm just saying it's an unfair sweeping generalization.  It's not like we all think and act like Paris Hilton.

You're right. I'm sorry. I don't really think that all Californians are superficial, that was just sort of an offhanded comment.

You are now free to make a joke about seal-clubbing, alcoholic Nova Scotians.

Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Penny Lane on November 12, 2008, 04:04:27 AM
^  It's okay, all is forgiven.............[size=9]stupid Canadian[/size].............just kidding!!   :P :P :P
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: harihead on November 12, 2008, 07:30:42 AM
Keith Olbermann has a wonderful, moving, eloquently expressed special commentary on the gay marriage ban.

hnHyy8gkNEE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnHyy8gkNEE)
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Mairi on November 13, 2008, 01:59:01 AM
That was really touching, harihead. Thanks for posting it.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: HeatherBoo on November 14, 2008, 03:01:21 AM
It is a shame that prop 8 passed...I was very shocked.  I just don't understand why people care so much what two grown adults that love each other want to do.  Everytime I ask someone against gay marriage why they believe what they do, it always boils down to the bible. And I respect people and their religions but you cannot force your religious beliefs on others. If you think gay people are going to burn in hell, then let them worry about it and mind your own business.  This is a form of discrimination.  
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: harihead on November 14, 2008, 07:12:49 AM
Quote from: 1204
If you think gay people are going to burn in hell, then let them worry about it and mind your own business.  
*applauds*

Well said!

Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Geoff on November 14, 2008, 10:21:54 AM
^ Indeed.  :)
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Jane on November 14, 2008, 08:50:36 PM
I think it has a lot to do with children and their ability to absorb things. When society says it`s ok, you go and taste it. Certainly grown-ups won`t suddenly change, but children, who don`t know what they are yet, might get the taste. Because basically it all comes from the head. And the seduction is dangerous: Look, the drugs are sold in the school lounge, why not go and take them, and you are drawn into it... I want the new generation to have a straight way of life, to have children of their own, then their own grandchildren. They can also adopt a child...Or else humanity will vanish from the surface of the earth. But once a person realizes the fact that they are gay, then nothing to be done about it. I have absolutely no problem with it, with such people. I have such a friend, not a close one though.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Sondra on November 15, 2008, 12:54:05 AM
Some people voted for it because they didn't agree with the California Supreme Court "abandoning its role as an objective interpreter of the law and instead legislating from the bench."

I'm not sure how many, but it was part of all those advertisements. A lot of people weren't happy with the court basically acting outside of their rights. These renegade judges don't always help the cause by doing these kinds of things. But this issue isn't dead. Not by a long shot.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: harihead on November 15, 2008, 12:54:16 AM
Jane, are you speaking from personal experience? "children, who don`t know what they are yet, might get the taste" -- How will sanctioning marriage between two adult people give children a "taste" for homosexuality? I don't follow this argument at all. I grew up in a drug-heavy neighborhood and never acquired a "taste". Are you just repeating myths, or do you have any evidence?

"basically it all comes from the head." - That is an unsupported opinion. Science and studies of the natural world strongly indicate homosexuality is genetic-- about 10% of the animal world demonstrates homosexual behavior. Humans are natural creatures. It's entirely reasonable to me to suppose, if 10% of racehorses are gay (they call them "reluctant breeders") and so on with cattle and chimpanzees and mice and what have you, why wouldn't 10% of humans be gay? It's a natural percentage of the population. The whole race isn't going to die out any more than it will because a minority is hemophiliac, or albino, or diabetic. It's just another natural expression.  

"I want the new generation to have a straight way of life" - Fine, you can want that all you like. But it isn't right to impose your wishes on other people who are doing no harm, just trying to express who they are. They can get beat up for holding hands in public. How would you like the tables turned if you were in the minority? The greatness of a people lies in how well they protect those who are in the minority-- the ones who do disagree with the majority, the basic rights of whom our Founding Fathers were so keen to put into the Constitution. I really don't understand why people are so keen to legislate what other people can do in their own time in their own homes, that doesn't hurt any other person in the world. Laws are to protect the common good. Nothing is being endangered here. Why all the fuss?
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Jane on November 15, 2008, 07:29:06 PM
No fuss at all. You shouldn`t worry! Everything is ok. Gays are protected and fine. Nothing bad is going to happen to them.
Moreover, you have the whole states in the USA to accomodate them and the whole large gay communities living next to other people, which I learned from your posts. They will get married, make families, adopt children, who will look at them day and night. And their adopted children will turn gay when they grow up. I just expressed concern about children, gays` adopted ones and children on the whole who will see such families which will be created. I take into account chidren`s ability to imitate and absorb, their delicate phyche. Since I am in education, I know a thing or two about it. It is also proved that if a child is raised by a gay parent he/she becomes gay. Or if a boy is raised by women, and sisters make him play with dolls, dress him like a girl for fun, that can also have an influence. Maybe you are right, there are genetically-disposed people, but a great lot are drawn into this diversion. It is done by active propaganda, one part of which is parades, by developing an expanding glamorous attractive sub-culture, showing it in the mass media and telling everybody that it`s ok, just go and take it. Even you say, influenced by the propaganda, that all those people are genetically-gay. Whereas they are not. Some are victims.
But by no means am I going to change your mind on the issue (as I myself have nothing against them!). And I know that nobody will agree with me here since it is politically incorrect to question at least anything concerning gays. And if we take gays` rights, one - to be able to show their ways, and children`s rights - to be spared from seeing this, I know that you will vote for gays, out of the two opposite rights you will choose gays`. But I will vote for children. Gays can do anything in their homes, clubs though...
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: HeatherBoo on November 15, 2008, 08:01:02 PM
^^I disagree what so many things in that statement. But let me just put it this way...


Kids are going to grow up and see it anyways...Gay people are not going to go away.  To take away the rights of people just because you do not know how to explain to a child what is happening to me seems kind of selfish and it is discrimination.


Just one other thing....I didn't want to get going but, just because a gay couple adopts a child...does not mean that child will turn gay. Period.  I know because I have seen it with my own eyes.

I hope that doesn't come off harsh, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and I do respect that.  I guess I have just become passionate about this issue.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Jane on November 15, 2008, 08:27:33 PM
HeatherBoo, I absolutely believe you! You maybe right. Maybe I am wrong, but i am concerned.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: HeatherBoo on November 15, 2008, 08:34:51 PM
I want to apologize again if I came off harsh Jane.  Just like I do not like others to oppose their beliefs on me, I shouldn't to others.  I guess I just wanted to share what I felt and how I feel, as do you.  

That is why I am happy I live where I live where we can speak our minds and vote on issues. In other countries, that is not possible.
Title: Re: Congrats California on legalising gay marriage!
Post by: Penny Lane on November 15, 2008, 08:41:33 PM
While I cannot speak from personal experience, I don't think the children of gay parents will become gay themselves.  The same goes for the children of straight parents--they do not necessarily turn out straight.  Sexual orientation is not contagious; you are born into it.

I know some people are scared of teaching their children about homosexuality, but I learned about it when I was pretty young (9 or 10) and it did not disturb me or make me gay.