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Title: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: An Apple Beatle on November 23, 2008, 12:43:51 PM
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/vatican-forgives-lennon-for-remark-about-jesus-christ-1031232.html

 By David Randall and Richard Osley
Sunday, 23 November 2008


More than 40 years after John Lennon angered most of the known Christian world with his declaration that the Beatles were more famous than Jesus Christ, he has finally been forgiven. A lengthy editorial in the Vatican's daily newspaper, Osservatore Romano, has said that the statement was a mere "boast" by a young man grappling with the effects of sudden, and extreme fame.

The Pope's representative on paper has thus, albeit 28 years too late for Lennon himself to hear the good news, absolved him. Hopefully, thousands of formerly young and frighteningly pious Americans will now feel some twinge of guilt about burning Beatles records in such numbers when the fuss first broke in 1966.

The belated, but nevertheless welcome, blessing came in the Saturday edition of Osservatore Romano, which has recently had a modernising makeover. In July, it ran a story on another famous rock'n'roller, describing Elvis Presley as a "nice, sensitive young man". Now, in an article marking the 40th anniversary of the Beatles' White Album, the paper commented: "The remark by John Lennon... sounds only like a 'boast' by a young working-class Englishman faced with unexpected success, after growing up in the legend of Elvis and rock and roll."

Osservatore Romano, warming to its theme, concluded by saying: "The fact remains that 38 years after breaking up, the songs of the Lennon-McCartney brand have shown an extraordinary resistance to the passage of time, becoming a source of inspiration for more than one generation of pop musicians."

So there we have it.

The comment was made by Lennon in an interview with Maureen Cleave of the Evening Standard in March 1966. He said: "Christianity will go. It will vanish and shrink. I needn't argue about that. I'm right and I will be proved right. We're more popular than Jesus now. I don't know which will go first – rock'n'roll or Christianity."

The storm over Lennon's quip grew when it was reprinted in an American magazine four months later. In Longview, Texas, there was a public burning of Beatles records. Radio stations across southern US states ran messages encouraging people to destroy their collections, while many banned the group from their playlists.

Even the Ku Klux Klan got in on the act, organising anti-Beatles demonstrations where the band was denounced. When the Beatles toured the US in 1966, there were death threats. There was a similar stiff reaction in South Africa, with Beatles albums banned and, some, destroyed.

Lennon held a press conference in Chicago, but did not withdraw his comments. In 1969, he tried to explain them in an interview with the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. He said: "It's just an expression, meaning the Beatles seem to me to have more influence over youth than Christ. Now I wasn't saying that was a good idea because I'm one of Christ's biggest fans."

Today, it seems, the feeling is at last mutual.
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: An Apple Beatle on November 23, 2008, 12:45:58 PM
Macca can get absolutely anyone in for a plug. lol
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: harihead on November 23, 2008, 07:09:13 PM
Well, I hope the Church succeeds in guilting fans belatedly into rethinking their mob mentality, an achievement it can only accomplish by relying on the continuing presence of mob mentality.

The Catholic Church in particular has been successful in its longevity by periodically giving itself a makeover so it isn't too out-of-step with the masses. So now John Lennon and Elvis are "in". I wish I could see this move with a less cynical eye, but I can't. The tortured voices of too many voters who were being pressured by the Catholic Church to vote a certain way are still fresh in my mind. The Vatican might have done some good if it had spoken up at the time. Trying to claim a little coolness by "forgiving" John Lennon now is just pathetic, in my book.
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: HeyJude18 on November 23, 2008, 07:25:30 PM
ha, now teaach my mom's crazy conserivative side of the family that I'm not a devil child for listening to John!!
And really, it won't change my opinion on the Catholic church
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: Jane on November 23, 2008, 08:06:55 PM
Quote from: 551
Well, I hope the Church succeeds in guilting fans belatedly into rethinking their mob mentality, an achievement it can only accomplish by relying on the continuing presence of mob mentality.

The Catholic Church in particular has been successful in its longevity by periodically giving itself a makeover so it isn't too out-of-step with the masses. So now John Lennon and Elvis are "in". I wish I could see this move with a less cynical eye, but I can't. The tortured voices of too many voters who were being pressured by the Catholic Church to vote a certain way are still fresh in my mind. The Vatican might have done some good if it had spoken up at the time. Trying to claim a little coolness by "forgiving" John Lennon now is just pathetic, in my book.
[/b]

It looks as if the church was unwise at that time. And how can a church be unwise? It contradicts the very idea of a church.
The church should have said these very words then.
And what concerns John`s comment, one has to know John and to understand his character to realise why he said it.
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: Mairi on November 23, 2008, 09:06:56 PM
I think John would be very upset at hearing this news! The last thing he would want would be for the church, the "authority", to praise him.
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: Sondra on November 23, 2008, 09:30:36 PM
I just love that the Vatican is even thinking about Lennon.
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: Bobber on November 23, 2008, 09:32:11 PM
Quote from: 1393
And how can a church be unwise?

My opinion, whatever it is worth to you, is that most churches are unwise.
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: Bobber on November 23, 2008, 09:33:49 PM
Quote from: 216
I just love that the Vatican is even thinking about Lennon.

 :)

Almost 28 years after his death and over 42 years after his remark. Still stirring things up.
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: HeyJude18 on November 23, 2008, 10:51:31 PM
Just think of it this way, I think John would be glad that we're still saying so much about him.  It annoys me that they're trying to seem more approachable.  It just bugs me...
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: DaveRam on November 23, 2008, 11:15:08 PM
I think John's answer would be:

Dear Pope,

It's - Happiness Is A Warm Gun
Not - Happiness Is A Warm Altar Boy

Kind Regards Lennon
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: alexis on November 23, 2008, 11:30:28 PM
In all seriousness, did they "condemn" him back then, that they need to forgive him?

If not, WTF?

And do they "forgive" him for saying "Imagine there's no heaven?", or "Mother Superior jumped the gun"?
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: Bobber on November 24, 2008, 08:22:19 AM
Well, forgiving John Lennon is a start, although somehow I wish they had not forgiven him.
Now, what about all the rest that the Catholic church is guilty of?
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: An Apple Beatle on November 24, 2008, 09:36:51 AM
I can imagine Lennon teasingly saying 'Thanks Pope, that's dope!' lol
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: BlueMeanie on November 24, 2008, 11:54:35 AM
Quote from: 1393
[/b]

It looks as if the church was unwise at that time. And how can a church be unwise? It contradicts the very idea of a church.
The church should have said these very words then.
And what concerns John`s comment, one has to know John and to understand his character to realise why he said it.

Oh, I think the church can be very unwise. They teach people to believe in a higher power (g o d) when there is no evidence to support it. And yet they damn the theory of creation when there is a mass of evidence to support it.

Concerning John's comment, maybe he should have realised that most of the people listening to him didn't know him, or his true character, and therefore wouldn't understand him.
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: Jane on November 24, 2008, 09:32:18 PM
Quote from: 216
I just love that the Vatican is even thinking about Lennon.

Yes! Right!
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: Geoff on November 24, 2008, 09:45:28 PM
Okay, Vatican, I forgive you, too. Group hug?  ;D

And thanks for straightening out that Galileo business (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0CE4DD1E3DF932A05753C1A964958260). Gotta tie up those loose ends.
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: harihead on November 25, 2008, 03:26:22 AM
LOL! I guess their motto is, "Better late than never!"

But seriously, how seriously can you take guys with hats like that? I mean, seriously? (Oh, I used to love all that pomp when I was a little girl. Ah, the good old days!)
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: Hello Goodbye on November 25, 2008, 05:10:55 AM
The Beatles' hats are way cooler!

(http://www.maitea.com/fotos/beatles/beatles-07.jpg)
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: Sondra on November 25, 2008, 07:29:16 AM
Quote from: 551
LOL! I guess their motto is, "Better late than never!"

But seriously, how seriously can you take guys with hats like that? I mean, seriously? (Oh, I used to love all that pomp when I was a little girl. Ah, the good old days!)

Are you a recovering Catholic too? I'm over 10 years clean. Where's my pin?
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: BlueMeanie on November 25, 2008, 08:14:46 AM
Quote from: 216

Are you a recovering Catholic too?

What an excellent phrase!
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: colleengirl95 on November 25, 2008, 10:23:16 AM
My mom told me about this when we were eating in a japanese restaurant and i told her that i heard about it too because i always have beatles news letters but all i can say is Finally they have the hearts to forgive John... John was like handling too much at that time... too bad they didn't understand his situation and too bad people didn't have empathy. Still thank you for forgiving John.. i think he'd be happy to know this.
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: Joe on November 25, 2008, 10:29:09 AM
Response from Peter Brown in the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/25/opinion/l25lennon.html?_r=1
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: Geoff on November 25, 2008, 04:17:28 PM
Quote from: 551
LOL! I guess their motto is, "Better late than never!"

Maybe in contemplating eternity so much, time just slows down for them ...a lot.

Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: harihead on November 30, 2008, 06:03:37 PM
LOL! Yes, no sense in rushing. It seems John's forgiveness was on the fast track. Poor Galileo!

Quote from: 216
Are you a recovering Catholic too?
Guilty. Oops, that's redundant! :) No, I left the Catholic church about 30 years ago. I had an intense 2-year bout with born-again Christianity, before their insistence that I rejoice while my unsaved family burned to death before my eyes sort of cured me of the whole religion thing. I have led a productive, ethical life ever since, and never felt I needed religion to show me the way. The ethical laws of society are generally plenty good enough on their own, are way easier to bring up to date, and are what the majority of church-goers follow anyway. (Very few slaves and stonings these days, and extremely little turning of the other cheek.)

Colleengirl95, you are certainly correct in my book in suggesting that people could have more empathy. It would head off a lot of misunderstandings! But unless John was a religious person-- and I really can't get a bead on whether he was or not, as he seemed to have shifted about-- I don't think he'd really care if the church forgave him or not. He might find it mildly amusing, but I don't expect it would be particularly meaningful to him.

And sorry, HG, but those are silly hats. I'm not sure I would have wanted to wear one as a young girl. Although the Beatles also burned incense, which was another cool draw in the pomp department...
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: adamzero on November 30, 2008, 06:45:49 PM
Does this mean that John gets to forgive the Catholic Church for the Inquisition and Counter-Reformation?  

And I thought it was God who forgave, not humans.
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: harihead on November 30, 2008, 10:40:29 PM
I think everybody gets to forgive, AZ. I found it a particularly healthy habit, although I admit it was a good dozen years before I could be normal around my ex again. As for any special God-forgiving powers, I think he can still give you a "Get out of hell free" card, but you really ought to go to confession if you're Catholic.  
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: Mairi on December 01, 2008, 02:51:04 PM
As a Catholic, one of my favourite activities, along with judging other people, is killing adorable little kittens and drinking their blood.
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: HeyJude18 on December 01, 2008, 03:08:51 PM
As a former Catholic I like to keep kittens alive!  LOL.
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: alexis on December 01, 2008, 06:59:10 PM
I'm not Catholic, and I have problems with some of their core ideas ... but I know that a lot of people would feel similarly about mine (Presbyterian) ... but underlying all this bashing I wonder if there is an undercurrent of anger among some of our posters regarding the Catholic Church? That is disturbing to me, in that I wonder if rigidity or intolerance of one sort is being replaced by another ...
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: Jane on December 01, 2008, 09:38:58 PM
I wonder too, like Alexis, and would like to ask if you are all atheists?
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: adamzero on December 01, 2008, 09:52:30 PM
Quote from: 551
I think everybody gets to forgive, AZ. I found it a particularly healthy habit, although I admit it was a good dozen years before I could be normal around my ex again. As for any special God-forgiving powers, I think he can still give you a "Get out of hell free" card, but you really ought to go to confession if you're Catholic.  

Not a Catholic, just raised Episcopalian.  

I know the Lord's prayer says, "And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us."  "Trespass" is alternately translated "debts" and "sins"--however, from a theological perspective it would seem that only the Lord's power to forgive ultimately matters to the forgiven.  A human's power of forgiveness may help the forgiver spiritually (and help the forgiven to seek forgiveness in turn from the Lord).  But unless the forgiven seeks forgiveness from the Lord, an absolute spiritual authority, his/her forgiveness by a temporal authority (you or me) is ultimately meaningless.  

That's where the Catholic Church seems to cross the line for me.  It is ultimately a temporal institution investing itself with spiritual authority (to do all manner of good--and horrible--things).  

Hence the question, why "forgive" John Lennon, who is dead (and by orthodox Christianity, beyond the means to change his ultimate status as saved or damned)?  If they had really meant it, they should have forgiven him at the time he made his comment--both to assist in the working out of the salvation of their individual members and in putting John Lennon of a path to seek forgiveness from the Lord.  

There's no point to turning the other cheek if you want the person hitting you to go to hell.  And if you think that way, you're probably in hell psychically already.
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: Mairi on December 01, 2008, 11:57:21 PM
Indeed. It's up to God whether or not to "forgive" John, not the vatican. And anyway, most people still don't get that John wasn't bashing Christianity when he made that comment. Rather, he was remarking on the absurdity of one rock band's hold on a nation.
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: slick rick on December 02, 2008, 12:53:10 AM
too bad that it doesn't matter not if the vatican forgives john to him at all.nor me.it is all hype to generate the machine....don't fall in league.
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: Sondra on December 02, 2008, 12:56:00 AM
Quote from: 568
I'm not Catholic, and I have problems with some of their core ideas ... but I know that a lot of people would feel similarly about mine (Presbyterian) ... but underlying all this bashing I wonder if there is an undercurrent of anger among some of our posters regarding the Catholic Church? That is disturbing to me, in that I wonder if rigidity or intolerance of one sort is being replaced by another ...

The Catholic church has certainly brought on a lot of the criticism themselves in the last decade or so haven't they? Lots of hypocritical behavior and mixed messages.

I still identify with Catholicism in some way, and there's a lot to it that's very beautiful and positive, but there was also a lot of guilt and stress. Going through Sunday school, first communion, and confirmation isn't a picnic. Confession at age 8 is a bit scary and really unnecessary! Saying countless Hail Marys and Our Fathers to forgive your sins, the threat of purgatory, an angry God...that's a lot to deal with at that age. Then the guilt follows you through to adulthood. I sure can't get rid of it. And then only to find out that when their very own priests are committing horrible acts against children instead of a proper punishment, they cover it up! What kind of message is that??

Overall, I didn't have that many bad experiences considering other Catholics I've spoken to. Mostly those who attended Catholic school. My mom wouldn't send me because she was terrorized and even beaten by the nuns! And this story isn't exclusive to her that's for sure. So yeah, there may be a lot of anger there amongst Catholics and ex-Catholics alike, but most of us/them stay with it for some reason.

I think if you went through the experience, you have the right to talk about it. Positive or negative. That's not intolerance. Not by a long shot.
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: slick rick on December 02, 2008, 01:09:55 AM
i would suffice to say all religons have practiced genocide in one form or another...all are guilty....all will pay!!
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: An Apple Beatle on December 02, 2008, 05:36:49 AM
Meaningless is right AZ. Ever thought that this could be a pre-cursor to a sainthood in the future? Bets on how many years? lol......Just a daydream ponder.
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: Penny Lane on December 02, 2008, 02:29:18 PM
Author: The Beatles were a 'spiritual force'

(CNN) -- When John Lennon remarked in 1966 that the Beatles were then "more popular than Jesus" his comments prompted outrage in the United States. But this weekend the Vatican's newspaper paid tribute to the band on the 40th anniversary of the release of the "White Album" in an article interpreted by some as a papal pardon for Lennon.

CNN's Alessio Vinci spoke to Steve Turner, author "The Gospel According To The Beatles," about the controversy that helped to end the Beatles' touring career.

Q: Was Lennon surprised by the storm his comment generated?

A: I think John Lennon was surprised because it had been said in a casual way to a journalist who was a personal friend of his and he had no idea it would cause that sort of controversy. When it did happen he was actually quite frightened because they were about to go off on tour and there were these threats to their lives and a clairvoyant made some predictions that their plane would crash. It was really quite frightening and they wanted to cancel the tour but they knew they couldn't. They were under obligation to the tour promoters. And when he made his apology in Chicago, (the band's) press officer told me that John was actually in tears before he went in to make the apology.

Q: Was his apology sincere?

A: His apology was very carefully worded. He never said "I didn't mean that;" he kind of said, "if it was taken that way, that's not what I meant," but he never actually retracted it. The reason it happened that way, in America particularly, is that people thought the Beatles were getting too big, too proud and it was a way of putting them down and I think people grabbed that opportunity.

Q: Did they care at all what the Vatican newspaper had to say at the time?

A: I don't know that the Beatles had any particular concern about what the Vatican said. I know the Vatican did say something at the time. But by that time, everybody was pitching in with their opinion, and it just kind of gathered pace.

Q: If he were alive, what would he say about his "rehabilitation?"

A: It's very hard to say what John Lennon would say now if he knew that the pope had forgiven him or the Catholic Church had forgiven him because on the one hand he wrote to an American evangelist called Oral Roberts and said he had been very sorry. But in a book he said he was very glad that it had happened because it effectively ended the Beatles. Because that tour was so bad that it became the last tour the Beatles ever did. So he thought, "Thank you Jesus for causing this to happen -- because you gave me a solo career."

Q: How spiritual were the Beatles?

A: The Beatles started out as atheists and agnostics and I think as everybody knows they became more interested in spiritual things. They went out to India in 1968 and I think in a way the Beatles became a spiritual force themselves. And I think that John actually saw that. He saw Christianity and rock 'n' roll as competitors. Only three years later, after 1966, you had the Woodstock festival and you get rock music almost performing a religious function. So I think in a way he was aware of what was happening. The Beatles were almost becoming a religion and exerting a spiritual force over people.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/SHOWBIZ/Music/11/25/pope.beatles/index.html
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: alexis on December 02, 2008, 04:44:51 PM
Quote from: 216

The Catholic church has certainly brought on a lot of the criticism themselves in the last decade or so haven't they? Lots of hypocritical behavior and mixed messages.

I still identify with Catholicism in some way, and there's a lot to it that's very beautiful and positive, but there was also a lot of guilt and stress. Going through Sunday school, first communion, and confirmation isn't a picnic. Confession at age 8 is a bit scary and really unnecessary! Saying countless Hail Marys and Our Fathers to forgive your sins, the threat of purgatory, an angry God...that's a lot to deal with at that age. Then the guilt follows you through to adulthood. I sure can't get rid of it. And then only to find out that when their very own priests are committing horrible acts against children instead of a proper punishment, they cover it up! What kind of message is that??

Overall, I didn't have that many bad experiences considering other Catholics I've spoken to. Mostly those who attended Catholic school. My mom wouldn't send me because she was terrorized and even beaten by the nuns! And this story isn't exclusive to her that's for sure. So yeah, there may be a lot of anger there amongst Catholics and ex-Catholics alike, but most of us/them stay with it for some reason.

I think if you went through the experience, you have the right to talk about it. Positive or negative. That's not intolerance. Not by a long shot.

Agree, of course. It just stuck out to me that some of the comments in the above posts seem to me to be very attacking, indistinguishable in tone to me from some of the very same Church behaviors they are incensed about.  Not sure that the comments that stick in my mind are from those who say they are raised Catholic, vs. just from posters with strong anti-Catholic/anti-religious feelings for other reasons.

Just to make the point unambiguosly, I agree with you 100% - "you have the right to talk about it" ... even in my mind whether you went through the experience, or not (like me!).

Thanks -

Addendum: Is this some weird cosmic ironic coincidence or what ... there is an advert banner above right now for "Catholic Mates ... see who is right for you!". Too weird ...
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: Geoff on December 02, 2008, 06:42:07 PM
Quote from: 568
I wonder if there is an undercurrent of anger among some of our posters regarding the Catholic Church? That is disturbing to me, in that I wonder if rigidity or intolerance of one sort is being replaced by another ...

I think you're confusing intolerance with ridicule. The Church strapped a huge bull's eye on their collective butt with this one, and not surprisingly people are throwing things at it.  :)
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: aspinall_lover on December 02, 2008, 08:03:35 PM
Quote from: 971
I think John's answer would be:

Dear Pope,

It's - Happiness Is A Warm Gun
Not - Happiness Is A Warm Altar Boy

Kind Regards Lennon

^^^^^^^Hee, hee, hee!!!!!  Too freakin' funny!!!!!  And I AM Catholic..............
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: alexis on December 02, 2008, 08:09:55 PM
Quote from: 1161

I think you're confusing intolerance with ridicule. The Church strapped a huge bull's eye on their collective butt with this one, and not surprisingly people are throwing things at it.  :)

You may be right. It just seems almost too intense to be simply ridicule.

Speaking of which, did you hear the one about the guy who went to the psychiatrist, "Doc, I keep having these alternating recurring dreams. First, I'm a tepee; then I'm a wigwam; then I'm a tepee; then I'm a wigwam. It's driving me crazy. What's wrong with me?" The doctor replies: "It's very simple. You're two tents."  :)

And from the " 'This is too weird, another coincidence...?' Department", I just came across an advertisement for "The Life of Brian". Anyone ever see this? In my mind it does to religious fanatacism what "This is Spinal Tap!" did to pop music in general (and Yoko wannabees in particular?)  :)
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: aspinall_lover on December 02, 2008, 08:12:10 PM
Quote from: 216

The Catholic church has certainly brought on a lot of the criticism themselves in the last decade or so haven't they? Lots of hypocritical behavior and mixed messages.

I still identify with Catholicism in some way, and there's a lot to it that's very beautiful and positive, but there was also a lot of guilt and stress. Going through Sunday school, first communion, and confirmation isn't a picnic. Confession at age 8 is a bit scary and really unnecessary! Saying countless Hail Marys and Our Fathers to forgive your sins, the threat of purgatory, an angry God...that's a lot to deal with at that age. Then the guilt follows you through to adulthood. I sure can't get rid of it. And then only to find out that when their very own priests are committing horrible acts against children instead of a proper punishment, they cover it up! What kind of message is that??

Overall, I didn't have that many bad experiences considering other Catholics I've spoken to. Mostly those who attended Catholic school. My mom wouldn't send me because she was terrorized and even beaten by the nuns! And this story isn't exclusive to her that's for sure. So yeah, there may be a lot of anger there amongst Catholics and ex-Catholics alike, but most of us/them stay with it for some reason.

I think if you went through the experience, you have the right to talk about it. Positive or negative. That's not intolerance. Not by a long shot.
^^^^^^Very, very well put Sandra.  I am a "cradle Catholic" as they say, baptized into the faith at only two weeks of age.  My mom and dad had the same experiences with nuns when they went to Catholic schools.  And even when I went, back in the 1970's, it was still kinda scary with "the Penguins".  That's why I went to a public high school for 9-12 grades.
And as for confession, I go only once a year, before Easter, and not to our priest.  During Holy Week, there are several visiting priest who come to our church to hear confessions all day long.  This is when I go.  I do not like or care for our parish priest, so I refuse to go to him.  And besides, I think you can confess your sins to God yourself and be whole-heartedly sorrow and be forgiven instead of having a "mediator" in between..........

Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: alexis on December 02, 2008, 08:16:32 PM
Quote from: 1255
^^^^^^Very, very well put Sandra.  I am a "cradle Catholic" as they say, baptized into the faith at only two weeks of age.  My mom and dad had the same experiences with nuns when they went to Catholic schools.  And even when I went, back in the 1970's, it was still kinda scary with "the Penguins".  That's why I went to a public high school for 9-12 grades.
And as for confession, I go only once a year, before Easter, and not to our priest.  During Holy Week, there are several visiting priest who come to our church to hear confessions all day long.  This is when I go.  I do not like or care for our parish priest, so I refuse to go to him.  And besides, I think you can confess your sins to God yourself and be whole-heartedly sorrow and be forgiven instead of having a "mediator" in between..........


Sounds like a latent Lutherist!

Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: aspinall_lover on December 02, 2008, 08:25:04 PM
^^^^^^Yep, I'm a "way out there" Catholic.................
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: Mairi on December 02, 2008, 08:29:31 PM
^It's funny you should say that because I'm studying Luther right now! And Christianity in general really. It's given me an interesting perspective on my religious background, to be sure. Homestly I was always surprised to hear people's horror stories about the nuns because my mother and her siblings had nuns as teachers, although they went to public school, and they had nothing but great things to say bout them.

Anyway, was John even raised Catholic? I know that Paul and George were. but I never heard anything about Mimi taking John to church.
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: Sondra on December 03, 2008, 01:24:50 AM
Quote from: 568

Agree, of course. It just stuck out to me that some of the comments in the above posts seem to me to be very attacking, indistinguishable in tone to me from some of the very same Church behaviors they are incensed about.  Not sure that the comments that stick in my mind are from those who say they are raised Catholic, vs. just from posters with strong anti-Catholic/anti-religious feelings for other reasons.



I do think there's a lot of anti-religious sentiment around here, but it's how it's expressed sometimes that I think borders on disrespectful to those who do believe. I mean, to call it fantasy or fairy tales and imply that people who have faith are somehow being duped or are of lower intelligence  is a bit extreme, and yes intolerant. And guess what, who knows what's really up. Who are we to be so presumptuous. A  little humility goes a long way in these matters.
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: adamzero on December 03, 2008, 01:52:47 AM
Quote from: 218
^Anyway, was John even raised Catholic? I know that Paul and George were. but I never heard anything about Mimi taking John to church.

In the Mimi TV interview on the Aunt Mimi thread under the John section, she talks about him going to church every Sunday (and maybe more often than that).  The Stanleys were Church of England, I think.  Although the Lennons (Freddie and clan) may have been Catholic--probably were when they were in Ireland before emigrating to Liverpool.  

I agree with Sandra re. religion.  I hope my comments aren't construed as anti-religious or even as anti-Catholic.  Any institution will have its good and its bad, its saints and sinners, and a good mix of both.  After all, an institution is made up of individuals.  And people who blame religion for all the problems in the world ("Religulous" etc.), never seem to want to take the Nietzschean step of the will to power as the ultimate arbiter of value.  Ask the folks who lived under Stalin or Mao how wonderful it was to live in an atheistic regime.  Just look up the body counts.  

John's "bigger than Christ" comment by itself (in context) could be seen as almost religious.  If he didn't go on in the interview to call the apostles dull (even if he did like Jesus) and then say that Christianity would go (or words to that effect).  

But you always have to remember that what a person says doesn't necessarily equate with belief.  Also, I think there was a time in the late 70s (when John was in his room), when he went on a three-week TV evangelical kick.  His "salvation" however was short-lived.

Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: aspinall_lover on December 03, 2008, 04:19:19 AM
Everyone to each his/her own on religion.  I just "DO" what I have to do to appease the masses of my family.  There are alot of things I don't agree with in the Catholic church........but this is the church/religion I'm most familiar with............
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: aspinall_lover on December 03, 2008, 04:20:54 AM
..........and on another footnote............I read somewhere that George was the only Beatle baptized into the Catholic religion/faith..........correct me if I am wrong......
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: Bobber on December 03, 2008, 03:02:20 PM
Quote from: 1255
..........and on another footnote............I read somewhere that George was the only Beatle baptized into the Catholic religion/faith..........correct me if I am wrong......

I just read that George was offered the role of Brian (Jesus) in Monty Python's Life Of Brian.
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: alexis on December 03, 2008, 03:25:49 PM
Quote from: 216

I do think there's a lot of anti-religious sentiment around here, but it's how it's expressed sometimes that I think borders on disrespectful to those who do believe. I mean, to call it fantasy or fairy tales and imply that people who have faith are somehow being duped or are of lower intelligence  is a bit extreme, and yes intolerant. And guess what, who knows what's really up. Who are we to be so presumptuous. A  little humility goes a long way in these matters.

As usual Sandra, I can only agree with your posting to the nth degree.

And, if I may be allowed a small indulgence (not in a religious sense), I must say I'm a bit proud of my humility. I've been working on it lately, and have found that it is really quite a bit more than just about everyone else's that I know. It may not be too much of an exaggeration to say that I possess uber-humility.   :)

Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: aspinall_lover on December 03, 2008, 05:03:25 PM
^^^^^^^Yep, you two are BOTH RIGHT.
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: aspinall_lover on December 03, 2008, 05:04:36 PM
Quote from: 63

I just read that George was offered the role of Brian (Jesus) in Monty Python's Life Of Brian.
^^^^^^George was big buddies with the guys from Monty Python, especially Eric Idle.

Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: An Apple Beatle on December 03, 2008, 05:59:03 PM
^Didn't handmade films have something to do with the Python series?
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: aspinall_lover on December 03, 2008, 07:14:55 PM
Quote from: 15
^Didn't handmade films have something to do with the Python series?
^^^^^^Yes, I think so.  They always had those silly little cartoon like clips in the show.

Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: HeyJude18 on December 03, 2008, 08:23:46 PM
Quote from: 15
^Didn't handmade films have something to do with the Python series?

George's production company produced the Life of Brian, and George made a cameo in it, I haven't really watched too closley to see if I could spot him.
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: Jane on December 03, 2008, 08:35:59 PM
It`s interesting that people are turning away from Catholic religion, practically only from this one. I`ve never heard anyone turning away from any other: Protestant, Orthodox, Islam so on. Though Latin America is all Catholic. What is happening to the Western countries: the USA and Europe? very interesting indeed! I was sure that the majority of people believed in God there, I was mistaken...
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: HeyJude18 on December 03, 2008, 08:46:29 PM
Quote from: 1393
It`s interesting that people are turning away from Catholic religion, practically only from this one. I`ve never heard anyone turning away from any other: Protestant, Orthodox, Islam so on. Though Latin America is all Catholic. What is happening to the Western countries: the USA and Europe? very interesting indeed! I was sure that the majority of people believed in God there, I was mistaken...

I think that here most people try to find a distinction between "God" and "religion".  I can only speak for myself, and right now I am at the point in my life where I don't believe in any sort of traditional god, it's more like I believe that there's a force that connects people, places, things, and time together (kinda sci-fi nerd of me...)  I'm not into bashing a person for believing something or not, I just know that if there is a god, that's cool, if there isn't, that's cool too.  I don't feel like because I don't identify myself with a religion or a particular view of a god figure doesn't mean that I am a bad person, I'm not sure if that's how other people feel, but that's what I think.  My two cents, I couldn't be apathetic to this anymore.
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: Penny Lane on December 03, 2008, 09:27:40 PM
Quote from: 1255
..........and on another footnote............I read somewhere that George was the only Beatle baptized into the Catholic religion/faith..........correct me if I am wrong......

I heard that Paul McCartney is a baptized Roman Catholic too (although he is not necessarily religious).  Am I wrong?
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: Mairi on December 04, 2008, 04:44:24 PM
George was baptised and had his Confirmation. I'm pretty sure Paul was raised Catholic, but he'd more likely be Irish Catholic than Roman Catholic, I think.
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: The Swine on December 09, 2008, 10:42:15 AM
was there something to forgive in the first place?
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: Andy Smith on December 10, 2008, 12:33:32 AM
look i don't think it ought to be blasphamy, just saying Johava!  :P
Title: Vatican says it is sorry!!!
Post by: AngeloMysterioso on April 12, 2010, 02:11:27 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100412/ap_on_en_mu/eu_vatican_beatles;_ylt=AhuYe..Tpq0RIHbkXDI.XlGs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNtcGZrZ3R2BGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwNDEyL2V1X3ZhdGljYW5fYmVhdGxlcwRjY29kZQNtb3N0cG9wdWxhcgRjcG9zAzgEcG9zAzUEcHQDaG9tZV9jb2tlBHNlYwN5bl9oZWFkbGluZV9saXN0BHNsawN2YXRpY2FubWFrZXM- (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100412/ap_on_en_mu/eu_vatican_beatles;_ylt=AhuYe..Tpq0RIHbkXDI.XlGs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNtcGZrZ3R2BGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwNDEyL2V1X3ZhdGljYW5fYmVhdGxlcwRjY29kZQNtb3N0cG9wdWxhcgRjcG9zAzgEcG9zAzUEcHQDaG9tZV9jb2tlBHNlYwN5bl9oZWFkbGluZV9saXN0BHNsawN2YXRpY2FubWFrZXM-)
Title: Re: Vatican says it is sorry!!!
Post by: Kevin on April 12, 2010, 02:24:24 PM
It took the Vatican 400 years to apologise for imprisioning Gallilao because he said the earth revolved around the sun, so I guess 40 years is pretty fast by papal standards.
Title: Re: Vatican says it is sorry!!!
Post by: AngeloMysterioso on April 12, 2010, 02:52:24 PM
It took the Vatican 400 years to apologise for imprisioning Gallilao because he said the earth revolved around the sun, so I guess 40 years is pretty fast by papal standards.
Apologize? Nah. They only expressed regrets. mind you.
Title: Re: Vatican says it is sorry!!!
Post by: Joost on April 12, 2010, 04:48:34 PM
I hope that someday in the future they'll apologize for their ongoing campaigns for unsafe sex and the discrimination of homosexuals.
Title: Re: Vatican says it is sorry!!!
Post by: LennonStarrFan on April 12, 2010, 08:09:45 PM
Ringo Starr: 'Vatican has more to talk about than the Beatles'By Phil Han, CNN
April 12, 2010 12:54 p.m. EDT

London, England (CNN) -- The Vatican may have forgiven the Beatles over the weekend for their "satanic" messages -- but Ringo Starr, the legendary band's drummer, says he couldn't care less.

In a tribute published to mark the 40th anniversary of the breakup of the band, who singer John Lennon once claimed were "more popular than Jesus," the Vatican newspaper "L'Osservatore Romano" said it had forgiven them and called them a "precious jewel."

But Starr told CNN: "Didn't the Vatican say we were satanic or possibly satanic -- and they've still forgiven us? I think the Vatican, they've got more to talk about than the Beatles."


Source: http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/04/12/ringo.starr.vatican.beatles/ (http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/04/12/ringo.starr.vatican.beatles/)
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: nyfan(41) on April 13, 2010, 11:50:36 AM
i think the present pope condemned the beatles as satanic as recently as the 80s. the eagles too.
.
.
you know . . . pope benedict . . . . the one who was in the nazi party as a kid. yeah he joined hitler youth
those were "different times" and i'm kindof a tradtionalist but . . 'former nazi' looks so bad on a pope resume   ha2ha :o :-X
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: Bobber on April 13, 2010, 11:56:45 AM

you know . . . pope benedict . . . . the one who was in the nazi party as a kid. yeah he joined hitler youth
those were "different times" and i'm kindof a tradtionalist but . . 'former nazi' looks so bad on a pope resume   ha2ha :o :-X

I'm not a fan of the pope, but you have to be precise. In those days (1939 and later), boys in Germany of his age were forced to join Hitler Youth.
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: Joost on April 13, 2010, 12:15:47 PM
I'm definately not a fan of the pope either, but you can't blame him for having been in the Hitler Jugend.

Quote
Following his 14th birthday in 1941, Ratzinger was conscripted into the Hitler Youth but was an unenthusiastic member who refused to attend meetings.[7] His father was a bitter enemy of Nazism, believing it conflicted with the Catholic faith. In 1941, one of Ratzinger's cousins, a 14-year-old boy with Down syndrome, was taken away by the Nazi regime and killed during the Aktion T4 campaign of Nazi eugenics.[8] In 1943, while still in seminary, he was drafted into the German anti-aircraft corps as Luftwaffenhelfer.[7] Ratzinger then trained in the German infantry, but a subsequent illness precluded him from the usual rigours of military duty. As the Allied front drew closer to his post in 1945, he deserted back to his family's home in Traunstein after his unit had ceased to exist, just as American troops established their headquarters in the Ratzinger household. As a German soldier, he was put in a POW camp but was released a few months later at the end of the war in the summer of 1945. He reentered the seminary, along with his brother Georg, in November of that year.
Title: Re: The vatican 'Forgives' lennon!
Post by: nyfan(41) on April 14, 2010, 12:10:49 AM
well thanks joost and bobber, i did present that kind of unfairly
though that's what i meant when i said 'those were different times' . .
and regardless of the circumstance, it's still not a good look for a pope
i'm not a fan either
i have family in the clergy and i know all about this political little weasly co-conspiritor . . . was that biased enough?  ha2ha
.
anyway, on a side note - here's the quote i was referring to where he singles out the beatles. lol - 1996 !!!
  just . . back away from the floyd slowwwwwwly
.
.

From the Times, 25Th Nov 1996.

Cardinal condemns pop devil music

FROM RICHARD OWEN IN ROME

ONE of the Roman Catholic world's most powerful figures
has branded rock music an "instrument of the Devil" and
urged young people not to listen to it for fear of
endangering their souls.

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, head of the modern successor
to the Inquisition, said there were "diabolical and
satanic messages" in much of today's heavy metal music.
But he also warned the young against the "subliminal"
satanic influence to be found in songs by such groups
as the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, Pink Floyd, Queen,
Led Zeppelin and the Eagles.

Cardinal Ratzinger, Prefect of the Congregration for
the Doctrine of the Faith, is considered the highest
moral authority in the Vatican after the Pope, at whose
side he has been for almost all of the latter's 18-year
reign. His stern admonishment and even excommunication
of dissident theologians has earned him a fearsome
reputation.

Speaking yesterday at a Mass marking the feast of St
Cecilia, the patron saint of music, Cardinal Ratzinger
agreed that there were many good things in modern pop
music, but added that there was also a great deal that
"endangers the human soul". He urged heavy metal bands
in particular to "purify themselves".

Vatican officials identified some of the "worst
offenders" as Alice Cooper, Black Sabbath and AC/DC,
whose initials they claimed referred not to alternating
current or even bisexuality, but to the satanic phrase
"Anti-Christ, Death to Christ".