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Author Topic: Who Killed John?  (Read 15676 times)

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Joost

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Re: Who Killed John?
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2010, 11:28:58 PM »

This is the police artist drawing of the murder:


Chapman indeed was standing a bit to Lennon's right, but he surely could've shot him in the left side of his body from that position.
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Daveyo

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Re: Who Killed John?
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2010, 07:29:46 AM »

Maybe I am missing something, but if it was Yoko, why then didn`t the doorman Joe tell the police about it, as he witnessed the whole scene. It seems he said everything: who was where, on which side, who went first who followed, but not the most important fact - who fired.
Do you think Yoko took him into her confidence? This is impossible. She is a clever woman.
What happened might have been that Chapman stepped behind John when John passed him and fired. And Yoko might have already overtaken John, because John stopped to ask Chapman what he needed from him more, and that he had given his autograph to him in the morning. So - John stopped to say a few words to Chapman and Yoko passed them, John followed right after and Chapman looking at John`s back fired.

Hi Jane

No John did not stop to speak to Chapman according to the police statements and all of them verified that part even in Court!!!!.  This would mean that John was still ahead of Yoko at this point.  I suspect Yoko and the Doorman were involved in the planning of the hit, but lo and behold, the stories did change and some of it do not match on some parts of their statements.  Why the police did not see this behooves me and they should have investigated this incident a whole lot deeper.  

Come on, no one heard shots especially multi shots being fired?  That is unreal especially the desk person who was on duty that night.  Even I being a ordinary person or even Joost here would really wonder and ask around how come?  Whats going on would probably be my next question.  With Chapman just sitting out in the curb also raises up another spiffy question.  The statements itself is also spiffy to make a person do a double check.

Yes Yoko is a very clever woman.  I also do admit she is extremely very clever, and (suspiciously) might have pulled off a perfect situation.  Women do kill their spouses in a very sneaky way, and some go thru great lengths to avoid detection.  Yoko at that time was facing a possible Divorce from John because he indicated it a few times and told others he wanted out of the marriage.  No one cannot outrightly name the person who did the killing on a website as one can be sued to perdition.  

I suspect Yoko is the person who had the true motive, and the Doorman was paid handsomely because after this he left that job.  He disappeared after this too.  A co-incidence here or not.  MY ALLEGED SCENARIO>  I don't think Joe Perdomo fired the shots but I do think he provided Yoko with the means (a gun with a silencer), and she used that one, and emptied the magazine, then ran to the desk person to say John was shot, and while he was busy making that phone call, Yoko went back to Joe gave it to him and he switched the weapons around in a spiff and he in the meantime gave the backup gun to Chapman and told him to sit outside.  Yoko gets back to the deskclerk area after handing Joe the weapon.  During this brief chaos John then staggers up to the stairs and collapses next to the Desk Clerk area just in front of the stairs.  Joe had a clean backup gun with no prints on it and since he wore gloves it worked perfectly and once Chapman had it, bingo his prints are now on the gun.  In the meantime this other backup gun was previously fired so the smell would still be the same and being the same caliber.  Has to be otherwise the Police would have known the difference.  Joe took this weapon with the silencer and hid it quickly before the police came or possibly had another person take it out of there to keep the situation clean before they came and arrived.  It was reported that there was another person around the scene at that time.  A silencer skews up the bullets machine line marks when it leaves the chamber.  Thus ruining any chance on the ballistic tests.  Each barrel that is machined is different and hence its the fingerprint to trace to the weapon that was used when they do ballistic tests.

What I just said here is a very plausible scenario and this can be done in a matter of seconds.  All Joe has to do is stand there and let Yoko do the running etc, and switch the weapons around, and he takes care of that and its done.  Chapman gets the blame because now his fingerprints are on the backup gun which is what the police have today.  

Consider this similar to the infamous case in Los Angeles by a person named O.J. Simpson!!!!!!

This is what Yoko stood to lose had she been divorced from John.  Its quite substantial to say the least, and I think Joost would agree here too.

Millions in the Bank, all the rights to his music and albums, all the rights to his inheiritance USA and England, and all the previous contracts she signed with him gets null and voided!!!!!!  All she would get is paternity to take care of her kids, if she is awarded them, and some maintenance for herself.  Not to mention of the Jap culture of losing face among her people.  I also think immigrations came into play too but not sure.  There might be more too that I am not aware of today.

Joe on the other hand was a former CIA agent involved with the Cuban situation, and with extensive training in firing weapons, and he would never have to use more than one shot to kill someone.  He only got involved in this just for the money and the amount suited him just fine.  In a sense he provided the primary logistics for Yoko so she not get the blame.  As it turns out Chapman just happen to be there which was perfect for them to execute their plan at that moment of time.

Now understand this.  There is a picture of him getting an autograph from John who put it into his book called the Catcher in the Rye from the camera dicks who were following John, and this took place earlier in the day time.  So ask yourself why he wasn't shot at that time ehhhhh.   Also Chapman was not that familiar of New York.  He lived in Hawaii!!!!!  So I doubt very much if he even had any street connections with gang members to obtain any weapons, as the weapon that was used to kill John turned out to be stolen!!!!!!!!! from the serial numbers and they have it at the evidence room secured someplace.

Now you should begin to see the real picture and scenario of just what really happened.

Daveyo
« Last Edit: March 21, 2010, 07:53:35 AM by Daveyo »
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Daveyo

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Re: Who Killed John?
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2010, 08:05:56 AM »

This is the police artist drawing of the murder:


Chapman indeed was standing a bit to Lennon's right, but he surely could've shot him in the left side of his body from that position.


Joost my friend, if this was true, take another good look at that drawing.  The bullets would have to go at an angle shot.  Joe the Doorman was on Johns left side behind him as stated and Yoko says she was in the front of John.  The coroners report states as follows:

4 bullets entered on the left side of John and exited out the front of John on the left side chest area near the heart area STRAIGHT THRU.  If it was at an angle Joost my dear friend please think >  the coroner would have indicated that the bullets to have entered the left side angle wise and would have exited out on Johns left side only in the front where his left arms are at and it would probably also hit his left arm too!!!!!!.

Also take a look at the pic Joost, it shows Lennon turning to the right or leaning right side.  That picture clearly shows ANGLE SHOT.  Not a Direct straight thru shot according to the Coroner.

This picture does not show Joe Perdomos postition, or Yoko's position. I think Both were behind John when he was shot left side since Joe verified he was behind John at the time.

Here is where the difference in their statement came as follows:

Joe says Yoko was on the left side just a bit behind John and he also states he was behind John on the left side and states Chapman was to his right and right side of John.  Yoko says she was up in front of him and near the Desk area. 

These two statements do not add up.  I think Joe Perdomos statement is much closer to the truth!!!!!  and I think Yoko flat outright lied to the police all around.  Yoko also states that Chapman was the person who fired the shots.  If Yoko's official report to the police is to be held credible, then she would not have seen who fired the shots since she says she was in front and near the desk area.  The desk person says he never heard the shots fired, and says Yoko came up to him yelling that John was shot.  Driver of vehicle verifys John left first Yoko last, and Chap was on the right side.  The court documents states neither John or Chapman spoke to each other when he walked by him and when he got shot.  So why would the artist drawing show John sort of turning a bit to his right leaning to the right, and Chapman still on the right side??

If you follow Joes statement, the desk clerks statement, the vehicle drivers statement and add my theory of the scenario to it, everything falls right in place.  All you need to do is eliminate Yoko's statements cause that is the one that changes the entire situation and its all a ball face lie regarding herself, and the only truth she said was Chapman was on the right side of John. 

Talk about Agatha Christies murder mystery ehhhhhhh. orrrrrrrrrrrrr, Alfred Hitchcock!!!!!

check it out
« Last Edit: March 21, 2010, 08:58:45 AM by Daveyo »
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Jane

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Re: Who Killed John?
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2010, 08:07:25 PM »

Question 1: Was it a spontaneous killing according to your theory? If it was, how did they know that Chapman would be still sitting there waiting for them? So did they just seize at the chance? They came back, saw Chapman and immediately the same thought came to their minds. Yoko did her part of the plan and Joe cold-bloodedly did his. Very spontaneous killers. Masters of a kind! Such things can`t be spontaneous.
If it wasn`t a spontaneous murder, they had it planned, then Chapman was their accomplice. If he was then he pretended to be crazy and he agreed to help Yoko and took the gun from Joe. But why should a sane person want to go to jail?
If he was crazy how did they make him stay till the evening and wait for John? How did they make him obediently accept the gun and not protest? How could they rely on him not to reveal the truth because he had seen everything with his own eyes? This was very risky. very risky plan it must have been according to this version.
Seems impossible. If somebody wanted to kill John he could have killed him much more easily, an overdose for example.
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Joost

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Re: Who Killed John?
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2010, 07:52:28 AM »

If John wasn't shot, than how was he killed?

If someone would've wanted to kill John and have someone else blamed for it, than why did this person choose to do it in public, where several fans and journalists could've seen it?

Why did Chapman plead guilty if he didn't do it?
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Kevin

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Re: Who Killed John?
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2010, 09:34:08 AM »


Chapman indeed was standing a bit to Lennon's right, but he surely could've shot him in the left side of his body from that position.

Daveyo Daveyo. Once again you live in a world of wild assumptions.
Do you actually know that the angle of shots would be impossible? As well as an identification expert it seems you can add forensics to your CV. Again you're making assumptions then turning them into "facts" that don't exist
Re the doorman not hearing gunshots. Have you heard actual gunfire, especially a handun? It's not like the movies or TV - it's a very innocuilous popping sound, and this was a guy indoors, watching Telly, used to sounds from a busy city street. Again, you've turned an assumption into a fact. Please tell me you don't vote.
This is a little excerpt from one of your conspiracy sites. You guys find the "official" story of Lennons murder incredulous, bit are prepared to accept this kind of thing as credulous?
As Lennon passes, a member of the FBI's assassination squad transmits an audible message to Chapman which places him in a semi-hypnotic trance. It is unclear how the message is sent or who sent it. It may have been sent via laser beam, or perhaps Jose Perdomo whispered in his ear. Nevertheless, Chapman claims he heard a voice, although he is clearly not psychotic. The message triggers his mind to think he is about to kill Lennon. The message is simple: "Do it, do it, do it, do it."
« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 11:18:44 AM by Kevin »
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Joost

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Re: Who Killed John?
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2010, 09:53:16 AM »

Thank you Kevin, for once again being the voice of reason.  :)
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Daveyo

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Re: Who Killed John?
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2010, 02:36:11 PM »

Question 1: Was it a spontaneous killing according to your theory? If it was, how did they know that Chapman would be still sitting there waiting for them? So did they just seize at the chance? They came back, saw Chapman and immediately the same thought came to their minds. Yoko did her part of the plan and Joe cold-bloodedly did his. Very spontaneous killers. Masters of a kind! Such things can`t be spontaneous.
If it wasn`t a spontaneous murder, they had it planned, then Chapman was their accomplice. If he was then he pretended to be crazy and he agreed to help Yoko and took the gun from Joe. But why should a sane person want to go to jail?
If he was crazy how did they make him stay till the evening and wait for John? How did they make him obediently accept the gun and not protest? How could they rely on him not to reveal the truth because he had seen everything with his own eyes? This was very risky. very risky plan it must have been according to this version.
Seems impossible. If somebody wanted to kill John he could have killed him much more easily, an overdose for example.
 

Hi Jane

The questions you are asking here has to be directed to the people involved.  I and everybody else from the outside spectrum can only go by the police reports the statements given and the coroners reports and the scene itself and what evidence the police found at the crime scene and the news reports.

I cannot answer for them.  The questions you are asking is quite valid.

When the incident happened I am sure there was a lot of chaos going on and emotions were running high.  I do wish the police would have investigated this better but apparently they did not, and now today after everything has settled down, we are able to review it more closely and this is what I brought up because the questions and points about it are also valid as well.

 
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Daveyo

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Re: Who Killed John?
« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2010, 03:13:40 PM »

Daveyo Daveyo. Once again you live in a world of wild assumptions.
Do you actually know that the angle of shots would be impossible? As well as an identification expert it seems you can add forensics to your CV. Again you're making assumptions then turning them into "facts" that don't exist
Re the doorman not hearing gunshots. Have you heard actual gunfire, especially a handun? It's not like the movies or TV - it's a very innocuilous popping sound, and this was a guy indoors, watching Telly, used to sounds from a busy city street. Again, you've turned an assumption into a fact. Please tell me you don't vote.
This is a little excerpt from one of your conspiracy sites. You guys find the "official" story of Lennons murder incredulous, bit are prepared to accept this kind of thing as credulous?
As Lennon passes, a member of the FBI's assassination squad transmits an audible message to Chapman which places him in a semi-hypnotic trance. It is unclear how the message is sent or who sent it. It may have been sent via laser beam, or perhaps Jose Perdomo whispered in his ear. Nevertheless, Chapman claims he heard a voice, although he is clearly not psychotic. The message triggers his mind to think he is about to kill Lennon. The message is simple: "Do it, do it, do it, do it."


Kevin

Nothing in the statements so given by the police says that Chapman moved over to the left side to shoot John, and it was sworn under oath in Court that Chapman was on the RIGHT SIDE.  They all said he was on the right side of John. OK so prove to me Kevin that Chapman moved over to the left side.  And if so then why does it not say in those reports and not sworn under oath in Court either.   

Yes I have fired weapons and also fired weapons with silencers too.  Trust me the gun with the silencer is very very quiet.  The closest word I can describe the sound is Spiffffff Spiffffff like a whoosh of air coming out minus the loud actual sound being created by gunpowder.  Also even a two year old will tell you the direction when you point at something.  It does not take a brainer to know that based on the coroners report those shots came from the left side and not the right side Period.

Joe the Doorman never stated he heard gunshots being fired.  Look at the police report statements.  The desk clerk never heard the shots and again look at the police report statements.

In fact it was Yoko who first told the Deskclerk that her husband was shot.  Kinda strange huh.

oh and no one else stepped forward to the police telling them they heard shots either.  Why is that?

I have seen that place from real pics and its a hallway guaranteed to really send the sound straight out to that parking lot where the apartments are located and its a enclosed area which would mean that sound would be quite loud.

I have been inside a house when a gun went off during a party.  I am talking to my friends and when it went off, & I must have jumped 3 feet into the air, because my drink glass broke underneath me, and when I looked around being stunned by that loud pop,  totally surprised, I see another friend of mine on the floor holding his right thigh and in a lot of pain, and the gun was under the chair.  It turns out it was a 44 magnum that went off.  I took this friend of mine into my car, and we also gave the gun to someone else to get rid of it, and that person left.  I then left to take him to the hospital.  When I got back to the house, I was told the police arrived a few minutes after I left which means someone else heard the shot going off.  We told the police we were outside and a car went by and it hit the victim.   I still remember it to this day.  It was my friends son, and today he is dead and he died about 2 years ago.  It was not easy to get everybody with the same story line in record time before the police arrived. 

This incident in the house was a spontaneous thing.  The incident with John was not and I think more planned than spontaneous.

Ok since you say I am making assumptions, then explain why and I mean it too, why NO ONE HEARD SHOTS BEING FIRED.  Lets see what you got to say Plus the other questions I pose to you DIRECT.

I would love to hear your explanations now.

Another is why didn't Chapman shoot John when he got out of the car or when he came near him at the closest point.  Give me your reasons.  Chapman was very aware of the Doorman and Yoko being around.  So why not shoot him when the car driver is around as well.


Daveyo


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Joost

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Re: Who Killed John?
« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2010, 03:17:13 PM »

Once again: if nobody heard a shot, than how was he killed?
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Daveyo

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Re: Who Killed John?
« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2010, 03:37:54 PM »

Quote from Joost:
Why did Chapman plead guilty if he didn't do it?

At that time Joost do you honestly think that Chapman would have had and received a FAIR TRIAL?  The Beatles were still like jesus to almost every American, and John Lennon is so well known, it would be virtually impossible especially after the news of his death broke out WORLD WIDE.  At that time you would not be able to find anyone neutral.

He was told this in jail, and the lawyer gave him his options.  

This should answer that question.

Daveyo
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Daveyo

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Re: Who Killed John?
« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2010, 03:42:15 PM »

Once again: if nobody heard a shot, than how was he killed?


He was killed by a gun Joost and that gun had a SILENCER on it.  Pure and simple.
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Joost

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Re: Who Killed John?
« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2010, 03:49:26 PM »

Why was John killed with a silencer if they were going to blame it one someone who had a gun without a silencer?

Why does Chapman, if he's innocent, keep turning down 30-40 interview request per year?
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Kevin

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Re: Who Killed John?
« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2010, 04:08:00 PM »

Why was John killed with a silencer if they were going to blame it one someone who had a gun without a silencer?

Yeah baby yeah.

Daveyo: until i see a report by a respected forensic expert that it is impossible because of Chapmans position and Lennons position that those wounds couldn't have been made by Chapman's gun I'll take you a little more seriously.

Also the gunshots thing - until you can come up with a respected expert who can say those witnesses MUST have heard the gunshots if they came from Chapman's gun I'll give your nonsense some credence.

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The Swine

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Re: Who Killed John?
« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2010, 04:11:01 PM »

i say lets put our experts on the case

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The Swine

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Re: Who Killed John?
« Reply #35 on: March 22, 2010, 04:13:03 PM »

no fear tho. it wasnt really john but a fake john.
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Daveyo

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Re: Who Killed John?
« Reply #36 on: March 22, 2010, 04:29:52 PM »

Joost

In America, the potential Juror is asked certain questions before the case is heard.  One is do you know the victim (the name) and the next one is did you at any time hear or read in the news about the victim (the name)  If both are no then they go on to ask other questions like your background, and probe how you think and the law etc.  When done, then they decide to either accept you or reject you.  This is called exemptions.  The prosecutor has a certain number of exemptions and so does the defense.  If they don't like the Judge, then they ask for a change of venue of Judges  and they are allowed to strike some judges off the pool.  Then the judge is selected by a drawing of the name.  Now the case goes to that New Judge. 

There is a lot of pre -trial motions at the same time going on before the case is ever brought up to trial.  Like motions for Discovery, motions for particulars, motions to strike certain evidence etc and so forth.  Then they have an evidentiary hearing to determine if it is to be allowed to be used to court, then they have a list of witnesses who have to be subpenaed to court for testimony.

There is a lot of work for a trial Joost.



Daveyo
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Daveyo

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Re: Who Killed John?
« Reply #37 on: March 22, 2010, 04:48:34 PM »

Why was John killed with a silencer if they were going to blame it one someone who had a gun without a silencer?

Why does Chapman, if he's innocent, keep turning down 30-40 interview request per year?

Ah Joost, think about it please.  If they used a real gun then the desk clerk and other people would have heard shots fired!!!!! and definitely would be looking to see whats what.  The key to this point is the sworn statement from the Desk clerk that was on duty at that time. 

I told you about the incident where I was in a party and man that gun sound was deafening inside a house especially when you are not expecting such.  My eyeballs were bouncing all over the place for a few moments.  I was also surprised by my reflex reaction and my body went up into the air.  There were baby kids inside that house that night.  Lucky for everybody no one was killed and when a gun falls to the floor, its like playing russian roullete. 

By the way the slug went up under his thigh, and hit the thigh bone, and it traveled inside the bone and split it in half going downwards to his feet!!!!  It never left the body but it sure did a lot of damage because ever since then he had to walk with a cane up to his death.  His leg was completely messed up.

I was not aware that they have been wanting to interview him. If so,  He is still protected by lawyers even years later.  The question you asked is valid and I cannot tell you so it has to be directed to them.  It is possible maybe they also know something and they want to ask him. 
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Kevin

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Re: Who Killed John?
« Reply #38 on: March 22, 2010, 05:09:26 PM »

Ah Joost, think about it please.  If they used a real gun then the desk clerk and other people would have heard shots fired!!!!! and definitely would be looking to see whats what.  The key to this point is the sworn statement from the Desk clerk that was on duty at that time.  

I told you about the incident where I was in a party and man that gun sound was deafening inside a house especially when you are not expecting such.  My eyeballs were bouncing all over the place for a few moments.  I was also surprised by my reflex reaction and my body went up into the air.  There were baby kids inside that house that night.  Lucky for everybody no one was killed and when a gun falls to the floor, its like playing russian roullete.  


Please don't compare your reaction to a .44 going off in a confined space to someone elses reaction to a .38 discharging is a busy New York Street.
Please. There are too many variables.

You keep saying "must have" to so many things without absolutely nothing to back you up.
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Daveyo

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Re: Who Killed John?
« Reply #39 on: March 22, 2010, 05:20:36 PM »

Yeah baby yeah.

Daveyo: until i see a report by a respected forensic expert that it is impossible because of Chapmans position and Lennons position that those wounds couldn't have been made by Chapman's gun I'll take you a little more seriously.

Also the gunshots thing - until you can come up with a respected expert who can say those witnesses MUST have heard the gunshots if they came from Chapman's gun I'll give your nonsense some credence.




Ah Kevin, sometimes your good and sometimes your bad.  On the first question you don't need to be an expert to tell the difference between a angle shot vs a straight shot.  The best evidence and proof is the coroner's report and that report is official on record.  

On the second one: The gun Chapman had that is in the police's possession, if it was used>>>> by diggity dog and holy moses YES YES YES AND YES anyone would have heard that gun go off even the desk clerk and jesus himself outside!!!!!!!  Not once, not twice not three times not just four times but practically emptied out.  

Also Kevin>  JOHN LENNON HAD 4 SLUGS THAT HIT HIM SQUARELY ON THE LEFT SIDE AND EXIT ON THE FRONT NEAR HIS HEART!!!!!!.  If so then ask yourself again why did not the desk clerk hear at least 4 shots.  He said he did not hear any shots.  go figure.  It was night time Kevin and even a 38 caliber makes a whopping loud sound when fired.

You would have to be totally stoned deaf to not have heard that gun at all.  The one that Chapman had was a normal made gun that a person can buy at a gun shop.

To fit a silencer on that weapon, you have to machine it and its not that easy.  If a person in America gets caught with a gun having a silencer capability you go down 5 years.  If you get caught and have a silencer that goes with that gun its 10 years!!!!!  The police and a lot of people don't like it because you can kill without anyone knowing you did the shooting!!!

There are two kinds of silencers.  One is the dry type and the other is the wet type.  Special forces use this a lot and so do assassins.  The wet is used when there is a lot of water around. They have it for pistols and for rifles and also for sub machine guns like a Uzi for example.  Also there are two styles of silencers itself.  One is a screwed on type and the other is a twist lock type.  The best one is the screw on type.  Twist lock type is good and its fast and convienent for quick action.

Anyone who has silencers never expose themselves.  They keep quiet.  If a ordinary person has it its used for self defense.  Why disturb your next door neighbor?  

  
« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 05:24:41 PM by Daveyo »
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