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Other forums => Current Affairs => Topic started by: Sondra on October 18, 2007, 02:29:41 AM

Title: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on October 18, 2007, 02:29:41 AM
I have to tell you that anytime I seem to go to a site that involves people from other countries it is INEVITABLE that someone will start making really rude anti-American comments and think it's okay. I mean, I go to YouTube to watch a Blur video and people, mostly from the UK, are commenting on how dumb Americans are or how fat Americans are or how they musn't like a song/movie/whatever because they're too stupid to get it and so on. I go to IMDB to read about a movie and I see the same thing. The expression I cannot stand the most is when they start with, "You Americans..." It's extremely offensive and filled with disdain.
I find it hard to understand how some people can generalize us so easily and harbor such hatred for people they have never met. I think it shows such ignorance and intolerance. I really have to work hard not to start feeling anti something myself because of these kinds of comments. I mean, obviously I know there are issues with our country, but the comments made go beyond the political and they do nothing to provoke intelligent discussion in any way. It's usually about personality and I really don't know how you can assume we all have the same personality. Fat, dumb, ignorant, low taste, low intelligence, overly sensitive, etc. This is what I see all the time. It's just pure hatred.
And do not think for a second this is because of Bush. I was watching an old Doors interview from the sixties and they were asked how the European audience differed from the American audiences. The said they liked it when they were political and they particularly cheered when anything Anti-American was said. No matter what it was. So this blind hatred has been going on forever. Sheep.
Personally, it sounds to me that these people suffer from some sort of inferiority complex and putting down an ENTIRE nation of over 300 million people makes them feel better. That's my assessment at the moment. I think people think it's okay to put down Americans. Like somehow we deserve it and should just take it. I really just want to just say f*** off. Take your half assed theories and f*** off. Not that I would ever say that though. I mean, I'm sure these are intelligent people commenting on these boards and who am I to question their great insight? After all, I'm just some American.  ::)
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: pc31 on October 18, 2007, 02:56:17 AM
damn you got fire inside you woman!!!i have always admired the way you speak your mind....where were you when i was swingle??????i think we get a bad rap because our fair nation was started with revolution and it has been working....america rose to a world power rapidly....we do have more freedom than most countries.....you have some that curse our systems milking it for all its worth too...do you know we pay people to immagrate here???do you know there are over 20 million illegal citizens here????some of the hate maybe deserved but alot is jealousy....let me say i am proud to be an american...and i enjoy the circus.....
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Klang on October 18, 2007, 03:11:56 AM

I just laugh.

 :D

Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on October 18, 2007, 03:55:40 AM
Quote from: 843
I just laugh.

 :D


I used to find it amusing at first, but not so much anymore. It's nothing but blind hatred at this point. It's as if these people are indoctrinated from birth to hate Americans. There's such disgust in the comments I've read over the years. It's disturbing. Again, I'm not talking about our government or our policies. People have a right to be angry about things that concern the welfare of others. I'm talking about us as people. There is genuine disgust for us as people and I think it's wrong. As I think it is wrong to hate anyone based solely on race, nationality, or religious affiliation.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Mairi on October 18, 2007, 11:21:00 AM
I agree with what you said. People may put down Americans because they are secretly jealous of the power that the USA holds in the world. It also probably doesn't help that the media portrays the American image of being rude and obnoxious. I admit to a little Anti-American sentitments at times but for the most part I think that the label put on them by the media is stupid. Most are portrayed as backward hicks who are against change, but really that's only a small percentage.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Mairi on October 18, 2007, 11:21:50 AM
Also: Scotland is the second fattest country in the world after the United States.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: An Apple Beatle on October 18, 2007, 02:03:58 PM
Fair play to your views...I don't hate Americans...I secretly fear that America's actions may cause Armageddon though. Anyone who has children would probably deep down bear that same fear. Thats why I havn't actually had children yet....Feelings become mixed and come out in different ways.
I admit to begrudging the fact America's involvement in WW2 was a bit late and at a great cost to Britain...Thats a power struggle though by power hungry politicians...not peace-loving individuals. :o

On another note....I'm ashamed that Britain is trying to get rights to territory in the South Pole....More colonial power hungriness......Power obsessed is a nation all of it's own.


Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: An Apple Beatle on October 18, 2007, 02:12:05 PM
Quote from: 216

I used to find it amusing at first, but not so much anymore. It's nothing but blind hatred at this point. It's as if these people are indoctrinated from birth to hate Americans. There's such disgust in the comments I've read over the years. It's disturbing. Again, I'm not talking about our government or our policies. People have a right to be angry about things that concern the welfare of others. I'm talking about us as people. There is genuine disgust for us as people and I think it's wrong. As I think it is wrong to hate anyone based solely on race, nationality, or religious affiliation.

I agree but I am sure disturbing comments can be found from all nations. I think your alright Sandra as it goes.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Klang on October 18, 2007, 03:23:47 PM

I suppose I often laugh to keep from crying. Look, the people of the USA are so diverse in every way imagineable, it might stand as a microcosmic representation of the entire world itself. That's why we squabble so much among ourselves, I guess. The foreign policy that the government implements doesn't reflect the wishes of anyone that I know, and the elections are looking like they're rigged anyway. So who really is in charge here? All the little guy can do is complain and hope for change, which is not a very dynamic tactic but what else is there, short of mass insurrection (which will never happen)?

<scratches head>

 :-/

Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: blackmath on October 18, 2007, 04:19:13 PM
yeah, and some people think that muslims are terrorists. ::) anyone who judges someone by their nationality or religion is uncultured. true story.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Flaming Pie in the Sky on October 18, 2007, 06:47:15 PM
Quote from: 216
It's as if these people are indoctrinated from birth to hate Americans.

Some of them really are.

Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Joost on October 18, 2007, 07:11:03 PM
Quote from: 216
I mean, I go to YouTube to watch a Blur video and people, mostly from the UK, are commenting on how dumb Americans are or how fat Americans are or how they musn't like a song/movie/whatever because they're too stupid to get it and so on.

Sandra, take these comments and replace "Americans" with "Jews". Or "African Americans". Or "Latinos". What do you get then? Racist comments. Now put the word "American" back in there. What are they now? Still racist comments. Generalizing the entire population of a particular country in an overtly negative way, that's simply what we call racism.

This means you have every right to feel offended by these comments. But it also means that you should realize that people that make such comments are a dumb, ignorant minority and are not worth your energy.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Bobber on October 18, 2007, 07:31:19 PM
Generalisation. Everybody in the world thinks that everybody in The Netherlands is smoking pot every day.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Whoever on October 18, 2007, 09:23:21 PM
Whatever hate or praise we get for being whatever nationality we are comes from our past actions as a nation. If you live in a successful country no doubt you've got there from creating some kind of Empire, the praisers benefit from the Empire and the haters don't benefit from the Empire. That's a generalisation on a generalisation. In a way. I think.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: pc31 on October 19, 2007, 12:13:29 AM
Quote from: 63
Generalisation. Everybody in the world thinks that everybody in The Netherlands is smoking pot every day.
you mean that's a lie?????next you'll be telling me there is no santa claus!!!!
i love this comment...the praisers benefit from the Empire and the haters don't benefit from the Empire. That's a generalisation on a generalisation.
true wisdom there who....
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on October 19, 2007, 01:00:57 AM
Quote from: 56

Sandra, take these comments and replace "Americans" with "Jews". Or "African Americans". Or "Latinos". What do you get then? Racist comments. Now put the word "American" back in there. What are they now? Still racist comments. Generalizing the entire population of a particular country in an overtly negative way, that's simply what we call racism.

This means you have every right to feel offended by these comments. But it also means that you should realize that people that make such comments are a dumb, ignorant minority and are not worth your energy.


This is true, but I feel like if all I'm doing is trying to enjoy and discuss a Blur video or watch a clip a Sacha Baron Cohen I really don't need to read 25 comments about how stupid and fat Americans are. I really don't see people attacking let's say the French or the Italians. It's always: you Americans. And it's said with such disgust it makes me sad. I mean, I don't think the people I know are trying to destroy the world. We're just trying to live. Our government is just as imperfect as any governent, but I'll quote a line from an old movie here:

"You American haters bore me to tears, Ms. Barham. I've dealt with Europeans all my life. I know all about us parvenus from the States who come over here and race around your old Cathedral towns with our cameras and Coca-cola bottles... Brawl in your pubs, paw at your women, and act like we own the world. We over-tip, we talk too loud, we think we can buy anything with a Hershey bar. I've had Germans and Italians tell me how politically ingenuous we are, and perhaps so. But we haven't managed a Hitler or a Mussolini yet. I've had Frenchmen call me a savage because I only took half an hour for lunch. Hell, Ms. Barham, the only reason the French take two hours for lunch is because the service in their restaurants is lousy. The most tedious lot are you British. We crass Americans didn't introduce war into your little island. This war, Ms. Barham to which we Americans are so insensitive, is the result of 2,000 years of European greed, barbarism, superstition, and stupidity. Don't blame it on our Coca-cola bottles. Europe was a growing brothel long before we came to town."

So there are many ways to look at the world and who bares what responsibility. Don't put it all on our shoulders. Now I know a lot of people think Bush is the modern day Hitler, but I think that if you really think about it there's a huge difference. I don't say he's not dangerous (or him and the people around him) or hasn't been the cause of many deaths, but there's a huge difference. And we are certainly not behind him. For the most part. It's a huge country so there's always that faction out there. That scary, close minded, violent faction. I just think it's unfair to lump us all together as fat, stupid war mongers. We're people and especially when we're just posting about some stupid band we don't deserve a million insulting comments.  
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on October 19, 2007, 01:03:11 AM
Quote from: 15

I think your alright Sandra as it goes.

I don't even know how to take that.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: adamzero on October 19, 2007, 02:48:37 AM
Quote from: 15
I admit to begrudging the fact America's involvement in WW2 was a bit late and at a great cost to Britain...

It's interesting you feel that way, Apps.  I always thought that FDR did a lot before the U.S. entered the war to help Britain (such as the Lend-Lease Act).   Britain won WWII with U.S. help, but lost its empire.  I think the loss of territorial possessions had more to do with the post-war economy in Britain than anything the U.S. did.  I think Britain is still struggling with its post-colonial identity.  The Beatles were a great part of Britain losing the stodgy old-school class-structured Britain for something cosmopolitan, radical, multicultural (white guys in love with black music).  

My only problem with Britain politically is that damned monarchy.  After you guys chopped off Charles' head, you should have done with it.  The Restoration was the worst thing to happen to Britain in the last 500 years.  


Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on October 19, 2007, 04:01:34 AM
I only bring the topic up as means for a discussion. It's no argument. I have visited several boards and inevitably the anti-American sentiment comes up. I don't feel I was attacking people from the UK either, only stating that the majority of comments came from them. Probably because of the whole speaking English thing. I mean, I know the sentiment is felt throughout the world. Political stuff aside my point was that I don't think it's fair or right to generalize an entire nation of people. THAT creates boundries. Discussion can only bring enlightenment.

Also, when I said I didn't know how to take that I wasn't being a jerk or anything. I seriously didn't know how to take it. The as it goes part threw me. But I suspect that if any of us met in person we'd seem to be nothing like we are on this site. Or at least seem very different. Well, I know I'd be. I usually keep this stuff inside and just try to keep everyone around me happy. Anonimity allows for certain privileges I guess.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: An Apple Beatle on October 19, 2007, 04:27:21 AM
Its a funny ol world. I'd like to live in peace.
Peace & love. x
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Bobber on October 19, 2007, 09:15:03 AM
Quote from: 284
you mean that's a lie?????

Yeah, it's a lie. We're not smoking pot. We're using coke.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: BlueMeanie on October 19, 2007, 09:40:53 AM
Quote from: 63

Yeah, it's a lie. We're not smoking pot. We're using coke.

Now that you've banned magic mushrooms. ;D
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Bobber on October 19, 2007, 10:26:23 AM
Quote from: 483

Now that you've banned magic mushrooms. ;D

That's just this time of the year.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: pc31 on October 19, 2007, 10:34:37 AM
and i thought you guys and girls were into pespi cola......we do the dew here...
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: BlueMeanie on October 19, 2007, 11:00:33 AM
On a more serious note, I think we all get critisised wrongly sometimes, due in part, to a lack of understanding of another people's culture. I can completely empathise with how you feel Sondra. I've been brought up with other people saying things like: 'You English and your tea', 'You English and your weather', You English and your Monarchy', You English driving on the left', You English and your queueing'!!! Mostly irritating I know, rather than insulting, but a lifetime of it really makes you mad sometimes. Sometimes ignorance can be bliss, and sometimes not. For those that are ignorant by choice, pity them. Smile and nod, and know that you're above that.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Joost on October 19, 2007, 12:09:11 PM
Quote from: 483
On a more serious note, I think we all get critisised wrongly sometimes, due in part, to a lack of understanding of another people's culture.

True. I once heard Bill O'Reilly say on TV that a lot of thing are going the wrong way in America and that if they wouldn't be careful, "America could end up just like The Netherlands". I was very insulted when I heard that.

Of course you can legally get cocaine in every supermarket here, our women have abortions just for the fun of it, we have government funded campaigns to convert people to homosexuality and we have more brothels than houses, but I don't see what's wrong with all that?  ::)
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: on October 19, 2007, 03:10:51 PM
The Americans i have met have always been nice people , so i can only judge on my experience which as been good.
I don't like rudeness and i find the internet a very rude place to be sometimes , ive seen a lot of things written and i just think where are your manners , that might be a bit old fashioned but i was taught " Good Manners " if you can't make a point without been rude you should be silent .
My mum always says manners cost nothing and i agree with her ?

DaveRam :)
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Kevin on October 19, 2007, 04:00:37 PM
Quote from: 9

 I think Britain is still struggling with its post-colonial identity....

My only problem with Britain politically is that damned monarchy.  After you guys chopped off Charles' head, you should have done with it.  The Restoration was the worst thing to happen to Britain in the last 500 years.  

Agree with the first bit totally. Britain has three choices - side with the US, side with Europe or go it alone. It's still not sure what way to go.
Re the monarchy - I used to feel the same as you, especially re The House Of Lords. But bear this in mind - Britain has had stable government for 300 years now, free of the revolutions, totalatarian governments and civil wars that have beset everyone else (including your good selves.) It is a nation proud of it's traditions of civil liberties, free speech and tolerance.They must be doing something right.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Kevin on October 19, 2007, 04:08:25 PM
Quote from: 15
I admit to begrudging the fact America's involvement in WW2 was a bit late and at a great cost to Britain...Thats a power struggle though by power hungry politicians...not peace-loving individuals. :o

I can't hold that against them. they had involved themselves in a european war in 1917 just to see the continent tearing itself apart again barely a generation later. Why should americans die for what would be seen as protecting the Soviet, French and British empires (that themselves enslaved and exploited millions). If I'd been an american in 1939 i wouldn't want my country involved in another european squabble.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: An Apple Beatle on October 19, 2007, 06:15:30 PM
It's a fair point Kevin & AdamZero earlier. On re-reading this thread, i stand a bit more enlightened and apologise for my own tone. Just hope my brother gets home in one piece instead of defending stupid oil lines!

This is a pandora's box of a subject and can be justified/villified in many examples. I wish I never grew up at times to learn the worlds sins.  :-/
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: mr kite on October 19, 2007, 10:19:15 PM
Hatred of a country is a strange one , as i grew up, i was feed with WW2 war films and it was off to the fields with are sticks as guns and go and shoot as many Germans as possible , i hated Germans and i`d never met one .
I treat people as they treat me ,and it dos`nt matter to me what colour , country they come from i, have respect for anyone, and who has  respect for me .
I was once proud to be English , not any more , when `ive been abroad and seen how English treat people, with no respect and no courtrsey and it upsets me .
But not all English are like that ? i guess not .
When i went to New York i could`nt get over how friendly the people were , doe`s that mean all New Yorkers are like that ?
Hate Americans , no , only small minded people who hate someone for the only reason that they live in another country , and are proberly wishing they were living there and its just jeaousy , i hate living here now and i`d leave tomorrow if i could .
Any Offers   ;D
As Goerge said , "its easier to critisise someone else than to see yourself "
Love and peace , heres hoping      

(inlove3)
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: An Apple Beatle on October 20, 2007, 02:13:16 AM
here, here. x
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Dark Phoenyx on October 20, 2007, 03:09:44 AM
Ignorance ard racism ara closely related.  Puerto Rico is a territory of the US and there's always controversy over the political status of the island.  But I've notieced that  lot of people in PR who are pro independence who are very attached to American lifestyle and values.  But again I can't make generalizations, that's the problem with religion and other matters.  Everybody has the right to have their own believes.  Maybe some of the policies followed by the American governement are not the best but that doesn't mean Americans are bad,  The same happens with Muslims, we can't say all Muslims are terrorist but yes, there's a lot of people in the world that hate Americans probably because they want for their nations what US has achieved...
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: An Apple Beatle on October 20, 2007, 03:25:15 AM
There are many paralells with Britain.....just one for example; Mexican immigrants resemble our own British immigrant issues...Does it portray modern slave labour? have we become complacent & lazy as countries? Some of you guys round here can speak about it with more depth & knowledge than I can..I am now really interested in this whole concept of Anti-Amercanism as I have neve seen so many uncensored views together in one place. The fact it has not degenerated into a slanging match shows the greatness of this forum.

I'd love to hear what Lennon or the rest of the beatles would say about this...My bet is they would be ambigious! lol
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on October 20, 2007, 06:10:01 AM
I have a feeling Lennon would be very Americanized at this point in his life. Which would actually depress me. I mean because it wouldn't really be him I guess. If that makes any sense.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: pc31 on October 20, 2007, 10:53:11 AM
yassir individual merits....
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: The Fox Drummer on October 22, 2007, 07:58:04 PM
I feel that on some level, Americans have deserved their bad rap, though. I'm American myself, but at the moment I'm really not proud of it. My country isn't a great place to be right now in my opinion - our government is doing some very disturbing, terrible things to people in Guatanamo Bay, Iraq, etc. and interfering in other countries' business, and I can understand why some people don't like us for that.

Still...I think that many people who are just ignorant stereotype us so much that they'll call us (them? I don't even like to associate myself with my country...) names even if they don't know what they're talking about, and that's the thing that gets me. *shrug*

People are entitled to say whatever they want, really. I don't mind if they insult America simply because I'm not at all patriotic, but if you're going to insult the country, at least have some background knowledge, please.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on October 23, 2007, 01:59:21 AM
Quote from: 669
I feel that on some level, Americans have deserved their bad rap, though. I'm American myself, but at the moment I'm really not proud of it. My country isn't a great place to be right now in my opinion - our government is doing some very disturbing, terrible things to people in Guatanamo Bay, Iraq, etc. and interfering in other countries' business, and I can understand why some people don't like us for that.

Still...I think that many people who are just ignorant stereotype us so much that they'll call us (them? I don't even like to associate myself with my country...) names even if they don't know what they're talking about, and that's the thing that gets me. *shrug*

People are entitled to say whatever they want, really. I don't mind if they insult America simply because I'm not at all patriotic, but if you're going to insult the country, at least have some background knowledge, please.

It's not the country that's being insulted so much as the people in it. That's what bothers me. I feel sad that you are not proud to be from here. I mean, we've accomplished many great things as well, but it's overshadowed by all the negativity. If people don't like what's going on, then they should stand up for change. It's been done before and it will be done again. I feel there is a definite mood building up which will result in something positive. That's the way I choose to look at it instead of choosing to feel guilty because that's what people tell me I should feel. I refuse to be suckered in by all the media hype.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: The Fox Drummer on October 23, 2007, 03:18:39 PM
Quote from: 216

It's not the country that's being insulted so much as the people in it. That's what bothers me. I feel sad that you are not proud to be from here. I mean, we've accomplished many great things as well, but it's overshadowed by all the negativity. If people don't like what's going on, then they should stand up for change. It's been done before and it will be done again. I feel there is a definite mood building up which will result in something positive. That's the way I choose to look at it instead of choosing to feel guilty because that's what people tell me I should feel. I refuse to be suckered in by all the media hype.
I said I don't feel very proud to be part of my country now - I'm very proud of the fact that it was founded by a revolutionary change of ideas that included efficient democratic systems, freedom of speech, expression, and identification, etc., and I believe that we have contributed successfully to the world in a great many ways that few people choose to acknowledge today, but right now, I'm downright ashamed to be an American. I feel that we're represented by a corrupt government and the mistakes it's made in the Middle East and other parts of the world, and the American people aren't doing anything to change that in this moment in history, which I think is just sad. I don't want to associate myself with those kinds of people because I feel that we're dishonouring and dismantling our revolutionary and intellectual past by doing nothing. Like you, I'm hoping and working for a change, but the very things that people stereotype about us - greed, intolerance, self-centredness - are heightened by today's American culture and are therefore preventing us from doing anything.

Also, this is just my personal views, but I disagree with some basic fundamentals that have prevailed throughout our history, e.g. capitalism. *shrugs* But that's my personal b****ing - it works for some people and doesn't for others. ;)
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: An Apple Beatle on October 26, 2007, 11:13:19 AM
Here is something may or may not be of interest that a friend of mine posted on myspace. It bears resonance with my own feelings.

Vonnegut's Blues For America - Read It (Or Don't) L x
No matter how corrupt, greedy, and heartless our government, our corporations, our media, and our religious and charitable institutions may become, the music will still be wonderful.

If I should ever die, God forbid, let this be my epitaph:

THE ONLY PROOF HE NEEDED
FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD
WAS MUSIC

Now, during our catastrophically idiotic war in Vietnam, the music kept getting better and better and better. We lost that war, by the way. Order couldn't be restored in Indochina until the people kicked us out.

That war only made billionaires out of millionaires. Today's war is making trillionaires out of billionaires. Now I call that progress.

And how come the people in countries we invade can't fight like ladies and gentlemen, in uniform and with tanks and helicopter gunships?

Back to music. It makes practically everybody fonder of life than he or she would be without it. Even military bands, although I am a pacifist, always cheer me up. And I really like Strauss and Mozart and all that, but the priceless gift that African Americans gave the whole world when they were still in slavery was a gift so great that it is now almost the only reason many foreigners still like us at least a little bit. That specific remedy for the worldwide epidemic of depression is a gift called the blues. All pop music today  jazz, swing, be-bop, Elvis Presley, the Beatles, the Stones, rock-and-roll, hip-hop, and on and on  is derived from the blues.

A gift to the world? One of the best rhythm-and-blues combos I ever heard was three guys and a girl from Finland playing in a club in Krakow, Poland.

The wonderful writer Albert Murray, who is a jazz historian and a friend of mine among other things, told me that during the era of slavery in this country  an atrocity from which we can never fully recover  the suicide rate per capita among slave owners was much higher than the suicide rate among slaves.

Murray says he thinks this was because slaves had a way of dealing with depression, which their white owners did not: They could shoo away Old Man Suicide by playing and singing the Blues. He says something else which also sounds right to me. He says the blues can't drive depression clear out of a house, but can drive it into the corners of any room where it's being played. So please remember that.

Foreigners love us for our jazz. And they don't hate us for our purported liberty and justice for all. They hate us now for our arrogance.



What is radically new today is that my daughter, Lily, who has just turned 21, finds herself, as do your children, as does George W Bush, himself a kid, and Saddam Hussein and on and on, heir to a shockingly recent history of human slavery, to an Aids epidemic, and to nuclear submarines slumbering on the floors of fjords in Iceland and elsewhere, crews prepared at a moment's notice to turn industrial quantities of men, women, and children into radioactive soot and bone meal by means of rockets and H-bomb warheads. Our children have inherited technologies whose by-products, whether in war or peace, are rapidly destroying the whole planet as a breathable, drinkable system for supporting life of any kind.

Anyone who has studied science and talks to scientists notices that we are in terrible danger now. Human beings, past and present, have trashed the joint.

The biggest truth to face now  what is probably making me unfunny now for the remainder of my life  is that I don't think people give a damn whether the planet goes on or not. It seems to me as if everyone is living as members of Alcoholics Anonymous do, day by day. And a few more days will be enough. I know of very few people who are dreaming of a world for their grandchildren.

Many years ago I was so innocent I still considered it possible that we could become the humane and reasonable America so many members of my generation used to dream of. We dreamed of such an America during the Great Depression, when there were no jobs. And then we fought and often died for that dream during the second world war, when there was no peace.

But I know now that there is not a chance in hell of America becoming humane and reasonable. Because power corrupts us, and absolute power corrupts us absolutely. Human beings are chimpanzees who get crazy drunk on power. By saying that our leaders are power-drunk chimpanzees, am I in danger of wrecking the morale of our soldiers fighting and dying in the Middle East? Their morale, like so many lifeless bodies, is already shot to pieces. They are being treated, as I never was, like toys a rich kid got for Christmas.

Human beings have had to guess about almost everything for the past million years or so. The leading characters in our history books have been our most enthralling, and sometimes our most terrifying, guessers.

May I name two of them? Aristotle and Hitler.

One good guesser and one bad one.

And the masses of humanity through the ages, feeling inadequately educated just like we do now, and rightly so, have had little choice but to believe this guesser or that one.

Russians who didn't think much of the guesses of Ivan the Terrible, for example, were likely to have their hats nailed to their heads.

We must acknowledge that persuasive guessers, even Ivan the Terrible, now a hero in the Soviet Union, have sometimes given us the courage to endure extraordinary ordeals which we had no way of understanding. Crop failures, plagues, eruptions of volcanoes, babies being born dead
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on October 27, 2007, 08:49:57 PM
I've always respected Vonnegut as an author, but he had some pretty dim views about human beings in general.
Especially toward the end. And his own personal experiences in the war jaded him against his own country. He never left though as far as I know. That's always curious.  ::)
Here's something from one of your countrymen that reflects some of my own feelings. As you say. Either way, my original point has been completely missed.

Anti-Americanism Is Racist Envy
Paul Johnson, eminent British historian and author.

Anti-Americanism is the prevailing disease of intellectuals today. Like other diseases, it doesn't have to be logical or rational. But, like other diseases, it has a syndrome--a concurrent set of underlying symptoms that are also causes.

Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: An Apple Beatle on October 28, 2007, 05:38:32 PM
^How much did he get paid to fashion that nonsense?! lol :P

I do see what you are saying Sandra though & thanks for the insight on Vonegut. It's all intereting stuff.  :)
The whole EU thing is a shambles I must confess.
I must find out more about Paul Johnson,,,,,,eminent? Sounds like he is making a good living feeding the need for that opinion.  ;D
Maybe it's easy for people to confuse anti-war with anti-americanism? Just another ponderer to throw into the pot.
My brother is now back from Afghanistan thankfully. :)
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on October 29, 2007, 05:18:36 AM
Dude, it's just more ramblings from another half senile old man. There's always someone with a counter arguement is all and I wasn't talking politics. All I was saying when I started this thread is that I think it sucks that people think it's okay to call Americans derogitory names in response to them not liking a song or not liking a joke. I mean, somehow it's become okay to completely insult Americans and because of all the guilt Americans either just ignore it or insult themselves. It's just pure hatred. Or like someone else on this thread said and that writer I quoted said, a form of racism. Why should that be okay? That's all I was asking. I said from the beginning I wasn't talking about politics. I don't think I confuse peoples hate for the war with pure bigotry. Here's a comment from YouTube: "America is falling down around your ears and you're all too busy blaming each other to even notice it. You're all overly sensitive about people making jibes at you... massively insecure race of people with no friends in or outside you're own borders." Now what does that have to do with being anti-war? So whatever. It's become a moot point.

On a more positive note, I'm happy that your brother is back and safe. I agree with you about this war being nonsensical and it's sad that not all of the families with loved ones over there are as lucky. But that is another issue and has many threads already devoted to it.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: An Apple Beatle on October 29, 2007, 10:01:47 AM
Thanks for the good wishes Sandra. The anti-war & anti American theory was only that...Not aimed at you but something worth a mention. I mean I never questioned anti this or that until this thread and got myself in a right posting exchange with you to discover that perhaps thats what I was feeling.
It's always better if I button it anyway! lol  :X x
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Kevin on October 29, 2007, 10:46:30 AM
Re Sandra's comment "Although Americans are seen as highly materialistic consumers, they are also despised and feared for their spiritual interests, their participation in religious worship and their subscription to creeds of morality. Europeans see no inconsistency in their condemnation of the U.S. for being at one and the same time paganly unethical and morally zealous. "
I think bewilderment would be a better word. how is it that the most technologically advanced nation on earth is talking about teaching creationism against evolution and banning scientific research. It seems such a backward step. You're the nation that fostered minds like Einstein and Hubble. religion, in western europe at least, is dead in the water.
And i would point out that when Britain was the world superpower US views towards it weren't exactly charirtable. I think it comes with the territory. Bobber summed it up so well with his "tall trees catch the most wind" quote.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on October 29, 2007, 04:56:08 PM
Quote from: 185
Re Sandra's comment "Although Americans are seen as highly materialistic consumers, they are also despised and feared for their spiritual interests, their participation in religious worship and their subscription to creeds of morality. Europeans see no inconsistency in their condemnation of the U.S. for being at one and the same time paganly unethical and morally zealous. "
I think bewilderment would be a better word. how is it that the most technologically advanced nation on earth is talking about teaching creationism against evolution and banning scientific research. It seems such a backward step. You're the nation that fostered minds like Einstein and Hubble. religion, in western europe at least, is dead in the water.
And i would point out that when Britain was the world superpower US views towards it weren't exactly charirtable. I think it comes with the territory. Bobber summed it up so well with his "tall trees catch the most wind" quote.

Don't forget, I didn't make the statement. Just quoted it. The whole religion thing has been baffling to ourselves as well. We have a puritan foundation that we just cannot seem to shake. I think that's where the root of it comes from. But the whole teaching creationism is not allowed in public schools anymore as far as I know. I think it's even gone as far as not being able to say the "one nation under God" line in the pledge of allegiance in some places and having to say happy holidays instead of Merry Christmas. Which I personally think is ridiculous. But either way, we've come a long way since the Scopes trial. But why do you see religion being dead as a positive thing? Don't you think it teaches values in a way? I think some people need it. I'm not religious myself, but I did get something from it growing up. Having religion doesn't always mean being fanatical in your beliefs.

I agree with Bobber's quote as well and it makes sense. I know why we are disliked. That's not my issue at all. My issue is: Can I enjoy looking up a person or video without being rudely insulted????? There's a way to get a point across without being nasty. That's all. Really.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Kevin on October 29, 2007, 05:21:21 PM
I have mixed feelings about religion, so I can't say it's demise is positive. Just making an observation really, that because it's dead here (be that positive or negative) it makes it hard for us to understand its resurgence in the US.
I'm on your side on this one. If its any consolotion we give the French just as much stick. I think people who presume to know america based on what they see on the telly are misguided. There's that old saying - what people don't understand they fear, and what they fear they attack.
You know I think there is a cultural divide between us and you, but I would never make a judgement call on what is better or worse. They're just different.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on October 29, 2007, 07:33:06 PM
You're awesome Kevin.  :)
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: pc31 on October 29, 2007, 10:43:21 PM
i read an article on the guy who invented the fins for the two atom bombs dropped on japan,fat man and little boy....he is proud of his invention and to be an american...while i don't share his veiws i can appreciate that his invention helped our cause...we had to fight and scratch to get to where we are at because there are so many different veiws here in america....i won't relate the whole triaid i layed on beatle ed(erin)because i started a topic called oh no another bloody american and she thought i was being non supportive of the 9-11 attacks...i wasn't and told her that america was built on the bones of my ancestors...i said more but it was butality misdirected....america is what it is because of unity...people sometimes need a 9-11 to wake them up..let's hope it never goes that far again here...
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: BlueMeanie on October 31, 2007, 01:40:04 PM
Quote from: 284
people sometimes need a 9-11 to wake them up..let's hope it never goes that far again here...

Very true. Look no further than the unity showed by the people of London during The Blitz in WWII. Or the massive home support of the British Troops during the Faulklands conflict. People pull together when in conflict, and close ranks when under attack. It becomes a very patriotic time, for any nation, and any critisism is taken to heart. Such a mass outpouring of patriotism is often perceived as brashness and arrogance, and generally, Americans have been wrongly critisised in that department.

Britain suffers from two separate, but linked complexes; inferiority, and identity. The Empire is gone, Britain is not 'Great' anymore. We lost The War of Independence, and relied heavily on America to support us in two European Wars. In place of it's Empire, Britain now finds itself under the watchful eye of the EU. Something it has never really come to terms with, or for that matter, fully embraced. They fear they'll start to lose their identity if they change their currency to Euro's (the Danes are the same in this respect), drink half litres instead of pints, and travel in kilometres instead of miles. It doesn't want to let go of it's once great past, and rely on other nations, even in partnership.

America, on the other hand, is a confident, thriving, multi-cultural society. That it sometimes pushes it's weight a little too much is to be understood, not critisised. Should we ignore the plight of people in countries led by dictatoship? Should we really think that it's out of our hands, and none of our business? Maybe we should be thanking the most powerful nation on Earth for having the balls to try to do something about it.

Jealousy is a very bad thing, and the Brits have it in spadefulls when it comes to America. They seem to have forgotten what they were like in the past, and indeed seem to have no inkling as to how they are perceived by the rest of Europe. It's time some people grew up and realised that actually, we have a lot to thank America for.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Kevin on October 31, 2007, 02:08:09 PM
Quote from: 483

Very true. Look no further than the unity showed by the people of London during The Blitz in WWII. Or the massive home support of the British Troops during the Faulklands conflict. People pull together when in conflict, and close ranks when under attack.

Totally agree. A canny leader may even engineer such a situation. Putin in Chechna perhaps. The trick of course is to make sure you win. The Argentian junta attacked The Falklands to bolster its home standing and fell because it lost.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: BlueMeanie on October 31, 2007, 02:52:46 PM
Quote from: 185

Totally agree. A canny leader may even engineer such a situation. Putin in Chechna perhaps. The trick of course is to make sure you win. The Argentian junta attacked The Falklands to bolster its home standing and fell because it lost.

And wasn't it just what Maggie needed at the time, to improve her dwindling support.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: An Apple Beatle on October 31, 2007, 04:28:19 PM
To think that Britain as a nation are percieved as jealous though is something I cannot identify with personally at all. I am someone with no parents or grandparents though & of mixed parental & geographical nationality. I also live on the Isle of Wight (Slightly detached from the UK). The country I live on infact follows much of what America does, as did The Beatles. I personally would not be what I attempt to percieve I am without American music & free expression, as much as I would not be without other empires that have brought progress to humanity. BM you do put it well and like Kevin, I agree with much of it. Where is this post colonial jealousy coming from though other than randoms on unsolicited websites? Who/what defines it? I am intrigued to know.

I think what Im getting at is, to be percieved in such a way can make people very defensive and therefore the negative cycle continues. People not neccersarily that way become misunderstood in their response to the point of hatred to a fellow human being. We can never trace who threw the first stone. I guess I just want to be Mowgli from the jungle book and not really face it at all, as it is sooo hard to trust much anymore. I miss a simple life. You guys are very informative too btw, thank you.....It's all enlightenment, perhaps at least for us here.  :)
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Kevin on October 31, 2007, 04:44:40 PM
I see it like this. As recently as my parents generation Britain was the major economic, military and cultural power on the planet. It knew its place in the world and what it was about.
In the blink of an eye that was all gone (has any empire vanished as fast?) Now where does Britain belong? Do we forsake any pretence as a dominant force in world affairs and go it alone, and become another Norway? Do we side with europe or cozy up with the americans? I don't think anyone knows.
I think Britain is jealous of america's wealth and power. People constantly knock them as insular, brash, and uncultured. The whole "have a nice day" thing is mercilessly mocked, as if sullen english indifference is somehow preferable. Brits are pretty disdainful of most foreigners (as probably are all cutures to outsiders) but seem to reserve most venom for americans. For the sake of brevity I'd say a lot of that stems from a hidden jealousy. Maybe in america's success we see our own failures.
I need a smoke.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: An Apple Beatle on October 31, 2007, 05:07:31 PM
you see it well jedi. lol

I'll go along with George Clinton - One nation Under A Groove!
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Kevin on October 31, 2007, 05:37:12 PM
Quote from: 483

And wasn't it just what Maggie needed at the time, to improve her dwindling support.

I'm currently reading "Their Finest Hour" about Britain in late 1940. It seems Churchill doubted the Germans seriously intended to invade (which was correct) but that he deliberately played up the threat. It seems he thought a little fear would do the people some good, especially as there were many in his government and in the media who doubted the wisedom  of  refusing to negotiate. Sounds a tad familiar.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: BlueMeanie on October 31, 2007, 06:41:22 PM
Quote from: 15
To think that Britain as a nation are percieved as jealous though is something I cannot identify with personally at all.

Maybe jealousy is the wrong term to use, but I think envy definitely creeps in there. America fears no-one, and is beholden to no-one. The kids have it instilled in them at an early age that America is great, they are the best. They grow up with confidence second to none. Whereas Britain used to be the best, and now needs Europe, as opposed to Europe needing it. Many people in Britain have become dissatisfied with the country. I meet many of them that now live here, and wouldn't go back. Are they going to bring their kids up to think Britain is great? In contrast, the Americans I meet can't wait to get home.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: An Apple Beatle on October 31, 2007, 10:52:31 PM
For all the people of the world.
Af0piTceE2o (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af0piTceE2o)
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on October 31, 2007, 11:22:17 PM
That HAS to be a Sesame Street episode from the seventies. That's what it was like back then anyway. Too bad Jesse turned out to be a fraud. He went from that to using phrases like "himey town." That's always dissapointing. But it is a good message. Most of his generation turned out to be all talk though didn't they?
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: An Apple Beatle on October 31, 2007, 11:49:32 PM
It is Sesame street. It is a shame about the right honourable. lol
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: maninthequeue on November 13, 2007, 03:30:08 PM
Quote from: 483

Very true. Look no further than the unity showed by the people of London during The Blitz in WWII. Or the massive home support of the British Troops during the Faulklands conflict. People pull together when in conflict, and close ranks when under attack. It becomes a very patriotic time, for any nation, and any critisism is taken to heart. Such a mass outpouring of patriotism is often perceived as brashness and arrogance, and generally, Americans have been wrongly critisised in that department.

Britain suffers from two separate, but linked complexes; inferiority, and identity. The Empire is gone, Britain is not 'Great' anymore. We lost The War of Independence, and relied heavily on America to support us in two European Wars. In place of it's Empire, Britain now finds itself under the watchful eye of the EU. Something it has never really come to terms with, or for that matter, fully embraced. They fear they'll start to lose their identity if they change their currency to Euro's (the Danes are the same in this respect), drink half litres instead of pints, and travel in kilometres instead of miles. It doesn't want to let go of it's once great past, and rely on other nations, even in partnership.

America, on the other hand, is a confident, thriving, multi-cultural society. That it sometimes pushes it's weight a little too much is to be understood, not critisised. Should we ignore the plight of people in countries led by dictatoship? Should we really think that it's out of our hands, and none of our business? Maybe we should be thanking the most powerful nation on Earth for having the balls to try to do something about it.

Jealousy is a very bad thing, and the Brits have it in spadefulls when it comes to America. They seem to have forgotten what they were like in the past, and indeed seem to have no inkling as to how they are perceived by the rest of Europe. It's time some people grew up and realised that actually, we have a lot to thank America for.

As a Brit I think this is a great piece of analysis. However, we do know how we are perceived by the rest of Europe, especially every May when the Eurovision Song Contest occurs.  :)

However, the criticism that us Brits uses against America has often been interpreted as inclusive when it has been more specific.

For example we generally like America more when you have a Democrat as President largely due to their policies & ideologies being a lot more similar to ours in the UK.

However, a large percentage of our nation have a major problem when it comes to a Republican administration. We have a problem with their religious Christian right wing theological beliefs such as anti-abortion/birth control/sex education, anti-divorce, anti-Homosexuality, anti-Scientific viewpoint (such as stem cell research) on Creation and the origin of species. we have a problem with their laissez-faire screw the rest of the world with regards global warming and the impact that human activity clearly has on climate change by ignoring the Kyoto Protocols.

Whilst at the time of the (illegal) War in Iraq, 63% of Brits were against it. As a result of "Puppy" Blair following George "W" Bush into this dreadful war leading to the deaths of thousands of innocent people and a few thousands of the allies troops, it was to cost Tony Blair his Prime Ministership. Which is a great pity as his former Chancellor (Gordon Brown) has shown in his first few months as PM that he is not up to the job.

To many Brits we don't hate America, but we hate George W Bush and his administration especially Donald Rumsfeld, but hey like a bad/sick John Wayne Western film parody he was only finishing off his daddy's work.

Never mind if the Bush Administration really wanted to do something about the "War on Terror" then it should have been paying a far closer eye on the military dictatorship in Pakistan, but ignored the vastly increasing Al Qaeda involvement in Pakistan because they are an ally of the US of A. Plus if America are the good guys then what are you doing having a Guantanamo Bay which is something that belongs to Hitler's Nazi Germany of Stalin's Communist Russia?
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Kevin on November 13, 2007, 03:49:34 PM
I can't understand how Brits can get sniffy about the US and Iraq. We are a democratic nation yet our troops have taken part in the invasion and occupation. We could have voted out "Puppet" Blair but we didn't. We are just as culpable as any american. He lied to us and still we sat back and waiting for him to choose his moment of departure. The war didn't cost him his job. Don't pretend Brits took some kind of morale stand that was beyond the americans. We are just as guilty.

In some ways Britains actions are worse, by participation we have given morale standing to the whole stupid affair. And for what? And maybe if you are  to liken Bush to Stalin or Hitler then you should liken Blair/Brown to Mussolini: the gulliable stooge to a real super powers ambitions, giving an air of respectability  to an underhanded interprise, trying to be a big boy but punching far above his weight.

It's hard to decide what shames me the most. Helping a big guy beat up a defenceless non threatening kid, or running away and abandon him the moment you think he might be loosing.

Brits didn't build Guantanamo Bay but we helped provide the environment in which it could be used. If we hadn't been the only nation to willingly fully support america no matter what it did, if america had had to stand alone, the place probably wouldn't exist.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: pc31 on November 16, 2007, 11:44:58 AM
i think bush thought his iran war would bolster his image to americans but it failed....
it is a pity that crisis binds us further....
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: BlueMeanie on November 16, 2007, 11:50:22 AM
There has to be a case for Bush being the worst President ever, doesn't there? Fist of all he's the son of George Bush Snr. Second, he takes America into two wars it can't win - Iraq, and Afganistsan. And thirdly, the economy is going tits up. What else is left for him to ruin?
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Kevin on November 16, 2007, 12:06:03 PM
Quote from: 483
There has to be a case for Bush being the worst President ever, doesn't there? Fist of all he's the son of George Bush Snr. Second, he takes America into two wars it can't win - Iraq, and Afganistsan. And thirdly, the economy is going tits up. What else is left for him to ruin?

Every night he and Blair must thank God* for 9/11. Without that they would have no excuse for their ill-advised attempts at foreign policy.
I can't single Bush out for any special stupidity award when Blair ( and therefore this country) has willingly been right beside him every step of the way.
And to be honest, it doesn't seem that long ago that Reagan was the warmongering-idiot-with-a-nuclear-arsenal that I was supposed to despise and ridicule. Now he's generally regarded as having won the Cold War.

* Or Mossad. Not sure how much "in the loop" these two are.

Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: BlueMeanie on November 16, 2007, 12:32:58 PM
Quote from: 185

Every night he and Blair must thank God* for 9/11. Without that they would have no excuse for their ill-advised attempts at foreign policy.
I can't single Bush out for any special stupidity award when Blair ( and therefore this country) has willingly been right beside him every step of the way.
 

True. It's very tiring being the American President's b****. I'm just glad I haven't had to live in England for most of Blairs' leadership.

I can't help thinking how utterly gutted the paid up, 'socialist worker' type Labour voter must be, 10 years on from the euphoria of that election win. New Labour, my arse. Never having been a Labour voter myself, half of me thinks it's hillarious, and the other half finds it quite sad.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Kevin on November 16, 2007, 12:45:17 PM
Quote from: 483
I can't help thinking how utterly gutted the paid up, 'socialist worker' type Labour voter must be, 10 years on from the euphoria of that election win. New Labour, my arse. Never having been a Labour voter myself, half of me thinks it's hillarious, and the other half finds it quite sad.

I feel your pain.
Personally, I do get some warped pleasure everytime (and anywhere)  the Left gets in to power and  becomes the same power-crazy clique-ridden control freaks they've spent their whole lives villifying to half empty community halls or the odd passer-by who stopped because they thought they were selling poppies.
At least The Right is honest.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: BlueMeanie on November 16, 2007, 12:57:50 PM
Quote from: 185
At least The Right is honest.

Well that's a sweeping statement that we'll save for another time! But yes, the right actually say what yhey're going to do, and attempt to do it. The left has always been full of empty, unrealistic, daydreamlike promises that they know they can't fulfill. The Labour party only got the votes because New Labour stands for Liberal Democrat. Indeed, there is no reason for the Lib Dem's to exist anymore.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: harihead on November 16, 2007, 05:21:39 PM
Quote from: 483
There has to be a case for Bush being the worst President ever, doesn't there? Fist of all he's the son of George Bush Snr. Second, he takes America into two wars it can't win - Iraq, and Afganistsan. And thirdly, the economy is going tits up. What else is left for him to ruin?
Don't forget our civil liberties! The current administration has done more to savage our rights and screw up the Constitution than any other. Yes, the race to make the President a dictator started before this administration, but our Congress is doing everything in its power to accelerate the process. The balance between the 3 branches of government is all caflooey. The President can't be a major dick on his own. The American people allowed that to happen by letting Congress be the self-centered weiners they mostly turn out to be. (Even my favorite Congressman joined the Dark Side so he can get into the Senate, wah!)

So the President can spy on the American people and toss people in jail without charge for as long as he wants, and the American people say, "More! Take away my right to protest, too! Because if I say anything against the President, I must be un-American!" When this administration is the least American thing to come down the pike since the Confederate States said, "We're leaving." At least they were up front about it.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: harihead on November 16, 2007, 05:26:36 PM
Now this is interesting. My post was just censored.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Kevin on November 16, 2007, 05:28:24 PM
Quote from: 551
So the President can spy on the American people and toss people in jail without charge for as long as he wants, and the American people say, "More! Take away my right to protest, too! Because if I say anything against the President, I must be un-American!"

I think it's hard to judge whether in a hundred years from now history will regard the Bush administration as exceptionally stupid or amazingly clever.
The you-are-either-with-us-or-against-us thing was a stroke of genius. No room for doubters now. And to have an enemy that's some beardie foreign chap who only pops up in videos (and who lives in the most US-vital area in the world!) =  A+ effort. They couldn't have come up with a better opponent if they'd invented him themselves.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: BlueMeanie on November 16, 2007, 05:31:45 PM
Quote from: 185
They couldn't have come up with a better opponent if they'd invented him themselves.

Now there's a thought.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Kevin on November 16, 2007, 05:33:23 PM
In Britain we've got a whole heap of new anti-terrorism laws. The government says we needn't worry because they won't effect "normal people."
At the last Labour Party Conference (Convention), a 60 plus grey-haired party member who was voicing his opinion was removed from the auditorium for heckling. He was kept from attending the rest of the conference by...you guessed it....the new anti-terrorism laws.
We are also now longer allowed to protest anywhere near Parliament. Too much media attention if you protest with Big Ben as a nice backdrop for the cameras I suppose.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: BlueMeanie on November 16, 2007, 05:33:50 PM
Quote from: 551
Now this is interesting. My post was just censored.

You can switch censorship off. 'Disable Censored Words' in Board settings, in your profile. Does that mean you've been spared our swearing in the past? We'll have to make up for lost time! ;D
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: BlueMeanie on November 16, 2007, 05:36:28 PM
Quote from: 551
Now this is interesting. My post was just censored.

You can switch censorship off. 'Disable Censored Words' in Board settings, in your profile. Does that mean you've been spared our swearing in the past? We'll have to make up for lost time! ;D
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Kevin on November 16, 2007, 05:43:00 PM
Quote from: 551
Now this is interesting. My post was just censored.

Might have been me. I'm not used to being able to modify other peoples post, and more than once I've hit "modify" instead of "quote."
And I generally abbreviate the quotes to the bit that's relevant to my own post.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: harihead on November 16, 2007, 05:50:14 PM
Oh, good grief. Okay, I'll fix the profile. And here I just thought you all were reasonably well-spoken people! Boy, is the bloom off the rose bush! (Actually, it shows that I only swear when I'm mad. I knew I should never get into a political discussion here.)

Since I am, Kevin, we have the same thing here. Bush crowds are hand-picked (yes, you may now use the Hitler salute). Every once in a while a human with dissenting views makes it through security and asks all those questions the press aren't allowed to ask because they'll lose their jobs. Media censorship is a _fact_ in this country. (I work in media; I know.) Anyway, this guy or gal will get through, speak their peace, and be celebrated on YouTube for a few days after they're carted out. But what the rest of the world must see is happy Americans just loving this amazing dangerously unbalanced dickweed of a protodictator. (Let's see if your censorship program flags that.)
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: harihead on November 16, 2007, 05:57:44 PM
Quote from: 185
Might have been me. I'm not used to being able to modify other peoples post, and more than once I've hit "modify" instead of "quote."
And I generally abbreviate the quotes to the bit that's relevant to my own post.

Now I'm puzzled. The Censorship option _is_ off (clear). Kevin, did you change my words? What I tried to say is that The President can't be a major dick on his own. That's D-I-C-K (in case I get censored again.)

What it now says is "The President can't be a major private on his own."

I tried to edit the post for a missing word right after and couldn't. So who was revising this? The site? Kevin? An American toady cleaning up my post for the President?

Are we all clear what  I called our anti-social diagnosible absolutely impeachable creep that for some unfathomable reason (read that as "stolen election") got elected to the highest office in the land and is now doing his best to dismantle was used to be the greatest Democratic Republic on the planet? Are we clear where I stand on this?
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: BlueMeanie on November 16, 2007, 08:17:16 PM
Quote from: 551
Are we all clear what  I called our anti-social diagnosible absolutely impeachable creep that for some unfathomable reason (read that as "stolen election") got elected to the highest office in the land and is now doing his best to dismantle was used to be the greatest Democratic Republic on the planet? Are we clear where I stand on this?

I think I understand. ;D
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on November 16, 2007, 08:27:54 PM
Quote from: 551

Now I'm puzzled. The Censorship option _is_ off (clear). Kevin, did you change my words? What I tried to say is that The President can't be a major dick on his own. That's D-I-C-K (in case I get censored again.)

What it now says is "The President can't be a major private on his own."

I tried to edit the post for a missing word right after and couldn't. So who was revising this? The site? Kevin? An American toady cleaning up my post for the President?

Are we all clear what  I called our anti-social diagnosible absolutely impeachable creep that for some unfathomable reason (read that as "stolen election") got elected to the highest office in the land and is now doing his best to dismantle was used to be the greatest Democratic Republic on the planet? Are we clear where I stand on this?

For some reason d i c k always comes out as private. As in private part. So no need for paranoia. Censored or not I really find it hard to follow what your logic is. I'm not being an ass, I guess I'm just stupid. But then I do get turned off when names like Hitler are bandied about so lightly.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: harihead on November 17, 2007, 05:41:31 PM
This little jewel might be appropriate to our discussion:

Bush Blair - Endless Love
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nupdcGwIG-g


Sandra, I by no means use the parallel with Hitler lightly. What is happening in this country is chilling. I suggest you look a little more closely at what Congress is doing. Look at their tactics (such as passing bills at midnight on a Friday to minimize media exposure), the type of bills they pass and the ones they let fail. Step #1 is to get informed.  

Dr. Lawrence Britt has done a well-regarded study of the growth of fascism in America. This link covers his 14 characteristics common to the fascist regimes of Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Suharto, and Pinochet. It includes links to articles supporting each of his contentions: http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

There's a lot of links here, but you should read up on what the so-called Patriot Act did to our civil liberties. I'd start with the Analysis section: http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/USAPA.html
This article does a nice summary of this trend starting back in 1996: http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/theOtherWar.html

My sister, by the way, is on the front lines of the "War on Terror"--trying to anticipate biochemical warfare. In her direct experience, this Act made her job worse. It requires tons of paperwork instead of the practical procedures, which she'd been busy implementing before the Act passed. (Remember how the new Homeland Security rules fouled-up Katrina rescue efforts.) All her suggestions of direct ways our food, water, and public health could be at risk of terrorist attack have yet to be acted upon years after she identified them. Is our government serious about keeping us safe?

There's also this, just released yesterday: "The Evangelical Christian Takeover of the Military" http://www.alternet.org/asoldierspeaks/67385/?page=1 - a well-written heartfelt article by a retired Lt. Col. This isn't hype or hysteria. Check out this paragraph, about what our own Congress did:

"the House of Representatives, with little public notice, passed a chilling bill that undermines enforcement of the First Amendment's separation of church and state. The Public Expression of Religion Act, H.R. 2679, provides that attorneys who successfully challenge government actions that violate the establishment clause of the First Amendment shall not be entitled to recover attorney's fees. According to The Washington Post, the purpose of this bill is to prevent suits challenging unconstitutional government actions advancing religion."


These are all verifiable facts. The deal is, we're being told that everything is okay, we're the best, we're #1, etc. etc. and the country that we grew up in is becoming increasingly corrupt. We're going to be in a world of hurt if we don't demand accountable behavior from our elected representatives.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on November 17, 2007, 10:34:19 PM
Actually, I think Step One would be to get informed by individuals who do not already have some sort of agenda. Or to be informed by a variety of sources that speak to both sides of an issue. But that's just me. I can most definitely find hundreds of sources backing up or discounting everything that you say. Getting informed is a tricky business. Do it well. Reading alarmist literature probably isn't the best way.

I don't discount that this administration has major issues. I've done criticizing myself. I'm not hiding my head in the sand as most of America isn't either. There is a general unhappiness and unrest going on in this country. Doesn't that say anything to you? People are not stupid. They know more of what's going on than you give them credit for.

As for Dr. Britt. While his list is interesting, its also very superficial. If you want to see the real gap between this government and an actual fascist government, do some real research. But then I'm not about to sit here and needlessly try to refute liberal fundamentalist dogma just as I wouldn't waste my time trying to pick apart what's wrong with right wing fundamentalist extremist beliefs. Could you post something pertaining to the background of Dr. Britt? I'm not finding much about him.

I said I understood people's issues with this county when I started this thread. I also said I wasn't annoyed because of peoples issues with the politics of this country, yet the massive generalizations against its people. But that's besides the point. Anyway, I choose not to harp on how disgusting this country is because, well for one thing, it's not horrible to live in, the majority of people in it want change, and I know its potential to be great. We're coming into an election year and I'd rather hope and work for change than hold onto the notion that we're becoming the Fourth Reich.

Every government has its corruptions. If you think we are any different from any other powerful government now or through the ages then you are deluding yourself. To constantly say you're ashamed to live here or that it's terrible to live here right now is not indicative of how most Americans really feel. Be proud that your actions can actually bring about change. Yes, it's easier said than done, but at least it can be done. Get out and spread the word on your favorite candidate before another one gets in that you think will continue to lead this country, with all its sheep into the throws of a fascist dictatorship.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: harihead on November 18, 2007, 02:08:58 AM
Thank you for the basic primer on intelligent research. I think I can grasp the basics.

I have been actively involved in the last 2 elections, campaigning by phone and on foot, door to door. I'm not just sitting around complaining, I'm actively involved. If you are too, good for you!
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on November 18, 2007, 04:14:39 AM
Well I didn't mean to annoy you or anything. It's just that if you post strong statements you should expect strong reactions to those statements. I'm only expressing how I see things. If I did it in a way that was less than nice, I apologize. My friends and I getter rather heated when we debate, but it's all for the good. No harm intended. I do think it's rather short sighted to compare Bush to Hitler on any level though and it does tend to get to me. As does the implicaton that our country is headed toward fascism. I'm just weary of this kind of thinking in this day and age. With all the information available to us and with all the resources at our fingertips I think it's rather insulting to say that the American people are going to be that easily duped. But again, that is MY opinion. I could very well be way wrong. I'm just debating here is all. Again, sorry if you were offended.

I do find the American youth a little scary though. I mean, the trend of self absorption due to technology is disturbing. So if that's our future, then who knows what's in store.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: adamzero on November 20, 2007, 01:40:03 AM
I think Kevin's on to something about the historical reaction to Bush 100 years from now.  Even if you disagree with the Neo-Cons they've been able to map out their view of history that we'll be dealing with for the next 100 years.  But they weren't stupid.  The point may not have been to "win" the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan.  It was to be able to deploy hundreds of thousands of troops surrounding Iran, on the border with Syria (surrounding it with Israel) and at China's back door.  If Asia is the future, the U.S. Empire has its foot firmly planted on the continent (in much more strategic areas than Vietnam).  

Of course the U.S. Empire has simply cribbed the playbook of the British Empire and is doing the bidding of the international money/commodities cartels that run the planet.  

That's what makes me so mad about Dylan doing that damned Cadillac Escalade ad!  Our only freedom is weaning ourselves as a nation from foreign credit and oil (and the Escalade, though made in the US, represents everything that's wrong with our gashog, look-how-big-my-car-is culture).  Shame on you, Bob!   Masters of War, my ass!
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Kevin on November 20, 2007, 12:45:29 PM
Bang on Adamzero. Invade the neighbours and surround Iran, force it into a conflict and  arms race it has no hope of winning, decry them as agressors for doing so and invade. There is a beauty to it.
And lets not forget the endless benefits to Isreal. Now it's no longer an Israeli-Palenstine issue, it's "A War On Terror" and the gloves are off.

Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: pc31 on November 22, 2007, 01:57:53 AM
all this corrupt politics gab is getting me excited.....i love the passion and convictions played out at this forum...the variety of countries and politics are a grace...we share information and opinions with out true aggession towards one another(well most times)lol...no other forums i visit has such a cross section of people interacting...consider us lucky....
tomorrow is thanksgiving day...i never really understood this day to be frank...what are the indians thankful for??????i am kidding no debates on that front please....
the truth is american is letting the politicians f*** us out of our rights and we need to nip this ticking time bomb in the butt,so my kids can live in a better not bitter world...i tend to group,like we were taught,group similar things together but on a personal level i make my mind up on individuals not groups....
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: on December 03, 2007, 10:10:09 PM
Quote from: 56

True. I once heard Bill O'Reilly say on TV that a lot of thing are going the wrong way in America and that if they wouldn't be careful, "America could end up just like The Netherlands". I was very insulted when I heard that.

O'Reilly is a right-wing conservative alarmist (and I'm being nice) He hates and fears all thing Liberal. Many Americans cant stand the guy--I count myself among them. Dont fool yourself into thinking he's the mouthpiece of a nation (or for that matter, any of the other Stormtroopers on FoxNews) We know him for what he truly is : a self-promoting, intellectual thug and George Bush defender.

Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: alexis on December 10, 2007, 11:50:29 PM
It's all money. If O'Reilly could have made more money (plus its equivalent in bling and babes, I'm sure) selling the Democratic product, he would have done so.

It's all money. The Republican agenda is to put more money in the hands of the very rich, at the expense of the not very rich (the middle class in the USA is on the way to rapidly becoming of historical interest only). The Democrats at this point know they are against this, but they really don't know much else about themselves or what they stand for. But hey, it's a start.

It's all money.

Signed,

Harihead's favorite politician cum business executive
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Joost on September 08, 2008, 08:26:25 PM
This is from an e-mail I got from my uncle (I obviously translated it though) during his trip through the US (he hired a winnebago and drove from SF to NY).

Quote
We really learned to appreciate Americans these past few weeks. They're very friendly and helpful people and always in for a conversation.

Last Saturday we were in the middle of Memphis and ended up on the wrong side of the road. I had to turn the winnebago in the middle of the road, which took quite a while. But nobody honked, nobody gave me ugly looks, nobody gave me the finger... The only fingers I got were thumbs up when I finally managed to turn the damn thing in the right direction.

I just thought it would be nice if someone posted anything positive about Americans for a change...  ;)
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: fendertele on September 08, 2008, 09:08:31 PM
Yeah from what ive seen, there humour is spot on and the general mood, and most of them are happy to talk too you, which in contrast to scotlands, if you look at someone its " who you looking at " or if you say hello to someone or say anything nice to them you get stupid comments like " are you gay " just for saying awright to another guy  :-/.

Also the irish are lovely people i used to go to ireland and be amazed at the amount of people out walking the streets at night without a care in the world,  walking down the road every car honked there horn when they passed and also strangers would say good morning and hello when you passed them.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Jane on September 08, 2008, 09:37:40 PM
I also agree that Americans are very friendly people. When I was in the USA, everywhere I asked for help (in a bookshop, in the street, at the library) all the people were willing to help. The funny thing was that young men took pains to demonstrate that they meant only help and nothing but help. That was very amusing to me, I wanted to tell them, Relax, guys, I`m not gonna shout!
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Geoff on September 10, 2008, 01:01:50 PM
Quote from: 56
I just thought it would be nice if someone posted anything positive about Americans for a change...  ;)

I think people often inflate a straightforward dislike of particular American policies or administrations into a generalized contempt for America as a whole. It's cheap and easy to do, and will earn you some cachet from leftists and (pseudo) intellectuals, including American ones. But I've lived in America off and on many times over the past twenty years, and Americans as a whole do not conform to the cliches put out about them any more than the citizens of other countries fit the commonplaces circulating about them. Anti-Americanism is just simple resentment or political populism (usually self-servingly opportunistic) masquerading as moral superiority.

Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: The Dude on September 15, 2008, 10:06:41 AM
I've been to the States twice, once to Orlando and once to Vegas. I don't have any problems with American people (except the ones who ask me if I know a friend of theirs in London, 180 miles away from me and believe me, that's happened!) as I've always been treated with respect whilst holidaying.

Among my friends and acquanitances though, America isn't a popular country. There is a lot of anti-American sentiment in the UK, most Brits believe that waging war is America's way of learning geography. I don't tend to subscribe to that theory as I believe that a country's people shouldn't be held responsible for the decisions its government makes.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Bobber on September 15, 2008, 10:14:27 AM
Quote from: 1575
I believe that a country's people shouldn't be held responsible for the decisions its government makes.

That's a debatable statement. Certainly if that particular country has democracy is its main religion.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: BlueMeanie on September 15, 2008, 10:21:56 AM
Quote from: 63

That's a debatable statement. Certainly if that particular country has democracy is its main religion.

Well, that depends on whether it's governing body sticks to the policies that got it elected in the first place.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Bobber on September 15, 2008, 10:27:09 AM
Quote from: 483

Well, that depends on whether it's governing body sticks to the policies that got it elected in the first place.

See. I told you it was debatable.  ;D
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: pc31 on September 15, 2008, 10:46:39 AM
well i wanna just say they are living in a stolen country from the get go...americans came from everywheres else...i bet noone else can boast that!!!
the policies were meant for the strong willed and healthy minded people in the dawning of the country but some how greed and power reshaped us....all i can say is stop the boat i want to get off....
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: BlueMeanie on September 15, 2008, 10:55:50 AM
Quote from: 284
well i wanna just say they are living in a stolen country from the get go...americans came from everywheres else...i bet noone else can boast that!!!

Possibly Australians?
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: pc31 on September 15, 2008, 11:08:05 AM
point well taken but i would say many aussies had no choice in the matter unlike here..... :X
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Joost on September 15, 2008, 11:39:03 AM
New Zealand?
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Bobber on September 15, 2008, 11:46:01 AM
Canada. Hell, even the first Brits may have come from the mainland of Europe.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: pc31 on September 15, 2008, 11:52:19 AM
who has more diverse nationalities???
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: alexis on September 15, 2008, 05:21:28 PM
Quote from: 63

That's a debatable statement. Certainly if that particular country has democracy is its main religion.


And actually since 50.01% of voters decide who gets into office, it really isn't fair to tar all with the same brush (new brush for me please).

And even more actually (  :-/ ), more than 50% of voters voted AGAINST the current president in his first election, so democracy doesn't always have the effect one hopes it would.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Bobber on September 15, 2008, 05:42:30 PM
Quote from: 568
And even more actually (  :-/ ), more than 50% of voters voted AGAINST the current president in his first election, so democracy doesn't always have the effect one hopes it would.

Then your democracy is no democracy at all, I guess.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: alexis on September 15, 2008, 06:18:58 PM
Quote from: 63

Then your democracy is no democracy at all, I guess.

You think? I wouldn't have thought that ours was the only system where a non-majority can direct policy. For example, I think in most countries the Constitution can't be changed by a simple majority, but rather requires "super majority" of the electorate to change it. So I would respectfully disagree that this makes the system overall "no democracy at all".






Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Bobber on September 15, 2008, 06:52:14 PM
On the other hand, maybe there is no real democratic system in the right sense of the word.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: alexis on September 15, 2008, 08:36:06 PM
Quote from: 63
On the other hand, maybe there is no real democratic system in the right sense of the word.


That's probably a good thing, otherwise 2 could always gang up on 1. There's a phrase that floats around now and then, that we all need guaranteed protection from the "tyranny of the majority". In this country that protection is afforded by the Constitution and its Amendments (government can't start its own religion, no slavery, that sort of thing).


Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on September 16, 2008, 12:17:23 AM
Quote from: 1161

I think people often inflate a straightforward dislike of particular American policies or administrations into a generalized contempt for America as a whole. It's cheap and easy to do, and will earn you some cachet from leftists and (pseudo) intellectuals, including American ones. But I've lived in America off and on many times over the past twenty years, and Americans as a whole do not conform to the cliches put out about them any more than the citizens of other countries fit the commonplaces circulating about them. Anti-Americanism is just simple resentment or political populism (usually self-servingly opportunistic) masquerading as moral superiority.


Were you born in the States? Or Canada? For some reason I thought you were an American living in Canada.  But you also seem a bit British! Just curious!  :) :)

Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Geoff on September 16, 2008, 04:09:58 PM
Quote from: 216
Were you born in the States? Or Canada? For some reason I thought you were an American living in Canada.  But you also seem a bit British! Just curious!  :) :)

Sorry if I left the wrong impression: I'm Canadian, in fact.  Most of my family is from the UK (Ireland and Scotland on my mother's side, England and a whole lot of other places on my father's), and I've spent a lot of time on the west coast at various points between Vancouver and Los Angeles. I'm a mongrel and a vagrant, really.  ;D
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on September 17, 2008, 12:34:48 AM
Quote from: 1161

Sorry if I left the wrong impression: I'm Canadian, in fact.  Most of my family is from the UK (Ireland and Scotland on my mother's side, England and a whole lot of other places on my father's), and I've spent a lot of time on the west coast at various points between Vancouver and Los Angeles. I'm a mongrel and a vagrant, really.  ;D

Ah. I've just wondered. But the Canadian/British spellings kind of gave it away! Thanks for answering as it was a bit personal!  :)

Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Geoff on September 17, 2008, 01:50:08 AM
Quote from: 216
Ah. I've just wondered. But the Canadian/British spellings kind of gave it away! Thanks for answering as it was a bit personal!  :)

No problem: it's not personal in a bad way.  :)

Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Bill Harry on September 17, 2008, 12:36:10 PM
Strange, because growing up in Liverpool there was a lot of all things American and the kids loved 'the Yanks' who were stationed in Burtonwood, many of them marrying British girls. Then there were the Cunard Yanks, one of them comments:
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: alexis on September 17, 2008, 03:42:31 PM
Hi Bill!

Thanks for the perspective. My, the people you've met. Has anyone ever written a book called "In My Life"? I think you deserve the title!

I have heard that NYC and Liverpool are very much alike, and that is one of the things that drew John to NYC. People on both sides have been described as gruff on the outside, but loving and caring on the inside, they are both large ports. Have you ever spent a long period of time in NYC? Do you agree with this?

Thanks :-)
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Bill Harry on September 18, 2008, 11:13:48 AM
I loved New York, although we've only been there twice. Originally we went over with a number of groups and stayed with Led Zeppelin at Loews Middtown Motor Inn. We used to go to an English bar nearby and a club in the evening, where I bumped into our old friend Jimi Hendrix for the last time. We then went around with Ten Years After to the gigs at a venue the Fillmore East and were also with Jethro Tull. Then we went to the Newport Jazz Festival with Zeppelin and Jeff Beck. Then we went to Philadelphia with Zeppelin and Savoy Brown to appear at the Spectrum Bowl. But I really got to know NY a couple of years ago when 1964 invited us across to attend a Carnegie hall concert, we met up with some friends Tony Bramwell and May Pang. Virginia and I took one of those sight-seeing buses that took us all round the city. Virginia also loved the shopping and we went to Bloomingdales etc. Another friend, Rusty, who has a tribute band, took us out for a meal in Chinatown, having a tour of greenwich Village on the way
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: BlueMeanie on September 18, 2008, 11:26:59 AM
^Just another normal day then! ;D
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: pc31 on September 19, 2008, 12:24:45 AM
if you remember the romans had a democracy in the beginning and even alexander the great they said was big on it...it seems to utimately fail....it is said that thomas jefferson took the idea of the constitution from the iroqui indians but he left out the council of women and that of the elders,which meant all factions of a nation were reprsented in government...because those savage indians were well into democracy and it worked and was working well until....well thats another story...a type of genocide in some opinions...but if all the needs don't get some attention someone who is doing without will not be happy...and in democratic dominions everybody are never happy..so does the system work??????the only way to whip the sh*t out of this depression on the world is world unification...put religion on the side burner and work on a better world for our kids,because the should have a chance to f*** up like we did....in fact we could sterilize them and help out...kidding peeps...chill...world unity maybe we could give them acorns..oh john and yoko tried that didn't they.....
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Ligger on September 19, 2008, 11:00:04 AM
I hitchhiked across America between my college sophomore and junior years, in 1973. What an eye-opening experience.

People outside NYC were very friendly and open. I got lots of invitations from the folks who gave me rides to stay at their homes. One lady was part of a commune in Kansas. Her room mates had all been busted at a festival in Canada, so she let me and my traveling companion spend a few nights on her farm. Very generous.

There were lots of stories like that. On the way back home to NYC, the van I was riding in broke down and we were stuck in Salt Lake City for three days. A university student there befriended us and suggested staying at the dorms. She and I exchanged addresses when I left. She eventually moved to NY and we became a couple for five years.

Liverpool people seemed cut from the same cloth. When I spent time there in the late eighties, I never had to spend more than a night or two at a hotel. The folks that I met in pubs near the Art College told me that I was foolish to waste my money like that when they had empty sofas in their living rooms.

What a friendly bunch of Scousers they were.

By the way, Bill, I believe I met you for the first time the night the Jeff Beck Group (with Rod Stewart and Ronnie Wood) played the Fillmore East. Jethro Tull opened for them and I was taking photos. You gave me your business card and asked me to call you if the Tull shots turned out well. I think Jimmy Page was backstage that night, too.

A few nights later Led Zeppelin joined Beck's group onstage at the Singer Bowl for quite an intense once in a lifetime jam. One of my shots from that show was used for the original "Beckology" box set booklet.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Bill Harry on September 19, 2008, 12:50:24 PM
Dear Ligger,
Yes, we did meet that night. New York to me was a different place than it was on my second trip. What I remember most was  going out to the English pub in the evening and the nightclub at night. I forget the name of the club. I remember we had groupies banging on our bedroom door! Bonzo accomodated them. There was a swimming pool on the roof, but you had to wear a bathing cap. Late at night when we wanted a drink I went to reception and asked where I could get a bottle of whiskey. The receptionist laughed and said I wouldn't be able to get a drink anywhere in New York at that time of night. I went to the club, it was closed, but I knocked on the door. They knew me from Zeppelin and the other groups and gave me a free bottle of whiskey - as i went back to the hotel I waved the bottle to the receptionist. I remember there were a lot of groupies at the club. A chap with short hair came up to me, pleased to see me. I realised it was jimi Hendrix and he'd had his hair cut. People had intimated that New york was a dangerous place then and I had to be careful. I was walking across the road by myself when a little old lady stopped me and asked if I could help her to her apartment. I did, taking her down small side streets to her home. I never felt any danger at all in New york although that was the time they were calling it 'kill city' or something.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: duane v on September 20, 2008, 04:07:09 PM
Not to put a damper on this thread, but the division that exists on this planet just astounds me :confused: You would swear planets like ours (with prime realestate to house intelligent life) are a dime a dozen in our own solar system.

We (as humans) will be the death of this planet:(
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Geoff on September 20, 2008, 04:53:00 PM
Quote from: 1583
We (as humans) will be the death of this planet:(

Personally I'm convinced that the planet will survive; we humans on the other hand are another matter.

Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: alexis on September 20, 2008, 07:02:38 PM
Quote from: 1583
Not to put a damper on this thread, but the division that exists on this planet just astounds me :confused: You would swear planets like ours (with prime realestate to house intelligent life) are a dime a dozen in our own solar system.

We (as humans) will be the death of this planet:(

It's reassuring to think that people like Bonzo and his friends are always ready to do their bit to actually bring people together (referencing Bill Harry's thread above)  ;)

Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on September 25, 2008, 05:18:05 AM
Quote from: 1161

Personally I'm convinced that the planet will survive; we humans on the other hand are another matter.


Uh yeah. The earth has survived through much worse than whatever we can throw at it. It's pretty arrogant of us to think we'll be the ones to destroy it! It'll be here long after the human race has annihilated themselves.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Geoff on September 26, 2008, 01:13:25 PM
Quote from: 216

Uh yeah. The earth has survived through much worse than whatever we can throw at it. It's pretty arrogant of us to think we'll be the ones to destroy it! It'll be here long after the human race has annihilated themselves.

If the human race annihilates itself: I'm not quite sold on that proposition, either, despite the best efforts of a not small number of lunatics and a long tradition of same.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: on October 30, 2008, 05:21:09 PM
to start a new thread of interest, most normal people have many stereotypes for Americans,yet at the same time we know that 55%of Americans don't fit into one of these stereotypes.the most common stereotype is "the bush/ palin voting hillbilly evangelical Christian racist warmonger". i would just ignore these anti Americans, who probably make up about 5% of the UK population. i think their Anti us perception stems from the INCORRECT belief that less well educated rural/small town Americans are awful at geography outside their own borders, and that they have little knowledge of foreign cultures.anti Americans seem to believe that "the bush/ palin voting hillbilly evangelical Christian racist warmonger" believes all non americans are a national stereotype . MOST RATIONAL BRITISH PEOPLE DO NOT SUBSCRIBE TO THIS BLATANT STEREOTYPING. HONEST!
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Jane on October 31, 2008, 10:15:55 PM
All stereotypes are false and misleading.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on October 31, 2008, 11:57:05 PM
Quote from: 1588
the most common stereotype is "the bush/ palin voting hillbilly evangelical Christian racist warmonger".


That's the most common stereotype? Good lord. How is is that I've never met one person like that in my entire life? I've never even known a person who owned a gun much less be the type who loves war. I've met a couple of born agains, but they were very loving and completely harmless. As for the Bush/Palin thing, I have a few members in my family who will be voting for them unfortunately, but they're far from hillbillys. They're just misguided. Of course that's what they think of me too, but oh well.  :-/

The stereotype that annoys me most is the one where we're all fat and stupid. Or that we're too dumb to understand the oh so complex humor of the British. I mean, come on. I've gotten to the point where I laugh at these insults now. It was either that or quit YouTube and IMDB because man are there a lot of anti-American British people on those boards. And they get VERY nasty over absolutely nothing. Which I find odd.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: python on November 01, 2008, 12:05:48 AM
im not anti american.i just hate Bush.not all brits are anti.are we being stereotyped?ive talked to alot of americans on various forums and found them great.but maybe,thats cause we have something in common,ie beatles.i dont know.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on November 01, 2008, 12:09:55 AM
Quote from: 1610
im not anti american.i just hate Bush.not all brits are anti.are we being stereotyped?ive talked to alot of americans on various forums and found them great.but maybe,thats cause we have something in common,ie beatles.i dont know.

I'm not saying all are at all! I'm saying there are A LOT of them on those two forums. Don't know exactly why that is though.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: python on November 01, 2008, 12:21:36 AM
No,not sure myself.But,lets all not get carried away on here.Intelligent discussion is fine.General slagging off is not.And thats not aimed at you Sandra,or anyone in particular.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on November 01, 2008, 12:25:37 AM
Quote from: 1610
No,not sure myself.But,lets all not get carried away on here.Intelligent discussion is fine.General slagging off is not.And thats not aimed at you Sandra,or anyone in particular.

This forum is pretty good at not getting carried away. Everyone here is usually very nice and can discuss these things without freaking out. So refreshing. Of course there are the occasional "bad eggs" every now and then, but it keeps it lively I guess!  :)

Anyway, it used to bum me out so much because the Brits are so cool and it was depressing finding out that there was this sort of hatred and disgust for Americans. But of course you realize it's only a small percentage and they're just the ones that happened to be most vocal on those particular sites. At least that's what I keep telling myself.  ;) I suppose this goes for the rest of the world too. We're not too popular at the moment. I'm nervous about the election. I can only imagine what's gonna be thought of us if McCain wins!  ??)
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: python on November 01, 2008, 12:29:14 AM
Yeah,very true.I havent been on the forum long enough to witness anyone being nasty,but of course,this could happen on any forum,anywhere.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Kevin on November 01, 2008, 12:32:23 PM
This a sketch from a show called Harry and paul. I think it's quite an affectionate look at how Brits view americans (and takes as much p*ss out of english reserve as it does out of percieved american openess and naivity (sp) )
Z4er0rZjB0Y (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4er0rZjB0Y)
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Geoff on November 01, 2008, 01:13:51 PM
Quote from: 216
As for the Bush/Palin thing, I have a few members in my family who will be voting for them.

I have some Republican relatives as well. Essentially they think that people are better off looking after themselves than having government (try) to do it for them. The Sarah Palin/evangelical wing of the Republican Party worries them only slightly less than Barney Frank, though.

Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Jane on November 01, 2008, 10:18:34 PM
It`s just that Brits are much cuter, much more sophisticated, and I`ve seen a lot more handsome people in London than in Washington (especially) and in New York. Where are all those good-looking Americans? Maybe on the West Coast? Maybe they prefer to stay home and attend only closed parties? That`s why we don`t see them. And they say it`s very hard to get into a certain community in the USA. The higher the social class is the harder for a person to get accepted there even if he meets the requirements. Is it true?
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: python on November 01, 2008, 10:26:24 PM
Jane,thats what i like to hear.About the Brits.We do have a big class thing here.Some people just dont want to know.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: alexis on November 02, 2008, 01:37:59 AM
Quote from: 185
This a sketch from a show called Harry and paul. I think it's quite an affectionate look at how Brits view americans (and takes as much p*ss out of english reserve as it does out of percieved american openess and naivity (sp) )
Z4er0rZjB0Y ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4er0rZjB0Y[/url])



I don't perceive the warm fuzzy feelings of affection here, looks like just a typical example of smug stereotyping to me! Kind of makes the point Sandra did, in my mind (not to make any interpretations on her behalf)  :)
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Jane on November 03, 2008, 09:40:12 PM
Quote from: 1610
Jane,thats what i like to hear.About the Brits.We do have a big class thing here.Some people just dont want to know.

Where is class division more distinct, in the USA or in Britain? We are told that the US society is rich, Americans` incomes are 20-30 percent above those in Europe or Japan. But it is also the most unequal concerning the richest part of society and the poorest. The gap between the richest and the poorest in Europe is narrower.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: python on November 03, 2008, 09:59:00 PM
i dont know a great deal about the class thing in the States,but i can imagine what you say is true,jane.its bad enough in the UK,but if its worse ,across the pond,and it sounds like it is,then its BAD.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on November 04, 2008, 01:42:36 AM
Quote from: 185
This a sketch from a show called Harry and paul. I think it's quite an affectionate look at how Brits view americans (and takes as much p*ss out of english reserve as it does out of percieved american openess and naivity (sp) )
Z4er0rZjB0Y ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4er0rZjB0Y[/url])


That's pretty funny. "Good luck with being gay Peter!" Heh. I think it's more a stereotype of Mid-Westerners or senior citizens though. But boy did they belabor the point! I agree though, we do say "how are you" quite a lot. Every time I pass someone at work that's pretty much the required greeting. How come they forgot to put in a couple dozen "have a nice days" in there?
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on November 04, 2008, 01:49:05 AM
Quote from: 568


I don't perceive the warm fuzzy feelings of affection here, looks like just a typical example of smug stereotyping to me! Kind of makes the point Sandra did, in my mind (not to make any interpretations on her behalf)  :)


It's all in good fun I suppose. We do the same kind of lampooning on shows like The Simpsons or South Park. Ever see how they portray the Brits on those shows? But then, those are cartoons.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Penny Lane on November 04, 2008, 01:52:07 AM
Quote from: 185
This a sketch from a show called Harry and paul. I think it's quite an affectionate look at how Brits view americans (and takes as much p*ss out of english reserve as it does out of percieved american openess and naivity (sp) )

What you wrote reminded me of a British woman I met at a place I used to work.  She came in one day and talked to us, and my coworkers and I were oohing and ahhing at her English accent.  We thought it sounded so lovely so we couldn't help ourselves, and we came right out and told her, "We love your accent!"

Then I asked her, "Do the English like American accents as well?"

She smiled and said to me, "Yes, they do, but they would probably be too reserved to tell you so."  I thought that was a very interesting reply since it did seem to underscore our cultural differences.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on November 04, 2008, 01:52:48 AM
Quote from: 1393
The higher the social class is the harder for a person to get accepted there even if he meets the requirements. Is it true?

Nope. Not true at all. Class boundaries here are outdated. The fact that anyone can work hard and become wealthy has pretty much broken down those boundaries. There may be a few old money bitties hanging on to the class thing, but they're a dying bread. I don't think it's anywhere near as prevalent as in England where people even class a person by accent. Or at least they used to. But maybe it's getting better there too. As things usually do as people become more enlightened and old, stuffy traditions die out.

At any rate, I think you're way off on your perception of how things work here. I'm not sure where you got the impression, but it's not very accurate. At least from my perspective. Maybe others see if differently. Other Americans.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Jane on November 04, 2008, 05:39:40 PM
Sandra, do you mean that the American Dream is still alive? Well, in terms of making money and becoming quite rich, yes. But what I mean is if such a person can get admission to the elite, which certainly exists. He/she may consider themselves to be upper-class, but they may not have crossed the boundaries and got accepted by the upper-class people. So, there may not be distinct class division in the USA on the whole, as I`ve said, but the richest part, the elite, is extremely rich and guards against newcomers. There are pretty many articles on the subject written by Americans themselves. One of them appeared in Newsweek, as far as I remember.
Another question, if I got you right, there are classes but no boundaries and one can move easily from a lower class to an upper class? And can ordinary people bring their children to the school you are working at now? I understand it`s a private school.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on November 04, 2008, 08:26:04 PM
Quote from: 1393
Sandra, do you mean that the American Dream is still alive? Well, in terms of making money and becoming quite rich, yes. But what I mean is if such a person can get admission to the elite, which certainly exists. He/she may consider themselves to be upper-class, but they may not have crossed the boundaries and got accepted by the upper-class people. So, there may not be distinct class division in the USA on the whole, as I`ve said, but the richest part, the elite, is extremely rich and guards against newcomers. There are pretty many articles on the subject written by Americans themselves. One of them appeared in Newsweek, as far as I remember.
Another question, if I got you right, there are classes but no boundaries and one can move easily from a lower class to an upper class? And can ordinary people bring their children to the school you are working at now? I understand it`s a private school.

Yes, we have a lot of families who get financial aid and scholarships. And those families are welcomed in all social circles. We also have the children do community service at every grade and many of the parents expand it at home. We have adopted a special needs school now for years as well and provide them with turkeys for Thanksgiving, presents for the holidays, and food and supplies every single week. There's nothing elitest going on here as far as I can see. So, I just don't see it from your perspective. It's one thing to read about it, but another thing to experience it first hand. The only elite that guard against newcomers are, like I said, some of the old timers who like to hold on to outdated traditions. And even that's changed. But what do I know.

Oh yeah, and when do you think the American Dream died? As frar as I know, people in every free country can work hard and get ahead. That's all the dream ever was. Pretty simple. But I can see you have a pretty set view of how things are over here, so I won't belabor the point.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Jane on November 04, 2008, 09:24:24 PM
What makes you think I have a pretty set view about your things? If I had one I wouldn`t have asked questions. All my points are based only on the articles I read in American and British newspapers. And these are not tabloids. I am not challenging your statement that in every free country people work hard and get ahead, that is clear. I wasn`t speaking about that, which you might have thought. Then you didn`t get me right. And don`t get offended I was asking innocent questions and was being just curious since I am not an American. By the way, in any country the elite won`t let any outsiders in. So, actually there`s nothing to argue about. Don`t you think so, Sandra?
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on November 05, 2008, 02:00:42 AM
Quote from: 1393
What makes you think I have a pretty set view about your things? If I had one I wouldn`t have asked questions. All my points are based only on the articles I read in American and British newspapers. And these are not tabloids. I am not challenging your statement that in every free country people work hard and get ahead, that is clear. I wasn`t speaking about that, which you might have thought. Then you didn`t get me right. And don`t get offended I was asking innocent questions and was being just curious since I am not an American. By the way, in any country the elite won`t let any outsiders in. So, actually there`s nothing to argue about. Don`t you think so, Sandra?

I wasn't offended and I wasn't arguing. I was discussing. I guess I thought that's what you were going for. A discussion. But your views did seem pretty set. That's just the way it came off in your post. If not, then I apologize for the assumption. You say you're just asking innocent questions, but you do state things in a rather deliberate and provacative way. I think the American dream has more to do than just becoming filthy rich. It's to get ahead, to give your kids better than you had. Things any normal person strives for. No?
And I guess I don't know what you mean by elite because I'm not sure who these people are that have the power to keep others out. I'm not sure who these outsiders are either for that  matter.

So what exactly do you percieve as being the American Dream by the way? Since I was off on that one too. Just an innocent question here.

Here's the definition:
The American Dream is belief in the freedom that allows all citizens and residents of the United States to pursue their goals in life through hard work and bravery. Today, it often refers to one's material prosperity, which is dependent upon one's abilities and work ethic, and not on a rigid class structure.

Although the phrase's meaning has evolved over the course of American history, for some people, it is the opportunity to achieve greater material prosperity than was possible in their countries of origin. For others it is the opportunity for their children to grow up and receive an education and its consequent career opportunities. It is the opportunity to make individual choices without the restrictions of class, caste, religion, race, or ethnic group.

That's a big reason why a lot of people came/come to this country. To escape the class wars. Yes, it exists on some level, but no where near what I think your article implied. But again, that is only my very limited perspective. Hope you're not offended. Just trying to answer your questions is all. If I may.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Jane on November 05, 2008, 07:52:50 PM
Quote from: 1393
Sandra, do you mean that the American Dream is still alive? Well, in terms of making money and becoming quite rich, yes. But what I mean is if such a person can get admission to the elite, which certainly exists. He/she may consider themselves to be upper-class, but they may not have crossed the boundaries and got accepted by the upper-class people. So, there may not be distinct class division in the USA on the whole, as I`ve said, but the richest part, the elite, is extremely rich and guards against newcomers. There are pretty many articles on the subject written by Americans themselves. One of them appeared in Newsweek, as far as I remember.
Another question, if I got you right, there are classes but no boundaries and one can move easily from a lower class to an upper class? And can ordinary people bring their children to the school you are working at now? I understand it`s a private school.

You are being unfair to me. Are these deliberate statements on my part, as you say? Are they provocative? Look at my post, at all these questions and "if" clauses and "may be" sentenses! These can`t be statements even, I was asking you for information, cause it`s one thing what newspapers write and quite another thing what people living there know and experience. Do you mean I can`t ask any questions about your country? Why, Sandra? And I would like to learn things.
I sincerely apologise for my questions and now understand that American society is a classless society with welcoming Elite = a group that is of higher level or rank, professionally, socially and that has a great deal of power or influence in relation to its size. Sorry.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: alexis on November 05, 2008, 07:58:49 PM
Please don't forget to at least mention the Julius Marx* paradigm of class and upward social mobility in these United States:

"I want nothing to do with any club that would have me as a member"!


* aka Groucho Marx  :)
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on November 06, 2008, 12:45:48 AM
Quote from: 1393

You are being unfair to me. Are these deliberate statements on my part, as you say? Are they provocative? Look at my post, at all these questions and "if" clauses and "may be" sentenses! These can`t be statements even, I was asking you for information, cause it`s one thing what newspapers write and quite another thing what people living there know and experience. Do you mean I can`t ask any questions about your country? Why, Sandra? And I would like to learn things.
I sincerely apologise for my questions and now understand that American society is a classless society with welcoming Elite = a group that is of higher level or rank, professionally, socially and that has a great deal of power or influence in relation to its size. Sorry.

I was only stating how I was perceiving your posts Jane. You made a couple of statements that seemed to me a bit tongue and cheek such as "Sandra, do you mean that the American Dream is still alive? Well, in terms of making money and becoming quite rich, yes." and the one you just made in the above post: "and now understand that American society is a classless society with welcoming Elite" To me, these statements sound a bit facetious and I was only responding in kind. And I believe I said if I was mistaken, then I apologize.  BTW, I know what elite means. I don't know who in America you're specifically referring to. All rich? Certain rich? Highly educated people? I'm just not sure.

About America being a classless society, I don't believe I ever said such a thing and was only giving an opinion based on my experience as an American. Which is what I thought you were asking for. There's no need to get so upset. This is only a discussion. I'm being direct with you because I respect you. And no where did I state you could not ask questions about any country. Ask away, but be prepared for different kinds of responses. I could veil my answers with a lot of happy faces and sweet talk too if that would be more politically correct, but I think we're above that. I hope we can continue to have discussions in the future, but if I have offended you and you'd prefer not, I'll respect that.  :)
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Jane on November 06, 2008, 08:53:53 PM
The reason why I asked about the American Dream is that commonly it is associated with the early 20th century, when many immigrants came to the USA to take the chance of becoming rich and successful. It`s a fact of history. You see the Dream doesn`t imply only hard work, it mostly implies a CHANCE, not missing a chance. (I wonder if Americans themselves know about the Dream.) A century has passed, and it is logical to ask if it is still alive. Nothing to read between the lines about. Now, I think, the rule works in many countries, if not all, but it implies working hard, as times have changed. But maybe in the USA it is more realizable? Maybe it is easier for newcomers to succeed there? Since it is called a country of immigrants. By the way, can you agree with that statement? It wasn`t I who coined the phrase. But do you accept it? I am just interested.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: DaveRam on November 07, 2008, 02:11:58 AM
You don't have to be an immigrant to succeed in America look what four young men from Liverpool did ?
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on November 07, 2008, 02:31:37 AM
Quote from: 1393
The reason why I asked about the American Dream is that commonly it is associated with the early 20th century, when many immigrants came to the USA to take the chance of becoming rich and successful. It`s a fact of history. You see the Dream doesn`t imply only hard work, it mostly implies a CHANCE, not missing a chance. (I wonder if Americans themselves know about the Dream.) A century has passed, and it is logical to ask if it is still alive. Nothing to read between the lines about. Now, I think, the rule works in many countries, if not all, but it implies working hard, as times have changed. But maybe in the USA it is more realizable? Maybe it is easier for newcomers to succeed there? Since it is called a country of immigrants. By the way, can you agree with that statement? It wasn`t I who coined the phrase. But do you accept it? I am just interested.


I think every American knows about the American Dream, but it's interpreted differently by people. Believe me, we learn about it. I mean, every kid starts every day at school with the Pledge of Allegiance and it goes from there. So the notion of the American Dream is alive and well. Of course it basically means opportunity. I think a lot of anger from lower income families comes from the feeling that they're being kept from achieving this dream. So yeah, people all know about it, but not everyone takes advantage of it. Even though we all can. I used to repeat this to my students when I worked for L.A. Unified. They need to know it's possible. Break the cycle. But that's a whole different discussion.

And do I agree with the statement that this is a country of immigrants? Well, considering that I'm only second generation, yes, I agree with it. This country was made by the hard work and labor of immigrants and continues to grow in the same way. Most Americans have roots in "the old country." But we're still all Americans. Mostly.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: alexis on November 07, 2008, 04:35:37 AM
I think the concept of the American Dream just got a vitamin shot with a black man elected President.

And, probably "anti-Americanism" just went down around the world as well, if the headlines are to be believed.

 :)
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: An Apple Beatle on November 07, 2008, 05:01:43 AM
^Not hard with war-monger Bush on the way out. He had the monopoly on it! lol

(churchill)
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on November 07, 2008, 05:10:31 AM
Quote from: 568

And, probably "anti-Americanism" just went down around the world as well, if the headlines are to be believed.

 :)


Doubtful. Check out this interview with the Doors from 1969. Listen to the part about the the kids in Europe. It's interesting. But I guess back then it was Vietnam causing it. It's always something.

YB_Vw9k0aIw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YB_Vw9k0aIw)
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Jane on November 07, 2008, 07:31:18 PM
Quote from: 971
You don't have to be an immigrant to succeed in America look what four young men from Liverpool did ?

The four guys succeeded worldwide.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Jane on November 07, 2008, 10:14:08 PM
Yes, Sandra, this is called equality of opportunity. I think Europe is more rigid in this respect with a more strictly structured class system and less possibility to move class. Though hard work can always promote one...However, it all depends on a person and his/her aims in life. Maybe, the aim is spiritual advancement rather than material success. Is it true that one of the American values is material success?
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Penny Lane on November 08, 2008, 04:41:20 AM
Quote from: 1393
Is it true that one of the American values is material success?

For some Americans, yes--which is probably one of the reasons why people are in debt.  Some people just love their flashy cars, big flat-screen TV's and fancy cell phones, even if they can't really afford those things.  But this is not true for every American, of course.  It just depends on who you are and where your priorities lie.

Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on November 08, 2008, 05:40:42 AM
Quote
Is it true that one of the American values is material success?

This doesn't exist anywhere else? Please. Remember Imelda Marcos and all her shoes? How about as far back as Marie AAntoinette and the whole "let them eat cake" BS. Materialism certainly wasn't invented in the United States. I think many people in the free world are guilty of this. Not just the Americans.  ::)

Everyone's values are different. Please view us as individuals and not as one giant entity. That's certainly not my value and it's a bit insulting to imply that this is a core value of the entire nation. A nation of 301,139,947 individuals.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on November 08, 2008, 05:43:27 AM
Quote from: 1620

For some Americans, yes--which is probably one of the reasons why people are in debt.  Some people just love their flashy cars, big flat-screen TV's and fancy cell phones, even if they can't really afford those things.  But this is not true for every American, of course.  It just depends on who you are and where your priorities lie.


Some people are in debt because of medical expenses or because they had to take out loans to fund their education or a million other reasons. It's not always because they needed a flashy car.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: An Apple Beatle on November 08, 2008, 07:16:38 AM
I reckon some of the stereotyping comes/came from shows such as the O.C. , Dallas, Dynasty, Sex & the City, Reality progs etc. Maybe that leaves impressions of a nation in peoples minds?

Not trying to get too serious. We got Coronation Street, Eastenders & Hollyoaks amongst our efforts in the UK.  ;D
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on November 08, 2008, 07:33:46 AM
Quote from: 15
I reckon some of the stereotyping comes/came from shows such as the O.C. , Dallas, Dynasty, Sex & the City, Reality progs etc. Maybe that leaves impressions of a nation in peoples minds?

Not trying to get too serious. We got Coronation Street, Eastenders & Hollyoaks amongst our efforts in the UK.  ;D

Who would base their opinions of a nation based on shows made for the sole purpose of entertainment? And there have been just as many shows depicting the working class over the years as well. If not more. So what, does that mean people only choose to focus on the negative portrayals then? Then I'd question the mentality going on if that's the case.

BTW, the shows you mentioned are so obviously exaggerated. I mean do the uber rich actually  have mud fights in fountains wearing their best sequence dresses and diamonds?  ??)
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: An Apple Beatle on November 08, 2008, 08:21:14 AM
I think your missing the point. I'm just saying it must have a bearing (Some of the stereotyping). TV is still the main form of media in the world no? Especially the last 50/60 years. I'd say a lot of under 30's do base their opinions of a nation from TV. Sad but true.

Dallas & Dynasty were dated descriptions but at one time broadcast in almost as many languages as the bible. From youngster to oldster, TV is where a lot of opinion is formed subliminally or not I'm afraid to say.

They don't seem to franchise the American working class shows round the world though? I can't think of an example. I dunno..I'm only suggesting not implying. Obviously still grates you, so I'll say no more as I think we have been here before and I'm too fleeting to write comprehensive theorums on it all. It really dosn't bother me that much.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: An Apple Beatle on November 08, 2008, 08:30:05 AM
Actually, would My Name Is Earl be considered working class? I love that show.....I'll go on...Wonder Years (When I was a kid) Different Strokes, Cosby Show, The Fall Guy, The A-Team were all faves....Revealing my age more. heheheh

Not out to vex you or America Sandra, I obviously miss points too. :)
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on November 08, 2008, 09:17:24 AM
Quote from: 15
I think your missing the point. I'm just saying it must have a bearing (Some of the stereotyping). TV is still the main form of media in the world no? Especially the last 50/60 years. I'd say a lot of under 30's do base their opinions of a nation from TV. Sad but true.

Dallas & Dynasty were dated descriptions but at one time broadcast in almost as many languages as the bible. From youngster to oldster, TV is where a lot of opinion is formed subliminally or not I'm afraid to say.

They don't seem to franchise the American working class shows round the world though? I can't think of an example. I dunno..I'm only suggesting not implying. Obviously still grates you, so I'll say no more as I think we have been here before and I'm too fleeting to write comprehensive theorums on it all. It really dosn't bother me that much.
It  doesn't bother me. I enjoy discussing it because it gives me a better understanding of where people are coming from. And basically, I'm only giving my own point of view on things, so it's not like I believe whatever I say is complete fact. Just my take on things. I don't know, I enjoy these discussions, but people always seem to get annoyed so easily or think I'm annoyed or that I'm trying to aggravate them. Which I'm not! I just find this topic fascinating. That's all. Just trying to understand it. People can tell me to shut up if they want. I'll do whatever it is that pleases you...  ;)

BTW, I see your point about television tainting people's opinions of other cultures/countries. I know this happens. I just think the people who do form opinions based solely on tv shows are a bit ignorant and somewhat lazy. This goes for people of any country. It's the same thing as making sweeping generalizations about entire nations of people based on what others have told them instead of actual experiences with the people in question. I cannot TELL you how many times I have heard or read the sentence: Americans are fat and stupid and know nothing about other countries. Or something similar. Yeah, that does irk me. It's ignorant. I wonder how many Americans those people have actually interacted with. And they should look around at the people in their own backyard. Have they no fatties or dummies themselves?? I mean, to label and entire nation in such a way? And now it's the whole materialistic thing too? ALL humans have these flaws! That's the problem. We always want to separate ourselves when really we're all basically the same.

And while we're on the subject of historical ignorance, what up with that Churchill poll? Should I now believe all Brits are ignorant of their own history or should I take it with a grain of salt and realize that THE MEDIA SPINS! They're always going to run with the most sensationalized story and most of the time it's the least accurate. I hate those 24 hour bogus news channels and newspapers that dabble in entertainment news. They've really poisoned a lot of people. Again, this is just my opinion. I'll shut up now.  :B

Report: 1 in 4 Britons Think Winston Churchill Never Existed
Daily Mail | 2-4-08 | Rebecca Camber

One in four Britons don't believe wartime Prime Minister Winston Churchill existed, according to a recent survey. Churchill is compared to Florence Nightingale and Sir Walter Raleigh, seen by many survey respondents as a mythical person, the London Daily Mail reported Monday. The survey, conducted with 3,000 respondents to test their general knowledge, reported other historical figures such as Indian leader Mahatma Gandhi, Cleopatra and the Duke of Wellington were made up for books and films, the Mail reported. The survey, by UKTV Gold, also found that Sherlock Holmes was a real person.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: An Apple Beatle on November 08, 2008, 09:38:34 AM
^ Heheh..well you disprove the fat & stupid theory yourself Sandra. ;)

That Daily Mail thing is hilarious! The only myth is the media myth. lol
Totally agree with you, I do keep thinking I'm winding you up when I don't mean to...and yes we are all the same.

Let's have a beer and talk Beatles instead. (beer) heheh
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: DaveRam on November 08, 2008, 10:06:22 AM
Not many British people know Churchill's mother was an American .
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: BlueMeanie on November 08, 2008, 10:45:11 AM
Quote from: 971
Not many British people know Churchill's mother was an American .

Even the national anthem is sung to an American tune.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: An Apple Beatle on November 08, 2008, 11:16:39 AM
Quote from: 483

Even the national anthem is sung to an American tune.

No! Not according to Wickipedia. It's ours...all ours! lol

It's so old, they have all forgotten where it originated.  ;D
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: python on November 08, 2008, 11:59:51 AM
Well,I know who Churchill is.He was,in my opinion,a great leader in the War,but got elected out in the next election.The people didnt want a Tory  in any more and rightly so.And .Sherlock Holmes as a real person.That one made me laugh.
The National Anthem should be changed.Its all about the Queen,anyway.Jerusalem,would be better.
Time for Brit bashing now,is it?
Im not really a patriot as such,but dumbing us down,isnt really on.Im not a imperialist nor do I wish for a return to the days of the British Empire(as if it could happen,anyway).Im proud of my working class roots and I want the workers to stand together,no matter what country they live in.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: pc31 on November 08, 2008, 06:07:17 PM
Quote from: 483

Even the national anthem is sung to an American tune.
rick is right it was yours first.......
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: alexis on November 08, 2008, 06:45:54 PM
Quote from: 284
rick is right it was yours first.......


Isn't ours (USA) based on an old British drinking tune?
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Penny Lane on November 08, 2008, 08:02:52 PM
Quote from: 216

Some people are in debt because of medical expenses or because they had to take out loans to fund their education or a million other reasons. It's not always because they needed a flashy car.

Yes, I do know that.  That is why in my post I said:  "For some Americans, yes--which is probably one of the reasons why people are in debt."  Not all debts come from frivolous spending.  I was just referring to people who continue to live beyond their means by wanting to "keep up with the Joneses."

 ;) ;)

Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on November 08, 2008, 08:14:51 PM
Quote from: 1610
Well,I know who Churchill is.He was,in my opinion,a great leader in the War,but got elected out in the next election.The people didnt want a Tory  in any more and rightly so.And .Sherlock Holmes as a real person.That one made me laugh.
The National Anthem should be changed.Its all about the Queen,anyway.Jerusalem,would be better.
Time for Brit bashing now,is it?
.

I posted that article as an example of how the media can spin things. NOT to bash. Which I stated when I posted it. But I do notice that people don't get nearly as upset when articles against Americans are posted.

And the article is just silly. Who knows who they polled and if the people even answered accurately.  It wouldn't surprise me if some of the people purposely answered wrong just to mess with the pollsters for bothering to ask them such stupid questions in the first place. British humor you know. I mean just this sentence makes me suspect:

The survey, by UKTV Gold, also found that Sherlock Holmes was a real person.

I mean come on. That's hysterical.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on November 08, 2008, 08:16:00 PM
Quote from: 1620

Yes, I do know that.  That is why in my post I said:  "For some Americans, yes--which is probably one of the reasons why people are in debt."  Not all debts come from frivolous spending.  I was just referring to people who continue to live beyond their means by wanting to "keep up with the Joneses."

 ;) ;)


Of course. And I was just adding to it just to clarify. Just trying to keep things fair.  :)
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Jane on November 08, 2008, 10:28:42 PM
Quote from: 216
It  doesn't bother me. I enjoy discussing it because it gives me a better understanding of where people are coming from. And basically, I'm only giving my own point of view on things, so it's not like I believe whatever I say is complete fact. Just my take on things. I don't know, I enjoy these discussions, but people always seem to get annoyed so easily or think I'm annoyed or that I'm trying to aggravate them. Which I'm not! I just find this topic fascinating. That's all. Just trying to understand it. People can tell me to shut up if they want. I'll do whatever it is that pleases you...  ;)

BTW, I see your point about television tainting people's opinions of other cultures/countries. I know this happens. I just think the people who do form opinions based solely on tv shows are a bit ignorant and somewhat lazy. This goes for people of any country. It's the same thing as making sweeping generalizations about entire nations of people based on what others have told them instead of actual experiences with the people in question. I cannot TELL you how many times I have heard or read the sentence: Americans are fat and stupid and know nothing about other countries. Or something similar. Yeah, that does irk me. It's ignorant. I wonder how many Americans those people have actually interacted with. And they should look around at the people in their own backyard. Have they no fatties or dummies themselves?? I mean, to label and entire nation in such a way? And now it's the whole materialistic thing too? ALL humans have these flaws! That's the problem. We always want to separate ourselves when really we're all basically the same.

And while we're on the subject of historical ignorance, what up with that Churchill poll? Should I now believe all Brits are ignorant of their own history or should I take it with a grain of salt and realize that THE MEDIA SPINS! They're always going to run with the most sensationalized story and most of the time it's the least accurate. I hate those 24 hour bogus news channels and newspapers that dabble in entertainment news. They've really poisoned a lot of people. Again, this is just my opinion. I'll shut up now.  :B

Report: 1 in 4 Britons Think Winston Churchill Never Existed
Daily Mail | 2-4-08 | Rebecca Camber

One in four Britons don't believe wartime Prime Minister Winston Churchill existed, according to a recent survey. Churchill is compared to Florence Nightingale and Sir Walter Raleigh, seen by many survey respondents as a mythical person, the London Daily Mail reported Monday. The survey, conducted with 3,000 respondents to test their general knowledge, reported other historical figures such as Indian leader Mahatma Gandhi, Cleopatra and the Duke of Wellington were made up for books and films, the Mail reported. The survey, by UKTV Gold, also found that Sherlock Holmes was a real person.

Sandra, the problem is that you take things too close to heart or too personally, and read between the lines something that is not there at all and get offended. (otherwise you wouldn`t have written - tell me to shut up...) Like when you were reading my posts. There`s nothing, just people`s interest and curiosity. Look, your reaction to posts is defensive and you flatly reject any minor kind of criticism even if it`s quite fair. All nations have drawbacks, and certainly there is something in their way of life that could be criticised. And my impression is that you think it`s your duty to fight back all the "attacks", but believe me nobody is attacking you or saying that there`s something wrong about the American people. Posters only give their vision of things. So don`t be sarcastic. But I can understand you, we are all so touchy.
The stereotype about Americans being fat is nearly justified, because nowhere in the world are there as many really fat people as in the USA. If you disagree with it, then tell me what other countries you have been to. My point is based on facts and reality, cause i`ve been to very many countries, Europe, Latin America and the USA itself (I can spesify it in more detail if you like). And I`ve seen with my own eyes many fat people walking the streets in America. Stupid? Well, there certainly aren`t more stupid people in the USA than in any other country. But ignorance maybe a reasonable point. The reason for that is geographical, being separated by the ocean from the rest of the world, especially Europe and Asia. American people are just not interested in what is going on across the Atlantic, it seems to them to be so far away, beyond reach. Besides the USA practised the policy of isolationism for a long time up to World War 2 (not now, when they are everywhere), so Americans are used to neglecting the old world in general. This doesn`t refer to educated cultured people, but unfortunately there are many not very educated ones. And stereotypes usually refer to ordinary, or rather, common people.
I think the situation with Britain is different. Since you talk about Britain. Britons and common Britons do know. I happened to speak to ordinary people in the shops for example or even in the streets when asking the way. They asked some nice questions, got interested, shared some ideas. A lot, by the way, complained about what was happening to the country.
Now about materialism. In other countries people are also materialistic. But in the USA it is considered to be a value, a virtue. Don`t get annoyed. Read the quote: "The achievement of material success is probably the most widely respected form of self-improvement in the USA. Many scholars believe that the nation`s Protestant heritage is largely responsible for bringing this about. The idea of mixing materialism and religion may seem contradictory; religion is considered to be concerned with spiritual matters, not material possessions...The belief in hard work in pursuit of material gain is often referred to as "the Protestant work ethic", or "the Puritan work ethic". American authors - L.Allan, L.Mouat. Do you agree with it? Is it connected with religion? Or maybe this striving has declined with the decline of religious beliefs? Very interesting.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on November 08, 2008, 11:01:33 PM
Quote from: 1393

Sandra, the problem is that you take things too close to heart or too personally, and read between the lines something that is not there at all and get offended. (otherwise you wouldn`t have written - tell me to shut up...) Like when you were reading my posts. There`s nothing, just people`s interest and curiosity. Look, your reaction to posts is defensive and you flatly reject any minor kind of criticism even if it`s quite fair. All nations have drawbacks, and certainly there is something in their way of life that could be criticised. And my impression is that you think it`s your duty to fight back all the "attacks", but believe me nobody is attacking you or saying that there`s something wrong about the American people. Posters only give their vision of things. So don`t be sarcastic. But I can understand you, we are all so touchy.
The stereotype about Americans being fat is nearly justified, because nowhere in the world are there as many really fat people as in the USA. If you disagree with it, then tell me what other countries you have been to. My point is based on facts and reality, cause i`ve been to very many countries, Europe, Latin America and the USA itself (I can spesify it in more detail if you like). And I`ve seen with my own eyes many fat people walking the streets in America. Stupid? Well, there certainly aren`t more stupid people in the USA than in any other country. But ignorance maybe a reasonable point. The reason for that is geographical, being separated by the ocean from the rest of the world, especially Europe and Asia. American people are just not interested in what is going on across the Atlantic, it seems to them to be so far away, beyond reach. Besides the USA practised the policy of isolationism for a long time up to World War 2 (not now, when they are everywhere), so Americans are used to neglecting the old world in general. This doesn`t refer to educated cultured people, but unfortunately there are many not very educated ones. And stereotypes usually refer to ordinary, or rather, common people.
I think the situation with Britain is different. Since you talk about Britain. Britons and common Britons do know. I happened to speak to ordinary people in the shops for example or even in the streets when asking the way. They asked some nice questions, got interested, shared some ideas. A lot, by the way, complained about what was happening to the country.
Now about materialism. In other countries people are also materialistic. But in the USA it is considered to be a value, a virtue. Don`t get annoyed. Read the quote: "The achievement of material success is probably the most widely respected form of self-improvement in the USA. Many scholars believe that the nation`s Protestant heritage is largely responsible for bringing this about. The idea of mixing materialism and religion may seem contradictory; religion is considered to be concerned with spiritual matters, not material possessions...The belief in hard work in pursuit of material gain is often referred to as "the Protestant work ethic", or "the Puritan work ethic". American authors - L.Allan, L.Mouat. Do you agree with it? Is it connected with religion? Or maybe this striving has declined with the decline of religious beliefs? Very interesting.

You assume a lot. I've said a million times I'm not annoyed and I certainly don't take anything said here personally. I find it quite funny that people assume a person is upset just because they want to delve into a discussion and feel like presenting the other side. Wrong or right. Have you never participated in a heated debate? I enjoy it. Maybe you don't. But don't make assumptions that I am taking things personal or that I am upset. As you say, we both may be seeing things that aren't there. Once again, I'm not annoyed or defensive. Just posting my point of view. This is a public forum no?  I'm only playing devil's advocate. Too many people just go along with these stereotypes and never question them.  I'm questioning them. I also don't believe your statement that I "flatly reject any minor kind of criticism even if it`s quite fair." We've only been talking about very specific things which I am questioning not disagreeing with. I disagree with the BROAD generalizations. That's all. And you made a few. You also asked some questions which I chose to answer from my experiences as an American living in America. So because they didn't gel with what you were saying, I was not accepting criticism? I was only presenting my perspective on things. Sorry, I just didn't see it your way about the whole class and elitism thing.

I've criticized things about my country and its people from time to time, but it's done so much that, yeah, sometimes I go the opposite way. Just cuz I feel like keeping it fair and balanced. Maybe that's a school teacher thing. When I see just as many threads criticizing various other countries, I'll chill out. Equal opportunity bashing right?

Oh, and when I said tell me to shut up, I was joking.  ::) Hence the emoticons and reference to Paul and George's argument. ("whatever it is that pleases you..) Sorry you missed that and assumed I was angry or something. Even with the winking face which indicates: I'M JOKING. Ha ha.  ;) ;) ;)

And just because someone has traveled somewhere a couple of times doesn't make them an expert on the people in that country. It would depend where you went, who you happened to see and what your mind set was going in. I can talk to ten different Europeans and get ten different experiences on how they felt about America or anywhere else. It's subjective. We tend to see what we expect and ignore the rest. If I'm visiting England for instance, I'm not gonna be on the look out for fat people. I'm gonna be enjoying the culture. But I'm sure if I went there looking for all those fat Englishmen, I'd probably find a bunch. But whatever. That's a very typical response.

I'm done now though because at this point I'm just repeating myself. You may believe whatever you want and that's okay. I can see you've made up your mind and missed my point about most of us really being very similar at heart and that believing in and perpetuating stereotypes is basically the reason why people will never truly understand each other. There's already a wall going in. I'm really coming from a positive place here.


Here's how happy I am:

 :) :) :) ;D ;D :) :) ;D ;D :) :) :)

Okay?

And I'm sorry if you take that as sarcastic. Yeah, sometimes I am, but I can't help it. Us New York types are bread that way. (Another stereotype for ya.) Besides, I find nothing wrong with a little sarcasm, so I apologize, but I won't take  your advice there.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: pc31 on November 09, 2008, 04:05:23 AM
Quote from: 568


Isn't ours (USA) based on an old British drinking tune?

sh*t there was confusion this morning...our national anthem is not like theirs.....at all...the song america is,you know my country tis of thee is just like their national anthem...the national anthem we sing is singular...written by mr francis scott key while imprisoned....
is this it????? http://www.hymnsite.com/lyrics/umh697.sht
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: pc31 on November 09, 2008, 04:08:43 AM
catfight!!!pssst.......oh my but jane you do make this topic more interesting...keep it up please....lolindignant uppity new yawkers are use to being told to shove it....so just tell her already....
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on November 09, 2008, 04:42:03 AM
Quote from: 284
catfight!!!pssst.......oh my but jane you do make this topic more interesting...keep it up please....lolindignant uppity new yawkers are use to being told to shove it....so just tell her already....

Aww, still holding that grudge pc? And here I thought we'd made up. Oh well.  :-/

Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: alexis on November 09, 2008, 05:49:20 AM
Peace, everybody is cool, no need to tear ourselves down.

Not very NY sounding, is it? I can still be p*ssanty when I want, and even lots of times when I don't! :)
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on November 09, 2008, 06:52:40 AM
I edited my post. See, I'm reasonable.  :X
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: pc31 on November 09, 2008, 02:53:54 PM
Quote from: 216

Aww, still holding that grudge pc? And here I thought we'd made up. Oh well.  :-/

i still love you..... ;)
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: alexis on November 09, 2008, 03:14:42 PM
Sun is out,
Sky is blue,
You're loving me,
I'm loving you.

Nothing else, I
Wanna do.

 :) :)
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: pc31 on November 09, 2008, 04:40:04 PM
(http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr141/mickebo/OUAAAA1.gif)
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on November 09, 2008, 08:39:06 PM
Quote from: 284
i still love you..... ;)


(http://www.freewebby.com/sign-smilies/respect.gif)
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Jane on November 09, 2008, 10:00:29 PM
Sandra, what`s wrong with you? Calm down. I didn`t mean a fight! My post, and not only mine (look at the other posts directed to you), is unemotional while yours is all emotions. I tried to tell you why other people might think that those stereotypes (fat) you yourself gave us are true. That`s all. I don`t assume anything, I am just afraid that you got offended, because your tone changed. Please, don`t, I respect you and your opinion, and I only ask you whether the printed ideas in newspapers correspond to the facts. I see that you don`t think they do. OK!  :)
What broad generalisations did I make? I can`t see any. State them, please, quote me, if you can. Cause there are no.
As I said all my sentences about class and elitism were made with the help of MAYBE words and QUESTIONS, I was interested in your opinions and wrote to you what I`ve read in newspapers on the subject. While you somehow saw something in those sentences. There is nothing in them, no undercurrent. Please, believe me.
And what about that "joking thing"? Why this mockery? Certainly i saw the winking face, but as they say there`s always a share of truth in every joke and there`s always a share of joke in every truth.
"And just because someone has travelled somewhere a couple of times"...This is rather disparaging. I really don`t like it. You say you want a discussion, but it was after your post that others called the interaction a catfight, cause you made it look like that. I really have experience in travelling, and it wasn`t a couple of times for a week or a month. I will tell you, though i have already done that in other threads. I lived in London for 5 years, in Oslo (Norway) for 3 years, in Argentina for 5 years, in Peru for 4 years, in Sweden for 9(3+3+3) summer months, went to the USA for 2 months, have been to Spain, Croatia, Egypt and again in lovely Britain many times. Besides my brother is an Austrian citizen and my parents live in Cyprus. So I travel there all the time. Isn`t it enough? I know life in many countries from inside and can compare things. So I do have experience and can judge fairly. When i was in the USA I happened to speak to ordinary people, in the streets, shops and libraries, to professors in a university, and to some of the American "elite" at the embassy receptions (three times), where I was invited.
Nevertheless, I mean well, I just want the truth and i don`t want to argue, let alone fight. If I have said something you didn`t like, I am sorry. I apologise.  :)
Yes, all people are the same, they trully are! They feel the same, they act in the same way, they even think the same. Only some attitudes in their lives are a bit different. Let`s find out this difference without any fights.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on November 09, 2008, 10:43:35 PM
Oh good lord. There's nothing "wrong with me" Jane. I've said a million times I wasn't upset or arguing. You like to make it seem that way in your posts for some reason, but that's okay. I can't tease or joke with you. I understand now. I can't clarify anymore about how I'm just discussing and not taking things personal. You've used the words fight and argue, not me. You insist on projecting your own feelings onto me. What can I say. I think you misunderstand me bigtime and will continue to do so, so I will bow out of this "discussion" before I really say something I'll regret.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: python on November 09, 2008, 10:55:48 PM
Time to cool down a bit,I think.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: pc31 on November 10, 2008, 12:28:59 AM
n6BZiFBws3I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6BZiFBws3I)
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on November 10, 2008, 12:49:44 AM
Quote from: 1610
Time to cool down a bit,I think.

Yes, because we wouldn't want this place to get interesting or anything.


 :X
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: python on November 10, 2008, 10:06:35 AM
this IS interesting sandra.its great.but dont you think this topic has dragged on and it seems to be causing a little bad feeling.
anyway,youre a moderator so ,do as you please.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: DaveRam on November 10, 2008, 10:20:56 AM
One of my gay friends thinks the problem with Americans is they have know fashion sense ? , can't see it myself they seem to dress just as bad/good as us Brits .
He's of the opinion the baseball cap and il' fitting jeans are the biggest threat to mankind (teeth1)
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Geoff on November 10, 2008, 12:43:32 PM
Quote from: 971
One of my gay friends thinks the problem with Americans is they have no fashion sense ? He's of the opinion the baseball cap and il' fitting jeans are the biggest threat to mankind (teeth1)

I used to date a Romanian woman who was of exactly the same opinion about Canadians. She found the whole baggy jeans/hoodie/baseball cap/cheesy goatee thing appalling, and thought it hilarious when I told her that about half of the guys wearing that downtown were suburban clowns from Scarborough trying to look anonymous (all wearing the same bloody clothes, of course) so they could go buy or peddle dope at the corner of Yonge and College.  ;D
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Jane on November 10, 2008, 09:43:41 PM
Quote from: 216
Oh good lord. There's nothing "wrong with me" Jane. I've said a million times I wasn't upset or arguing. You like to make it seem that way in your posts for some reason, but that's okay. I can't tease or joke with you. I understand now. I can't clarify anymore about how I'm just discussing and not taking things personal. You've used the words fight and argue, not me. What can I say. I think you misunderstand me bigtime and will continue to do so, so I will bow out of this "discussion" before I really say something I'll regret.

"You insist on projecting your own feelings onto me." - Wrong! I was worried that you were upset, and only that! Now I am glad that all is ok. You are very clever and I respect you. However, I didn`t get an answer to the statement by some American analysts that material success is an American value/virtue linked with the Protestant work ethic or the Puritan work ethic. Is it perceived like that or is it nonsense or maybe an outdated connection? Do you get what I mean? Could you, please, tell me. I can address only those people who live in the USA.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on November 11, 2008, 02:04:21 AM
Quote from: 1393

"You insist on projecting your own feelings onto me." - Wrong! I was worried that you were upset, and only that! Now I am glad that all is ok. You are very clever and I respect you. However, I didn`t get an answer to the statement by some American analysts that material success is an American value/virtue linked with the Protestant work ethic or the Puritan work ethic. Is it perceived like that or is it nonsense or maybe an outdated connection? Do you get what I mean? Could you, please, tell me. I can address only those people who live in the USA.

I'm glad we straightened things out Jane. I enjoy debating with you.

I think material success and materialism are very different things. Materialism has become a loaded word. Yes, immigrants came here to have more than what their ancestors had. I guess that often equates to material goods. But often times it just means you don't have to struggle like your parents did and you're able to afford to live comfortably. Yes, part of having a strong work ethic is to achieve success and being able to provide for your family with material goods is a big part of that. That doesn't mean these people are materialistic.

It also depends on what type of community you live in too. Out here in the Valley and in West Los Angeles in particular, people tend to be very materialistic. Too many people worry about labels and junk like that. Where I grew up on Long Island was completely different. People had a working class ethic and couldn't have cared less about that stuff. I mean, if I went back there and said I was wearing a pair of $300 dollar jeans, they'd call me a moron. Out here, they would just think it's the norm. Not that I wear $300 dollar jeans, but I do know people who do and they can hardly afford it. Of course not all of Southern California is like that though and most people outside of those areas don't respect the whole trendy, spend too much life style and can't stand it as much as the rest of the world. Unfortunately, the people in those areas, show business people, are the ones that represent us as a nation! Sucks really.

Anyway, I believe the quote I posted about the American Dream said just what you are saying. That there is a strong work ethic, that people work hard to achieve success. Part of that being material success, part being education and career. But again, it's different from being materialistic which has very negative connotations. Hopefully, I'm making sense. I spent about 9 hours at work today writing report cards, so I'm a bit punchy.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Jane on November 12, 2008, 08:21:35 PM
Sandra, I am sorry I didn`t respond yesterday. I managed to get through half of the forum yesterday when something urgent turned up. Thank you for your answer and your vision of all this material stuff.
To support your view: "It is interesting to note that in the last few decades, there has been a shift in the work ethic and in the meaning of work. Some researchers report that in the past, most Americans did not expect their work to be interesting or enjoyable. In the 50s most people saw their jobs primarily as a source of income. Now, by a margin of 4 to 1, they expect their work to give them a sense of personal satisfaction and fulfillment, in addition to their income."
And I also believe that Americans work harder than Europeans. For example, an Austrian could earn more by working harder or longer hours. But why should he, if he`s quite comfortable in life? He prefers to relax and have some beer.
However with this crisis...
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on November 13, 2008, 01:23:51 AM
Quote from: 1393
Sandra, I am sorry I didn`t respond yesterday. I managed to get through half of the forum yesterday when something urgent turned up. Thank you for your answer and your vision of all this material stuff.
To support your view: "It is interesting to note that in the last few decades, there has been a shift in the work ethic and in the meaning of work. Some researchers report that in the past, most Americans did not expect their work to be interesting or enjoyable. In the 50s most people saw their jobs primarily as a source of income. Now, by a margin of 4 to 1, they expect their work to give them a sense of personal satisfaction and fulfillment, in addition to their income."
And I also believe that Americans work harder than Europeans. For example, an Austrian could earn more by working harder or longer hours. But why should he, if he`s quite comfortable in life? He prefers to relax and have some beer.
However with this crisis...

Yeah, I'd rather live a more relaxed life style, but it's just not allowed it seems!! Everyone is expected to work so hard and such long hours even when you don't make that much. Too much importance is placed on work and career. We're like robots. I think there must be some brain washing going on somewhere!!  ??)
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Penny Lane on November 13, 2008, 02:03:30 AM
^  I wish Americans were allowed more time for vacations.  I think the average time allowed is two weeks per year...but I think many Americans skip vacations in favor of work.  For more menial jobs, I don't think you get paid vacation time at all.  Isn't it true that Europeans get more vacation time than we do?
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on November 13, 2008, 02:09:04 AM
[size=18]Average Number of Vacation Days Around the World Per Year[/size]

Italy        
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: pc31 on November 13, 2008, 03:38:46 AM
vacation????what's that??
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Geoff on November 13, 2008, 05:05:16 AM
Quote from: 216
[size=18]Average Number of Vacation Days Around the World Per Year[/size]

Italy        
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: BlueMeanie on November 13, 2008, 08:40:13 AM
In Denmark I think it must average 25, plus national holidays. Mrs. BM now gets 40 plus national holidays!
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Penny Lane on November 13, 2008, 09:11:28 AM
Quote from: 1161

Another incentive to move to Italy or France. Not that there aren't enough good ones already.  :)


Hah.  No kidding.

I had relatives (both biological and in-laws) visiting from France and Switzerland this summer.  It almost seems like they all had enough time to do a leisurely mini-tour of America.  On the other hand, my poor workaholic parents have never set foot in Europe.  I keep asking them to take a vacation (even a brief one to go out-of-state) and they always say no...they need the money and they already work so hard.   :-/ :-/ :(
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Jane on November 14, 2008, 08:32:06 PM
Two weeks of vacation in the USA? Can`t believe it! What about all those praised trade unions? They know that American vacations are the shortest, why don`t they fight for the right???
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Sondra on November 15, 2008, 12:55:31 AM
Quote from: 1393
Two weeks of vacation in the USA? Can`t believe it! What about all those praised trade unions? They know that American vacations are the shortest, why don`t they fight for the right???

Because they think two weeks of vacation is normal. It's what we're brainwashed into believing. The whole work ethic thing. And that you're lazy or irresponsible if you take too much time off. It's ridiculous.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: Penny Lane on November 15, 2008, 01:59:07 AM
Quote from: 1393
Two weeks of vacation in the USA? Can`t believe it! What about all those praised trade unions? They know that American vacations are the shortest, why don`t they fight for the right???

I've heard on a radio report once that some Americans are fearful of taking too much time off for vacations for fear of getting fired/replaced.  Somehow it seems more favorable to feign illness to miss work rather than actually saying you're going on a vacation.  Even if you want to miss a single day, you just lie and say you're sick.  I think Sandra is right, it really is the whole work ethic thing.
Title: Re: Anti-Americans
Post by: pc31 on November 16, 2008, 08:27:01 PM
KufHGYKqH9E (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KufHGYKqH9E)