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Other music forums => Musician's Corner => Topic started by: alexis on April 26, 2009, 11:05:36 PM

Title: George's Harmonies
Post by: alexis on April 26, 2009, 11:05:36 PM
I've been listening to a lot of the earlier Beatles lately, and focusing on George's harmonies.

Seems to me like he was always mixed really low by George Martin when they were doing three part. For example, "This Boy", "I Feel Fine", or (to a lesser degree) "I'll Get You". Sometimes to hear his harmonies, I almost have to "reverse engineer" them - peck out Paul's upper and John's lower voices, then figure out where George's would "have to be", go back and listen, and voila - it was there all the time! I wonder why George Martin did that ... is that the standard way to mix 3 part harmony - emphasis on the upper and lower harmonies at the expense of the middle? I'm going to listen to "Yes it Is" next, I think, and see how things worked there.

I also think he had the harder harmonies most of the time. Paul and John's could almost always be an independent melody, like the Everly Bros. did a lot. But George had to sort of sing the note that was "left over" that the other two didn't sing, which though it sounded awesome, was maybe not as intuitively melodic ... harder to sing maybe, at least for me.

What do you singer/musicians think?

And lastly, another question for this esteemed forum - do you think George figured out all his harmonies, or John/Paul said something like "Here, George, here's your part"? My bet is on the former, but who's to say?
Title: Re: George's Harmonies
Post by: FourMiles on April 27, 2009, 02:25:51 AM
I've been listening to them since 1963 and like anything you repetitiously listen to, you start to hear all the little details about their voices. George had unique way of phrasing and it was distinguishable even at low volume with most of his vocal parts. His pronunciation was always very clear. Listen to him singing the backup vocals in
Title: Re: George's Harmonies
Post by: harihead on April 27, 2009, 03:57:52 AM
I have nothing sensible to add, but I love the discussion!
Title: Re: George's Harmonies
Post by: Bobber on April 27, 2009, 07:28:57 AM
I think FourMiles made some good points. Thing with these close harmonies is that sometimes they're so close, it's hard to tell how many voices are singing. Let alone to tell who is who.
Title: Re: George's Harmonies
Post by: alexis on April 27, 2009, 05:41:08 PM
Thanks, interesting points all!

One thing we'll never know: Did George Martin mix George's voice lower on records than it sounded live when the three of them were around a microphone?

I think he may have ... live concerts (Shea, for example, I'm Down), it seems George was pretty prominent. I don't know their live stuff well, so I'll have to go off and listen now!

But first - "Yes It Is" ... had a few listens today in the car, boy his George mixed low at times! Off to listen more!!
Title: Re: George's Harmonies
Post by: Bobber on April 27, 2009, 06:33:15 PM
Quote from: 568
Thanks, interesting points all!

One thing we'll never know: Did George Martin mix George's voice lower on records than it sounded live when the three of them were around a microphone?

I think he may have ... live concerts (Shea, for example, I'm Down), it seems George was pretty prominent. I don't know their live stuff well, so I'll have to go off and listen now!

But first - "Yes It Is" ... had a few listens today in the car, boy his George mixed low at times! Off to listen more!!

I'm not really sure when they started to record the voices seperately. Certainly in the early days with only two tracks available, I guess they all gathered round the microphone and sang all together. George should have sung louder, that's all!  ;D
Title: Re: George's Harmonies
Post by: alexis on April 27, 2009, 07:39:28 PM
Just read that the three of them sang "This Boy" on one mic at the Washington Coliseum. Wonder if there is any audio/video for that somewhere, see how loud George was compared to the other two ...

Title: Re: George's Harmonies
Post by: harihead on April 28, 2009, 12:33:31 AM
Interesting point of the live recordings, Alexis. I seem to remember hearing a popular version of Help (not sure if it was Shea; can't think of which offhand), but George's distinctive Liverpudlian drawl is easily heard.

Quote from: 63
George should have sung louder, that's all!  ;D
Excellent point, Cor. Perhaps George, being more self-conscious, didn't sing as loudly into the microphone. But in a live environment, where they all tended to shout, he would have had to let loose.


Title: Re: George's Harmonies
Post by: alexis on April 28, 2009, 05:15:41 AM
5xOfg8XMc6w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xOfg8XMc6w)

They seemed a mite unhappy with the sound man, whoever he was!
Title: Re: George's Harmonies
Post by: Bobber on April 28, 2009, 07:58:53 AM
Quote from: 568
They seemed a mite unhappy with the sound man, whoever he was!

Remember they had to turn everything (including drums and mikes) after each song, so that all the audience had a chance to look them in the face.
Title: Re: George's Harmonies
Post by: An Apple Beatle on April 28, 2009, 01:26:34 PM
Quote from: 63
I think FourMiles made some good points. Thing with these close harmonies is that sometimes they're so close, it's hard to tell how many voices are singing. Let alone to tell who is who.

I have found this. Not until I really have had to learn parts have I noticed the distinctions between their voices better. I used to find John & George indistinguishable.. And yes, their close harmonies follow amazing melodic passages. Even though Lennon & McCartney could turn on the scouse accents when necessary, George had the most distinctive natural scouse tone which is maybe why it was favoured more in the mix, in the earlier days of the 'Mersey Sound.'
Title: Re: George's Harmonies
Post by: alexis on April 28, 2009, 02:11:07 PM
Quote from: 568
RoOT0wSiENA ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoOT0wSiENA[/url])

Bingorooney!




Quote from: 568
OMG!!!! Is this the ultimate bingorooney?

oB14Q1J7iqc ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oB14Q1J7iqc[/url])



And here it is with all three voices. These harmonies sound pretty right as far as I can tell on the first few listens ... what do you folks think?

2OAdJKTkHxI ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OAdJKTkHxI[/url])



Hi - Apple and others - what do you think, are these right?
Title: Re: George's Harmonies
Post by: fendertele on April 28, 2009, 05:50:01 PM
So heard to tell where Georges Harmony sits when all three are singing, Paul is the high part most of the time.
 John does cover the low parts when its him and Paul alone, but when George is thrown into it he and John sing at the same pitch from what a can hear or John goes slightly higher than George maybe due to John being the better vocalist and more comfortable than George at a higher range ?
Title: Re: George's Harmonies
Post by: alexis on April 28, 2009, 06:39:16 PM
Quote from: 758
So heard to tell where Georges Harmony sits when all three are singing, Paul is the high part most of the time.
 John does cover the low parts when its him and Paul alone, but when George is thrown into it he and John sing at the same pitch from what a can hear or John goes slightly higher than George maybe due to John being the better vocalist and more comfortable than George at a higher range ?

The youtube guy has George jumping all over the place with his harmonies - starts way down on the E, jumps up a 6th to the C#, then down to the F#, just for starters. He also has him a little higher than John ever goes in the song (except for the solo, of course), up to a D (" ...and what's more...", and "Understand ...", for example).

I agree fendertele, it's so hard to hear George for much of this song. Every time, when I'm straining my ears and brain to the max, that I DO hear him, this youtube guy seems to have it spot on. Also, there's this book with a complete transcription of all the Beatles songs, and though it isn't quite the gospel, I've found it to be pretty reliable, and what's written down there matches this youtube guy's harmonies.

I'm inclined to believe that these are the ones to go with, and certainly nobody we would play for would know the difference, but I'd like to get it right, so if anyone thinks that this youtube guy's Paul/George harmonies aren't what's on the record for "Yes It Is", please let's hear your thoughts!

Thanks!
Title: Re: George's Harmonies
Post by: fendertele on April 28, 2009, 07:22:43 PM
Quote from: 568

The youtube guy has George jumping all over the place with his harmonies - starts way down on the E, jumps up a 6th to the C#, then down to the F#, just for starters. He also has him a little higher than John ever goes in the song (except for the solo, of course), up to a D (" ...and what's more...", and "Understand ...", for example).

I agree fendertele, it's so hard to hear George for much of this song. Every time, when I'm straining my ears and brain to the max, that I DO hear him, this youtube guy seems to have it spot on. Also, there's this book with a complete transcription of all the Beatles songs, and though it isn't quite the gospel, I've found it to be pretty reliable, and what's written down there matches this youtube guy's harmonies.

I'm inclined to believe that these are the ones to go with, and certainly nobody we would play for would know the difference, but I'd like to get it right, so if anyone thinks that this youtube guy's Paul/George harmonies aren't what's on the record for "Yes It Is", please let's hear your thoughts!

Thanks!

Sorry Alexis i wasnt basing it on that last video just in general, im not really to sure tbh, do you think george puts as much thoughti nto his parts as say Paul and John ? or do you think he just tries to find the comfy middle ground and plays it safe ? i think the reason its hard to differentiate from him and john is that he follows Johns Harmonies and occasionaly might veer off to a safe note.
Title: Re: George's Harmonies
Post by: alexis on April 28, 2009, 08:07:18 PM
Quote from: 758

Sorry Alexis i wasnt basing it on that last video just in general, im not really to sure tbh, do you think george puts as much thoughti nto his parts as say Paul and John ? or do you think he just tries to find the comfy middle ground and plays it safe ? i think the reason its hard to differentiate from him and john is that he follows Johns Harmonies and occasionaly might veer off to a safe note.

I wish I knew more about writing harmonies than I do, I think that would give me better insight into your excellent question, fendertele. When I write 3-part harmonies, I find that I sometimes "run out of notes" for the middle singer to sing, getting squeezed between the lower and upper singers. So from that point of view, sometimes I don't see a choice between a comfy middle ground and something more creative ... it's like "whew, I'm glad this note is left over and available!". That upper singer has the entire universe to choose a harmony note from, as long as they can sing that high, I think Paul definitely took advantage of that, from the earliest days.

So, I wonder if there were often more daring choices George could have made for harmonies, or whether he was pretty much constrained by the other guys and had to be satisfied with sloppy seconds (or thirds in this case).

Having said that, I've never imagined a harmony as adventurous as George's on "Yes It Is". Not only is it all over the place with relation to John (starts below, crosses over and goes above, then below again), but he winds up sort of switching "allegiances" between the two other singers. I think what I mean by that is that he starts the song harmonizing with John (a 3rd below John's G#), then moves up to harmonize with Paul (a 3rd below Paul's E - two half tones above John  :-/ ), then drops down to the 5th below John's B note/chord, How crazy is that!

Oh well, back to trying to actually sing that without needing to peck it out at the same time on my keyboard ...(tongue5)
Title: Re: George's Harmonies
Post by: An Apple Beatle on April 29, 2009, 02:21:17 AM
Really good points....The first 2 harmonies are always easier to get right but bring a third and your really thinking on where to resolve with tastefulness. My guess is that it was a distinctive trick honed from Hamburg days which with Mr. Martins trained ear and a few different takes meant they could always augment their parts even sweeter.
Title: Re: George's Harmonies
Post by: alexis on April 29, 2009, 08:11:05 PM
After listening to "Yes It Is" a billion times in the last few days, I find myself wondering whether I even like the harmonies. Wait, don't shoot me please!

What I mean is that though clearly they are a) adventuresome in that they  were not the usual parallel 3rds/4ths/5ths (with maybe only a brief foray to 2nds and 6ths as "transition" or resolving-type notes), and b) technically very skillfully done (duh!) ...  

...I'm not sure that they are necessarily pleasing to my ear when all three voices are put together. There is just a bit too much dissonance for me. FWIW, I think it's mainly the "A" and "B" sung together in the verse - first during the F#m chord ("if you wear red to-NIGHT"), then as part of the D chord ("remember what I said to-NIGHT).

Does anyone know if after this song they ever deviated as much from the standard "Beatle voicings" for their harmonies?

Thanks!

Signed,

Tone Deaf

Title: Re: George's Harmonies
Post by: Pegasus on May 06, 2009, 06:22:23 PM
one point to consider here is George had a fine SUPPORTING voice....

John had an ARROGANT Confident voice....tending towards the LOWER range (ie: "If I Fell" etc) - shades of Don Everly in the Everlys sound.


Paul had the Higher more "Singalong" voice tho' also a confident voice...handling the High Harmony...("If I Fell" etc)....leaning towards Phil Everly's style...

George...who kept more of his native accent when singing and whose voice Lacked Arrogance ...."Filled in" the Middle range perfectly to create an Overall "Unified sound" when the three sing together...."Yes it is" , "Tell Me Why","Nowhere Man"  ....even years later "Because" etc...

"Baby's in Black" is just Lennon-McCartney....

while "You Really Got A Hold On Me" gives an example of Lennon-Harrison ONLY

George's voice  was often used as a key third voice to EMPHASISE certain passeges....on "She Loves You" for example...
John-Paul :"You think you lost your love..." John-Paul-George "...Well I saw Her Yesterday-i-ay..." etc

George was also utilised as an extra falsetto voice on occasions too....i.e. the ending of "Paperback Writer"


Tony Hicks mostly  did likewise for The Hollies taking the middle vocal range between  the voices of Allan Clarke & Graham Nash / Terry Sylvester ....to create a "unified vocal sound"
(Listen to: "Stewball" 1966  / "Be With You" 1976 )
Title: Re: George's Harmonies
Post by: Pegasus on May 06, 2009, 06:32:38 PM
I would add that the middle harmony singer tends to Support the Lead vocalist....like a "vocal shadow"....that fills out the sound... while the High Harmony singer soars above the other two...

when it's just two singers, say Don & Phil Everly...or Simon & Garfunkel...you get a clear division of voices....add a third voice....Hollies...CSN....America...Bread etc.....and you get an "overall unified vocal  sound"

In The Beatles they played about with their vocal formula....George would support John ("You Really Got A Hold...")  ...or sing the supporting or counter vocal lines with Paul ("Twist & Shout", "Help !") ....or join with John to support Paul ("Hello Goodbye")
Title: Re: George's Harmonies
Post by: alexis on May 06, 2009, 08:07:52 PM
Quote from: 2092
one point to consider here is George had a fine SUPPORTING voice....

John had an ARROGANT Confident voice....tending towards the LOWER range (ie: "If I Fell" etc) - shades of Don Everly in the Everlys sound.


Paul had the Higher more "Singalong" voice tho' also a confident voice...handling the High Harmony...("If I Fell" etc)....leaning towards Phil Everly's style...

George...who kept more of his native accent when singing and whose voice Lacked Arrogance ...."Filled in" the Middle range perfectly to create an Overall "Unified sound" when the three sing together...."Yes it is" , "Tell Me Why","Nowhere Man"  ....even years later "Because" etc...

"Baby's in Black" is just Lennon-McCartney....

while "You Really Got A Hold On Me" gives an example of Lennon-Harrison ONLY

George's voice  was often used as a key third voice to EMPHASISE certain passeges....on "She Loves You" for example...
John-Paul :"You think you lost your love..." John-Paul-George "...Well I saw Her Yesterday-i-ay..." etc

George was also utilised as an extra falsetto voice on occasions too....i.e. the ending of "Paperback Writer"


Tony Hicks mostly  did likewise for The Hollies taking the middle vocal range between  the voices of Allan Clarke & Graham Nash / Terry Sylvester ....to create a "unified vocal sound"
(Listen to: "Stewball" 1966  / "Be With You" 1976 )

Pegasus, welcome to the forum, and I have to say, these are two of the finest first posts I've seen in any forum!

I had absolutely NO idea that it was George below John on "You Really Got a Hold On Me", that little nugget made my day - thank you!!

I might just add an example of a George and Paul harmony duet (fairly rare as well) - "Don't You Ever Change" on the BBC tapes.

Welcome, and thanks again!
Title: Re: George's Harmonies
Post by: An Apple Beatle on May 06, 2009, 08:37:06 PM
Nice stuff guys. :)
The leap from 2 to 3 harmonies is a critical one for sure but even getting 2 harmonies to lock in to the likes of Simon & Garfunkel takes great skill. Theres not many duo male vocal groups out there nowadays. I'm learning Bob & Earl Harlem Shuffle (topline) right as we speak as it goes. Classic! :)
Title: Re: George's Harmonies
Post by: Pegasus on May 07, 2009, 11:22:23 AM
Yeah while most people look to instrumental abilities, the ART of vocals & Vocal Harmonising is often overlooked !

For Example John & Paul COULD "Impersonate" each other....!

listen to the backing vocals on "Woman"....John makes it sound very "McCartney-ish" ....!

On the other hand on Wings "Let Me Roll it" Paul does a "Lennon style" Vocal....!

Paul spoke of how when they came to do The Beatles version of "Real Love" John's "Rough Guide vocal for the demo" was NOT understandably that strong....NEVER being intended for issue by john.

Paul thus did his "John voice"  which was then mixed in  together with John's opriginal demo  Guide  Lead vocal...thus what we get is infact "Lennon-McCartney" as "John Lennon" singing the lead...!

Paul, George, Ringo...and very probably Producer Jeff Lynne (of ELO /The Move/ The Idle Race fame) then added the backing vocals...

One very important point on Beatles harmonies is that while John & Paul "Sounded American" when they sang....George always sounded "British" indeed "Liverpudlian"  ...thus the combined Beatles harmonies have an "American/British" sound...a transatlantic sound that is so very appealing...

Likewise Crosby, Stills & Nash...."Yankee" Crosby...."Southern boy" Stills...and "Britisher" Nash...and on occasions also "Canadian" Young ! - thus a real mixture of Accented vocals

Speaking of Simon & Garfunkel...On the album "Bridge Over Troubled Water" is a few interesting points....

"Baby Driver" is actually "Simon & Simon" - Artie Garfunkel was still delayed filming "Catch-22" down in Mexico....thus Paul Simon handled ALL the vocal parts himself....even adding a "Garfunkel style" :  "Ba-Ba-Ba-Ba..." vocal line to sound just like his partner in song !  

This also explains "The ONLY Living Boy in New York" - where Paul Simon is so fed up awaiting Garfunkel's delayed return....holding up recording of the album... he duly WROTE A SONG ABOUT IT...!

Hence: "Tom get your plane right on time....I know your part'll go fine...fly down to Mexico..."

they were originally known as "Tom & Jerry" early on....Artie was "Tom" !

Garfunkel only arrived after the basic song was complete....tho' he adds a fitting glorious high harmony of "Aaaahhhh..." and only sings one later  Dubbed on  line...an ethereal:  "Here I am...." - Garfunkel's supreme Glistening  Harmony lines gliding majestically  high above Paul Simon's already finished so utterly down to Earth world weary recitation of this "down" yet so compelling song...while once more it's "Simon & Simon" who  are the duet voices on the bridge duet section:

"Half of the Time we're gone..."

I think that Simon & Grafunkel...tho' in fact each recorded   at different times...song "The Only Living Boy in New York"  is one of the most moving & memorable tracks on the finished album....tho' it tellingly points towards the break up of the famous Duo...
Title: Re: George's Harmonies
Post by: An Apple Beatle on May 07, 2009, 01:03:15 PM
Quote from: 568






Hi - Apple and others - what do you think, are these right?

HI Alexis, sorry for not replying sooner.....I don't have great knowledge on 'Yes It Is' to be able to distinguish if your all doing them right. Sounds great though. nice timbre. ;)
Title: Re: George's Harmonies
Post by: alexis on May 07, 2009, 06:38:07 PM
Quote from: 15

HI Alexis, sorry for not replying sooner.....I don't have great knowledge on 'Yes It Is' to be able to distinguish if your all doing them right. Sounds great though. nice timbre. ;)

Hi there Apple - sorry, I wish I could take credit, but that wasn't me on the youtube doing those harmonies.

Sounds a little Autotuned, no?
Title: Re: George's Harmonies
Post by: harihead on May 08, 2009, 03:57:19 AM
Hi, Pegasus! I really enjoyed your posts. Thanks so much for joining in!

I've always enjoyed George's Liverpudlian drawl sneaking into a Beatles song, but I hadn't really thought of this before:

Quote
Likewise Crosby, Stills & Nash...."Yankee" Crosby...."Southern boy" Stills...and "Britisher" Nash...and on occasions also "Canadian" Young ! - thus a real mixture of Accented vocals
Hmm, two of my favorite bands. I'm obviously a sucker for accents!

And harmony. I love harmony. Thanks for the discussion, everyone!
Title: Re: George's Harmonies
Post by: walrus_21 on May 26, 2009, 07:48:45 PM
What a cool topic.  Thanks to everyone who knows these things for sharing.  I play guitar and sing, but I'm not trained.  
Title: Re: George's Harmonies
Post by: An Apple Beatle on June 01, 2009, 12:57:31 AM
Quote from: 789
  I play guitar and sing, but I'm not trained.  

Worked for The Beatles ;) heheh
Title: Re: George's Harmonies
Post by: Nelson_Wilbury on July 13, 2009, 02:40:05 AM
Hi, I'm new here. I'm from Argentina, home of the Blue Meanies, sorry for my english.

I love this kind of discussion!!!

I'd like to give my experience in this theme. I'm a "George" in a Beatles Tribute Band and a George Tribute Band.

It's true that the George's parts on the harmonies are very low in the mixes and were really rare and hard to sing. The example of "I'll get you" is good. But this no mean that George Martin hide his voice in the mix, remember that in 1963 the Beatles recorded "live" in the studio. Probably the 3 sang in 1 mic and the John and Paul voices were strongest that George's.

"Because" is other with a very difficult part 'cos the George's part is the less evident.

One more time, sorry if I make a mistake, tell me and I try to correct it.

See you
Title: Re: George's Harmonies
Post by: alexis on July 13, 2009, 03:21:27 AM
Hi Nelson - Welcome!!! I think that is so cool that you are in a Beatles tribute band  :D

On "I'll Get You" that you mention ... I have worked through the George harmony in the middle eight/break ("Well there's gonna be a time ..."), I love it! Do you hear George in the verse too ("Imagine I'm in love with you ...")? I don't hear one, but if you do, please let me know (somehow?  ???) where!

I love picking out George harmonies. I think you have a good point, if they were all using one mic, maybe his voice was the softest.

What songs do you sing George on? Do you have a youtube or other site we could listen too?

Gracias!
Title: Re: George's Harmonies
Post by: Nelson_Wilbury on July 13, 2009, 03:33:05 PM
HI!
In "I'll get you" only John and sometimes Paul sing in the verse ("Imagine I'm in love with you..."). George only join them in the middle eight.
I sing almost all the George's songs with The Beatles, but ussually made a few in the gigs.
Do you want to know a secret?, Roll over Beethoven, Everybody's trying to be my baby, If I needed someone, Something
But I remember to do I need you, Taxman, While my guitar gently weeps, Here comes the sun, etc
With the other band we made solo material and beatles.
Look here
Cheer Down - Harrisongs - George Harrison Tribute (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0mojabaqQQ&feature=channel_page#lq-hq)
P2 Vatican Blues - Harrisongs - The Cavern Club - Parte 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIhYKaxEgiY&feature=channel_page#lq-lq2-hq)
Cloud 9 - Harrisongs - The Cavern Club - Parte 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghkY_BhRk6s&feature=channel_page#lq-lq2-hq)
Title: Re: George's Harmonies
Post by: Nelson_Wilbury on July 21, 2009, 03:25:57 PM
I was thinking in this theme very much last days.

I'll add other points over the George's work.

Not always he took the low part of the harmonies, sometimes is in the middle (This boy, I feel fine)

When Paul is the lead, he is the higher in the "asnwering harmonies" (The night before, I'm down)

I sang "rare" notes (Last "yeah" in the intro and final of "She loves you" is a 6th) Very hard to sing without follow to John.

I think that sometimes is hard to listen his voice because when you sing, some notes sound louder that others. Remember that George's parts use to move over the scale in differents ways. Understand? (Sorry for my english again and again and again!!!)