A treasury and a place to meet people of all ages with various interests from all over the World
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

PLEASE READ OUR FORUM RULES HERE

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4

Author Topic: Classic 60's songs: White Rabbit  (Read 2691 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Hombre_de_ningun_lugar

  • A Thousand Pages
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 2062
Re: Classic 60's songs: White Rabbit
« Reply #40 on: March 23, 2017, 04:16:27 AM »

I'm aware of wealth inequality in this world.  I'm also aware of the generous wealthy who contribute hundreds of millions of dollars each to medical centers.  Perhaps you should study those figures.  Your view of humanity might improve.

Man, noone who owns hundreds of millons can be considered a generous person, because noone can be that important nor do the required effort to deserve such fortune. Actually that person is not contributing his richness to help others, but humanity is donating the world's richness to him.

I believe individual people can do great actions. But the humanity as a whole has been a failure, at least until now.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 04:18:25 AM by Hombre_de_ningun_lugar »
Logged
"Love is old, love is new; love is all, love is you."

Hello Goodbye

  • Global Moderator
  • Sun King
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14808
Re: Classic 60's songs: White Rabbit
« Reply #41 on: March 23, 2017, 04:29:17 AM »

Again, I don't share your dismal outlook, Andres.  And I don't subscribe to your view on generosity on the part of philanthropists.  I hope you eventually come to understand what motivates such people to unselfishly give of their wealth.
Logged
I can stay till it's time to go

Hombre_de_ningun_lugar

  • A Thousand Pages
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 2062
Re: Classic 60's songs: White Rabbit
« Reply #42 on: March 23, 2017, 04:35:07 AM »

And I hope you eventually come to understand what motivates such parasites to selfishly take that undeserved wealth.
Logged
"Love is old, love is new; love is all, love is you."

Hello Goodbye

  • Global Moderator
  • Sun King
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14808
Re: Classic 60's songs: White Rabbit
« Reply #43 on: March 23, 2017, 06:30:25 PM »

Now you have denigrated me personally having recently made very generous contributions to two major medical centers in my area naming my specialty's clinical facilities in those hospitals.
Logged
I can stay till it's time to go

zipp

  • A Thousand Pages
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 1083
Re: Classic 60's songs: White Rabbit
« Reply #44 on: March 23, 2017, 09:09:45 PM »

By the way, I'm not defending my generation because I don't feel represented by people of my age.


I'm defending MY generation.

But I'm not trying to cause a big sensation.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=594WLzzb3JI" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=594WLzzb3JI</a>


Logged

Hombre_de_ningun_lugar

  • A Thousand Pages
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 2062
Re: Classic 60's songs: White Rabbit
« Reply #45 on: March 23, 2017, 09:55:24 PM »

Now you have denigrated me personally having recently made very generous contributions to two major medical centers in my area naming my specialty's clinical facilities in those hospitals.

Then I guess you didn't understand anything what I've said, unless you're one of those multi-millionaires who are devouring the world.

I thought there was no need to say that I think it is good that people contribute in honorable causes, regardless how much money they own. So congratulations, well done, but that's not the point. The point is that someone who owns hundreds of millons of dollars is not a generous person, no matter how much money he gives, because that fortune does not represent an effort from himself, it was an effort from exploited working class people.

I'm not against private property, I'm against unfair disproportion. People should be retributed according to their capability and effort employed on their activity. But noone can be capable enough nor do sufficient effort to deserve those hundreds of millons of dollars.

This is not about rich people vs. poor people; this is about awfully rich people vs. the rest of the world.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 10:53:54 PM by Hombre_de_ningun_lugar »
Logged
"Love is old, love is new; love is all, love is you."

Hombre_de_ningun_lugar

  • A Thousand Pages
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 2062
Re: Classic 60's songs: White Rabbit
« Reply #46 on: March 23, 2017, 10:07:46 PM »

I'm defending MY generation.

But I'm not trying to cause a big sensation.

Hey, I even feel closer to YOUR generation than MY generation. But that won't stop me to mark some mistakes from that generation. But my idea is no putting your generation down, since noone is perfect. My idea is trying to understand what went wrong, why those great convictions were not able to change the world. The previous older generation is already gone, but the world is still the same or even worse.
Logged
"Love is old, love is new; love is all, love is you."

Hello Goodbye

  • Global Moderator
  • Sun King
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14808
Re: Classic 60's songs: White Rabbit
« Reply #47 on: March 23, 2017, 11:36:35 PM »

Then I guess you didn't understand anything what I've said, unless you're one of those multi-millionaires who are devouring the world.

Please look back to what I said that precipitated your remarks.  I said that "I'm also aware of the generous wealthy who contribute hundreds of millions of dollars each to medical centers.  Perhaps you should study those figures.  Your view of humanity might improve."  I was very specific about a particular form of philanthropy.


I thought there was no need to say that I think it is good that people contribute in honorable causes, regardless how much money they own.

My remark, stated above, applies here too.  But you immediately classified them as "parasites."  You dishonored many philanthropists who have improved healthcare facilities in this and in other counties.
Logged
I can stay till it's time to go

Hombre_de_ningun_lugar

  • A Thousand Pages
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 2062
Re: Classic 60's songs: White Rabbit
« Reply #48 on: March 24, 2017, 12:59:35 AM »

I didn't say that philanthropists are parasites. I said that those people who gain hundreds of millions of dollars from the effort of exploited working class people are parasites. And I don't think that such people can be called as philanthropists, no matter how much money they give, because it's easy for them to give what wasn't the result of their own effort. Indeed, they are giving what they don't need. Sure, that money will be helpful for the cause, but the damage they're doing to the world is much bigger.

Anyway, I don't expect you to agree with me. We can have different opinions and points of view about how the world is turning.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 01:26:27 AM by Hombre_de_ningun_lugar »
Logged
"Love is old, love is new; love is all, love is you."

Hombre_de_ningun_lugar

  • A Thousand Pages
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 2062
Re: Classic 60's songs: White Rabbit
« Reply #49 on: March 24, 2017, 02:12:23 AM »

HG, if you want to convince me, please don't tell me about the supposed good actions of those multi-millionaires. Tell me how they gained those hundreds of millions of dollars; show me that they didn't make their fortune by exploiting working class people; try to make me understand that the global system that allowed them to become disproportionally rich is not a cause of poverty and hunger in the world.

The end does not justify the means. Improving healthcare facilities should not be paid with the hunger of thousands people.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 10:24:38 AM by Hombre_de_ningun_lugar »
Logged
"Love is old, love is new; love is all, love is you."

zipp

  • A Thousand Pages
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 1083
Re: Classic 60's songs: White Rabbit
« Reply #50 on: March 24, 2017, 05:15:09 PM »

Hey, I even feel closer to YOUR generation than MY generation. But that won't stop me to mark some mistakes from that generation. But my idea is no putting your generation down, since noone is perfect. My idea is trying to understand what went wrong, why those great convictions were not able to change the world. The previous older generation is already gone, but the world is still the same or even worse.

My grandfather fought in the First World War : 38 million dead.

My father fought in the Second World War : 72 million dead.

My generation was destined to fight in the Third World War which would probably have been a nuclear holocaust.

We stated clearly we wanted peace not war. You call that a failure?
Logged

Hombre_de_ningun_lugar

  • A Thousand Pages
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 2062
Re: Classic 60's songs: White Rabbit
« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2017, 07:00:42 PM »

My grandfather fought in the First World War : 38 million dead.

My father fought in the Second World War : 72 million dead.

My generation was destined to fight in the Third World War which would probably have been a nuclear holocaust.

We stated clearly we wanted peace not war. You call that a failure?

You have a point there. And I don't pretend to deny the influence of your generation. But I think noone wanted a nuclear war, because that would have been useless. Wars exist to keep working the enrichment machine of powerful people. Now isolated wars still exist, but powerful people have other weapons to control the world. They promote economic systems that go against working class people, reducing salaries and benefits, especially in third world countries. And they oppose to governments which don't let them exploit natural resources. Peace will still be a dream if hunger is still a reality.
Logged
"Love is old, love is new; love is all, love is you."

Hello Goodbye

  • Global Moderator
  • Sun King
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14808
Re: Classic 60's songs: White Rabbit
« Reply #52 on: March 24, 2017, 10:40:51 PM »

HG, if you want to convince me, please don't tell me about the supposed good actions of those multi-millionaires.

I don't feel the need to convince you of anything.  In my profession we have taken an oath to use our skills and treat patients properly regardless of their ability to pay.  That's why we go on cleft palate missions; yes, even to your part of the world.  Medical centers in this country are very careful when it comes to accepting donations and avoid contributors of dubious reputation.

You prefer to have the last word, so go ahead and take the opportunity.  As I said, I prefer to have discussions on specifics and not on intangibles.  I was specifically talking about the healing profession and not class struggle.
Logged
I can stay till it's time to go

Hombre_de_ningun_lugar

  • A Thousand Pages
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 2062
Re: Classic 60's songs: White Rabbit
« Reply #53 on: March 25, 2017, 02:20:14 AM »

I don't feel the need to convince you of anything.  In my profession we have taken an oath to use our skills and treat patients properly regardless of their ability to pay.  That's why we go on cleft palate missions; yes, even to your part of the world.  Medical centers in this country are very careful when it comes to accepting donations and avoid contributors of dubious reputation.

You prefer to have the last word, so go ahead and take the opportunity.  As I said, I prefer to have discussions on specifics and not on intangibles.  I was specifically talking about the healing profession and not class struggle.

I don't feel the need to have the last word, HG. This is not about winning or losing a discussion, I don't care about that. I just wanted to talk about this and see if we can find a common point; but that has been very difficult because you continuously missed the point; or perhaps I wasn't able to be clear with my words. I feel you're continuously taking a defensive position and that's a shame, because I don't mean to be offensive. I may sound nasty when I use some words, but that's because I'm against a highly unfair situation, which make me think that humanity as a whole is failing. I'm not against you nor your profession, so I don't know what's perturbing you about my words.

With regard to donations, I just think you gave a fake example of philanthropy. Of course it is good and positive a donation of hundreds of millions of dollars to improve healthcare facilities, I'm not discussing that. My point was not foccussed on the result of that donation but on the origin of that donation. I'm not talking about the reputation of contributors, because I don't care about their real intentions; they may do that to satisfy their ego, clean their conscience, or just make a good action with no other interest. The specific and not intangible fact is that one person is able to decide what to do with hundreds of millions of dollars. That's too much power in just one person's hands; and if that power could be used for good causes, it could also be used for evil purposes. Besides, if one person thinks that he deserves to own such an enormous fortune, then that person must believe that he's a superior human being, regardless what he'll do with that money.

What I'm trying to say is that the world does not need the eventual generosity of people who live to accumulate more and more wealth. The world needs a fairer distribution of wealth, according to each one's capability and effort. The world needs more equality in terms of opportunities, so that the destiny of one person will not depend on his/her origin but on his/her own effort. But that objective will be farer away if we allow or ignore that disproportionate accumulation of wealth.

I thank you for trying to improve my view of humanity. But I actually believe that most people have good intentions and try to do good actions according to their possibilities. My view of humanity is bad for another reason: I think humanity is being fooled by few powerful people whose objective is dominate the world.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 02:54:49 AM by Hombre_de_ningun_lugar »
Logged
"Love is old, love is new; love is all, love is you."

Hello Goodbye

  • Global Moderator
  • Sun King
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14808
Re: Classic 60's songs: White Rabbit
« Reply #54 on: March 25, 2017, 10:47:14 PM »

I don't feel the need to have the last word, HG. This is not about winning or losing a discussion, I don't care about that. I just wanted to talk about this and see if we can find a common point; but that has been very difficult because you continuously missed the point; or perhaps I wasn't able to be clear with my words. I feel you're continuously taking a defensive position and that's a shame, because I don't mean to be offensive. I may sound nasty when I use some words, but that's because I'm against a highly unfair situation, which make me think that humanity as a whole is failing. I'm not against you nor your profession, so I don't know what's perturbing you about my words.

You might not mean to be offensive, but you were; very much so.  Read back to what you said.  You nearly included me as someone you term a "parasite."  All I've done was to express my appreciation to institutions who have trained me to do what I do and who have helped me manage my patients.

With regard to donations, I just think you gave a fake example of philanthropy. Of course it is good and positive a donation of hundreds of millions of dollars to improve healthcare facilities, I'm not discussing that. My point was not foccussed on the result of that donation but on the origin of that donation. I'm not talking about the reputation of contributors, because I don't care about their real intentions; they may do that to satisfy their ego, clean their conscience, or just make a good action with no other interest. The specific and not intangible fact is that one person is able to decide what to do with hundreds of millions of dollars. That's too much power in just one person's hands; and if that power could be used for good causes, it could also be used for evil purposes. Besides, if one person thinks that he deserves to own such an enormous fortune, then that person must believe that he's a superior human being, regardless what he'll do with that money.

These are not fake philanthropists by any definition.  I can provide a list of names if you'd like.  I don't think you will find anyone selfish, anyone who is satisfying their ego, anyone who is trying to cleanse a guilty conscience or anyone exploitative of employees in their corporations in any way.  They all have strong personal reasons to help support medical institutions and are worthy of admiration not deprecation.

What I'm trying to say is that the world does not need the eventual generosity of people who live to accumulate more and more wealth. The world needs a fairer distribution of wealth, according to each one's capability and effort. The world needs more equality in terms of opportunities, so that the destiny of one person will not depend on his/her origin but on his/her own effort. But that objective will be farer away if we allow or ignore that disproportionate accumulation of wealth.

I thank you for trying to improve my view of humanity. But I actually believe that most people have good intentions and try to do good actions according to their possibilities. My view of humanity is bad for another reason: I think humanity is being fooled by few powerful people whose objective is dominate the world.

Perhaps I'm naïve, but that's a good trait in a doctor.  I have enjoyed the appreciation shown me by the children I've treated, their families and the hospital workers who supported us in those countries in your part of the world.  Our missions are funded by those very same philanthropic corporations and individuals.  I would never have imagined that there could be anyone harboring such skepticism about the intent of any one of us involved in such endeavors.  I guess I was wrong.  But I won't let it deter me from going again whenever I'm called.
Logged
I can stay till it's time to go

Hombre_de_ningun_lugar

  • A Thousand Pages
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 2062
Re: Classic 60's songs: White Rabbit
« Reply #55 on: March 26, 2017, 12:04:19 AM »

You nearly included me as someone you term a "parasite."

This is what I don't understand. I never talked about you nor your activity when I used that term. I was clearly talking about people who gain a huge amount of money with very little effort. Money does not come from the air, so the required effort should have been done by someone else. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but I think "parasite" is a correct term to describe such people.

These are not fake philanthropists by any definition.  I can provide a list of names if you'd like.  I don't think you will find anyone selfish, anyone who is satisfying their ego, anyone who is trying to cleanse a guilty conscience or anyone exploitative of employees in their corporations in any way.  They all have strong personal reasons to help support medical institutions and are worthy of admiration not deprecation.

Again, I'm not against the helpful contribution of those multi-millionaires. I'm just saying that the world would be a much fairer place if such people were not able to accumulate so much wealth so easily. In that case, the help of such people wouldn't be required because the wealth would be distributed much better.

That's why I think their attitude is contradictory, because they may have good intentions when they give a donation, but they are acting as selfish people from the fact that they need to accumulate such a disproportionate fortune. Give me a list if you want to, but I would only admire them if they accept to stop taking advantage of an unfair economic system.

Perhaps I'm naïve, but that's a good trait in a doctor.  I have enjoyed the appreciation shown me by the children I've treated, their families and the hospital workers who supported us in those countries in your part of the world.  Our missions are funded by those very same philanthropic corporations and individuals.  I would never have imagined that there could be anyone harboring such skepticism about the intent of any one of us involved in such endeavors.  I guess I was wrong.  But I won't let it deter me from going again whenever I'm called.

And what you're telling here is certainly admirable. But then again, that was not the original point of our discussion.

Remember, I had told you that I think humanity is going wrong because of the highly disproportionate distribution of wealth. And you gave me an example of generosity from multi-millionaires. If you were trying to show me that many people have good intentions, I tell you that I agree with you. But if you were trying to show me that the existence of such multi-millionaires can be positive, I'm on the opposite side. Honorable causes should not depend on the capricious generosity of few privileged people; those causes should be supported by the contribution of each member of the community.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 12:14:26 AM by Hombre_de_ningun_lugar »
Logged
"Love is old, love is new; love is all, love is you."

In My Life

  • Global Moderator
  • That Means a Lot
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 6925
Re: Classic 60's songs: White Rabbit
« Reply #56 on: March 26, 2017, 02:39:11 AM »

I shudder to think of what my life would be like right now without the top-notch medical facility that exists within driving distance from my family. I know it would not be the cutting edge place it is without the generosity of donors. So I feel nothing but gratitude to such people.
Logged
Kelley

In my life I've loved them all

Hombre_de_ningun_lugar

  • A Thousand Pages
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 2062
Re: Classic 60's songs: White Rabbit
« Reply #57 on: March 26, 2017, 03:22:09 AM »

I shudder to think of what my life would be like right now without the top-notch medical facility that exists within driving distance from my family. I know it would not be the cutting edge place it is without the generosity of donors. So I feel nothing but gratitude to such people.

But still that's not the point of the discussion. In the unfair world we're living, if there's no alternative, those donations are necessary and must be welcome. But it would be much better to live in a world where the existence of those medical facilities does not depend on the whimsical generosity of few privileged people. At the end of the day, such people are giving a solution to a problem they are generating.

Anyway, I suppose I should not be too hard and reduce the culpability to absurdly rich people. That would be an easy excuse. I think we all as part of the humanity are guilty for allowing or ignoring such disproportionate accumulation of wealth.
Logged
"Love is old, love is new; love is all, love is you."

In My Life

  • Global Moderator
  • That Means a Lot
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 6925
Re: Classic 60's songs: White Rabbit
« Reply #58 on: March 26, 2017, 05:22:01 AM »

But still that's not the point of the discussion.

I know it's not the point you've been making. It's a point that I wanted to make. So I did.
Logged
Kelley

In my life I've loved them all

Hombre_de_ningun_lugar

  • A Thousand Pages
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 2062
Re: Classic 60's songs: White Rabbit
« Reply #59 on: March 26, 2017, 12:49:56 PM »

I know it's not the point you've been making. It's a point that I wanted to make. So I did.

And I respect that. But I'd also like to know your opinion, not specifically on such donors, but on the wealth distribution in the world. That's the original point I was trying to make.
Logged
"Love is old, love is new; love is all, love is you."
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4
 

Page created in 1.681 seconds with 26 queries.