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Beatles forums => The Beatles => Topic started by: Bobber on June 07, 2006, 07:49:32 AM

Title: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bobber on June 07, 2006, 07:49:32 AM
I was discussing this little thing in the bootlegforums already, but since not everybody's coming there (a shame, really...), I thought I'd bring it out in the open. The thing is, I was listening to The Beatles home recordings the other day and there were the tapes from Paul McCartney's bedroom (or bathroom, whatever), from April and/or even May 1960. The quality of these recording are pretty bad of course, but in fact, so is the band. Playing these endless instrumental things and other low quality stuff. Still, just three months later, Allan Williams -who might have had a lot to lose at that time, being some kind of agent with connections in Hamburg- decided that they were good enough to go to Hamburg. Rory Storm wasn't available, but other bands were. And he sent The Beatles, who, three months earlier, sounded pretty lousy to my ears. Of course, in Hamburg they had to play long shifts and must have had its results. By the end of the year, back in Liverpool, they were the hottest band in town. But what happened during those summer months, what made them better, in fact so good to send them to Hamburg? All in all, I think 1960 was a very important year in terms of their development. Again, by the end of 1960 they were Liverpools greatest band. Unbelievable when you listen to they tapes from April/May. What are your thoughts on this?
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bobber on June 07, 2006, 08:04:15 AM
We were at our best when we were playing in the dance halls of Liverpool and Hamburg.  The world never saw that.
- John Lennon
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Kevin on June 07, 2006, 10:02:57 AM
^Now that's what I call a topic. What does Mr W say in his book? (my copy is in a box on the other side of the planet).
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bobber on June 07, 2006, 10:46:26 AM
Allan Williams describes that he wanted to give The Beatles a chance, even though they were still looking for a drummer. A couple of days before they leave for Hamburg in August 1960, he is watching the band and Gerry and the Pacemakers somewhere in the neighbourhood, together with Bob Wooler. Gerry has a smooth and perfect show, but The Beatles seem to electrocute the audience, even when they're off stage.
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: The End on June 07, 2006, 11:15:55 AM
Wasn't it Derry (of Derry and The Seniors) who said to Allan Williams "don't send that bum group or you'll spoil it for all of us"?!
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bobber on June 07, 2006, 11:25:43 AM
Quote from: The_End
Wasn't it Derry (of Derry and The Seniors) who said to Allan Williams "don't send that bum group or you'll spoil it for all of us"?!

True. It could've been Howie Casey, who was in Derry's group by then. He played in Wings in the seventies, playing saxophone or trumpet during the Wings Over America tour for instance.
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: on June 07, 2006, 10:05:47 PM
They had a certain spark, and that's all there is to it.
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: pc31 on June 08, 2006, 10:44:08 AM
Quote from: Bobber

True. It could've been Howie Casey, who was in Derry's group by then. He played in Wings in the seventies, playing saxophone or trumpet during the Wings Over America tour for instance.
he played the sax on listen to what the mansays.....i agree cor...they did suck but they got better...and better....
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bobber on June 09, 2006, 08:11:17 AM
Quote from: pc31
they did suck but they got better...and better....

What strikes me most is the speed with which that happened. According to Mark Lewisohn they were absolutely the greatest on the Merseyside by the end of 1960. Sure, Hamburg must have made them better and better during the fall of 1960. But then again, they only had a drummer since August. Somehow they made a tremendous development in a couple of months... So yeah, 1960 is without a doubt the most important year in the development of their sound.
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: The End on June 09, 2006, 11:33:34 AM
It's weird that the Decca auditions don't really do anything to showcase this talent - in my opinion anyway!

George seemed to have the best voice that day - John's kept going missing (Money) and Paul seemed to be taking on the role of a 50's crooner (Like Dreamers Do).

George had a pretty good share of the lead vocal duties that day as well!
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bobber on June 09, 2006, 11:44:59 AM
That's true. Although it's a year later, they hardly sound energetic at all. A bit tame. Of course, New Years Day is a day when probably nobody is good, but I can hardly hear that they fully aware of the big chance they had on their hands with this audition. They did not know what we know now. I can't blame Decca for putting them down on this audition. Mike Smith from Decca, who had been in The Cavern (or another venue up north), knew the immense popularity of The Beatles on the Merseyside, but obviously Decca had no idea about that or neglected it. They must have been bloody nervous for the Decca audition and though they play everything alright, it certainly lacks some passion.
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Loco Mo on June 17, 2006, 09:05:02 PM
This sudden development of the Beatles seems to parallel their later sudden development at the time of Revolver and Sgt. Pepper.  I often heard people asking how they came so far in such a short period of time.  So much about the Beatles is absolutely mystifying.  They were a phenomenon which seems to defy the usual analytic purview.
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bobber on June 19, 2006, 08:56:12 AM
^That's true. On the other hand, one can see a development that started with Rubber Soul and we know the sources: people and writers like Bob Dylan that got the Beatles wanted to write more in depth songs. But they were on a riding train by that time while in 1960, in fact, that had to get the train running for a start. And once a train is running, it's probably easier to keep it going. They might have learned a lot in the long forgotten tour of Scotland in May 1960, with Johnny Gentle. They really might have got the idea of how to run a show and how to get to girls crazy, although they were just a backing group at that time.
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bobber on July 10, 2006, 09:02:45 AM
 
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Chazz Avery on July 24, 2006, 04:42:05 PM
I think these recordings illustrate how quickly The Beatles' playing improved that year.

Most of the rambling instrumentals come from April on the "Astrid Kirchherr tape" (http://www.beatlesource.com/savage/1960/60.04.XX%20forthlin/60.04.XXforthlin.html) and, indeed, are pretty bad. However, they sound more like exercises than actual attempts to play concise songs. Because Stu's playing is SO bad, I often wonder if this wasn't recorded earlier than April.

In May they went on the Johnny Gentle Tour (http://www.beatlesource.com/savage/1960/60.05.20%20johnny%20gentle/60.05.20johnnygentle.html). This seems to have honed their abilities a bit which is evident on the more concise songs heard on the "Hans Walter-Braun tape" (http://www.beatlesource.com/savage/1960/60.06-07%20forthlin/60.06-07forthlin.html) from July 1960. Sure, Stu's still plodding along but John, Paul and George have tightened up considerably.

And, within a year, they would record an album with Tony Sheridan. Not a bad pace.
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bobber on July 25, 2006, 07:38:58 AM
It's funny how you make such a time difference between the Kirchherr and Braun tapes. The quality of what you call the Kirchherr is indeed that bad that it made me wondering how they could improve so much within a year. Dating the tapes earlier than April 1960 would make it a bit more understandable, for then there's more time available. Stu really sounds like he's looking for the right notes to play, so yeah, it could in fact be a very early recording, when Stu had just joined the band.
Oh, by the way Chazz, did you get my picture of the Johnny Gentle Tour through Scotland, with someone else other than a Beatle in the background?
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Chazz Avery on July 25, 2006, 10:57:36 AM
Quote from: Bobber
It's funny how you make such a time difference between the Kirchherr and Braun tapes.

 
That is based primarily on info presented by John Winn and examined with my own ears. There is difference in ambience and the guitars are louder which is like the result of Paul's ne Rosetti 7 guitar purchased on June 30. While researching the "Savage" era it seemed evident that this fita the timeframe.

Quote from: Bobber
The quality of what you call the Kirchherr [tape]...


The "Astrid Kirchherr tape" (http://www.beatlesource.com/savage/1960/60.04.XX%20forthlin/60.04.XXforthlin.html) was a tape given by Stu to Astrid and, obviously, was at least a second generation compilation copy. Astrid returned the tape to George in 1994.

At some point (probably 1960-61), another second generation compilation tape copy containing more polished tracks was given to The Beatles' German friend, Hans-Walter "Icke" Braun (http://www.beatlesource.com/savage/1960/60.06-07%20forthlin/60.06-07forthlin.html).

Sometime in the 1960s, German musician Frank Dostal obtained probably third generation copies of both the Kirchherr and Braun tapes. He played an unadulterated excerpt of the Braun tape on German TV in 1967. In the 1970s, he had a studio combine both tapes onto a single, fourth generation reel.

At that point, the recordings were processed with EQ and the reverb which is probably what we hear on the recordings today.

Frank Dostal has confirmed to me that it is indeed his compilation which circulates but expressly stated that it was NOT him who circulated it.

There appears to be two copies of the Dostal which are circulating. One copy (commonly found on "Wildcat") is slightly better quality than the other (selections of which are found on "The Braun-Kirchherr Tapes"). Both seem to have slight differences in the intro and outro edits. And the second copy features a complete "Well Darling".

Strangely, four songs found on the Braun tape also circulate from what appears to be a different lower generation lineage then the Dostal tape. This copy is better quality with less reverb.

The original recorder used to make these recordings belonged to Charles Hodgson. In 1994, his brother Reginold found a reel given to Charles by Paul in 1960 when the recorder was returned. This reel features a compilation from both the Kirchherr and Braun tapes as well as additional (and currently unavailable) songs including "When I'm 64", "Ask Me Why" and "Winston's Walk". This was probably a second generation copy taken from the master tapes and not copied from the Kirchherr-Braun tapes. Hodgson returned the tape to Paul in 1994. Perhaps the four songs noted above source back to the Hodgson tape.

Also, according to reports, in 1969, John gave a copy of these recordings to a German friend to have an acetate made. The acetate, containing three songs, never made it back to John. Perhaps the four songs can be traced to this event.

It would seem that the tracks found on "Anthology 1" would be sourced from the Kirchherr and Hodgson tapes however, the "Anthology" versions also feature the reverb found on the bootlegs.

Quote from: Bobber
...is indeed that bad that it made me wondering how they could improve so much within a year. Dating the tapes earlier than April 1960 would make it a bit more understandable, for then there's more time available. Stu really sounds like he's looking for the right notes to play, so yeah, it could in fact be a very early recording, when Stu had just joined the band.


I'm VERY inclined to think it's earlier than April. But it's no earlier than January, when Stu joined

Quote from: Bobber
Oh, by the way Chazz, did you get my picture of the Johnny Gentle Tour through Scotland, with someone else other than a Beatle in the background?


Yep, I sure did but I jsut looked and I'll be darned if I can find it. I thought I archived it but it's not where I thought it was. And I didn't get to examine it closely. Sometimes I stick things in odd places. Hopefully, I'll come across it at sometime. I have contact with Johnny Gentle's son and wanted to ask him about it.

Chazz
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bobber on July 25, 2006, 11:05:34 AM
This is the picture:

(http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/1633/johnnygentlebn6.jpg), to be found on Johnny Gentle's website: http://www.johnnygentle.com. It says 'Scotland Tour', but it does not look like any of the Beatles in the background there. I'm not sure if Johnny did another Scotland tour after the one in May 1960.
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Kevin on July 25, 2006, 11:21:46 AM
I so wish I could contribute to this.
Am I right in that crucial question is why did Williams send what everyone else thought was a sh*t band to Hamburg? (for surely the regular gigging is a key component to their improvement)
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bobber on July 25, 2006, 03:11:59 PM
Quote from: kevin_b
I so wish I could contribute to this.
Am I right in that crucial question is why did Williams send what everyone else thought was a sh*t band to Hamburg? (for surely the regular gigging is a key component to their improvement)

Well, in fact that's the question. And judging from what I thought was their tapes from April/May 1960, it was quite a lousy band. Their first gigs in Hamburg might have been pretty bad too, though. But still Alan Williams they were good enough to go and play in Hamburg.
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Kevin on July 25, 2006, 03:16:10 PM
I haven't read his book in decades, but didn't Mr W have a hand in many pies - strippers, steel bands, rock bands? Probably would have sent his gran if he it could make him a buck?
Did he pass other bands over to send The B's, or were they all he had left?
(I used to know this once)
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bobber on July 25, 2006, 04:59:21 PM
Derry and the Seniors were the first to go to Hamburg and then Bruno Koschmider asked for another band. Williams asked Rory Storm, but he and his band were busy doing the Butlins summercamp. Gerry and The Pacemakers were asked, but they didn't dare to go I think. So then came the Beatles. It's true that Allan Williams was quite a 'trader', but on the other hand, in this particular case, I think he was well aware of the business that could come out of Hamburg. The Beatles might have been his last choice however.
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bobber on September 04, 2006, 09:19:12 AM
Just an excerpt from an interview with Roy Young, as found on the Tony Sheridan World Wide Forum...: http://com3.runboard.com/bthetonysheridanforum


TONY COPPLE: In Allan Williams biography, the Beatles first manager makes the following statement: "The Beatles would go to the Top Ten Club...to watch Tony Sheridan, that great singer-guitarist, at work...He was more or less their idol in those days and they admit to hearing a lot from his style and technique." How accurate is Williams statement? Did they learn a lot too, from Tony Sheridan?

ROY YOUNG: Absolutely! I was always bewildered by the fact that they never made a big thing about that because I know John and George -- you'd always see them there in the front watching Tony's every move, you know. They'd copied him. They really did copy a lot of his moves: styling; the way of play(ing); you know, the stand; and especially John stood just like Tony. And yet I've never heard too much of them ever mentioning much of it before they died, you know, which quite amazed me, you know.

TONY COPPLE: Yeah. Let's talk about Tony Sheridan's stage presence specifically. Is it true that when Tony was on stage performing, he had his legs spread apart and held his guitar like a Tommy-Gun as he sang? You know, the Lennon style... because it's -

ROY YOUNG: (Roy interrupts and says with fondness): No! That's the Sheridan style! Yeah! Oh, yeah.

TONY COPPLE: ...it is reported that John Lennon began incorporating the Tommy-Gun stance when he returned to Liverpool from Hamburg, something he didn't do before in previous shows.

ROY YOUNG: Right, right...that's true.
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Kevin on September 04, 2006, 02:04:52 PM
You're doing good work here Bobber. I wish I knew more about this period so I could contribute.
Everything I've ever read (and its not nearly as much as you guys) has had TS merely as a footnote. And people say you can't rewrite history.
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bobber on September 04, 2006, 02:48:38 PM
Quote from: 185
You're doing good work here Bobber. I wish I knew more about this period so I could contribute.
Everything I've ever read (and its not nearly as much as you guys) has had TS merely as a footnote. And people say you can't rewrite history.

Thanks. I feel it's a shame Tony is only a footnote. It's undeniable imo that his influence on the early Beatles was big.
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: The End on September 05, 2006, 12:02:23 PM
I've seen a few pics of Tony Sheridan playing guitar and standing in a fairly similar way to the famous Lennon stance. But nothing I've seen pictorially is conclusive (for me anyway).

But I do not doubt that he was a huge influence on the early Beatle sound and their musicianship because he really was (and still is) an excellent guitarist.
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bobber on September 05, 2006, 12:05:15 PM
Agreed. We will never know what and even if The Beatles copied things like that. And even if they did, did they do it on purpose?
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bobber on March 16, 2007, 09:25:45 PM
I thought this great thread deserved a bump...
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: BlueMeanie on March 17, 2007, 09:19:52 AM
Quote from: 63
I thought this great thread deserved a bump...

Good call. I'm going to read up more on this period. I always thought TS was an 'also ran'.
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: pc31 on March 17, 2007, 10:59:54 AM
Quote from: 63
This is the picture:

([url]http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/1633/johnnygentlebn6.jpg[/url]), to be found on Johnny Gentle's website: [url]http://www.johnnygentle.com[/url]. It says 'Scotland Tour', but it does not look like any of the Beatles in the background there. I'm not sure if Johnny did another Scotland tour after the one in May 1960.
that is me in the picture with my head cut off....from a previous life....i remember johnny saying if you die now you can be reborne.... :P

Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Kevin on March 17, 2007, 11:08:50 AM
That girl's doing a happy little number on his finger. Pain or promise?
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: alexis on June 13, 2007, 01:42:27 PM
I agree, Bobber ... though it has been ages since I've listened to the songs from " ... Spring 1960", I do remember thinking they were quite raw - so how in the world did they get good enough in a few months to even be considered to go to Hamburg?

I'm pretty sure the answer is the one that John has said all along - a man came from outer space in a flaming pie and gave them all magical powers (except for Stu). The rest is history!

I would love to know more about that Scotland tour ...

GREAT THREAD!

P.S. pc31 ... is that really you in the pic? If so, you are instantly elevated to demigod status, at least. Can you get Tony Sheridan to comment on this forum? Or how about ... Sir Paul?!!!
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bobber on June 13, 2007, 01:48:02 PM
Quote from: 568
P.S. pc31 ... is that really you in the pic? If so, you are instantly elevated to demigod status, at least. Can you get Tony Sheridan to comment on this forum? Or how about ... Sir Paul?!!!

You mean pc's avatar? He'd wish! It's John Lennon!

I might be talking to Tony Sheridan in September actually. Anything you'd like to know? Oh, and I'll do some digging on the Scotland tour.
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: alexis on June 13, 2007, 02:01:37 PM
Quote from: 63

You mean pc's avatar? He'd wish! It's John Lennon!

Actually, see pc31's post # 29 of this thread ... he is on stage with Tony Sheridan!

Quote from: 63
I might be talking to Tony Sheridan in September actually. Anything you'd like to know? Oh, and I'll do some digging on the Scotland tour.  


Well, in thinking about what I'd ask you to talk to him about, I see that if I actually met any of the Beatles, I would be struck completely mute. Even now, wondering what I'd ask you to ask Tony Sheridan about, I can't form a coherent thought!! I suppose I might ask ... was Paul the MUSICAL band leader then, acknowledging that John was clearly the alpha guy. The reason I'm wondering is that over the past few years, as I've seen and heard more of their early live shows, I've been wondering more and more whether it was actually Paul that ran the stage show - doing the countdown for example (even in the most important gig of their lives at the time, the Ed Sullivan show, as well as many others), making eye contact with Ringo and George to cue them in when they had their special bits in songs. From the footage I've seen, it's rare that John did much of that, except to look at Paul now and then.

Or maybe I'd ask about Bettina from the Cavern Club album ... was that John's German waitress/bartender girlfriend? Was Paul making a play for her from the stage?


And if you're TALKING to Tony Sheridan ... I'm mute with awe! And ... can you get Paul to listen to my songs? :-)
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bobber on June 13, 2007, 02:28:07 PM
Quote from: 568

Actually, see pc31's post # 29 of this thread ... he is on stage with Tony Sheridan!
Ah, I see! I missed that!

Quote from: 568
Well, in thinking about what I'd ask you to talk to him about, I see that if I actually met any of the Beatles, I would be struck completely mute. Even now, wondering what I'd ask you to ask Tony Sheridan about, I can't form a coherent thought!! I suppose I might ask ... was Paul the MUSICAL band leader then, acknowledging that John was clearly the alpha guy. The reason I'm wondering is that over the past few years, as I've seen and heard more of their early live shows, I've been wondering more and more whether it was actually Paul that ran the stage show - doing the countdown for example (even in the most important gig of their lives at the time, the Ed Sullivan show, as well as many others), making eye contact with Ringo and George to cue them in when they had their special bits in songs. From the footage I've seen, it's rare that John did much of that, except to look at Paul now and then.

Or maybe I'd ask about Bettina from the Cavern Club album ... was that John's German waitress/bartender girlfriend? Was Paul making a play for her from the stage?


And if you're TALKING to Tony Sheridan ... I'm mute with awe! And ... can you get Paul to listen to my songs? :-)

It's not unusual that the bassplayer is in some way the musical leader in the band. In fact, it's the guy who is getting the rhythm section (drums/bass) together with the other instruments. It's not unusual either that bassplayers are good producers: they have good ears and can put things together and in line. So yeah, Paul could very well have been some kind of leader on stage.
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: alexis on June 13, 2007, 04:03:23 PM
Quote from: 63
Ah, I see! I missed that!



It's not unusual that the bassplayer is in some way the musical leader in the band. In fact, it's the guy who is getting the rhythm section (drums/bass) together with the other instruments. It's not unusual either that bassplayers are good producers: they have good ears and can put things together and in line. So yeah, Paul could very well have been some kind of leader on stage.


(In best John voice) ... "What about my songs, then?"
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: alexis on June 13, 2007, 09:02:53 PM
Quote from: 35
I think these recordings illustrate how quickly The Beatles' playing improved that year.

Most of the rambling instrumentals come from April on the "Astrid Kirchherr tape" ([url]http://www.beatlesource.com/savage/1960/60.04.XX%20forthlin/60.04.XXforthlin.html[/url]) and, indeed, are pretty bad. However, they sound more like exercises than actual attempts to play concise songs. Because Stu's playing is SO bad, I often wonder if this wasn't recorded earlier than April.

In May they went on the Johnny Gentle Tour ([url]http://www.beatlesource.com/savage/1960/60.05.20%20johnny%20gentle/60.05.20johnnygentle.html[/url]). This seems to have honed their abilities a bit which is evident on the more concise songs heard on the "Hans Walter-Braun tape" ([url]http://www.beatlesource.com/savage/1960/60.06-07%20forthlin/60.06-07forthlin.html[/url]) from July 1960. Sure, Stu's still plodding along but John, Paul and George have tightened up considerably.

And, within a year, they would record an album with Tony Sheridan. Not a bad pace.


(Well, while waiting for Paul to call me about my songs ...)

Back on topic - yes it was an incredible pace. I had never thought much about it, but I believe you and Bobber are spot on ... this was a magical year for them.

Does anyone know much about the Johnny Gentle tour? I've read that bit in last Christmas' book (John dragging an injured drummer (car wreck) out of hospital to make him play so they didn't miss a gig ... it's like he knew destiny demanded they didn't slow down!), but I haven't heard much about what happened musically.

I wonder if Paul has a site to ask him questions. I bet he hasn't been asked that one too often!

Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: zipp on June 14, 2007, 10:00:05 AM
I've recently seen a DVD with an interview with Tony Sheridan.He's an extremely articulate guy and I'm sure he had an immense influence.
Wasn't he on the TV show 65Special that the Beatles watched religiously?
Didn't he have a problem being on time?
Maybe you can ask him about that.
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: alexis on June 14, 2007, 01:27:06 PM
Quote from: 410
I've recently seen a DVD with an interview with Tony Sheridan.He's an extremely articulate guy and I'm sure he had an immense influence.
Wasn't he on the TV show 65Special that the Beatles watched religiously?
Didn't he have a problem being on time?
Maybe you can ask him about that.


Hi Zipp -

Maybe I will!

Comparing them, I see that you have the British label at the top of the photo and I've got the American. Comparing further, does it look like your's is closer up than mine? I'm jealous!

Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: BlueMeanie on June 14, 2007, 01:42:52 PM
Quote from: 568

Comparing them, I see that you have the British label at the top of the photo and I've got the American. Comparing further, does it look like your's is closer up than mine? I'm jealous!

From memory I think the image on the American Meet The Beatles was slightly smaller than the UK With The Beatles. It's also slightly more contrasty because I believe Capitol reproduced the cover by actually photographing a WTB cover. Someone may correct me on this!
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bobber on November 02, 2007, 02:34:48 PM
I noticed Googlebot was very interested in this thread. Rightly so!
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Ligger on February 07, 2008, 07:59:56 AM
I am honestly starting to think that 1961 was a much more crucial year for the boys.

Have you studied those Top Ten Club photographs?

Paul can be seen: with the crappy Rosetti Solid 7, at the upright piano, instrument-less at the microphone and with his newly purchased Hoffner.

What about the shots with two bass players on stage at the same time. Or Stu and George in that moody lighting. Stu is sitting and wearing some weird sandalsl

Stu quits. They do the session with Bert and Tony.

And when they get back to Liverpool as a four piece after that second Hamburg stint. Look out world.

With Paul's new guitar and all that black leather. A solid year's worth of playing with a very fine drummer. That would have been the time to catch one of their club dates. 1961

Let's not forget regular Wednesday nights at the Cavern starting in July.
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: BlueMeanie on February 07, 2008, 10:50:54 AM
Quote from: 1122
A solid year's worth of playing with a very fine drummer. That would have been the time to catch one of their club dates. 1961

? Competent, but I wouldn't call Pete a very fine drummer.
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: slick rick on February 08, 2008, 11:49:59 AM
then you saw him preform back then?and the other drummers were better??ringo was no major at the time either....i fear that pete just gets a bad rep because he never stood up against what everyone was saying....so naturally he becomes the villian....
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: BlueMeanie on February 08, 2008, 11:59:19 AM
Quote from: 336
then you saw him preform back then?and the other drummers were better??ringo was no major at the time either....i fear that pete just gets a bad rep because he never stood up against what everyone was saying....so naturally he becomes the villian....

I don't think of him like that. And no, I haven't seen him perform, but I've heard enough of him and Ringo, from that period to think that Ringo is superior. How is Pete the villain?
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Ligger on February 09, 2008, 07:55:48 AM
1960 Liverpool

I wish I could have seen one of their shows at the Grosvenor Ballroom in Liscard, Wallasey, in the Wirral.

Here is a photo of the venue: (http://www.msdance.fsnet.co.uk/Dscf0026a.JPG)

You can see how intimate the room is. Notice also how low the stage is. I visited the Grosvenor once and just walked inside. It was empty and ghostly quiet. I drank in the history of the tiny room and congratulated myself on my good fortune.

This was about twenty years ago, before the rebirth of Liverpool's Beatles tourism industry. I believe only die hard Japanese fans were aware of the place at that time. It was a bit off the beaten path, since I had to get there by public transportation. I took the ferry and then a bus.

Highly recommended if you happen visit Liverpool.

I can't wait for Mersey Beat Village to open.
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bill Harry on February 09, 2008, 09:51:45 AM
What is this about a 'Mersey Beat Village' I have been trying to get a Mersey Beat Village established since 1995?
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Ligger on February 09, 2008, 10:58:13 AM
I read about it on your website, Bill.

It is such an amazing idea. If only I had some wealth and influence.
I would invest in that project without hesitation.  

How could it possibly not be a phenomenal success?

All the best of luck with it. Any updates or progress reports?
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Ligger on February 27, 2008, 02:49:14 AM
I was just listening to Cry for a Shadow.

That song really swings. It's sounds like they are having so much fun. It's got to be more than just a parody of the Shadows' May, 1961 hit, The Frightened City.

Someone should start a The Summer of 1961 thread.
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: alexis on February 27, 2008, 05:41:27 AM
Quote from: 284
that is me in the picture with my head cut off....from a previous life....i remember johnny saying if you die now you can be reborne.... :P


I'm just reading this old thread ...

pc31, are you saying you were there on the Johnny Gentle tour?!
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bobber on February 27, 2008, 08:30:34 AM
Quote from: 568

I'm just reading this old thread ...

pc31, are you saying you were there on the Johnny Gentle tour?!


They were indeed, in May 1960. Check on Chazz Avery's site: http://www.beatlesource.com/savage/1960/60.05.20%20johnny%20gentle/60.05.20johnnygentle.html
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: harihead on February 27, 2008, 02:17:24 PM
Quote from: 1122
I was just listening to Cry for a Shadow. ... It's sounds like they are having so much fun. It's got to be more than just a parody of the Shadows' May, 1961 hit, The Frightened City.
I agree, and I think this is a big part of why the Beatles took off. They were having fun, and goofing around, and being irreverent. That still comes across to the audience today, which is why I think they're still picking up new fans. There are only so many brooding cheesecake shots of some performer I can take before I'm bored out of my skull.

Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: alexis on February 27, 2008, 04:07:08 PM
Quote from: 551
I agree, and I think this is a big part of why the Beatles took off. They were having fun, and goofing around, and being irreverent. That still comes across to the audience today, which is why I think they're still picking up new fans. There are only so many brooding cheesecake shots of some performer I can take before I'm bored out of my skull.


That's one reason I seem to be drawn to the early Beatles more in many ways - they seemed less than happy in the mid- to later days. Even in the rare shots where they are smiling and laughing, it's even more rare when their "eyes are happy" as well, at least that's how it seems to me.
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bobber on April 04, 2008, 07:22:07 AM
Do you guys and girls think that the arrival of a steady (tho limited) drummer could have played a role in improving so much and getting to sound tidier?
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Kevin on April 04, 2008, 08:52:09 AM
Quote from: 63
Do you guys and girls think that the arrival of a steady (tho limited) drummer could have played a role in improving so much and getting to sound tidier?

With my limited knowledge I would say that a tight rhythm section isn't that important for a live band. It's in the studio that sloppy drummers/bass players get found out, and why a lot get dumped when recording starts. Bruce Springsteen's E Street Band is a good example. An excellent live band who couldn't understand why they couldn't transplant their sound on to vinyl. The drummer was sacked and all was well. Like Pete Best he was a good mate of the band and was dumped at the producer's insistance. But he seemed to have been no impediment to their success as a live act.
I'm not saying you can get by with a crap drummer, or that a good drummer doesn't help, but I don't think it's any kind of vital ingrediant.
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bill Harry on April 04, 2008, 09:15:09 AM
Howie Casey & the Seniors were the first Liverpol band to go to Hamburg. When Bruno Koschmider requested another Liverpool band Alan asked Rory Storm & the Hurricanes, but they'd been booked for Butlins. Then he turned to Gerry & the Pacemakers and they wouldn't go because Gerry wouldn't turn professional. Almost in desperation, he decided to send the Beatles. When Howie Casey heard about it he wrote to Alan saying that if they sent such a lousy band along, then it would ruin it for the rest of the groups. When the Beatles arrived they were sent to a seedy little former strip club the Indra, further along the Grosse Freiheit. At the Kaiserkeller, the Seniors were raving it up, particularly with superb showman Derry Wilkie. Koschmider told the Beatles to 'mach shau' like Derry. When he put them on the Kaiserkeller, he made the groups juggle about to form a third outfit instead of using the jukebox between breaks. He got Stuart Sutcliffe to play with Howie. Howie would never accept a bad musician, so Stuart must have been okay. Ricky Richards, who was there with the Jets, said Stuart was good and mesmerising on stage, one of his songs was the highlight of the act. Ricky, who died a couple of years ago, said that you can get away with a bad lead or rhythm guitarist - but not a bass, a bass sound is so important that a bad bass player would ruin the sound. This was the period when the Beatles had their 'baptism of fire' and when Pete Best developed the 'atom beat.'
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: alexis on April 04, 2008, 11:26:57 AM
Hi Bill -

Do you think there is any old footage or sound of Howie and the Seniors playing?
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bill Harry on April 04, 2008, 12:10:05 PM
I don't think so, but I'll ask Howie. In the meantime, if you would like to know more about howie, here's what I've written, although it's quite long:

CASEY, HOWIE. A Liverpool musician who had learned to play sax while in the army. He formed Derry & the Seniors in November 1959. The line-up comprised Howie (saxophone), Derry Wilkie (vocals), Jeff Wallington (drums), Billy Hughes (rhythm/vocals). Brian Griffiths (lead) and Phil Whitehead (bass).
     They appeared regularly around Merseyside at venues such as Blair Hall, Wilson Hall and the Jacaranda. Because of the Jacaranda connection, clubowner Allan Williams booked them for the Liverpool Stadium Show with Gene Vincent on Tuesday 3 May 1960.
     Williams had staged the event with London impresario Larry Parnes and the bill featured a number of Liverpool groups. Parnes was impressed and asked Williams to arrange an audition as he was seeking bands to back his various artists, such as Billy Fury, Johnny Gentle and Duffy Power.
     The Silver Beetles were also present at the audition, which took place on Tuesday 10 May at the Wyvern Social Club in Seel Street. When Casey was later asked what he thought of them, he said:
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: alexis on April 04, 2008, 07:06:35 PM
Quote from: 568
Hi Bill -

Do you think there is any old footage or sound of Howie and the Seniors playing?


Very cool! What is Howie doing nowadays? We'd love a sax player in my group in San Antonio!
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: alexis on April 04, 2008, 07:08:44 PM
Quote from: 1062
I don't think so, but I'll ask Howie. In the meantime, if you would like to know more about howie, here's what I've written, although it's quite long:

CASEY, HOWIE. A Liverpool musician who had learned to play sax while in the army. He formed Derry & the Seniors in November 1959. The line-up comprised Howie (saxophone), Derry Wilkie (vocals), Jeff Wallington (drums), Billy Hughes (rhythm/vocals). Brian Griffiths (lead) and Phil Whitehead (bass).
     They appeared regularly around Merseyside at venues such as Blair Hall, Wilson Hall and the Jacaranda. Because of the Jacaranda connection, clubowner Allan Williams booked them for the Liverpool Stadium Show with Gene Vincent on Tuesday 3 May 1960.
     Williams had staged the event with London impresario Larry Parnes and the bill featured a number of Liverpool groups. Parnes was impressed and asked Williams to arrange an audition as he was seeking bands to back his various artists, such as Billy Fury, Johnny Gentle and Duffy Power.
     The Silver Beetles were also present at the audition, which took place on Tuesday 10 May at the Wyvern Social Club in Seel Street. When Casey was later asked what he thought of them, he said:
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bill Harry on April 05, 2008, 07:28:45 AM
Howie and his wife live in Bournemouth. She is one of the McKinley Sisters who toured with the Beatles. Howie still performs live shows and occassionally has his own band. Derry Wilkie died a few years ago.
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: pc31 on April 05, 2008, 02:08:27 PM
long time no read sir bill...how have you been?
see you at the site later i hope...you still have not been frequenting your chat...pm a time so we can meet up...
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: pc31 on April 05, 2008, 02:17:36 PM
i have been busy myself trying to restore this
(http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/8804/revamptp2.png)
it is a 1962 ford falcon 2 door sedan...after coffee and a hooter i am going to go sand the paint off the doors...the motor runs and it will drive but i need some tires first...the old ones go flat...well 2 do..do you drive still?
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: pc31 on April 05, 2008, 02:27:47 PM
i am in the chatroom bill,have you any time? the link... http://www.triumphpc.com/cgi-bin/livechat/chat.cgi
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bill Harry on April 05, 2008, 06:42:45 PM
The reason i wasn't around for a couple of weeks is because Virginia and I went to Mauritius. At the moment I don't think the Mersey Beat chat rooms works. I'll check up on it.
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bobber on December 08, 2009, 12:44:13 PM
I started reading Eric Krasker's promising book last night. Eager to find out more about this subject.
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Xose on April 15, 2010, 10:43:43 PM

That is based primarily on info presented by John Winn and examined with my own ears. There is difference in ambience and the guitars are louder which is like the result of Paul's ne Rosetti 7 guitar purchased on June 30...


...the "Hans Walter-Braun tape" ([url]http://www.beatlesource.com/savage/1960/60.06-07%20forthlin/60.06-07forthlin.html[/url]) from July 1960...


 ???

From July 1960?? Sure??

Xosé
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bobber on April 16, 2010, 06:47:17 AM
Check with Chazz via his site! Chazz is convinced that the tape wasn't made on one day or even in the same week, but that there's a couple of months between them. I'm eager to find out what Richie Unterberger has on this, but I already put his book in a box somewhere. (Moving to another place soon)
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Xose on April 16, 2010, 07:18:05 AM
Chazz' datation is based primarily on John C. Winn, Way Beyond Compare: The Beatles' Recorded Legacy, Volume One, 1957-1965, New York, Three Rivers, 2003, p. 4. The Hans Walter-Braun tape has "...obvious improvement in playing ability [compared to the Forthlin Road April sessions]...and given the louder guitar sound, may have been taped after Paul's June 30 purchase of a Rosetti Solid 7 electric guitar..."

This is MOSTLY interesting. I always thought that those Forthlin Road recordings predate Johnny Gentle tour...

Best,  ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Xose on April 16, 2010, 10:18:19 AM
BTW, Bobber: it's VERY interesting the topic of this thread. Judging by those Forthlin Road recordings in April, the playing level was quite low. Which was THE point of inflexion?? Johnny Gentle tour?? Those gigs at Wirral Península in June-July?? (=including the... two?? gigs at Jacaranda + Janice the stripper)

One of the main problems to begin this research is that we don't know EXACTLY how many gigs, where and when did they perform after ending Johnny Gentle tour and before their first trip to Hamburg. Sources differ at this point.

When did they play as backing group to Janice the stripper?? How many times??

And Jacaranda??

And Grosvenor Ballroom at Liscard, Wallasey?? How many nights did they play there??

Sources anly agree with the six gigs at the Institute in Neston...

Those are the points to start with...

Best!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Griff on April 21, 2010, 04:51:05 PM
May 10th 1960 at the Wyvern social club. This is where we did our auditions for Larry Parnes, who was looking for Liverpool bands to back some of his singers who were going on tour. I was with Derry and the Seniors at the time and was 16 yrs old. Beatles were there minus a drummer -- Johnny Hutch stood in untill Tommy Moore arrived. It was an interesting afternoon, no one had a clue the way things would end up, but as they say the rest is history!

             Griff
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bobber on April 23, 2010, 09:44:48 AM
Any detailed memories of that particular day Griff?
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Xose on June 20, 2010, 11:02:33 AM
Back to this thread..., are those 1960 tapes REALLY 1960?? I mean: who was the first one to say that they are from 1960?? Couldn't be fro different year and put together in a bootleg?? (=for example from 1958 and 1959...) How many of those recordings do include electric guitars?? And bass guitar??

Xosé
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bobber on June 21, 2010, 08:34:27 AM
Well, there is a bass guitar audible and before Stu joined, no one played that instrument. I believe Stuart joined around January 1960.
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Xose on June 21, 2010, 09:58:23 AM
Well, there is a bass guitar audible and before Stu joined, no one played that instrument. I believe Stuart joined around January 1960.

Stuart HP Hessy's receipt is dated 21 January 1960. There is a bass guitar audible but..., are guitar players standards at those tapes those of John, Paul & George by Spring-Summer 1960??

Xosé
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bobber on June 21, 2010, 10:20:52 AM
are guitar players standards at those tapes those of John, Paul & George by Spring-Summer 1960??

Here you go back to my initial question in this thread. Listening to these tapes, it's hard to imagine that just a couple of months later they were good enough to go to Hamburg. So, what happened to the band, musically, that they made such an enormous improvement?
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Xose on June 21, 2010, 10:57:36 AM
Here you go back to my initial question in this thread. Listening to these tapes, it's hard to imagine that just a couple of months later they were good enough to go to Hamburg. So, what happened to the band, musically, that they made such an enormous improvement?

Nothing. IMHO those tapes are wrongly dated. It's another myth...

Xosé
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bobber on June 21, 2010, 11:00:09 AM
 :)

But then, what's your evidence to date these tapes earlier and to back up that it might be Mike McC. drumming? It might even be one of the old Quarrymen. Including the bass guitar.
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Xose on June 21, 2010, 11:27:10 AM
:)

But then, what's your evidence to date these tapes earlier and to back up that it might be Mike McC. drumming? It might even be one of the old Quarrymen. Including the bass guitar.

Probably those tapes date from different eras. What seems clear is that playing standards were not (=at least at some of those recordings) those of Spring 1960. Would Larry Parness have contracted them to bak Johnny Gentle in a proffesional tour with those playing standards?? Would Johnny Gentle speak of their 'wonderful playing' with those playing standards??

Where was stated FOR THE FIRST TIME that those Forthlin Road tapes date Spring 1960??

Xosé
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bobber on June 22, 2010, 09:18:31 AM
I don't know the answer.
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Xose on June 22, 2010, 10:06:14 AM
Well. I think the oldest source so far found is this bootleg LP dated 1988:

(http://www.geocities.jp/thebeatlescometogether/gallery/photograph/quarrymen_at_home.bmp)

Xosé
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bobber on June 22, 2010, 11:01:08 AM
Found this as a comment (taken from the bootleg 'The Braun-Kirchherr Tapes') on bootlegzone

In April 1960 during the school vacation Paul borrowed a neighbour's tape recorder to record the then-called "Beatals" in his family home at No.20 Forthlin Road in Liverpool. In 1961 different tapes from these sessions were given to their friends in Hamburg, Hans Walther Braun and Astrid Kirchherr. In the late 70's Frank Dostal borrowed both original tapes and spliced them together in the Teldec studio on Heussweg is Hamburg. He made three copies, one for Hans Walther Braun, one for Astrid Kirchherr and one for himself.

In April 1988 some tracks of one of these copies were released on the German LP "The Quarrymen At Home". Soon later most of the other tracks were released on a Dutch double LP called "John, Paul, George and Stu - Liverpool May 1960". The final missing vocal track "The World Is Waiting For The Sunrise" finally made it on Belmo's "Happy Christmas" single in 1991. All future CD releases were lifted from these sets which unfortunately were heavily compressed and edited. Even the official "Anthology Vol.1" double CD has the reverb and echo that was added to the tape in 1988! So it's not copied from the source tape but from the vinyl bootleg.

For the first time now you have the chance to listen to the material lifted from the original source tape. To be honest, there are still some little snippets missing but many tracks are one or two seconds longer than on any previous release and one song for the first time ever could be heard in it's entirely: "Well Darling" on all previous releases was shortened from the original 5'06" to about 2'30" or 3'30". Here it is in full length without any fades or edits!

What's left? Beware of the so-called "1969 acetate". It was made in early 1988 by the same guys who originally did "The Quarrymen At Home" LP. Now relax, float downstream and enjoy the Beatals as nature intended!

Manfred Weissleder, February 2002
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Xose on June 22, 2010, 11:17:38 AM
Thank you Bobber!! ;)

That means: a thorough research should have to be done about those historical recordings, as a lot of myth have been placed over them...
Even the supposed to be 'official' Anthology is not the original source!! My God!! ???

Best!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bobber on June 22, 2010, 11:50:03 AM
There are some interesting paragraphs on dating the tapes in Richie Unterbergers 'The Unreleased Beatles'. Have you got the book? If not, I will quote the relevant parts in here.
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Xose on June 22, 2010, 12:35:20 PM
There are some interesting paragraphs on dating the tapes in Richie Unterbergers 'The Unreleased Beatles'. Have you got the book? If not, I will quote the relevant parts in here.

No, I haven't. Could you quote the relevant parts here, please??

Thank you!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bobber on June 22, 2010, 02:44:57 PM
Quote from Richie Unterberger's 'The Unreleased Beatles'

[...]The unpleasantness starts, in fact, with the head-hurting task of trying to get one's head around the mere establishment of when, where and why this stuff was done in the first place. More confusion surrounds the tapes' murky origin than virtually anything else The Beatles recorded. It has been variously theorized that the tapes were recorded at the Art College of Liverpool, where Lennon and Sutcliffe were student at the time; at the Jacaranda club run by their first manager of sorts, Allan Williams; somewhere in Hamburg; or the apartments of John Lennon or Stuart Sutcliffe (who joined the band on bass in early 1960). Estimates for the dates of recording have varied between late 1959 and late 1960. Paul McCartney told Peter Hodgson, who sold him a tape with some of the material in 1995, that it was made in the bathroom of his home (which might at least partially explain the mounds of reverb) during a school vacation in April 1960.
That remains the best guess of date and location, though here's the first place in this volume to note that the Beatles' own memories of such details can't be taken as gospel, not when McCartney was mixing up the order of Rubber Soul and Revolver in a 1999 Mojo magazine interview, to give one example. It's pretty certain that the musicians on these crudities are Lennon, McCartney, Harrison and Sutcliffe. Despite the presence of occasional erratic percussive beats, there's no real drummer involved; according, again, to McCartney, that's Paul's younger brother Mike, who never was an official member of the band. If you were listening to the Beatles for the first time on these tapes, you might assume that Paul was the undisputed leader, as it's his singing that's heard by far the most often.
[...]
Unbelievably, there are few performances here that are even up to the level of the demo disc of 'That'll Be The Day' they'd cut almost two years or so earlier. As Peter Doggett wryly observed in Record Collector, the 1960 tapes, in contrast, "suggested the Beatles were running their carreer in reverse...they offered no hint that by the end of the years their creators would be unquestionably the best rock 'n' roll band on Merseyside."


There's a lot more information about these tapes, but this is the most relevant part about dating the tapes.
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Xose on June 22, 2010, 03:02:36 PM
Quote from Richie Unterberger's 'The Unreleased Beatles'...
...There's a lot more information about these tapes, but this is the most relevant part about dating the tapes.

Excellent, Bobber... Thank you VERY much!! ;)

Is there any info about the different guitars used??

Best!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: zipp on June 23, 2010, 08:00:12 AM
Hi Xose and Bobber,

I've just re-read Unterberger's notes and he doesn't seem to have any detail on the instruments used.

He does say though, especially concerning the date of the instrumentals: "It's even been speculated that these were recorded at an entirely different time and place", but he doesn't say when (except affirming they must come 'from the same era') .

He's certainly no fan of the long instrumentals!
Just read this!

"The tempo lumbers along with the deftness of a waltzing rhinoceros, Sutcliffe plunks-plunks his bass like Charlie Brown attempting to duet with Schroeder, and George's leads are so pinched and hesitant that you can almost see him sweating with frustration as he tries to will his fingers through the paces."  :)
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Xose on June 23, 2010, 08:33:05 AM
Hi zipp,

Thanks for your post!! ;)

So, we are at the same point:

1) Are those Forthlin tapes from Spring 1960?? Probably not because playing standards aren't those who would lead Larry Parness to offer them the Johnny Gentle's tour...

2) If 1) is correct..., who plays the bass heard at some songs?? Judging by playing standards..., perhaps Mike McCartney??

3) If 2) is correct..., whose was that bass??

4) Do we hear electric guitars at those tapes, or perhaps acoustic guitars with pickups??

Xosé
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: An Apple Beatle on June 23, 2010, 10:04:41 AM
Just my tuppence to add. Also bear in mind the young lads trying to record formally onto a tape machine. Many good live bands can struggle to capture that energy and committing to tape was obviously a massive novelty in those days. Perhaps the tape helped them ascertain their strengths and weaknesses very quickly?
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bobber on June 23, 2010, 10:08:35 AM
Plus I think they were trying to catch their own compositions, plus some covers. Just as they did later on. Are these rehearsal tapes or demo tapes?
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bobber on June 23, 2010, 10:38:14 AM
I think we will never know for sure when these recording were made. I can go with Xose's theory that these tapes were recorded before 1960, listening to the quality of play, certainly by George. On the other hand, one can imagine that it really is Stuart Sutcliffe playing the bass. We only have Paul's testimony to date the tapes, plus he confirms that it is Stuart playing, which would place the recordings after January 1960.
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Xose on June 23, 2010, 10:57:50 AM
There are quite a few sources (=some of them written down, some of them by witnesses) who confirm that Stuart's playing wasn't that bad. This story began with Allan William's book in 1975, a source very valuable for one side, but full of myths at the other side.

Lead guitar playing at those tapes are REALLY a beginner's stuff, and I stick to what objective analysis of the available data can confirM. Larry Parness wouldn't want that standard playing for a professional tour laike Johnny Gentle's one. Besides: johnny Gentle himslef praised their playing in his own book. Woul Johnny Gentle praise that Forthlin Road tapes playing?? IMHO, I don't think so...

How many electric guitars -if any- are heard at those tapes??

Regarding Paul's testimony, he is well known for his bad memory, plus some of the recordings could be made AFTER Stu's recruitment. But.., which ones??

Xosé
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Kevin on June 23, 2010, 12:05:22 PM
There are quite a few sources (=some of them written down, some of them by witnesses) who confirm that Stuart's playing wasn't that bad. This story began with Allan William's book in 1975, a source very valuable for one side, but full of myths at the other side.


The End made the same comment many years ago.
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Kevin on June 23, 2010, 12:10:51 PM
doh!
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Xose on June 26, 2010, 04:40:46 PM
The End made the same comment many years ago.

Could you find that thread for me??

Thanks in advance!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bobber on July 06, 2010, 10:13:15 AM
There are quite a few sources (=some of them written down, some of them by witnesses) who confirm that Stuart's playing wasn't that bad. This story began with Allan William's book in 1975, a source very valuable for one side, but full of myths at the other side.

Lead guitar playing at those tapes are REALLY a beginner's stuff, and I stick to what objective analysis of the available data can confirM. Larry Parness wouldn't want that standard playing for a professional tour laike Johnny Gentle's one. Besides: johnny Gentle himslef praised their playing in his own book. Woul Johnny Gentle praise that Forthlin Road tapes playing?? IMHO, I don't think so...

How many electric guitars -if any- are heard at those tapes??

Regarding Paul's testimony, he is well known for his bad memory, plus some of the recordings could be made AFTER Stu's recruitment. But.., which ones??

Xosé

I really have to listen carefully to these recordings again. But it's a tough listen.
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Xose on July 06, 2010, 09:52:28 PM
I really have to listen carefully to these recordings again. But it's a tough listen.

I know. But please: let me know what have you learnt after listenning to them..., ok??

Best!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Bobber on July 07, 2010, 02:39:05 PM
Interesting link here: http://www.dmbeatles.com/forums/index.php?topic=6606.0 (http://www.dmbeatles.com/forums/index.php?topic=6606.0)
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Xose on July 07, 2010, 03:49:19 PM
Interesting link here: [url]http://www.dmbeatles.com/forums/index.php?topic=6606.0[/url] ([url]http://www.dmbeatles.com/forums/index.php?topic=6606.0[/url])


Yes, you are right:VERY interesting. Two points:

1) Judging by the photos, bass guitar player to Gene Vincent used a... Framus Star Bass!! Not an American (=Fender or Gibson) one!! ???

2) The Silver Beatles..., were not good enough for the Gene Vincent Show (=3 May 1960), but they were good enough for the 10 May audition?? ???

Xosé
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: peterbell1 on July 14, 2010, 03:19:04 PM
There are quite a few sources (=some of them written down, some of them by witnesses) who confirm that Stuart's playing wasn't that bad. This story began with Allan William's book in 1975, a source very valuable for one side, but full of myths at the other side.
Xosé


Here's an extract from an interview with Bill Harry which discusses Stu's bass playing and says it wasn't as bad as Allan Williams made out ...
http://www.beatlefolks.com/bharry2.shtml (http://www.beatlefolks.com/bharry2.shtml)
Title: Re: The Summer Of 1960
Post by: Xose on July 14, 2010, 04:55:15 PM
Exactly...

Thank you!! ;)

Xosé