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Bobber

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Sun King
« on: February 03, 2006, 02:57:05 PM »

I just put some things together (sorry for administrating here...) about the song Sun King. Raxo explained some things into the bootlegforums, but as this is not visited by everyone (and certainly not guests), I thought I'd put it here, especially after lennon-legend brought the case up again in another thread.


Quote from: lennon-legend
Quando paramucho mi amore de felice carathon - (Sun King lyric)


Quote from: raxo
Cuando para mucho mi amore de felice corazon ... (to my ears   )


Quote from: lennon-legend
its very possible

Sun King
Author: John Lennon; Lead vocal: John Lennon



[Italian lyrics broken down phoenetically]

Here comes the sun king
Here comes the sun king
Everybody's laughing
Everybody's happy
Here comes the sun king

Quando paramucho mi amore de felice carathon
Mundo paparazzi mi amore cicce verdi parasol
Questo abrigado tantamucho que canite carousel

i just took this from the forums beatles site, but like it says the lyrics are broken down phoenetically


Quote from: raxo
I'm going to try to explain what John seems to be singing on Sun King (Abbey Road, 1969)
I've used some of the explanations given in the following site from Spain and some sites with lyrics (DM's site included):

http://www.upv.es/~ecabrera/

John said that Sun King had come to him in a dream. The lyrics, a mixture of Sunnish, Italian and Portu-guess mean nothing at all. However, it is true that at least it's one of the two songs The Beatles ever sung with lines in Sunnish (Besame Mucho and Sun King) although we could add to this list Los Paranoias (which was not a working title of Sun King as some authors quote and we could all see in Anthology 3). I'm almost sure though, that Paul had much to do in the Sunnish part of the lyrics, since some of the phrases come from almost complete ones, and Paul was the one knowing a little Sunnish (as he has often showed). Here is the translation of most of the terms in the song:

(S): sunnish  (I): Italian  (P): Portu-guess  (W): worldish

Cuando (S): When. Impossible to say if it's italian or sunnish 'cos it's the same word in both languages.

Para (S): For , but it also means to, and it's also the reflexive verb "parar(se)" (stop) used for 3rd person of singular (He/She/It) ... one example "ella (se) para" (she stops (herself)).
Some sources use this word and the following as one but that is nonsense as both are sunnish and "paramucho" it's not Italian or Portu-guess as far as I know. It also could have been a pun -in sunnish- as a structured word: some examples: "paraguas"(umbrella) using "para" from the verb "parar"(stop) and "agua(s)" (water(s)). Another example is "parasol" (sunshade) with "para"(stop) and "sol" (sun). Anyway, in the phrase this pun makes no sense so I have to admit that they were not at such a level.
Some say that it's Italian on the song but the Italian word should have been "parasole" 'cos in Italian sun is "sole" not "sol" ... and the "e" in parasole sounds like the "e" in "volare": the famous Italian song)

Mucho (S): Very (not exactly), "muy" means "very" but "mucho" almost always means "a lot of" or "very much" and in some cases something like "often")

Mi amore de felice (I): My love of happy. Tho "mi" and "de" are the same words in sunnish and Italian, here seem to be in Italian to make more sense as a complete phrase.

Corazon (S): Heart.  That even makes some sense
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zipp

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Re: Sun King
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2006, 04:33:03 PM »

What is Sunnish?
What is Portu-guess?
What is Worldish?
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Bobber

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Re: Sun King
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2006, 08:33:02 PM »

Sunnish is a raxoism for Spanish
Portu-guess is a raxoism for Portuguese
Worldish is a raxoism for English
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raxo

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Re: Sun King
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2006, 09:47:33 PM »

Quote from: zipp
What is Sunnish?
What is Portu-guess?
What is Worldish?

What Is Life?
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raxo

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Re: Sun King
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2006, 09:50:44 PM »

Quote from: Bobber
Sunnish is a raxoism for Spanish
Portu-guess is a raxoism for Portuguese
Worldish is a raxoism for English

... and Por - Tu - Guess is also a pun with sunnish and worldish, 'cos "Por Tu" means "For your" in sunnish and "Guess" in worldish means ... well, you already know that ... so: ForYourGuess!

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zipp

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Re: Sun King
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2006, 10:01:34 PM »

Quote from: Bobber
Sunnish is a raxoism for Spanish
Portu-guess is a raxoism for Portuguese
Worldish is a raxoism for English


What's raxish?

Don't answer that.

And for what it's worth:

Sun King

In 1971 John said that "Sun King" came to him in a dream, but in 1980 he said it was "garbage". This song by Lennon reminds me of a combination of I Am the Walrus and Because. It contains basically nonsense, combined with wonderful harmonies, making it a really beautiful song. The closing lines are nothing more than Italian, Spanish and Portugese words which are more common to tourists. John Lennon, in 1969 said, "We just started joking, you know, singing `quando para mucho.' So we just made up... Paul knew a few Spanish words from school, you know. So we just strung any Spanish words that sounded vaguely like something. And of course we got `chicka ferdy' in, a Liverpool expression. "Chicka ferdy" could also be a combination Spanish/Liverpudlian pun "chica verde" [green girl] or just like `na-na, na-na-na'-- "as one child would say to taunt another." `Cake and eat it' is another nice line too, because they have that in Spanish-- 'Que' or something, and eat it." In this song, The Beatles freely mixed dialects and languages here, (Italian, Spanish, and Portuguese) and when this is combined with less than perfect enunciation and accent, many uncertainties arise, leading to many possible interpretations. The words are as published: "Quando paramucho mi amore de felice corazon Mundo paparazzi mi amore chica ferdy parasol Cuesto obrigado tanta mucho que can eat it carousel" "Parasol" is an umbrella, of course, but literally translates as "para sole" as in for the sun, or perhaps "pa re sole" for sun king. "Paparazzi" are people who take pictures of celebrities. "que can eat it" should be "que/cake and eat it", "carousel" is a popular brand of chocolates in Britain. "Obrigado" is Portuguese [thank you], or "obbligato" [musical term - secondary, yet necessary part] A literal translation would most likely be: Quando para mucho mi amore de felice corazon "If/When For Much, My Love Of Happy Heart" Mundo paparazzi mi amore chicka/chica ferdy/verde para sole "World Paparazzi, My Love, Chicka/Girl Ferdy/Green For The Sun Cuesto obrigado, tanta mucho, que/cake and eat it, carousel/cara sole This Thanks, Very Much, Cake and Eat It, Carousel/Dearest Sun Regardless, I think it's still a rather cool song!

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raxo

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Re: Sun King
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2006, 10:19:29 PM »

Some mistakes there ... I'm not going to explain all of them, but to point them ...

 

Paul knew MORE than a few sunnish words from school, you know. He can speak a little sunnish NOW, so imagine when he was younger!

If they freely mixed dialects and languages without any sense don't you think that there are too many puns there and possible interpretations for a casual writing?.

You say that:

The words are as published: "Quando paramucho mi amore de felice corazon Mundo paparazzi mi amore chica ferdy parasol Cuesto obrigado tanta mucho que can eat it carousel"

"Parasol" is a sunshade -umbrella is "paraguas" in sunnish-, (but "parasole" is an italian word).

Then: ...but literally translates as "para sole" as in for the sun, or perhaps "pa re sole" for sun king.
All this interpretation is wrong cos he didn't sing parasole but parasol (the last "e" in parasole sounds as the last "e" in "volare") and "for the sun" is "para EL sol" in sunnish. It makes sense if you use the adjective "verde/green" referencing to the sunshade (parasol and not "para (el) sol", "pa re sol" or wathever) instead of to girl/chica. And he's not singing "pa re sol" by no means ... anyway, "pa re sol" are THREE different words so "re" shold be pronunced begining with a strong -R- and if they were trying to play with the ords as such a level:
pa' - colloquial "para": for, to, third person of verb stop, ...(sunninsh)
re - king in italian
sol - sun in sunnish
why didn't they use sunnish all the way: pa' rey sol? almost the same to italian here. (*)

Then you say:
 "Paparazzi" are people who take pictures of celebrities. "que can eat it" should be "que/cake and eat it", "carousel" is a popular brand of chocolates in Britain.
My answer here is: why they put the pronoun "it" and the noum too?.

And finally: A literal translation would most likely be: Quando para mucho mi amore de felice corazon "If/When For Much, My Love Of Happy Heart" Mundo paparazzi mi amore chicka/chica ferdy/verde para sole "World Paparazzi, My Love, Chicka/Girl Ferdy/Green For The Sun Cuesto obrigado, tanta mucho, que/cake and eat it, carousel/cara sole This Thanks, Very Much, Cake and Eat It, Carousel/Dearest Sun Regardless, I think it's still a rather cool song!

All those translations and/or words are wrong, sorry  :-/ ... and it'll take a lot of time explaning why and which should be the right ones and their meanings (I began this work a few days ago -more things came to my mind but I thought that the info asked was given at that time to that person- ...  

(*)Anyway, it's very clear that someone of that site(s) -there are more than one- got a non-very-good transcription from another person and then tried to see what all that could mean by researching in dictionaries (Bobber should be laughing right now thinking about on-line ones  :P ) ... I must say that that's not the best way ... at least if you're confusing people (I'm not talking about you, zipp, but 'bout that person who started it all on his site).


... but interesting reading, zipp.


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zipp

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Re: Sun King
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2006, 10:50:30 PM »

Quote from: raxo
1.Paul knew MORE than a few sunnish words from school, you know.
2.The words are as published: "Quando paramucho mi amore de felice corazon Mundo paparazzi mi amore chica ferdy parasol Cuesto obrigado tanta mucho que can eat it carousel"
3."Parasol" is a sunshade
4. "que can eat it" should be "que/cake and eat it",
5."carousel" is a popular brand of chocolates in Britain.

1.This is a John song.
2.Published by whom?
3.Yes indeed.
4.'You can't have your cake and eat it.' - a proverb and a joke in this context.
5.Never heard of the chocolates.A carousel is a fun fair merry go round or a hit musical.

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raxo

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Re: Sun King
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2006, 11:49:29 PM »

Quote from: zipp

1.This is a John song.
2.Published by whom?
3.Yes indeed.
4.'You can't have your cake and eat it.' - a proverb and a joke in this context.
5.Never heard of the chocolates.A carousel is a fun fair merry go round or a hit musical.


Have you read what YOU posted? ??)

Anyway, answering:

1. John didn't write all that passage by his own, I tell you.
2. You must know ... I can post the link(s) you used if you want it
3. But not "an umbrella" ... there's a difference ... maybe not a big one but ...
4. I don't get the joke ... here
5. You posted it, ... you should have know. If he's singing that, OK, but if they "strung any sunnish words that sounded vaguely like something" as John said ...  ??)  carousel in sunnish is "carrusel" but what I hear there is "cara al sol" (sunnish), but I admit that I'm not very sure about the end of this line.
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raxo

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Re: Sun King
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2006, 11:56:07 PM »

Quote from: zipp

1.This is a John song.
2.Published by whom?
3.Yes indeed.
4.'You can't have your cake and eat it.' - a proverb and a joke in this context.
5.Never heard of the chocolates.A carousel is a fun fair merry go round or a hit musical.


Quote from: zipp


What's raxish?

Don't answer that.

And for what it's worth:

Sun King

In 1971 John said that "Sun King" came to him in a dream, but in 1980 he said it was "garbage". This song by Lennon reminds me of a combination of I Am the Walrus and Because. It contains basically nonsense, combined with wonderful harmonies, making it a really beautiful song. The closing lines are nothing more than Italian, Spanish and Portugese words which are more common to tourists. John Lennon, in 1969 said, "We just started joking, you know, singing `quando para mucho.' So we just made up... Paul knew a few Spanish words from school, you know. So we just strung any Spanish words that sounded vaguely like something. And of course we got `chicka ferdy' in, a Liverpool expression. "Chicka ferdy" could also be a combination Spanish/Liverpudlian pun "chica verde" [green girl] or just like `na-na, na-na-na'-- "as one child would say to taunt another." `Cake and eat it' is another nice line too, because they have that in Spanish-- 'Que' or something, and eat it." In this song, The Beatles freely mixed dialects and languages here, (Italian, Spanish, and Portuguese) and when this is combined with less than perfect enunciation and accent, many uncertainties arise, leading to many possible interpretations. The words are as published: "Quando paramucho mi amore de felice corazon Mundo paparazzi mi amore chica ferdy parasol Cuesto obrigado tanta mucho que can eat it carousel" "Parasol" is an umbrella, of course, but literally translates as "para sole" as in for the sun, or perhaps "pa re sole" for sun king. "Paparazzi" are people who take pictures of celebrities. "que can eat it" should be "que/cake and eat it", "carousel" is a popular brand of chocolates in Britain. "Obrigado" is Portuguese [thank you], or "obbligato" [musical term - secondary, yet necessary part] A literal translation would most likely be: Quando para mucho mi amore de felice corazon "If/When For Much, My Love Of Happy Heart" Mundo paparazzi mi amore chicka/chica ferdy/verde para sole "World Paparazzi, My Love, Chicka/Girl Ferdy/Green For The Sun Cuesto obrigado, tanta mucho, que/cake and eat it, carousel/cara sole This Thanks, Very Much, Cake and Eat It, Carousel/Dearest Sun Regardless, I think it's still a rather cool song!


If you'd not the chance ... you can read what you posted NOW ... can't you?!

4. I didn't get the joke there

---

Half or even more is wrong, but I don't want to be the new Maria so I won't insist ... have a nice one!  :)
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raxo

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Re: Sun King
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2006, 12:50:35 AM »

This is the original post ... presented here in a better image quality ... -Ooops we're not in bootlegforum now  ;D - ...  dunno why all the red and italiacs and so were lost in Bobber's but I think that in this form is clear-er.

Quote from: raxo

I'm going to try to explain what John seems to be singing on Sun King (Abbey Road, 1969)
I've used some of the explanations given in the following site from Spain and some sites with lyrics (DM's site included):

http://www.upv.es/~ecabrera/

John said that Sun King had come to him in a dream. The lyrics, a mixture of Sunnish, Italian and Portu-guess mean nothing at all. However, it is true that at least it's one of the two songs The Beatles ever sung with lines in Sunnish (Besame Mucho and Sun King) although we could add to this list Los Paranoias (which was not a working title of Sun King as some authors quote and we could all see in Anthology 3). I'm almost sure though, that Paul had much to do in the Sunnish part of the lyrics, since some of the phrases come from almost complete ones, and Paul was the one knowing a little Sunnish (as he has often showed). Here is the translation of most of the terms in the song:

(S): sunnish  (I): Italian  (P): Portu-guess  (W): worldish

Cuando (S): When. Impossible to say if it's italian or sunnish 'cos it's the same word in both languages.

Para (S): For , but it also means to, and it's also the reflexive verb "parar(se)" (stop) used for 3rd person of singular (He/She/It) ... one example "ella (se) para" (she stops (herself)).
Some sources use this word and the following as one but that is nonsense as both are sunnish and "paramucho" it's not Italian or Portu-guess as far as I know. It also could have been a pun -in sunnish- as a structured word: some examples: "paraguas"(umbrella) using "para" from the verb "parar"(stop) and "agua(s)" (water(s)). Another example is "parasol" (sunshade) with "para"(stop) and "sol" (sun). Anyway, in the phrase this pun makes no sense so I have to admit that they were not at such a level.
Some say that it's Italian on the song but the Italian word should have been "parasole" 'cos in Italian sun is "sole" not "sol" ... and the "e" in parasole sounds like the "e" in "volare": the famous Italian song)

Mucho (S): Very (not exactly), "muy" means "very" but "mucho" almost always means "a lot of" or "very much" and in some cases something like "often")

Mi amore de felice (I): My love of happy. Tho "mi" and "de" are the same words in sunnish and Italian, here seem to be in Italian to make more sense as a complete phrase.

Corazon (S): Heart.  That even makes some sense
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Bobber

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Re: Sun King
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2006, 01:04:19 PM »

Sorry I made you explain a lot more, Raxo. But an interesting discussion between you two again. ;D
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raxo

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Re: Sun King
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2006, 03:49:59 PM »

Quote from: Bobber
Sorry I made you explain a lot more, Raxo. But an interesting discussion between you two again. ;D

No worries, friend, it's a pleasure ... but when I began to explain that last post I had not noticed the thread I was in -I thought I was still in GreenApple's "Guy Game"-... and I didn't know that you've already re-posted the one from bootlegforum ... so I was trying to sun up, somehow, the first one instead of quoted it ... then I realized and feel bad 'cos if I would have known it form the very beginning I would not post any reply to zipp (for nothing special, I enjoy him, of course  :) ) ... I wouldn't because reading the whole thread now my posts look like Maria's ... and if I was a damn god who knows everything ... well, remember that it's not like that: I mustn't look like a god ... BEING ONE! LOL!

I apologized for that  :-/  ... not for the last statement but for the last replys/posts 8)
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zipp

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Re: Sun King
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2006, 04:11:49 PM »

Quote from: raxo

Paul knew MORE than a few sunnish words from school, you know. He can speak a little sunnish NOW, so imagine when he was younger!

If they freely mixed dialects and languages without any sense don't you think that there are too many puns there and possible interpretations for a casual writing?.

... but interesting reading, zipp.

I posted the extract 'for what it was worth' but mainly for the Lennon quote.
I imagine that when he was younger Paul knew very little Spanish.German from Hamburg and a bit of French but not much else.
And I don't see that many puns in there.
Spanish/Italian/Portuguese sounding words with Liverpool 'chicka ferdy' and '(You can't have your) cake and eat it' thrown in for a laugh.
Plus paparazzi, parasol and carousel which are now standard English imported from abroad.


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zipp

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Re: Sun King
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2006, 04:18:06 PM »

Quote from: raxo
reading the whole thread now my posts look like Maria's ... and if I was a damn god who knows everything ... well, remember that it's not like that: I mustn't look like a god ...

Don't worry, Rax.If you were Maria I'd already have run a mile.

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raxo

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Re: Sun King
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2006, 04:44:23 PM »

Quote from: zipp

Don't worry, Rax.If you were Maria I'd already have run a mile.


If I were her ... I would be hating myself in her best style! LOL!
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raxo

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Re: Sun King
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2006, 04:50:47 PM »

Quote from: zipp
....
I imagine that when he was younger Paul knew very little Spanish....

And I don't see that many puns in there.
Spanish/Italian/Portuguese sounding words with Liverpool 'chicka ferdy' and '(You can't have your) cake and eat it' thrown in for a laugh.
Plus paparazzi, parasol and carousel which are now standard English imported from abroad.



I wouldn't say "very little". Oh no!

Acording to the words and their real meanings there are a lot of puns ... better: lots of people want to see lots of puns (I tried myself answering a petition on bootlegforum) ...

I respect your point of view and if you want to believe in the internet reviews, transcriptions and translations, OK for me.  :)

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zipp

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Re: Sun King
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2006, 01:09:44 AM »

A pun is INTENTIONAL wordplay.
You're reading things into the lyrics that the Beatles weren't even aware of.
What proof have you got to the contrary?
Did Paul even take Spanish at school?
Did John know the difference between para and tanta mucho?
I really do doubt it.
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raxo

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Re: Sun King
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2006, 09:54:32 PM »

Quote from: zipp
1. A pun is INTENTIONAL wordplay.
2. You're reading things into the lyrics that the Beatles weren't even aware of.
3. What proof have you got to the contrary?
4. Did Paul even take Spanish at school?
5. Did John know the difference between para and tanta mucho?
6. I really do doubt it.

1. Yes, and ...?
2. I said I was going to try to explain what he's singing and you seem to know what they were aware of pretty well, don't you?
3. And you to the contrary? Again, I'm just talking about something WE ALL can have got our own opinion because it's only noise, sound, music and/or words ...
4. He studied it at school.
5. Who is saying it was John who wrote all the lyrics? I'm not. By the way, what "tanta mucho" means and in which language?
6. John? ... and PAUL??? uh???
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zipp

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Re: Sun King
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2006, 11:02:51 PM »

1.You said there were lots of puns in the song.I would say there aren't any.There's no intentional wordplay as in Because with, for example, 'The world is round, it turns me on'.

2.Good luck.Trying to explain inspired nonsense is going to be hard.

3.The contrary of the contrary?Er...

4.When?Where?How long for?I've never noticed much Spanish in his songs.

5.I think it was basically John's song with a few ideas from the others thrown in.
As for tanta mucho, if you can't identify the language then that's the whole point isn't it?They were just messing around with Spanish type words.The sound was more important than the meaning.
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