DM's Beatles forums

Beatles forums => Songs => Topic started by: Loco Mo on December 24, 2016, 12:22:06 AM

Title: Session guitarists on 2 Beatles songs
Post by: Loco Mo on December 24, 2016, 12:22:06 AM
I read something that suggested that session guitarists were used on "Til there was you" and the solo in "Let it be" because none of the Beatles were capable of playing them.  Has anyone else heard about this?  Is this a credible claim?

I also read that some of the early Beatles stuff, right after they became famous, had overdubs by other guitarists.  This implies that the Beatles were lacking in technical competence at the time.  True?  If so, they really kept this a very good long-time secret from the fans.  Also, it's hard to believe these other guys would have kept their roles secret after all these years.  I think they would ultimately want credit.  So that is why I'm disinclined to believe that session guitarists were used.  But yet it really seems very plausible and makes a lot of sense to me.  If your band isn't up to snuff and they're very popular, bring in professionals to fill the gaps (and to make them sound good).  But - I don't know.  What do you all think?
Title: Re: Session guitarists on 2 Beatles songs
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 24, 2016, 12:56:06 AM
George was quite capable of playing and did play the guitar solos in both those songs...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUjFpdxFWHU# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUjFpdxFWHU#)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyaKumcg050# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyaKumcg050#)
Title: Re: Session guitarists on 2 Beatles songs
Post by: Loco Mo on December 24, 2016, 01:21:03 AM
Thanks, Hello.  I'm going to post something else about this.  I just have to find it.
Title: Re: Session guitarists on 2 Beatles songs
Post by: Moogmodule on December 24, 2016, 01:38:02 AM
I read something that suggested that session guitarists were used on "Til there was you" and the solo in "Let it be" because none of the Beatles were capable of playing them.  Has anyone else heard about this?  Is this a credible claim?

I also read that some of the early Beatles stuff, right after they became famous, had overdubs by other guitarists.  This implies that the Beatles were lacking in technical competence at the time.  True?  If so, they really kept this a very good long-time secret from the fans.  Also, it's hard to believe these other guys would have kept their roles secret after all these years.  I think they would ultimately want credit.  So that is why I'm disinclined to believe that session guitarists were used.  But yet it really seems very plausible and makes a lot of sense to me.  If your band isn't up to snuff and they're very popular, bring in professionals to fill the gaps (and to make them sound good).  But - I don't know.  What do you all think?

As time distances it's easier for people to make these claims. Like Bernard Purdie and his claim to have drummed on the early Beatle records (he'd only overdubbed some of the Decca audition tapes for use in the US to make up for Pete Best) But Lewisohn's comprehensive Beatle Recording Sessions should put most of them to rest.

As for claims the Beatles couldn't have played some of the early solos, George was more than capable of doing very good solo work,  even in the early stages of the Beatles career,  if he'd had time to learn his part and get it right. Where he struggled was improvising or coming up with things on the run.  And he was inconsistent.

And claims he couldn't have played the Let it Be solo is just ridiculous. George had developed into a fine guitarist by this stage. The Let it Be solo isn't technically difficult. Just typical melodic George. His work on Octopuses Garden was more technically demanding than that.

Certainly session musicians were used. The Kinks used a session drummer on some early tunes. The Byrds barely played on their first few songs, except for Roger McGuinn. And of course Ringo was elbowed aside for Love Me Do. It seems drummers were particularly prone to this, probably because the transition from live to studio was particularly difficult for them and, while you can work around a few bum guitar notes, a drummer who isn't keeping steady time or is clumsy will completely wreck your song.
Title: Re: Session guitarists on 2 Beatles songs
Post by: Loco Mo on December 26, 2016, 02:14:21 PM
Okay, here's my last argument pasted from a YouTube fan's comment (Peter H):  "The evidence against "Til There Was You" is total and absolute.  The live version (which he plays on electric) bares not one trace of what is played on the recorded version.  YouTube it.  And here is the absolute proof!  The recorded version is played by a brilliant claw-hammer Spanish guitarist with FINGER NAILS.  Yet Harrison bit his to the bone.  Tell me how did he manage that?  And let me tell you more - Lennon said no member of The Beatles could fingerpick and asked Donovan to teach him in India in 1968.  Yet according to you, Harrison is an expert and was all along!
If you read about Let It Be (Wiki), Lennon knows nothing about it because they weren't there! It was "a solo effort.”  What is written on the sheets is meaningless.  After all, Lennon is (according to the sheet) co-author!  Strange that he never played that well or in that style again, isn't it?  I mean he couldn't even play the strum lead on My Sweet Lord and yet here he is brilliant on a technically demanding track!  I rest my case."

Okay, I don't necessarily believe the above quote but I thought it was interesting.
Title: Re: Session guitarists on 2 Beatles songs
Post by: Loco Mo on December 26, 2016, 02:36:07 PM
Hello:  The live version of "Til" seems to show all 3 of them very actively playing their guitars.  I don't know what John was doing but he really looked busy.  It's hard to tell if George was doing finger style picking but it kind of looked like that from the claw like look of his picking hand.  Video wasn't clear enough.

The Let it Be video doesn't show them playing.  The photo of George looks like he has a tight grip on his plectrum.  BTW and irrelevant, the background vocal accompaniment sounds sort of tuneless and uninspired.

Kind of hard to believe the Beatles wouldn't have been familiar with finger style because an awful lot of untutored guitarists throughout history and throughout the world all seem to discover it on their own or by just copying the old timers they've encountered who used that style.  You don't have to be anything brilliant to play finger style. 

But I guess there will always be these types of arguments about the Beatles and just how good they really were with their instruments.

Title: Re: Session guitarists on 2 Beatles songs
Post by: Moogmodule on December 26, 2016, 09:26:22 PM
Okay, here's my last argument pasted from a YouTube fan's comment (Peter H):  "The evidence against "Til There Was You" is total and absolute.  The live version (which he plays on electric) bares not one trace of what is played on the recorded version.  YouTube it.  And here is the absolute proof!  The recorded version is played by a brilliant claw-hammer Spanish guitarist with FINGER NAILS.  Yet Harrison bit his to the bone.  Tell me how did he manage that?  And let me tell you more - Lennon said no member of The Beatles could fingerpick and asked Donovan to teach him in India in 1968.  Yet according to you, Harrison is an expert and was all along!
If you read about Let It Be (Wiki), Lennon knows nothing about it because they weren't there! It was "a solo effort.”  What is written on the sheets is meaningless.  After all, Lennon is (according to the sheet) co-author!  Strange that he never played that well or in that style again, isn't it?  I mean he couldn't even play the strum lead on My Sweet Lord and yet here he is brilliant on a technically demanding track!  I rest my case."

Okay, I don't necessarily believe the above quote but I thought it was interesting.

I think a lot of this is just an example of what passes for thought on the internet.

Point 1: what he plays live on the electric is very close to the record in terms of notes. Its sound is totally different because he's not using his Ramirez classical.

Point 2: the writer uses a logical fallacy by assuming in his argument the point he wants to prove. Ie. the solo was played by a brilliant Spanish guitarist. To his mind ergo it couldn't have been George. As he wasn't a brilliant Spanish guitarist. Trouble is he hasn't established that it was a brilliant Spanish guitarist. He's assumed that.

Point 3: To my mind the sound and feel George gets in Til there was you is similar to And I Love Her. On the Hard Days Night Version (admittedly mimed but no reason why George wouldn't just mimic what he did for the recording)  George is clearly seen playing with a pick. Unless the writer thinks they had this Spanish guitarist on a confidential retainer to come back and play whenever an acoustic classical sound was needed.

As for the later things on George never playing that well again after Let it Be, the mind boggles. I'm not even sure what the writer means by George not being able to play the "lead strum" on My Sweet Lord? As I said previously, the lead on Let it Be isn't technically difficult. George did a hell of a lot harder stuff on slide in his solo years.

In short. The writer seems like a numpty whose ignorance is matched only by his lack of logical thinking skills.
Title: Re: Session guitarists on 2 Beatles songs
Post by: KelMar on December 26, 2016, 10:24:27 PM
In short. The writer seems like a numpty whose ignorance is matched only by his lack of logical thinking skills.

Numpty. What a great word! There certainly is no shortage of numpties residing in the YouTube comments sections. In fact, that's how I discovered this forum. I was looking for some intelligent Beatles discourse where every discussion didn't include mention of William Campbell.
Title: Re: Session guitarists on 2 Beatles songs
Post by: Moogmodule on December 26, 2016, 10:37:03 PM
Hello:  The live version of "Til" seems to show all 3 of them very actively playing their guitars.  I don't know what John was doing but he really looked busy.  It's hard to tell if George was doing finger style picking but it kind of looked like that from the claw like look of his picking hand.  Video wasn't clear enough.

The Let it Be video doesn't show them playing.  The photo of George looks like he has a tight grip on his plectrum.  BTW and irrelevant, the background vocal accompaniment sounds sort of tuneless and uninspired.

Kind of hard to believe the Beatles wouldn't have been familiar with finger style because an awful lot of untutored guitarists throughout history and throughout the world all seem to discover it on their own or by just copying the old timers they've encountered who used that style.  You don't have to be anything brilliant to play finger style. 

But I guess there will always be these types of arguments about the Beatles and just how good they really were with their instruments.

George had an interesting guitar style early on where  he used a pick but at the same time used his free fingers to pluck. You can see this on live videos. I think it was his Carl Perkins method.
Title: Re: Session guitarists on 2 Beatles songs
Post by: Moogmodule on December 26, 2016, 10:40:00 PM
Numpty. What a great word! There certainly is no shortage of numpties residing in the YouTube comments sections. In fact, that's how I discovered this forum. I was looking for some intelligent Beatles discourse where every discussion didn't include mention of William Campbell.

It is a good word. It's a favourite downunder  ;)

There is no end of blather on some sites. I recall one where someone decided Clapton did the guitar solo on Something. Just...just because. The guy used some argument that George's attempts to play it live were always disastrous. Not sure what live things he looked at. The ones I'd seen had George playing it fine.
Title: Re: Session guitarists on 2 Beatles songs
Post by: KelMar on December 26, 2016, 11:10:36 PM

There is no end of blather on some sites. I recall one where someone decided Clapton did the guitar solo on Something. Just...just because. The guy used some argument that George's attempts to play it live were always disastrous. Not sure what live things he looked at. The ones I'd seen had George playing it fine.

Oh good grief! I've been really trying to avoid any kind of Internet comments sections of late. I always end up kicking myself when I do give in to the urge to look.
Title: Re: Session guitarists on 2 Beatles songs
Post by: blmeanie on December 27, 2016, 12:38:36 AM
Numpty, love it. ;yes
Title: Re: Session guitarists on 2 Beatles songs
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 27, 2016, 12:51:46 AM
Right.  If brains were dynamite, he wouldn't have enough to blow his nose.
Title: Re: Session guitarists on 2 Beatles songs
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 27, 2016, 01:15:36 AM
But I guess there will always be these types of arguments about the Beatles and just how good they really were with their instruments.


Only if you keep reading those nillwits' comments on YouTube.




https://youtu.be/yYvkICbTZIQ (https://youtu.be/yYvkICbTZIQ)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXilwLSnF6I# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXilwLSnF6I#)


And you thought Paul only played bass on Paperback Writer.
Title: Re: Session guitarists on 2 Beatles songs
Post by: Moogmodule on December 27, 2016, 02:33:49 AM


The Let it Be video doesn't show them playing.  The photo of George looks like he has a tight grip on his plectrum.  BTW and irrelevant, the background vocal accompaniment sounds sort of tuneless and uninspired.

It depends also which solo he's referring to. George did the original one on the single (the one he's seen playing in the movie)  but went back in to do the second which was used on the album.

The album version is considered superior so I assume this is the version the writer means. To me this is a good example of exactly how George liked to work. The first version was fine and was considered good enough for the single. George thought he could do it better and went in again to overdub after no doubt painstakingly composing the new one. The writer seems to be asking us to believe that, having done a solo everyone accepted, George decided to get another guitarist (Clapton of course. It was always Clapton) to come and do the solo to replace George's. Doesn't seem quite credible. In any case while it's a good solo it doesn't bear the hallmarks of the bluesier players of the time who would be the candidates for subbing in for George. To me it sounds like George's typical style of that era.  Subtle vibrato and bends for instance.
Title: Re: Session guitarists on 2 Beatles songs
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 27, 2016, 04:42:45 AM
George had an interesting guitar style early on where  he used a pick but at the same time used his free fingers to pluck. You can see this on live videos. I think it was his Carl Perkins method.


George was a great fan of Carl Perkins.  And Chet Atkins, which was why he bought Gretsch Chet Atkins guitars.

No doubt he was a fan of Don Rich too...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDmDwvZSlPw# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDmDwvZSlPw#)





George Harrison had the chance to play a great guitar solo in Act Naturally.   Two...three...four...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I04kEZcqvi4# (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I04kEZcqvi4#)



 icon_good

Title: Re: Session guitarists on 2 Beatles songs
Post by: Fab4Fan on December 28, 2016, 04:23:22 AM
Right.  If brains were dynamite, he wouldn't have enough to blow his nose.

Heh, heh, heh... love this!
Title: Re: Session guitarists on 2 Beatles songs
Post by: Loco Mo on December 31, 2016, 02:47:41 AM
Well, after reading the comments, I recognize how silly the notion was - that a special Spanish guitar master was brought in to the finger picking bit.  Seems like the poster just couldn't believe the early Beatles could play so well.  But they did.  I think that's one of the reasons they were commonly referred to as "The Amazing Beatles" back then.
Title: Re: Session guitarists on 2 Beatles songs
Post by: KelMar on December 31, 2016, 03:04:23 AM
I think that's one of the reasons they were commonly referred to as "The Amazing Beatles" back then.


Or England's Phenomenal Pop Combo.  ;)

(http://i66.tinypic.com/xofyig.jpg)

Title: Re: Session guitarists on 2 Beatles songs
Post by: Moogmodule on August 15, 2019, 12:55:47 AM
As time distances it's easier for people to make these claims. Like Bernard Purdie and his claim to have drummed on the early Beatle records (he'd only overdubbed some of the Decca audition tapes for use in the US to make up for Pete Best) But Lewisohn's comprehensive Beatle Recording Sessions should put most of them to rest.


As I hate to leave incorrect info I spout uncorrected,  ;D I should note that Purdie overdubbed the Sheridan session stuff the Beatles did for US release, not the Decca auditions.

Title: Re: Session guitarists on 2 Beatles songs
Post by: Togger on June 11, 2021, 04:45:58 AM
Well, after reading the comments, I recognize how silly the notion was - that a special Spanish guitar master was brought in to the finger picking bit.  Seems like the poster just couldn't believe the early Beatles could play so well.  But they did.  I think that's one of the reasons they were commonly referred to as "The Amazing Beatles" back then.

I think Loco Mo may be on to something. I bet most of the Beatles records were pieced together from bits and pieces of playing, or they recorded their music at a slower tempo and sped it up for the actual finished record. Look at the Live at the BBC album. In certain songs, Ringo plays an uptempo complicated intro, but NEVER plays the same way again in his career. It's as if he became a worse player as time went  by. Is that even possible? But it makes sense if other musicians actually played for them, or tricks were used in the studio to make them seem better than they were. Ringo himself said he couldn't play rolls and that he didn't like to show off, but here he does that on Live at the BBC. Doesn't make sense to a person who really analyzes their playing.
Title: Re: Session guitarists on 2 Beatles songs
Post by: Moogmodule on June 11, 2021, 05:08:51 AM
You do realise the quote you’ve given from Loco is completely opposite to your contention?
Title: Re: Session guitarists on 2 Beatles songs
Post by: Moogmodule on June 13, 2021, 06:48:20 AM
Anyway, what you’re suggesting isn’t that far out. Many bands of the time used session musicians in place of members. The Beach Boys used the Wrecking Crew on some of their albums and on the Byrd’s first single (Mr Tambourine Man) McGuinn was the only member to be allowed to play, with the Wrecking Crew again providing the playing. The Kinks used a session drummer a lot on their first album, including on the singles and were still bringing in session musos playing in place of usual members on Face to Face. The thing is all these details are known. The musicians union in UK at the time was very powerful in the industry and proper documentation of session players was always required. So while these bands didn’t advertise that they’d used session players, anyone who wanted to dig would eventually find the records. In the Beatles case there simply isn’t that documentation to support the idea they used session musicians in place of their own playing (they of course used heaps when hiring orchestras and things). And lots of contrary evidence from the many people who saw them in the studio (engineers and other visitors) and the obsessively detailed biographers they have, such as Mark Lewisohn and Andy Babiuk who delve into all their recordings. We know that Andy White played on Love me Do and PS I Love You on the first album. Due to the studio records we also know that a session drummer was used on the Hard Day’s Night Album - it was engineer Norman Smith who had to quickly do some minor overdubs on Can’t Buy Me Love as the tape had a fault that affected the hi hat sound. The idea that the Beatles used a lot of session players amounts now to a conspiracy theory that would have required the studio’s rigid control from even their earliest recordings. And as if any muso who had done this on a Beatle recording wouldn’t have come forward at some point to claim it. The only one we know of is the Bernard Purdie case which never stacked up and just made him look crazy.
 
The tape manipulation to make things easier to play probably happened on a couple of occasions. The most famous is George Martin’s piano on In My Life. That was to achieve an effect but also, as Martin admits to, because he couldn’t have played it that fast in real time. They also did the half speed thing to help George on the solo on Hard Day’s Night and I also think on the quick guitar arpeggios on Help, although George did play that fine live not long after. On both these occasions it seems they just wanted to avoid wasting valuable studio time. Aside from that I’m not aware of any other tape manipulations to help them actually play something. There might be some others, I have some vague recollection of maybe a Paul piano part getting the treatment, but there’s no evidence it was that much of a common occurrence. They used tape speed changes mainly as an effect. One of the most famous tape manipulations, on Rain, actually took a faster track and slowed it down. Many people cite this as one of Ringo’s best performances.

I wouldn’t characterise changes in Ringo’s playing as “getting worse”. His drumming changed as the requirements changed. As a live rock drummer in the early 60s he had to play what the song needed. Which he was very good at and why he was an in-demand drummer in Liverpool. One of his most impressive intros on the BBC tapes was on I’m Going to Sit Right Down and Cry, the version on the Star Club tapes from late 1962 is as wild if not more so. He didn’t play like that later in the decade as the songs they recorded didn’t need it. Even then there was impressive if more subtle playing. For example on Here Comes the Sun. As another example of his earlier playing check out his live playing on Long Tall Sally in Washington in 1964 on YouTube.

While Ringo did say he doesn’t like solos and flash, he never said he couldn’t do rolls. George Martin made an offhand comment on that once and it got repeated. Ringo played flashily when the song and audience needed it. The “Ringo couldn’t drum” trope really is the most tired of the Beatle myths that has been buried so many times it deserves its own gravestone.