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[Kevin]

You see what I'm doing here, right?

Doh! Do I feel stupid. Hands across the water.....

[DaveRam]

The notion of guardian angels seemes to be held by a lot of people ?
I quite like the idea of angels been by our side , once when i was on the hospital ward at work i was sat with an old man who was dying , all of a sudden he started to beckon with his hands and cry angels angels angels , i looked but could'nt see anything , but the peaceful expression on his face made me wonder if he was seeing angels .

[Sondra]

And finally..

"I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being."

"Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is the same as that of the religious fanatics, and it springs from the same source . . . They are creatures who can't hear the music of the spheres."

Oh wait, one more.
“Believing would be easier if God would show himself by depositing a million dollars in a Swiss bank account in my name”

[Kevin]

The notion of guardian angels seemes to be held by a lot of people ?
I quite like the idea of angels been by our side , once when i was on the hospital ward at work i was sat with an old man who was dying , all of a sudden he started to beckon with his hands and cry angels angels angels , i looked but could'nt see anything , but the peaceful expression on his face made me wonder if he was seeing angels .

Yes, they're a nice idea and very comforting. i would like to believe in them. it must be nice. But..
Probably that old man was seeing angels. Who knows what thoughts your brain would generate in that moment of supreme crises. Just like some people see UFO's and ghosts or the virgin mary or Elvis Presley. Don't mean they're there though.

[Sondra]

BTW, dragons, leprechauns, vampires and so can indeed be disproved and really, nobody is claiming they're real. We can trace back to when they were fictionalized or how the myths were created. I'm not saying I believe in God btw, I've already said I don't. But I agree with Einstein that you have to have a certain amount of humility when discussing things that are out of our relm of understanding. To say it's silly or stupid to have some sort of faith in a higher power is a bit arrogant.

And right away, your thing about the old man. Why be compelled to rationalize it away? Again, who are we to say? And the UFO/Elvis comparison isn't the best comparison. In my opinion.

[Kevin]

BTW, dragons, leprechauns, vampires and so can indeed be disproved and really, nobody is claiming they're real. We can trace back to when they were fictionalized or how the myths were created. I'm not saying I believe in God btw, I've already said I don't. But I agree with Einstein that you have to have a certain amount of humility when discussing things that are out of our relm of understanding. To say it's silly or stupid to have some sort of faith in a higher power is a bit arrogant.

But I can trace the god myth back to it's source. And plenty of people do or did  believe in those other things. Why don't we anymore? Because we accept there is absolutely no evidence for their existance. My same arguement about god.
And if I'm guilty of arragonce (  ) in making a judgement about something I can't comprehend, then aren't the religious guilty of the same crime. They, armed with the same knowledge, say definately There Is A God. Shouldn't they all just say "I don't know." ?
The aethiest campaign here get's it bang on. There tag is "there probably isn't a god." Nothings impossible. Just some things are highly unlikely.

[Kevin]

But I can trace the god myth back to it's source. And plenty of people do or did  believe in those other things. Why don't we anymore? Because we accept there is absolutely no evidence for their existance. My same arguement about god.

And if I'm guilty of arragonce (   ) in making a judgement about something I can't comprehend, then aren't the religious guilty of the same crime. They, armed with the same knowledge, say definately There Is A God. Shouldn't they all just say "I don't know." ?
The aethiest campaign here get's it bang on. There tag is "there probably isn't a god." Nothings impossible. Just some things are highly unlikely.

[Kevin]

Can you disprove the existance of vampires?

[Sondra]

Leprechauns and vampires are based on folklore and mythology. The Bible/Torah is not. Please tell me you can see the difference. Also, please show me how you traced the God myth to its source. I've heard/read so many different things. There have been documentaries linking stories to actual places and people. People are still working on this because there ARE some reasons for doubt. These are intelligent people. Not blind sheep.

Also, I don't mean to call you arrogant. I'm saying die hard atheists who feel the need to put down others for their beliefs or who feel the need to make everybody say Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas are arrogant and just as bad as the die hard Christians.

[Sondra]

Can you disprove the existance of vampires?

I'm sure I could if it wasn't 3:18 in the morning. I know I've read and seen programs that go into the whole origin of the myth and how it got twisted.  Vlad Tepes, Braham Stoker's Dracula being two big contributors.

[Kevin]

Leprechauns and vampires are based on folklore and mythology. The Bible/Torah is not. Please tell me you can see the difference. Also, please show me how you traced the God myth to its source.

Certainly elements of the bible are based on real events. That's not my arguement. I'm talking about accepting the existance of a supernatural being, not whether King Nebbafdoodah ruled Eygpt.
You can't disprove vampires existance. Therefore by your logic that's enough. If it can't be disproved we accept their existance....
Western tradition rightly places them firmly under the "folklore" heading. Plenty of africans would disagree with you. For them witches, vampires and evil spirits are very real. African children are killed in this country because they are possessed. And you can't disprove that they are, yet we all know it to be a flasehood. We demand evidence, some kind of rational thought, not superstition. How is god different?
I think god is based on folklore and mytholgy. So do plenty of other people.

[Sondra]

I don't know enough about African beliefs to be able to speak to it. And I believe that the vampires that we are discussing, the ones with fangs who suck blood can and have been explained. The ones in the African religion probably have nothing to do with that vampire thing. Yes, the Bible contains folklore. The creation of woman, Noah's Ark, etc. But this is not the entire book. This is what people are still trying to find out about.

Also, in our history are stories of evil spirits and witches too. These things were people's way of explaining mental illness, disease, and bad crops. When we acquired the medical and scientific knowledge to disprove it, people stopped believing/practicing these beliefs. Now do these African people you speak of live in a community that has access to this? Is it done now mostly by tradition? Do you think that if they were exposed to the medical and scientific PROOF they might think otherwise?

[Kevin]

I Also, in our history are stories of evil spirits and witches too. These things were people's way of explaining mental illness, disease, and bad crops. When we acquired the medical and scientific knowledge to disprove it, people stopped believing/practicing these beliefs.

Just as more and more people now disbelieve in the existance of god. We don't need him to explain away the mysteries of our world. Education is killing him. Christianity is dying in western europe. We may be worse off because of this. I think so. Community belief is a good thing.
And just to press my point - I'm not doubting everything in the bible - just the existance of supernatural beings, of which god is one.

[Sondra]

Yeah, it's different over there than here. And people have been saying religion or God is dying for a long time. Could be. But doubt it very much. Maybe organized religion. Education has nothing to do with it though. Maybe a bit, but a lot of it is this lack of humility and arrogance that people seem to have a lot more of these days.

And as you know, the world is HUGE and there are still many, many, many countries that are deeply religious.

And God doesn't explain the mysteries of the world. Again, the "folklore" was not meant to be taken seriously. It's all about lessons, a moral code, stories to prove a point and so on. It's the way people take it that makes the atheists crazy. They can't imagine anyone telling them how to live their lives I guess. But it's really not supposed to be that way. There are just a lot of people who NEED to be told how to live. If religion wasn't around, they'd find something else or someone else to control their lives. All and all, I think spirituality is important to human beings. However they get it. I think more people believe in something than you realize. Even in progressive Europe. The belief in the existence of "God" is becoming something different. Something not so cut and dry. Most people realize he's not a being, but a higher power. Something unexplainable, but not some creature that wears white robes and points his finger to get his way. This is more due to spiritual enlightenment than education. A lot of so called educated people speak a lot of crap too.

[Sondra]

BTW, I believe that when we die, that's it. We don't exist anymore. We just rot in the ground or get turned into ashes and that's it. I believe this cuz that's pretty much typical of how most things are in life. It sucks, but that's the way it is. I think people created the concept of an afterlife because it's too difficult for most people to deal with the reality that one day they just won't exist anymore. That this is pretty much all there is. Too bad! I love going on about this to my mom cuz it drives her crazy. That's called payback.

But this is MY belief and I don't impose it on anybody. Except my mother. And again, I don't have enough knowledge to say to someone, you believe in an afterlife? You're so silly!

[Kevin]

But this is MY belief and I don't impose it on anybody. Except my mother. And again, I don't have enough knowledge to say to someone, you believe in an afterlife? You're so silly!

Jeez - we're on the same side and still we argue. We'd make a great married couple.
I like to think I'm pointing out the error of people's way, rather than imposing my will.
And I think you do have enough knowledge to at least say an afterlife is highly unlikely.
I think we're done now. I'm off to start a John Lennon Was A Mysoginest Prat thread. See you there?

[Sondra]

I like to think I'm pointing out the error of people's way

Yeah, and THAT'S the part that drive's me crazy.

[Jane]

There have been documentaries linking stories to actual places and people. People are still working on this because there ARE some reasons for doubt. These are intelligent people. Not blind sheep.

Indeed these are very intelligent people, much more knowledgable than we are. They are scientists, who nevertheless believe in God.

[Jane]

Certainly elements of the bible are based on real events. That's not my arguement. I'm talking about accepting the existance of a supernatural being, not whether King Nebbafdoodah ruled Eygpt.
 We demand evidence, some kind of rational thought, not superstition. How is god different?
I think god is based on folklore and mytholgy. So do plenty of other people.

Kevin, you can`t demand evidence of something that a human can`t understand. Our argument also proves it. God is beyond human mind, the proofs of his existence are also beyond our understanding. It is all much more complicated than "this is a supernatural being and this is a vampire". We can`t even say whether God is a supernatural being or idea or word. But what was first? Think about it. And many people did, and they all finally came to the conclusion that it was WORD not material substance. What was before everything? Idea or Materia? How can material substance be first, what did it come from? From Idea.
And God is not superstition, he is against superstition. God is belief, faith.
Another thing. The Bible came to ancients when they were rather primitive people. Who could have written such wise, unsurpassable ideas, so much different from everything believed and practised at that time? Not any contemporary.
And another thing. The proof of God`s existence is everywhere. Just look around, at this grass, this sky, this flowers, birds and animals. And certainly people. It is all so rational, so well-thought-out and worked-out.
Answer the question: What is a law of nature?

[Jane]

Just as more and more people now disbelieve in the existance of god. We don't need him to explain away the mysteries of our world. Education is killing him. Christianity is dying in western europe. We may be worse off because of this. I think so. Community belief is a good thing.
And just to press my point - I'm not doubting everything in the bible - just the existance of supernatural beings, of which god is one.

1. That more and more people disbelieve in God is the wrong idea. More and more people in Western Europe disbelieve in God is the correct idea. And more and more people in some other parts of the world come to God (maybe on a new level), so the proportion remains. And another correct thing is that Anglican Church is in decline. Unfortunately. But what must be must be. If it disappears then it is the way the situation is to develop. To tell you the truth I am really sad that The Church is in decline, cause it is Christian religion, which is the most humane of all, it is our religion. I am sad that the monarchy is threatened, cause this is the true British tradition, I am sad that the House of Lords is being reformed, cause there true English aristocrats sit, these are no chance people like other politicians who come and go and whose aim is to grab as much as they can.
2. Kevin, the more we learn, the more we understand that we know nothing. We do not need God to explain the mysteries of the world, we need science to do it, which it does. God is for something else. Education doesn`t kill him, education only opens the veil a bit. What we knew centuries ago about our world hasn`t changed at all. What concerns the world as it is we are at the same level of knowledge, we only have learned about some laws and have developed the technology, but we haven`t answered a single question about the creation of the universe or people.
3. Christianity is dying in Western Europe, you say. Yes, and morals are very low. Look at the morals! Some people say that drugs are ok, some say there`s no need to get married, some say children can be born out of wedlock, some say a male can marry a male. All this is considered to be a norm, or even worse, normal behaviour. It is all advertised and advocated in the mass media, shown on TV and at cinemas. Let it all be, since we live in a liberal society, but advocate it and accept it as normal behaviour...What is that? Total degradation.
I am very sorry for all these ideas, but just couldn`t help it.