DM's Beatles forums
Solo forums => John Lennon => Topic started by: Brynjar on August 17, 2005, 08:15:58 PM
-
Ahh yeah... I was just curious about why John felt he needed to response to Dylan
-
I don't think he 'needed' to do it as such, it was supposed to be a private response - I think John was just annoyed that Dylan felt we all had to "serve somebody".
-
yeah he was annoyed that one of his 'once heroes' was saying everyone has to serve someone, and he thought the opposite that everyone needs to serve themself, as a private joke/response to dylans song.dont forget it was never intended for release until 'yokeeey' came along...
-
^ Exactly :)
-
I love this song. Man, does he lay it on. One thing Yoko couldn't take from him was his incredibly creative mind. Brilliant.
-
It may not have been ever intended for release by "Yokey" or whatever you called her... but I think she deserves thanking for bringing it to the public as a documentary of John during his private life and gives us more insight into the man and not just the songs that were released during his lifetime.
Remember without "Yokey"... Yoko we would not have heard "Real Love" ANY version of it! She does well with Lennons estate and I think she deserves a lot more respect, the only thing I thought was a bit dodgy was the "Acoustic" album... but then again she did say it was only intended as a Japan release only but the US label said they should release it all over.
-
Yeah, yeah, enough about Yoko.
Anyway, I pretty much second what lennonlegend said. Great post, man.
-
I didn't disagree with him about Lennons reasons for the song, I disagreed with the Yoko comment, and how can you say enough about her when I was addressing Johns music and that it wouldn't be heard without her, so she deserves thanks especially for the song in question.
-
Okay, it's just that we have a thread about Yoko already. I wasn't trying to be a b**** or anything.
-
It just shows what kind of insecure @sshole John could be. As other people have said, who was he to belittle or question somebody elses beliefs or faith?
-
he was searching........like all of us.
-
It just shows what kind of insecure @sshole John could be. As other people have said, who was he to belittle or question somebody elses beliefs or faith?
Don't we all question these things privately?
-
My theory is, live and let live. It really p*sses me off when people critize my faith so I never do it to others.
-
Not even privately.
-
I don't believe in Junior
I don't believe in The End
I don't believe in Tkitna
I don't believe in PC
I don't believe in Sandra
I don't believe in Frightwolf
I don't believe in Adam
I don't believe in Lenny
I don't believe in Lemon
I don't believe in Paulsluv
I don't believe in AppleBeatle
I don't believe in Bruno
I don't believe in Moondog
I don't believe in Mairi
I just believe in me, my bootlegs and me...And that's reality.
The post is over, what can I say?
-
good shoe.....really good shoe.......
-
Don't we all question these things privately?
Exactly! Why did John feel that he had to ridicule somebodys faith out in the open? I think it made him look like a jerk. He wasnt to keen on Dylan anyways and I think it was a personal attack. Nothing unusual for john.
-
I don't believe in Junior
I don't believe in The End
I don't believe in Tkitna
I don't believe in PC
I don't believe in Sandra
I don't believe in Frightwolf
I don't believe in Adam
I don't believe in Lenny
I don't believe in Lemon
I don't believe in Paulsluv
I don't believe in AppleBeatle
I don't believe in Bruno
I don't believe in Moondog
I just believe in me, my bootlegs and me...And that's reality.
The post is over, what can I say?
Oh, so I wasn't worth a mention, was I? I see how it is! (grin)
-
Oh, so I wasn't worth a mention, was I? I see how it is! (grin)
I thought for sure I put you on there. A thousand apologies, consider it modified. Then again, after comparing me to a certain member who shall remain nameless, it should be your penance.
-
Lol, it's not a big deal.
-
If stuff like that didn't motivate John to write, then we probably wouldn't have half the Lennon songs we have now. He was an artist. They have strange quirks like that. He probably thought Dylan was a hypocrite. Which some might think he is anyway.
-
Well, that's what Imagine was all about, wasn't it.
-
What? You mean the whole religion thing?
-
Yes.
-
John could be a real jerk when it came to religion. *sigh* great guy but...
-
Yeah, I think he was pretty much an agnostic. Not an atheist like a lot of people think. That and he probably was questioning things. I think with Dylan, and the whole born again thing, was a little much for him to get around. Now Bob's back to being jewish. He was obviously not too sure about things himself. I wonder if John would have put this song out. He might have ended up thinking it was a bit much himself for all we know.
-
Yeah, he was pretty conflicted about the whole thing, I think. Ironic considering he was such a peace crusader and that's basically what most religions promote.
-
Except for all the killing in the name of God. That's kind of confusing. I mean, why would God want you to kill people to get them to live his way of life and all. Sort of strange how much violence there's been because of organized religion.
-
The thing to remember, though, is that
It ain't necessarily so, it ain't necessarily so
De t'ings dat yo' li'ble to read in de Bible
It ain't necessarily so
Li'l David was small, but oh my
Li'l David was small, but oh my
He fought big Goliath
who lay down and dieth
Li'l David was small, but oh my
Oh, Jonah, he lived in de whale
Oh, Jonah, he lived in de whale
Fo' he made his home in dat fish's abdomen
Oh, Jonah, he lived in de whale
Li'l Moses was found in a stream
Li'l Moses was found in a stream
He floated on water
Til Ole Pharoah's daughter
She fished him, she says, from that stream
It ain't necessarily so, it ain't necessarily so
Dey tell all you chillun de debble's a villun
But it ain't necessarily so.
To get into Hebben don't snap for a sebben
Live clean, don have no fault
Oh, I takes dat gospel
Whenever it's pos'ble
But wid a grain of salt
Methus'lah lived nine hundred years
Methus'lah lived nine hundred years
But who calls dat livin'
when no gal will give in
To no man what's nine hundred years?
I'm preachin' dis sermon to show
It ain't nessa, ain't nessa, ain't nessa, ain't nessa
Ain't necessarily so.
I mean, the Bible has been translated so many times that things have been jumbled. The whole gay thing has been misinterpreted, IMO. It was the whole "sex is only for reproduction" thing.
-
Of course. That's why organized religion isn't always the way to go. The so called religous leaders tend to pervert the scriptures into whatever suits their agenda. I sort of like what John said about Jesus and his disciples. Kind of cuts to the point. I'm not saying all organized religion is bad, of course it's great for many people, but you have to be smart about what goes on and what is taught in the name of God.
-
Well, I think you can, y'know, follow an organized religion even though you disagree with some of its doctrines. Like I'm Catholic, but I think there should be women priests and gays should be allowed to marry outside the church. By working from the inside, maybe some of the changes can be made. In fact I was just reading in the paper last month about a woman priest who was.. uh... i forget the word, but she was made a priest anyway.
-
Yeah, and the whole birth control thing should be addressed too. I also think priests and nuns should be able to marry. I think they've relaxed a bit about divorce though but I'm not sure. When my mom got remarried, she couldn't get married in the 'eyes of God' because she was excommunicated for getting divorced. Like she should have stayed with her abusive ex-husband just because the church frowned upon that sort of thing. I alse think the abortion issue needs to be rethought. I mean, if a woman is raped or something that should be allowed. Of course if you're willing the practice the religion but only follow the rules that suit you, it's a different story. I'm not trying to be down on religion or anything at all, just debating. Of course this is always a touchy topic, but I think discussion is healthy. I mean, it helps me see a new perspective anyway. I admire your beliefs Mairi, and I wish I was that sure in mine. I used to be, but I don't know what happened.
-
My opinion on the whole abortion/birth control is that it's better to do that than have a child grow up in a home without love, or die a slow death in one of those African countries. Because it's not only the white population that follows these beliefs. I think we need to ease into it slowly because of course they don't have the smae views as us on these types of things.
And thank you for not being rude or insenitive. It is de rigour to diss religion these days (Christianity and Catholcism in particular) so it's refreshing to see someone who doesn't subscribe to either extreme.
-
I think it's all a tad old fashioned.
Yeah, Christianity is helping, but it's also raking in the cash at the same time!
Like I said, I'm dead set against such power.
I think it's all a tad easy y'know..heaven....everyone being together somewhere..The savior dying..etc.. . all of that I think is Disney..but the basic teachings..Do not kill..etc etc..are obviously needed in any society.
-
Millions of people have been killed in the name of God and all kind of religions. The church as it is today has explained the words and meaning of Jesus just for their own good, IMHO. The Christian church is as middle-aged as the Islam in some points. I'm pretty negative about this, don't mean to offend however. Like Indy, I think the ten commitments (originally fifteen, did you know that?) are the base of every modern society.
-
My 2 cents worth.
As far as I know every human society that has walked this planet has found the need to have a god/gods. All of them. Whether it's a spiritual or evolutionary need it is very strong. I am a total disbeliver, but confess to praying very sincerly in moments of crisis.
Very few wars have actually been fought over religious doctrine (it usually boils down to good old territory, like competing bands of chimps) , but I do not find it unsuprising that it is the banner which most people can identify with and rally around.
Don't steal, kill or be greedy are pretty common sense rules for any group of humans wanting to get on.
-
Exactly! Why did John feel that he had to ridicule somebodys faith out in the open? I think it made him look like a jerk. He wasnt to keen on Dylan anyways and I think it was a personal attack. Nothing unusual for john.
My point is that it was never John's intention for that track to be released, so in effect it was a private thought. I don't know why Yoko felt it was in everyone's interest to hear it though.
-
Well, we all know Yoko has moved away from the Bagism...and is into her new groove - Capitalism.
(http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/8130/ono5zg.jpg)
(Here is some Avante Gard Art for you Ono ;) )
-
Millions of people have been killed in the name of God and all kind of religions. The church as it is today has explained the words and meaning of Jesus just for their own good, IMHO. The Christian church is as middle-aged as the Islam in some points. I'm pretty negative about this, don't mean to offend however. Like Indy, I think the ten commitments (originally fifteen, did you know that?) are the base of every modern society.
But you know, if people weren't killing in the name of religion, they would find some other excuse. It's human nature. We are essentially evil.
And I don't think any of those things are "easy answers" in the least. It's not easy to accept that Jesus died because of us... and the people who betrayed him... it's not easy to accpet these things without solid proof. It's a matter of faith, whether you have it or not.
Jesus taught about peace and acceptance, and maybe some people have used the power of the church for selfish reasons, but I feel it is my generation's duty to work out those things and bring Christianity back to what it was meant to be... acceptance of all. Jesus befriended theives and prostitutes and forgave a murderer as they both died on the cross.
I don't see anything wrong with following a religion that teaches the same basic principles that I believe in. I want to be as good a person as I can be, and maybe I have no self-discipline, I need some guidance.
If religion is not for you then that's fine, but I see no need to do away with it completely, as there are those who do believe and take great comfort in it.
-
Oh, I do respect those who follow the rules of Christianity. And I do believe in a God. But it's not my direction to go and practice it in the way the Catholic church (or any other church) explains it. It's my opinion that it's damaged too much, too many lies, too many people killed (and not just in wars. People were burnt alive because they didn't believe in a way the church wanted them to. And it has never been excused in a proper way, as far as I know). That's not my piece of cake. It's a beautiful thing if you believe it's the task of your generation to bring back the acceptance of all. I really mean that I wish you all the best with that and sincerely hope you will succeed. It's a good thing you find your guidance in that. I mean, basically we believe in the same things, right. It's just that I find my guidance in my own belief.
This WAS a thread about serving yourself, right? Amen.
-
Peace. :)
-
Mmm, and acceptance of course.
-
But you know, if people weren't killing in the name of religion, they would find some other excuse. It's human nature. We are essentially evil.
Easy tiger. ALL animals fight to protect their territory. It is the nature of things. If we are evil then so are hedgehogs and woodpeckers.
-
Oh, definitely. It's just that humans are smarter and we SHOULD know right from wrong.
-
Yes, if only. But sadly, despite all the lessons, we don't.
But I truly believe that we are prey to the same laws of nature as any other animal on this planet. And I don't think nature ( maybe God to you??? ) does things just to p*ss us off. So maybe (not wanting to sound like a Nazi here) in the long run war does perform some useful function to our species. Technological development is one thing that springs to mind. I can't come up with any other answer.
-
Well, we all know Yoko has moved away from the Bagism...and is into her new groove - Capitalism.
LOL!! Nice one! ;D
-
I'd just like to say this really is a good discussion - great to see some decent debate that doesn't resort to an all out slanging match! ;D
-
I agree with you Al. Usually when I get into debates like this it's with a bunch of self-righteous rebellious teenagers, and it usually ends up in a personal fight.
-
Yes, if only. But sadly, despite all the lessons, we don't.
But I truly believe that we are prey to the same laws of nature as any other animal on this planet. And I don't think nature ( maybe God to you??? ) does
-
Wow: God gave us free will. Now that is something to think about. God (or as Kevin calls it: nature) didn't, I think. We will always be acting within the borders of nature. We will always be called back. But I will sleep a night on this one.
-
Being spiritual is fine--practice your faith/what or who you believe in in your own personal way and don't pontificate to others. Organized Religion can lick my left one.
-
practice your faith/what or who you believe in in your own personal way
What if organized religion is the way they want to practice? Some people work well that way. It's just a fan club for God, or whatever you believe in.
-
Many religions teach that you SHOULD pontificate to others, or at least spread the word. That's what it's all about. Getting the word out. At least in the Christian religions. There's a great article in Newsweek this week about Spirituality in America. Very enlightening. More people searching than you would think.
-
My theory is, if someone wants to know, then by all means give them information. But don't force anything on people.
I know this from personal experience as the Jehovah's Witnesses next door as well as my dad's friend who is a born-again, are always trying to convert us.
-
Unlucky ^
-
My theory is, if someone wants to know, then by all means give them information. But don't force anything on people.
I know this from personal experience as the Jehovah's Witnesses next door as well as my dad's friend who is a born-again, are always trying to convert us.
Well, that's what I'm saying. If people need organized religion, fine. There's alot of people that find comfort in hearing the Gospel or whatever and that's fine. There's also alot of sheep out there. Personally, I don't have a need for organized religion, having been raised on fire and brimstone Lutheran doctrine. Now you have those who were raped by 'men of the cloth' finally coming out, etc., Charlatans like the Pat Robertsons of the world. And people that need to ram their beliefs down everyone's throats. "God" has been used, abused, and manipulated in every fashion imaginable, mostly for personal gain or to hide behind. Spirituality is a personal thing, practice it, or not, as you see fit. I'm in the Jehovah Witness Protection Program by the way.
-
I think i've been scratched off of our local Jehovah's list as I always go to the door scratching myself in nothing but my tighty whiteys. Not a pretty sight.
-
But hasn't religion always been organised? There aren't too many times when humans think "I'll just keep this God thing to myself." We're complex social animals and our need to share is overwhelming - look at us on this board. Every society everywhere at everytime shows its belief to God/s through some kind of organised worship. That's why I think religion probably is an evolutionary device.
I have to say though, I find the thought that the universe is the result of a series of accidents and chemical reactions as equally hard to believe.
I still pray when the sh*t hits the fan (sincerly)
-
I think i've been scratched off of our local Jehovah's list as I always go to the door scratching myself in nothing but my tighty whiteys. Not a pretty sight.
Hey T, this works pretty well too:
(http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/2152/jnocker15sh.th.jpg) (http://img377.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jnocker15sh.jpg)
-
Hey T, this works pretty well too:
([url]http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/2152/jnocker15sh.th.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://img377.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jnocker15sh.jpg[/url])
Lol! Priceless!