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Beatles forums => The Beatles => Topic started by: REDD51 on April 02, 2009, 02:40:53 AM

Title: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: REDD51 on April 02, 2009, 02:40:53 AM
Hi, new guy here.
I've done some searching to no avail (although I've not learned to squeeze everything out of the search engine yet) looking for any information on the chap or chaps that mixed the Beatles live shows.

It's actually the topic that brought me to the forum, although I see months of addiction here on one of my favorite topics :)

Was it Mal, Neil?.......or was it one of them just setting up the mixing console on the side of the stage and not doing any real mixing at all?

I've got "Recording the Beatles" and a few other Beatles tech books on the way to see if the information is contained within, but thought I'd drop a note here in the meantime.
I'm also hoping for details on the equipment used for their live shows.

To date, I've found very little information on the actual details of their live shows (other than where they were and what tunes they played).

I'm starting to wonder if the hired the gear locally in each town (in America, Britain, and Europe) and used whoever came with the gear to mix the show?
Cheers
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: REDD51 on April 04, 2009, 05:47:22 AM
Being new here, is there a better place to post this question?

Or is it information that's possibly not in the general database?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Penny Lane on April 04, 2009, 05:59:10 AM
Hey, welcome to the board.  :)  

Sorry I can't help you out with this info, but maybe someone else knows.  I hope various books will be helpful to you too.
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Bobber on April 04, 2009, 10:27:53 AM
I don't think they ever had a live sound engineer.
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: fendertele on April 04, 2009, 10:38:38 AM
Quote from: 63
I don't think they ever had a live sound engineer.

when they played the cavern and the likes of the small clubs they never miked up the drums and just played str8 from there amps ? leaving just vocals which where just easy to get levels without eqing or anything.

Bigger stadiums just str8 through the PA system quick check of levels but no Eqing or anything either ?

Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Bobber on April 04, 2009, 02:36:42 PM
Quote from: 758

when they played the cavern and the likes of the small clubs they never miked up the drums and just played str8 from there amps ? leaving just vocals which where just easy to get levels without eqing or anything.

Bigger stadiums just str8 through the PA system quick check of levels but no Eqing or anything either ?


They just used the sound system in the bigger stadiums that were used to announce the players. They didn't have monitor system to hear themselves sing. Ringo's drums were sometimes amplified with a single microphone hanging on top.
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: REDD51 on April 04, 2009, 03:24:33 PM
That's what I've always believed as well.
But upon close investigation of photos from Shea Stadium and Crossley Field, it appears as if there is substantial additional PA located on the playing field.
It's enough PA that it would require (especially considering the year) somebody who really knew what they were doing in order for it's deployment.

All of this got me wondering if the hundreds of gigs they played that weren't in big stadiums would have been gigs in which there was even a basic public address system "in house", or if they would have contracted equipment into the venue.

I suspect it would be Mal who would make these arrangements, but haven't been able to locate any written material on the subject to date.

I'm now combing through old concert photos in order to attempt to identify what the Beatles basic microphone and PA set up might have been. I'm familiar with the type of audio equipment that would have been considered appropriate for live shows in the early sixties, but have yet to locate any reference or photo of anybody actually "mixing" a Beatles show.

This does tend to support the theory that the endless poor quality of their live sound was a huge contributing factor to their eventual, and total dislike for live performances. They appear not to have had anybody specific they could go to for support in dealing with any live sound issues.

(BTW, what a great forum......I've got months of reading ahead!)
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: An Apple Beatle on April 04, 2009, 03:57:15 PM
Welcome Redd. I imagine most venues would have an 'in-house' engineer. Also, Neil and Mal probably knew enough on how to wire up un-sophisticated systems. I heard that at Shea, it was also rallied through the tannoy system. This may have been something as simple as placing a microphone in front of the PA or just an extra line out of the P.A. I must admit I don't know much about old PA systems, although I have certainly seen some very old Vox 4input models but they may have not been made until the 70's.
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: alexis on April 04, 2009, 05:18:59 PM
Great thread REDD! Please keep us posted, and I'll snoop around the internet as well.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: alexis on April 04, 2009, 05:51:47 PM
From "Beatles Gear", Andy Babiuk:

"The Cavern had its own very basic PA system .. with a Vortexion amp and Reslo ribbon mics. But that was a Rolls Royce system compared to some of the PAs back then.

Epstein did some promotions of Queen's Hall in Widnes, a town just east of Liverpool, and he would hire a PA system from Alpha Sounds Service, run by Brian Kelly. It had a simple 25-watt amp, with bass and treble controls for the three mic inputs, and two 12-inch speakers. But this  25-watt PA was still adeuate to cut above the voume the groups were producing themselves with their amps, in a farily big place that held about 800 people. Quite astonishing these days". That was a quote from local promoter/DJ Chris Whorton.

Some further info from the same source, not really on their PA system and mixing boards (did they ever use mixing boards live?), but on their personal equipment:

"The equipment used during the Washington performance was the same as that used for their earlier Paris shows. There were two Vox AC-50 "small box"  amps with matching AC-50 speaker cabs on AC-30 amp stands (my comment here - one each for George and John), a Vox AC-100 bass head with 2x15 AC-100 bass speaker cab (my comment here - for Paul), the 2nd 20-inch bass Ludwig drum set with number-two Beatles logo, the Gretsch Country Gentleman, the '63 Hofner 500/1 bass, and Lennon's original '58 Rickenbacker 325. Harrison also had his Gretsch Tennesssean on hand as a spare. ... A mere 200 watts of power to fill a vast arena full of screaming fans!"

That blows my mind. We use probably close to 750 Watts of power for our gigs, which at most are in a room the size of a small gymnasium. And they played a full screaming stadium with 200W. Incredible.
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: REDD51 on April 04, 2009, 07:06:57 PM
Also amazing would be the fact that a large percentage of in-house PA systems would have likely been based on Dukane/Operadio style of equipment.
That would typically be a four channel, tube amplifier with no tone controls!!

Can you imagine?

With four channels live, that would be three vocal mics (although they often used only two) and a single drum overhead........just like a lot of the concert pix from this era.

Where I start to wonder though is with shows like Hollywood Bowl, which by many accounts was the first time the sonics of one of their live performances may have lived up to their recorded output.

At the time, the Hollywood Bowl actually had one of the most sophisticated PA's around as house equipment, and there is little doubt that the Beatles made use of it (there are numerous comments on the record that state just that)............but I personally think that somebody had to mix it, it was just too big and complex to "turn it on and forget about it".

I'm starting to suspect that the timeline that led into large scale, full range PA systems (of which of course we had the first "huge" example at Woodstock, although they were around for a few years before that) may have just missed the Beatles.
I'm left wondering if there are a number of "house" engineers who may have had a turn at the knobs of the greatest band of all time.........but for whom there would have been little or no formal acknowledgment at the time simply because the concept of a dedicated audio engineer who was actually part of the band just didn't exist yet??

I love the hunt for the information though..........that's 90% of the fun for me  :)

Thanks for that info from "Beatles Gear" Alexis, I've got "Recording the Beatles" on the way in the post and didn't think "Beatles Gear" would be required reading at the same time......but it looks like a trip to Amazon is called for now!

Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: REDD51 on April 06, 2009, 05:26:01 PM
A few more observations over the weekend.

Using the Australia tour as a template, I've looked at many pictures of the Beatles on stage during that tour. One thing that becomes apparent is that they used different microphones in all of the pictures taken at different venues.

This may tend to imply that the Beatles were hiring PA locally for each stop of the tour.

In one picture, John is singing into a Sennheiser 421 (also marketed as a Telefunken 421). The 421 was such a sophisticated microphone (first released in 1960) that it's still in use in major recording studios, and live performances to this day!)
The use of the 421 tends to imply that the PA they were using was probably somewhat advanced in design, or at least the peripheral equipment they hired to augment the venue PA was possibly state-of-the-art for its day.

A question:
There's a well known picture of the Beatles performing live, taken from directly overhead (looking straight down on the tops of their heads).
Does anybody know exactly where and/or when this picture was taken?

The reason I ask is because in this photo, there is a clear indication of at least 8, (posssibly up to 10) microphones visible on stage.
From a lifetime of mixing music live, I'd be of the opinion that 10 microphones would have to be mixed continuously throughout the performance by a human being.......and would tend to introduce far too many variables to just "set and forget" the venue PA system.
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: An Apple Beatle on April 06, 2009, 05:31:51 PM
I have seen that picture on this forum somewhere. When you mention the amount of mics, could it also be that they were set up to go direct to tape aswell as live PA? Possibly meaning no live mixing. Just throwing it into the pot. I also do a lot of local and sometimes abroad mixing work.
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: REDD51 on April 06, 2009, 06:04:21 PM
Quote from: 15
When you mention the amount of mics, could it also be that they were set up to go direct to tape aswell as live PA?
Excellent point.
If it was extra mics for recording, it could still leave a minimum amount of "live" mics onstage.

(I even tried to follow each of the mic cables to see where they went........as might be surmised I gave up when I went cross-eyed).

I've actually found nothing solid to date at all that would imply that anybody other than the venue's sound guy handled the Beatles live mix......at any of their live concerts.

I honestly suspected that I'd turn up a name or two!!
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: An Apple Beatle on April 06, 2009, 11:27:38 PM
Thinking about it some more, without looking at the picture, I suppose if you were to mic the whole band up, you'd be looking at 3 mics for cabs, (2xguitar & 1 bass as i imagine D.I. out's had not yet been invented.) 2 or 3 for vocals (Ringo numbers aswell) and remainder for drums. My guess is they would have tried to perhaps get a live stereo recording of the gig. That also makes me think, they used to overdub vocals on some live recordings. Was this done at Shea? They would have had to leave at least 1track of a 4track free to attempt that.
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: REDD51 on April 07, 2009, 03:24:57 AM
You mentioned Shea, in some of the wide shots of the concert (best one I've seen is in the Anthology book) you can clearly see at least a dozen portable PA columns set up on the field itself, set to be pointing up into the stands.
They are split up into two groups of 6, with each half dozen forming a rough semi-circle on each side of the stage......cheated slightly towards the front of the stage.

These towers look similar to Shure VocalMaster type boxes, and would have not only required a lot of extra cable, amplifier power, and additional outputs from the mixing console......but they also would have introduced the definite possibility of feedback (as they weren't part of the stadiums general, and presumably permanently EQ'd public address system). It's tempting to consider that somebody was making sure feedback wasn't an issue of concern.

It's still possible that the system was operated by the anonymous Shea Stadium technicians, but even today, deploying an identical system would be no small undertaking.

It still can look at times like there was an anonymous "somebody" mixing some of these shows..........it's amazing that no names can be located.........you'd think by 1972-75, somebody who'd mixed one of the Beatles live shows would have been bragging about it everywhere they could  :)
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Bobber on April 07, 2009, 06:34:35 AM
Quote from: 2032
It still can look at times like there was an anonymous "somebody" mixing some of these shows..........it's amazing that no names can be located.........you'd think by 1972-75, somebody who'd mixed one of the Beatles live shows would have been bragging about it everywhere they could  :)

Maybe there wasn't much to be proud of...
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Joe on April 07, 2009, 01:10:20 PM
I'm sure things changed somewhat as they got bigger, but I suspect they relied on in-house PA systems and fairly basic equipment, mixed by venue staff. During the earlier cinema/theatre shows there was probably even less sophistication, as this page suggests: http://www.beatlesbible.com/1964/01/16/residency-at-the-olympia-theatre-paris/

Quote
On the first night, we had a bit of trouble because we suddenly found out that there was a radio programme just sort of plugging into everything. They had overloaded all the amps, and they all went 'Bomf!' They like the wilder stuff over there, so we stuck in a wilder number to finish off with.


Here's that top-down pic. I'd also be interested in knowing where it was taken.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_4zy9XFu1894/SB2Z9oKPkdI/AAAAAAAAASk/m73qzHMm6AI/S660/topbeatles.jpg)

Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Ged on April 07, 2009, 01:39:13 PM
I know even their memories are fuzzy but Paul says on the Anthology film that they played through the Shea's own P.A. (When describing how bad it'd become playing live)
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: pc31 on April 07, 2009, 07:52:38 PM
i would imagine neil and mal would have been setting up as well but back then you probally had inhouse or promoters egineering....and using their page systems...i'm sure there had to be a mixing board of some sort and a lighting tech as well...they weren't cavemen after all...
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Casbah on April 08, 2009, 10:55:03 AM
I believe that overhead picture is from the Palais du Sport in Paris.. If you watch the Paris video, the piano is in the same spot and the instrumentation and amps are the same..  It would also explain all those extra mics :)
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Casbah on April 08, 2009, 11:03:53 AM
I think this clip might show how bad the sound problem was  at a Beatles concert!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EJH11DPsD4&feature=related
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Casbah on April 13, 2009, 11:10:07 PM
Found out some interesting news today...I wrote to Michael Neal of McCune sound. They were the ones that provided the sound equipment for the Candlestick Park concert:


There's been a lot of interest in the Candlestick Park concert. Here's an email i received two years ago:************************************************Hello Mike I found this text on the web... as VP of technology this might be of  interest to you as it is to me!  


"When The Beatles played their last concert, at San Francisco's Candlestick Park in 1966, the mics were Shure SM56s, the speakers were modified Altec A-7s powered by Altec 1569 80-watt tube amplifiers, and McCune Sound's Mort Feld mixed the show on one or two Altec 1567 five-input rotary pot tube mixers. By modern standards, the sound system was a bare-bones setup-no monitors, no graphic EQs, no delay lines, no dynamics processors and no effects. More noteworthy, from a modern perspective, is the fact that the sound system did not include any equipment made by a UK-based manufacturer, unless you count the Vox guitar amps onstage"

Interesting it states no monitors - yet film and photographs from the concert may suggest otherwise. Hopefully when time permits you will be able to track down Abe - it would be nice to confirm the overall spec but in particular if some form of early monitoring system was used. With Kind Regards

More from Mike:

Unfortunately (to my knowledge) there's only one person still living who was involved in the audio for the show, and that's Abe Jacob. Abe is currently working in New York (for the NYC Opera, I believe), and I did have an email address for him but a hard drive crash seems to have lost it.
There are some photos floating around on the web showing the staging, and the band during the concert, but they're hard to find.
Anyway, sorry I can't be more helpful.
Mike


Mixer:
(http://www.eifl.co.jp/index/amplifier/image/altec_1567aL.jpg)

The email states one or two mixers, I assume if he had two it would have looked similar to this...

Power Amps:
(http://www.soundbox.co.jp/images/Altec_1569A_11.jpg)

Speakers:

(http://www.wardsweb.org/audio/altec_images/A7.jpg)


Im assuming they went with the A7's with the horn inside for stacking purposes, but I haven't looked at Candlestick Park pictures recently, so it could be the other ones, with the horns mounted on top.
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Bobber on April 14, 2009, 07:05:16 AM
Nice job!
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: REDD51 on April 14, 2009, 05:44:28 PM
Brilliant!
Thanks so much for sharing that information.
It's more information in a single post than I've found in a dozen books.

(I have an "in" once removed with Abe, and have begun the process of getting in touch with him).

Cheers
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Xose on April 14, 2009, 09:48:35 PM
Excellent info!! ;)

Congratulations for the research!! ;)

Xose
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: REDD51 on April 15, 2009, 12:21:44 AM
Some footage of the Candlestick Park concert.

http://travelsfvideo.com/beatlesmovie.html

The Altec main PA boxes are clearly visible in numerous shots, as are what appear to be two monitors in each of the downstage corners, and facing the band.

If the boxes in the corners are in fact monitors, note that they point slightly upstage and away from the vocal microphones. This makes total sense considering there was no EQ available, and pointing the speakers away from the microphones (in this case upstage of them) would be the only way to get any level at all without getting feedback first.
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Casbah on April 15, 2009, 03:30:50 AM
Quote from: 2032
(I have an "in" once removed with Abe, and have begun the process of getting in touch with him).

Cheers

Hey if you could get a scoop from Abe that would be ideal. I checked up on him online and he's clearly someone who knows his stuff.  What a resource that would be.

Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: FourMiles on April 15, 2009, 04:41:42 AM
Hi guys,
I was lucky enough to see the Beatles twice here in Chicago.. once at Comiskey Park 1965 and the International Amphitheatre 1966. Started playing guitar at age 7 in 1958, so I was ripe to be influenced at 13 in 1964 and formed my first band the summer of that year.
I would think that in the days at the Cavern Club, they were probably using their own mics and the sound engineer probably pressed the record button
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Bobber on April 15, 2009, 07:08:55 AM
Quote from: 2021

And there aren't many that could do a ballad like Paul with "Yesterday" and then belt out something like "I'm Down". His voice was a trademark of that group and a benchmark for others to chase.

Len
FourMiles

And even more remarkable that both songs were recorded in the very same session.

By the way, welcome Len and thank you for your input.  :)
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Casbah on April 15, 2009, 05:31:04 PM
I just found this online...


Bill Hanley is the guy who did sound for the Beatles at Shea for their 2nd US tour and parts of the eastern Tour...

The rest of this is taken from the article listed below...


But a gig for local Boston band The Remains, playing in Chicago, lead to something very big. The Remains member Barry Tashian has written about the experience:

"Our sound company from Boston, Hanley Sound, drove to Chicago to do the show [opening for the Beatles] with us. They pulled their truck right into the Amphitheater and set up their state-of-the-art sound equipment right beside the in-house P.A. system. What a joke! The in-house stuff was so archaic next to the powerful amps, good mics, and Altec speakers. Right before the show, Brian Epstein looked at the two sound systems and decided that the Beatles should go with our system. So the Beatles hired Bill Hanley to do the sound for the [eastern part] of the tour!"

And thus Hanley next found himself behind the board at the historic Beatles concert at Shea Stadium. He distributed Altec- Lansing speakers all around the stadium, doubled the sound typically used, doubled the power with an impressive (for the time) 600-watt amplifier system� and then when an armored car drove onto the field and John, Paul, George and Ringo stepped out, his sound system was pulverized by the power of 42,000 screaming teenage girls.

"I didn't have a snowball's chance in hell," he laughs. "It was sheer pandemonium. I had the band on the pitcher's mound, the speakers on the first and third base line, and I made this big circle of sound, all facing up, so the speakers didn't cross� but it was going against 135 dB of screaming. I couldn't approach that."


From this article...

http://fohonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=579&Itemid=1



One more link,

http://www.billhanley.org/

There is a picture of the cabinets he used on the Beatles tour on his front page...

(http://www.billhanley.org/coverpics/Atec210.jpg)
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: alexis on April 15, 2009, 08:43:33 PM
Gotta say, this is one of the more aweseome threads in a while - thanks all of you!!
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: REDD51 on April 16, 2009, 03:43:11 AM
Hanley was also the guy who did all the sound at Woodstock.
He invented floor wedges (monitors) so artists could actually hear themselves sing, and he also was the first person to take a CM Loadstar construction winch, turn it upside down, and use it to fly concert speakers (until then, all speakers just sat either on the corner of the stage, or on the ground).

That's a great post Casbah, and one more important piece of the puzzle.
Searching for Shea Stadium concert #2 as a result of reading Casbah's post has brought up a few pictures that show the field with Hanley's PA system sitting there clear as day, all 8 stacks of them!

Looking at the 8 stacks of Altec 210's that show up in the pictures Shea Stadium #2 (and in Casbah's post above), a few things start to come into focus as this thread progresses:

1) I've used Altec 210's in my very (very!!) early mixing days, and I can attest that 8 stacks of 210's would be extremely loud, even with the amplifiers common in the day (which means the screaming must have been absolutely unbelievable in terms of acoustic level).
2) 8 stacks of Altec boxes and horns is getting very close to what some folks (even today) would call a full blown PA system, something not commonly associated with Beatles live shows.
3) My belief that there was much more to the technical support of the Beatles live shows than the current record might tend to indicate seems much less far fetched than it did a couple of months ago.

It's great that folks are enjoying this thread, I certainly am!
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: REDD51 on April 16, 2009, 06:07:53 PM
This below from Glenn D. White, who was an employee at the Seattle Center on the day the Beatles performed there in '64.
(paraphrased from an original article).

"I was there for five years, and my most memorable experience was when I was doing sound for the Beatles. First of all, in 1964 bands like The Beatles and all the other bands didn't travel with their own PA systems. They relied on what was in the venue or available locally.

The Beatles sent two guys from New York ahead of them. They wanted to talk to me about sound, and the security people about security. They asked me about the sound system at the Seattle Center and asked if I could augment it to make it as loud as possible. I said "yes" we have a lot of equipment around the Coliseum. All of our amplifiers were tube amps and were about 80 watts RMS each. I added three Altec 300hz two cell horns (moden 203, on 288C Altec drivers). I put two of those, one on top of the other facing one of them back to cover the far end of the auditorium, the other one facing down a little bit to cover the far end of the main floor.
Then we had some 800 Hz. horns that were also Altecs. They were 805's, two rows of 4 cells each, and I had one of them pointed right down on the stage so that the Beatles could hear themselves and also cover the audience close to the stage. The speaker cluster was right above the stage.

I had to scrounge amplifiers from around the Seattle Center, each horn had its own 80 watt amp, and the woofers were JBL 15" models.
I used EV655C microphones for the 4 Beatles. I used 1 mic for Ringo and his drums. The Beatles had never used or seen EV655C's before, and asked questions about them, commenting on their small size. They told me that they could hear themselves clearly though my monitor system".



It appears from Glenn's recollections above as if attempts were being made as early as 1964 to put some sort of monitor system in place for the Beatles. It also is clear that in this case, the Head of the Sound Department at the Seattle Center (Glenn White) actually mixed the Beatles!
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: fendertele on April 16, 2009, 08:33:08 PM
Quote from: 63

They just used the sound system in the bigger stadiums that were used to announce the players. They didn't have monitor system to hear themselves sing. Ringo's drums were sometimes amplified with a single microphone hanging on top.

i should have wrote the full words i was being lazy PA as in players announce
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: REDD51 on April 17, 2009, 03:42:49 AM
I've not heard PA used as short form for "Player Announce", but rather always "Public Address".

Is Player Announce common elsewhere?
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Casbah on April 17, 2009, 04:22:18 PM
Hey that was a great find! Here are some pictures to go along with what Glenn was describing....


The 203's
(http://www.mediafire.com/file/n5kmdhm3myz/Altec203.JPG)


The 805's

(http://www.wardsweb.org/audio/Altec/805.jpg)
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: REDD51 on April 17, 2009, 06:56:05 PM
Casbah, you've got the best Altec pix!!
Do you own this stuff?
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Casbah on April 18, 2009, 03:31:43 AM
Yes, I have to confess, it was ME! I was the Beatles live sound engineer!!

No, actually, I just look up the model #'s online and find pictures of them, so I post em up.
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: REDD51 on April 18, 2009, 04:09:24 AM
Quote from: 1687
Yes, I have to confess, it was ME! I was the Beatles live sound engineer!!

 
I knew we'd find you eventually  :)

Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Casbah on April 22, 2009, 12:15:02 AM
So, apparently, from all this info we are finding out, its pretty clear that there was no "one" live sound engineer that travelled with the Beatles, but there is an interesting revelation: The Beatles at Shea was a historic event that  put into play the thought process on how to bring bigger sound at the stadium level.  So, here again, the Beatles actually helped create or at the very least, accelerate live sound as a separate entity even though they would never enjoy those benefits until their solo careers.

But imagine all the live sound stories that are still waiting to be uncovered? Every city probably has one to tell....Just gotta find em, now...
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: REDD51 on April 23, 2009, 02:33:20 AM
I've come across some other information in the past couple of days which seems to indicate that Neil and Mal "directed" the sound and light crew in each of the venues.

Sadly, with Neil gone, Mal gone, two of the boys gone, Brian gone............you'd almost have to sit down with Paul and/or Ringo to get the true story. They're the only guys left who were at all the shows.

One can hope that contained within the legendary unreleased portions of the Apple Corps archives, there's detailed information on aspects of their live shows that we haven't seen yet..........and that someday we'll see it!
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: An Apple Beatle on May 14, 2009, 11:28:27 AM
I just bought another Reslo Ribbon microphone..This one has a lead so I could test it. What is very apparant, is that you need a lot of signal boost to get an audible sound out of these microphones. I'm not sure if ohms law comes into play with impedance but I have had to use a modern valve pre-amp and a second pre-amp to get what is now an excitable sound. These were supposed to be the standard Mics of the day.

Cheers Kasbah and Redd...more great info. :)
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Bobber on August 12, 2009, 09:09:13 AM
As Sir Paul McCartney readies his young band for a trip to Piedmont Park Aug. 15, it might be a good time to consider sound.
Until the Beatles invented the stadium concert in August 1965, rock ’n’ roll bands had not performed for 34,000 people at a time.
Sound amplification across the musical spectrum was in its infancy. And the sound at the kickoff concert in New York’s Shea Stadium was lousy. Last month, playing at Citi Field, the stadium that replaced Shea, McCartney told the audience, “The first time we played here we couldn’t hear a thing because of all the girls screaming and the stadium sound system.”

In most stadiums the sound was equally bad. Except Atlanta.

Two songs into the 1965 Atlanta show, McCartney was shocked by the clarity: “It’s loud isn’t it?” he blurted out at the time. “Great!”

Beatles manager Brian Epstein later sent a note to the sound engineers declaring the Atlanta system “Excellent. Without question proved the most effective of all during our U.S. tour 1965.”

The show, the Beatles’ only appearance in Atlanta, went down in history as the only one in which the Fab Four could hear themselves over the shrieks of their frantic fans. How did Atlanta, a still-sleepy backwater in 1965, produce sound design beyond the ken of New York or Los Angeles?

Credit goes to a hi-fi store on Peachtree Street called Baker Audio, and its Georgia Tech-educated boss, F.B. “Duke” Mewborn. Mewborn handled sound for the show, and his set-up included something that every bar band uses today but was unheard of then: monitors.

Few musicians used monitors then because few played stadia, but also because of concerns about feedback. Aiming speakers back toward the musicians (and their microphones) would cause a feedback loop and sonic disaster, according to conventional wisdom. The Beatles had never seen them.

“There were no monitors anywhere else on earth at that time,” said Red Wheeler, a legendary Atlanta rock and roll sound man, now living in Vidalia.

Mewborn knew better. His cardioid mics had a restricted pattern that rejected ambient sound coming from the sides or below.

Of course there was still the problem of being heard over 34,000 sets of lungs.

In addition to selling records and hi-fi equipment, Baker Audio also installed public address systems in large public places, including the new home of the Braves, Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium. For special events at the stadium Baker had included four Altec 1570 field-level amplifiers, each cranking out about 175 watts of vaccuum tube-powered juice, or about 500 watts in all. These he used to power two stacks of Altec A7 speakers, each with 15-inch woofers. “It was state of the art,” said Cole Harrison, founder of Wizard Electronics, who was 14 years old when he attended that show.

“It was adequate,” said Mewborn, with typical understatement. He guesses the audience generated at least 100 decibels of scream, which is like putting your head next to a chainsaw. “We got over it, we were on top of it,” he says. “You could hear [the band] amidst the screaming.”

Today Mewborn, 75, retired from Baker Audio, has a 700-watt theater system in his East Cobb home, or slightly more wattage than he used to drive that stadium show. McCartney’s benefit concert at Piedmont Park this Saturday will probably use 300,000 watts of power, and several 18-wheelers to carry in the gear. (The 1965 gear arrived in a couple of pickup trucks.)

In any case The Lads and Epstein were happy, and proposed that Mewborn go on the road to handle sound for the rest of their shows. He turned them down. Said Keith Hicks, Baker’s current president, “[Mewborn] basically said he didn’t see much future in four guys with long hair.”
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: peterbell1 on August 12, 2009, 10:35:19 AM
Thanks for that post with all the info about the Atlanta '65 sound set-up. Excellent stuff.
I've always loved the recording of that show - you can tell the Beatles are really enjoying playing because they can actually hear themselves above the crowd for what must have been the first time in years.
They must have been disappointed that Mr Mewborn turned down the offer to handle their live sound for the rest of that tour.
Maybe they even would have continued touring after '66 if he'd started to work with them and they could have heard themselves every time they played live. They played Shea stadium with 100 watt amps - most bands now use amps larger than that to play in a local bar!
Live sound equipment really caught up with the times in 66/67, with acts like The Who and Hendrix pushing people like Jim Marshall to manufacture louder and louder gear so that they could get a good live sound. And foldback speakers began to be used more widely in the late 60s as well.
If the Beatles had carried on touring beyond '66 they would have benefitted from all the technological advances that were being made to cope with the size of the venues bands were now playing.
Maybe we could have seen The Beatles at Woodstock or something. Perhaps carrying on touring might have kept them together after 1970. Who knows?
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Casbah on August 25, 2009, 04:47:30 PM
So, then, we are to blame Mewborn for the demise of the Beatles. Get him!


Thanks for the informative post, Bobber. That was a good read.
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Bobber on August 25, 2009, 07:03:20 PM
Thanks for the informative post, Bobber. That was a good read.

My thoughts exactly! ;D
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Xose on November 29, 2009, 09:51:36 AM
This is a fantastic post... Thanx Bobber!!  ;)

BTW: does anybody know which type of microphones (=which brand and model) were used to be placed in front of their amps to amplify the signal??

Thanks in advance and best wishes!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: VOXAC100B on June 23, 2010, 11:54:12 PM
I spoke to Abe Jacobs a few years back and I can confirm the Beatles at Candlestick park used three ALTEC lansing 9844 studio monitors 40W (one either side of the stage and one facing them below on the field)

The overall wattage of the concert was around 1100W which wasn't bad with the wind blowing in the right direction! I think they used 8 x 80W amp and 6 x 60W amps for the PA.   All other info correct....the Sure mics were new at the time.  Four floor mics and two boom mics were used in the Candlestick concert....nailed to the stage!  Strangly the 120W super beatle were not mic'd up just the PA which was mixed from second base by Mort Felt of McCune Audio.

I read the company also provided a basic monitor system for Judy Garland when she performed in San Francisco way back in 1961.

I have good photos of the Beatles stage setup at the show. The Beatles were one of the first pop groups to use monitors (rarely though it depended on the sound company who hoseted the show) long before they became common in the late 60s.

Steven :)


Found out some interesting news today...I wrote to Michael Neal of McCune sound. They were the ones that provided the sound equipment for the Candlestick Park concert:


There's been a lot of interest in the Candlestick Park concert. Here's an email i received two years ago:************************************************Hello Mike I found this text on the web... as VP of technology this might be of  interest to you as it is to me!  


"When The Beatles played their last concert, at San Francisco's Candlestick Park in 1966, the mics were Shure SM56s, the speakers were modified Altec A-7s powered by Altec 1569 80-watt tube amplifiers, and McCune Sound's Mort Feld mixed the show on one or two Altec 1567 five-input rotary pot tube mixers. By modern standards, the sound system was a bare-bones setup-no monitors, no graphic EQs, no delay lines, no dynamics processors and no effects. More noteworthy, from a modern perspective, is the fact that the sound system did not include any equipment made by a UK-based manufacturer, unless you count the Vox guitar amps onstage"

Interesting it states no monitors - yet film and photographs from the concert may suggest otherwise. Hopefully when time permits you will be able to track down Abe - it would be nice to confirm the overall spec but in particular if some form of early monitoring system was used. With Kind Regards

More from Mike:

Unfortunately (to my knowledge) there's only one person still living who was involved in the audio for the show, and that's Abe Jacob. Abe is currently working in New York (for the NYC Opera, I believe), and I did have an email address for him but a hard drive crash seems to have lost it.
There are some photos floating around on the web showing the staging, and the band during the concert, but they're hard to find.
Anyway, sorry I can't be more helpful.
Mike


Mixer:
([url]http://www.eifl.co.jp/index/amplifier/image/altec_1567aL.jpg[/url])

The email states one or two mixers, I assume if he had two it would have looked similar to this...

Power Amps:
([url]http://www.soundbox.co.jp/images/Altec_1569A_11.jpg[/url])

Speakers:

([url]http://www.wardsweb.org/audio/altec_images/A7.jpg[/url])


Im assuming they went with the A7's with the horn inside for stacking purposes, but I haven't looked at Candlestick Park pictures recently, so it could be the other ones, with the horns mounted on top.

Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: VOXAC100B on June 24, 2010, 12:06:26 AM
Neil and Mal did the sound and in the early show plotted the lights as well. Mal can be seen in the shea stage organising the mic setups.


I've come across some other information in the past couple of days which seems to indicate that Neil and Mal "directed" the sound and light crew in each of the venues.

Sadly, with Neil gone, Mal gone, two of the boys gone, Brian gone............you'd almost have to sit down with Paul and/or Ringo to get the true story. They're the only guys left who were at all the shows.

One can hope that contained within the legendary unreleased portions of the Apple Corps archives, there's detailed information on aspects of their live shows that we haven't seen yet..........and that someday we'll see it!
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: VOXAC100B on June 24, 2010, 12:22:07 AM
I have photos of the ATLANTA show but couldn't see any monitors on the stage? Unless they were out in the field?


As Sir Paul McCartney readies his young band for a trip to Piedmont Park Aug. 15, it might be a good time to consider sound.
Until the Beatles invented the stadium concert in August 1965, rock ’n’ roll bands had not performed for 34,000 people at a time.
Sound amplification across the musical spectrum was in its infancy. And the sound at the kickoff concert in New York’s Shea Stadium was lousy. Last month, playing at Citi Field, the stadium that replaced Shea, McCartney told the audience, “The first time we played here we couldn’t hear a thing because of all the girls screaming and the stadium sound system.”

In most stadiums the sound was equally bad. Except Atlanta.

Two songs into the 1965 Atlanta show, McCartney was shocked by the clarity: “It’s loud isn’t it?” he blurted out at the time. “Great!”

Beatles manager Brian Epstein later sent a note to the sound engineers declaring the Atlanta system “Excellent. Without question proved the most effective of all during our U.S. tour 1965.”

The show, the Beatles’ only appearance in Atlanta, went down in history as the only one in which the Fab Four could hear themselves over the shrieks of their frantic fans. How did Atlanta, a still-sleepy backwater in 1965, produce sound design beyond the ken of New York or Los Angeles?

Credit goes to a hi-fi store on Peachtree Street called Baker Audio, and its Georgia Tech-educated boss, F.B. “Duke” Mewborn. Mewborn handled sound for the show, and his set-up included something that every bar band uses today but was unheard of then: monitors.

Few musicians used monitors then because few played stadia, but also because of concerns about feedback. Aiming speakers back toward the musicians (and their microphones) would cause a feedback loop and sonic disaster, according to conventional wisdom. The Beatles had never seen them.

“There were no monitors anywhere else on earth at that time,” said Red Wheeler, a legendary Atlanta rock and roll sound man, now living in Vidalia.

Mewborn knew better. His cardioid mics had a restricted pattern that rejected ambient sound coming from the sides or below.

Of course there was still the problem of being heard over 34,000 sets of lungs.

In addition to selling records and hi-fi equipment, Baker Audio also installed public address systems in large public places, including the new home of the Braves, Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium. For special events at the stadium Baker had included four Altec 1570 field-level amplifiers, each cranking out about 175 watts of vaccuum tube-powered juice, or about 500 watts in all. These he used to power two stacks of Altec A7 speakers, each with 15-inch woofers. “It was state of the art,” said Cole Harrison, founder of Wizard Electronics, who was 14 years old when he attended that show.

“It was adequate,” said Mewborn, with typical understatement. He guesses the audience generated at least 100 decibels of scream, which is like putting your head next to a chainsaw. “We got over it, we were on top of it,” he says. “You could hear [the band] amidst the screaming.”

Today Mewborn, 75, retired from Baker Audio, has a 700-watt theater system in his East Cobb home, or slightly more wattage than he used to drive that stadium show. McCartney’s benefit concert at Piedmont Park this Saturday will probably use 300,000 watts of power, and several 18-wheelers to carry in the gear. (The 1965 gear arrived in a couple of pickup trucks.)

In any case The Lads and Epstein were happy, and proposed that Mewborn go on the road to handle sound for the rest of their shows. He turned them down. Said Keith Hicks, Baker’s current president, “[Mewborn] basically said he didn’t see much future in four guys with long hair.”
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: VOXAC100B on June 25, 2010, 03:05:51 PM
On the festival hall tour in Melbourne you can see the controls for the PA on the stage.


A few more observations over the weekend.

Using the Australia tour as a template, I've looked at many pictures of the Beatles on stage during that tour. One thing that becomes apparent is that they used different microphones in all of the pictures taken at different venues.

This may tend to imply that the Beatles were hiring PA locally for each stop of the tour.

In one picture, John is singing into a Sennheiser 421 (also marketed as a Telefunken 421). The 421 was such a sophisticated microphone (first released in 1960) that it's still in use in major recording studios, and live performances to this day!)
The use of the 421 tends to imply that the PA they were using was probably somewhat advanced in design, or at least the peripheral equipment they hired to augment the venue PA was possibly state-of-the-art for its day.

A question:
There's a well known picture of the Beatles performing live, taken from directly overhead (looking straight down on the tops of their heads).
Does anybody know exactly where and/or when this picture was taken?

The reason I ask is because in this photo, there is a clear indication of at least 8, (posssibly up to 10) microphones visible on stage.
From a lifetime of mixing music live, I'd be of the opinion that 10 microphones would have to be mixed continuously throughout the performance by a human being.......and would tend to introduce far too many variables to just "set and forget" the venue PA system.
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: VOXAC100B on June 25, 2010, 03:09:37 PM
The pic looks like Paris France 65 the amount of wires is amazing! ha2ha

I'm sure things changed somewhat as they got bigger, but I suspect they relied on in-house PA systems and fairly basic equipment, mixed by venue staff. During the earlier cinema/theatre shows there was probably even less sophistication, as this page suggests: [url]http://www.beatlesbible.com/1964/01/16/residency-at-the-olympia-theatre-paris/[/url] ([url]http://www.beatlesbible.com/1964/01/16/residency-at-the-olympia-theatre-paris/[/url])

Here's that top-down pic. I'd also be interested in knowing where it was taken.

([url]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_4zy9XFu1894/SB2Z9oKPkdI/AAAAAAAAASk/m73qzHMm6AI/S660/topbeatles.jpg[/url])


Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: peterbell1 on June 25, 2010, 05:25:20 PM
The pic looks like Paris France 65 the amount of wires is amazing! ha2ha


I love that photo!

It looks like there are microphones in front of the 3 amps being used by John, Paul and George (I assume the amp on the right of the picture was a spare or used by the support band since it has no mic).
Someone said in an earlier post that the amps were NOT put through the PA at the Candlestick Park gig a year later, but for some reason there are mics being used at this mid-1965 show.
It seems like the Beatles just used what equipment and staff were available at each venue. Seems incredible now, when you have bands touring with literally truck loads of equipment.
Presumably the Beatles just turned up with their guitars, drum kit, guitar amps and organ (on the later tours) and everything else was provided by the venue.
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: peterbell1 on June 28, 2010, 08:16:55 PM
Earlier in this thread there was a quote from Glenn D White who did the sound for the Beatles (and others) at the Seattle Center.

I stumbled upon the full article, if anyone is interested ....

http://www.vagrantrecords.com/other/news/vgNews4.html (http://www.vagrantrecords.com/other/news/vgNews4.html)


Going off at a tangent, it's interesting to read what he says about the band rehearsing in their dressing room.
I always wondered when they ever found time to rehearse during the Beatlemania years. Must have just been dressing rooms, hotel rooms, tour buses etc., probably unamplified and with no drums for poor old Ringo! Even still, they could write a song one day, have it recorded in a handful of takes, and it would be at number one in the charts all in a matter of weeks!!
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: raxo on June 29, 2010, 11:28:23 AM
I'm sure things changed somewhat as they got bigger, but I suspect they relied on in-house PA systems and fairly basic equipment, mixed by venue staff. During the earlier cinema/theatre shows there was probably even less sophistication, as this page suggests: [url]http://www.beatlesbible.com/1964/01/16/residency-at-the-olympia-theatre-paris/[/url] ([url]http://www.beatlesbible.com/1964/01/16/residency-at-the-olympia-theatre-paris/[/url])

Here's that top-down pic. I'd also be interested in knowing where it was taken.

([url]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_4zy9XFu1894/SB2Z9oKPkdI/AAAAAAAAASk/m73qzHMm6AI/S660/topbeatles.jpg[/url])


The pic looks like Paris France 65 the amount of wires is amazing! ha2ha


I love that photo!

It looks like there are microphones in front of the 3 amps being used by John, Paul and George (I assume the amp on the right of the picture was a spare or used by the support band since it has no mic).
Someone said in an earlier post that the amps were NOT put through the PA at the Candlestick Park gig a year later, but for some reason there are mics being used at this mid-1965 show.
It seems like the Beatles just used what equipment and staff were available at each venue. Seems incredible now, when you have bands touring with literally truck loads of equipment.
Presumably the Beatles just turned up with their guitars, drum kit, guitar amps and organ (on the later tours) and everything else was provided by the venue.



That pic reminds me of these ones:
(http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/5919/thebeatlesrooftop.jpg) (http://img156.imageshack.us/i/thebeatlesrooftop.jpg/)

(http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/363/letitbbeatles.jpg) (http://img697.imageshack.us/i/letitbbeatles.jpg/)

I don't see a big change ... tho I know the rooftop is an almost impromptu show and is just about 3'5 years after ... but they were also recordering the concert ... what do you think?
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Xose on June 29, 2010, 02:34:35 PM
I have got some info about PA system used here in Spain at their gigs in Madrid & Barcelona in July 1965, as well as the company which provided the backline. I will let you know...

Best!! ;)

Xosé
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Casbah on August 18, 2010, 08:44:25 AM
In that Paris picture, I dont think the amp by the piano was theirs. It's a Fender amp and the Beatles weren't using those at this stage in their career. I'm thinking the other mics were broadcast mics for French radio and/or TV, since both concerts were recorded for radio and the evening concert was recorded for TV as well.

This was the Palais des Sports, Paris shows.  6/20/65 ? Something like that.
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: peterbell1 on August 18, 2010, 11:15:59 AM
In that Paris picture, I dont think the amp by the piano was theirs. It's a Fender amp and the Beatles weren't using those at this stage in their career. I'm thinking the other mics were broadcast mics for French radio and/or TV, since both concerts were recorded for radio and the evening concert was recorded for TV as well.

This was the Palais des Sports, Paris shows.  6/20/65 ? Something like that.

In the Paris photo, what is the box on the floor, to the left of John's acoustic guitar?

When you look at a stage photo of a band now you hardly see cables anywhere - everything is hidden away and/or taped down. I wonder if The Beatles ever tripped on any of those cables that were all over the stage?
I play in a band myself and even for small gigs we try to keep the stage area clear of wires by running them along the front or back of the stage as much as possible. In that Paris set-up there seems to have been no thought about hiding or even tidying up the wires.
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Casbah on September 12, 2010, 04:09:05 PM
Thats a good question, PeterBell.. I've been looking at the picture for 2 days when I've had time and can't figure it out. It looks like there is only one wire attached to it, but its at an odd angle  ???.



Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Bobber on September 13, 2010, 10:54:13 AM
In the Paris photo, what is the box on the floor, to the left of John's acoustic guitar?


It looks like a pedal to switch channels on the amplifier.
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Xose on November 30, 2010, 04:37:12 PM
I have got some info about PA system used here in Spain at their gigs in Madrid & Barcelona in July 1965, as well as the company which provided the backline. I will let you know...


Casa Alberdi, from Barcelona and distributors of Vox gear in Spain, provided the PA system as well as the amps for the other acts (=I mean, non-Beatles one) both in Madrid and Barcelona:

(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a326/talanca/PIX/Barcelona65concertprogram.jpg)

For Alberdi this was a very good chance to display that they were selling same gear as the one used by The Beatles:

(http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/493/alberdi.jpg) (http://img406.imageshack.us/i/alberdi.jpg/)

According to the agreement, signed by NEMS and Francisco Bermúdez (=ruler of the Spanish Management Agency who brought The Beatles to Spain) and dated 5 February 1965: "...It is agreed that you provide first class dressing room accomodation and a first class public address system with at least 3 microphones..."

You can see the Vox amps privided by Alberdi to the other groups, behind McCartney at this photo (=from Barcelona's gig):

(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a326/talanca/PIX/bcn71.jpg)

The agreement also specifies accomodation and transport inside Spain for at least 9 people.

Who??

John, Paul, George, Ringo, Brian, Mal, Neil??, Alf Bicknell and Wendy Hanson...

Xosé
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: REDD51 on July 23, 2011, 01:27:44 AM
Although I've continued my research, and been to a couple of AES conferences where I took the opportunity to ask a few questions of those whose given task and specialty it is to document and research the history of live and recorded audio..........the one thing that's still completely missing in this minor puzzle is a single guy making a statement along the lines of "I mixed the Beatles".
Because the Beatles were quite young, and audio technicians at the time were probably a decade or more older, it may not be something we'll ever really be able to hear somebody say.

Although we have some anecdotal evidence where it does appear that specific technicians were involved in both setting up, and "mixing" the Beatles live shows, what's still missing is any evidence that any one person mixed more than one Beatles live show..........that person whom you could legitimately call the Beatles live sound engineer.

Currently, and without any solid evidence (just a gut feeling, and some further anecdotal information that passed my way in the last year) I have come to believe that the Beatles live sound engineer.........for all intents and purposes.......was Mal.

Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Casbah on August 05, 2011, 01:42:34 AM
Quite honestly, in most cases, I dont think there was an engineer. These systems were primitive. Not much mixing was needed. I imagine that it went something like, turn power on, put volume up, stand by in case of feedback. Not even sure about that last part. Im imagining some janitor guy turning the amps on in a closet somewhere in the stadium.  ;D

But for musicians out there, think about when you did your early gigs, you usually rented a PA, set it and left it for the night, which is equivalent to a lot of these gigs.

Still, it would be nice to hear from SOMEONE who twiddled a few knobs for the boys. And maybe Mal DID handle some of that..

Can't we just send an email to Paul McCartney? I think Im going to. Who knows what will happen.


 

Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: KelMar on August 05, 2011, 01:52:20 AM
Quote from: Casbah
Can't we just send an email to Paul McCartney? I think Im going to. Who knows what will happen.

If you do get through to him tell him I said hi and that I think he's cute.  ;D


Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Bobber on August 05, 2011, 07:27:38 AM
If you do get through to him tell him I said hi and that I think he's cute.  ;D

Oh, and ask him who sings the aaaah's in A Day In The Life. ;D
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Bobber on August 05, 2011, 07:28:51 AM
"...It is agreed that you provide first class dressing room accomodation and a first class public address system with at least 3 microphones..."

That was never going to be a well mixed show, was it?
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: REDD51 on August 15, 2011, 02:30:31 PM
The primary reasoning behind my thoughts that Mal was their "live sound engineer" revolve around the fact that there is written and anecdotal reference to Mal handling all the instruments.

Moving the instruments around, tuning and re-stringing guitars, making sure guitar cables were in the right place prior to the shaw, setting up Ringo's drums and packing spare drum heads, etc.

Mal did all of that.
The nascent field that was "live mixing" would (perhaps) just be viewed as an extension of Mal's general roadie duties.

And yeah, wouldn't it be great if you could just sit down (or write) Paul to chat, and get a few old technical questions answered  ;)

(of course there's always the possibility that Paul might reply along the lines of "dunno, I just showed up and played".)

Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Casbah on August 27, 2011, 06:19:44 AM

(of course there's always the possibility that Paul might reply along the lines of "dunno, I just showed up and played".)

I have to agree there. Depending on his mood :)
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: REDD51 on July 06, 2014, 09:31:04 PM
It's been a while  :)

Another couple of Audio Engineering Society conferences, and some conversation over a pitcher or two of beer resulted in no amazing new information as to who might have been The Beatles live sound engineer, but did result in quite a lot of "conceptual" ideas about sound engineers and sound engineering within the time frame that The Beatles were touring and playing live.

In effect, my initial post in this thread attempted to overlay the modern concept of sound engineers who tour with a specific band, either working for the band directly, or working for the PA company - but with the band for their entire tour.

It would seem, by all the information gathered to date on the subject of "who mixed The Beatles live", that the actual title of Live Sound Engineer just didn't exist in a standalone manner during the time the lads toured and played live.
Rather, as confirmed somewhat in earlier posts in this thread, all such technical "extras" like sound and lights were primarily handled by the venue themselves, operated by venue employees, mostly with equipment they owned in-house ... the venue being asked to hire in extra equipment locally to augment the house PA if Mal deemed the existing venue PA too small.

A very telling aspect of this entire discussion is simply that The Beatles flew from gig to gig on commercial airlines, carrying everything they needed with them on the flight. There is no record I've found which would indicate that there was any trucking involved in their later (and much larger) tours. No record of any transport vehicle moving about North America hauling PA and/or lights and staging, or band equipment (as was extremely common with tours beginning in the early to mid-seventies onwards).
It would seem that everything the lads needed onstage (guitars, amps, drums, etc) was able to be moved within the luggage compartment of a commercial aircraft.

The original club tours of Europe would have involved a Commer Van hauling equipment, and driven by Mal, but certainly the later Beatlemania tours don't seem to note any trucking information.
If there was trucking information which remains undiscovered, that would certainly be a critical bit of information, and what they were hauling would answer a lot of (currently unanswered) questions.

So still, these few years after my original post - it would appear that the answer to my question in the first post of this thread is simply that Mal directed local venue personal both in advance, and on-site as to how the stage was to be set, how the live sound system was to be operated, what lighting was required, and then went on to direct the concert itself in terms of getting the band to and from the stage, getting the concert started, and on to how the concert proceeded to its eventual conclusion ... getting the guys out of the venue and back to the hotel.

The short answer would be that the lads literally just missed the era of a dedicated Live Sound Engineer traveling with the band.
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Casbah on July 08, 2014, 02:39:34 AM
I've read some things since we last posted here... and I think as you've stated, the Beatles just missed the era of the managed live sound by a few years. But I also think the Beatles helped to usher in that era. No band had played a stadium before. Bill Hanley who had been doing live sound since the 50's, was completely overwhelmed.

Actually, here is an interesting snippet about Bill's involvement with the Beatles...

Quote
But a gig for local Boston band The Remains, playing in Chicago, lead to something very big. The Remains member Barry Tashian has written about the experience:

"Our sound company from Boston, Hanley Sound, drove to Chicago to do the show [opening for the Beatles] with us. They pulled their truck right into the Amphitheater and set up their state-of-the-art sound equipment right beside the in-house P.A. system. What a joke! The in-house stuff was so archaic next to the powerful amps, good mics, and Altec speakers. Right before the show, Brian Epstein looked at the two sound systems and decided that the Beatles should go with our system. So the Beatles hired Bill Hanley to do the sound for the [eastern part] of the tour!"

And thus Hanley next found himself behind the board at the historic Beatles concert at Shea Stadium. He distributed Altec- Lansing speakers all around the stadium, doubled the sound typically used, doubled the power with an impressive (for the time) 600-watt amplifier system… and then when an armored car drove onto the field and John, Paul, George and Ringo stepped out, his sound system was pulverized by the power of 42,000 screaming teenage girls.

"I didn't have a snowball's chance in hell," he laughs. "It was sheer pandemonium. I had the band on the pitcher's mound, the speakers on the first and third base line, and I made this big circle of sound, all facing up, so the speakers didn't cross… but it was going against 135 dB of screaming. I couldn't approach that."


But Bill Hanley went on to build the massive sound system for Woodstock, a mere 4 years later.  He was already constructing cabinets and amps when he did the sound for the Beatles, he just didn't have enough of both, or a more powerful amp/speaker combination. But I am sure he learned something that day and went on to build beefier rigs.
Or, perhaps the resources just weren't there in 1965. Maybe the technology was slowly maturing. For example, Vox continued to build louder amps for the Beatles to keep up with the loudness of their concerts.

I guess I am getting away from my point, but what I am driving at, is , I think there were people available. I don't think the situation was handled properly by Brian Epstein. Was it a financial decision? No doubt sound companies were charging a premium..Or was live venue sound so new that no one really knew how to handle it correctly?  Should Eppy have had someone build a system to tour with in the US? Would it have been adequate?   ??? ??? ??? Who knows. I guess the live sound answer is it depended on the situation. I wonder if maybe some of these other bands that toured with the Beatles could shed some light. Bands like the Remains or the Cyrkle..


Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Casbah on July 08, 2014, 05:56:41 AM
Im sorry I have my dates mixed up and some of this doesn't match up. The "historic" Shea stadium concert was 1965 but clearly the quote is talking about 1966, since the Remains were on the 66 tour. 
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: blmeanie on July 08, 2014, 11:54:12 AM
all part of the lore.  Had they had sound equipment that "beat" the frenzied crowd noise that would be one less amazing thing about them, one less unique facet of their legacy.
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Davenicks on July 21, 2014, 10:12:10 PM
It appears this thread has had quite a life, but I just stumbled upon it.

First, thanks to the OP for asking the question and to all who have contributed info to a very interesting read.

A couple of things:

I do think the correct answer to your original question was "nobody"; that is, the Beatles didn't have a "sound engineer", per se, and, given the state of equipment for their early performing years, wouldn't really have needed one because they weren't really doing a "mix" as we think of it today. In the UK, with a few exceptions, they mostly played theaters which would have generally had installed PA systems for vocals; Mal and Neil would have been responsible for transporting and setting up their amps for the guitars. That would likely have been the standard for music performance in those days: an instrumentalist would be responsible for providing his own instrument (which would have included the amplifier) and a PA system would have been present for the the use of announcers, singers, and anyone who needed to be heard. It certainly also makes sense that if a venue didn't have an adequate installed system, it would have been necessary to bring one in, especially as the Beatles continually faced the challenge of being heard over the audience and would have become attuned to the need for more amplification to supplement house systems. The postings in this thread about the evolution of stage monitors are especially interesting.

I think your conclusion that Mal was likely responsible for setting up the mics and making sure there was some sort of balance to their levels is a solid one; of the people known to be in their traveling party, he is the logical candidate, but it certainly wasn't "mixing" as we know it today.

Until they started playing coliseum/stadium-sized venues (beginning, I guess with Wembley Pool, the Palais in Paris, etc.), they mostly would not have had a sound system as we currently know them. These days, everything (vocals, guitars, drums, etc.) pretty much goes into a sound system and is balanced into a cohesive mix and an engineer (sometimes with helpers) sets, monitors and adjusts the levels throughout the performance. Traveling with your own system and the crew to load it in and out is the norm. That was certainly not the case before the Beatles blazed the coliseum/stadium trail. In those smaller venues, it is very reasonable that they would have used their guitar amps (AC-15s and then AC-30 Vox gear, the most powerful amps Vox made until 1963) and a PA system for vocals without further reinforcement. As the venues got larger (and the crowd noise got ever louder), Vox stepped up with larger amps, AC-50s & AC-100s (a good web reference with lots of history is here: http://www.voxshowroom.com (http://www.voxshowroom.com)).  Also note that by 1964, it was certainly to the Beatles' advantage to travel as "light" as possible, both economically and logistically. At least from Shea '65 forward, it seems clear that miking the guitars into the "system" became more and more the standard. Certainly someone would have had to "mix" that, it seems clear that those "someones" were pretty much local in some sense (allowing for sound in Chicago being handled by someone from Boston).

As contributors to this thread have noted, it was the Beatles who spurred the development of larger sound systems for Rock acts, with Shea  '65 and Woodstock being sort of watershed events for concert sound. It should also be remembered that Paul's 1976 Wings USA tour is generally considered to be one of the milestones in concert sound (and lighting) that truly ushered in the "modern" age.

Thanks to all!

Dave in Nashville
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: KelMar on July 21, 2014, 10:55:15 PM
Welcome to the Forums Dave! I look forward to reading more informative posts like this one.
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: REDD51 on April 07, 2016, 02:39:38 AM
I had reason to come back (again) these few years later and review some of the very detailed posts that form part of this thread, as I try to complete my road map of the Beatles live touring after their fame exploded.

It is a fantastic thread, starting off with little (or no) solid information, and then folks shared what they knew and the thread has come to comprise one of the most complete examinations related to a possible Beatles live "sound guy".
I've much more firmly concluded that Mal was essentially the "sound guy" ... just not in the original sense I asked about at the beginning of this thread, and further that local PA and equipment suppliers in each city the band played in provided the set-up, personnel, and operational expertise for the live show audio equipment.

I could find absolutely no information anywhere related to trucking Beatles show equipment around the United States, which (for me) puts to rest that the Beatles had any semblance of a dedicated sound system, or a dedicated audio engineer in the sense of how we define audio engineers duties in 2016 (or even back in 2009 when I asked the question in the first post).

A piece of information related to the thread, but that I assembled well after last posting here was that the final roof top Abbey Road live concert was mixed by .... wait for it .... Alan Parsons!
Parsons was down in the basement of Abbey Road mixing the performance for the movie recording, but sending his mix back up onto the roof to (what look like) two Shure Vocal Master PA towers ... finally giving us an identifiable Beatles "sound guy" in Alan Parsons! ... albeit remotely from the basement of Abbey Road Studios icon_good

Thanks again to all who contributed ... Cheers!
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Casbah on August 20, 2016, 06:01:44 AM
It's great to see this thread still has some legs :)

Remember that time when I said I was going to write to Paul McCartney? Well, I never did it.  ;sorry

However, I just wrote him today! I figure with the new movie coming out, there might be some renewed interest in who was running the sound at these places. Apparently he has a feature which is like a lottery and if your question gets picked out of the many he will answer it and post it on his site, so keep your eyes peeled!

The only downside is Paul doesn't tend to be very detailed with his answers unless you prod him for specifics so I would love to get the chance to do a follow-up question but I hope we can get some sort of answer from him at any rate!


I gave this last msg some thought and I am leaning towards Mal not being the sound engineer at all.
Mal's job was to set up drums and instruments. When he wasn't doing that, he was there as a roadie and to help protect the Beatles and from all clips Ive seen he's usually protecting their 6 (ass!) while the cops are doing their thing up front.

I'm also not quite sure Mal would've had the mental capacity to handle the sound mixing. Sound engineers must be able to think fast on their feet when things go wrong and you need to know where to look for the trouble.  I don't know if this would've been in Mals repertoire. He's always been described as a bit dim (Sorry Mal!)and simple.

But maybe some other information has come to light that I am not aware of.

Anyway, I have a feeling some new info might make it's way out of the woodwork with this new touring documentary.
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: REDD51 on July 29, 2017, 04:53:35 PM
Quick update on this thread for those who remain interested in the original question I asked 8 years ago!

Mix magazine, a key professional audio publication, has recently published the most detailed technical information to date on the Beatles live, especially at Shea.

http://www.mixonline.com/beatles-shea-stadium/429036 (http://www.mixonline.com/beatles-shea-stadium/429036)

In the article, we have a picture of our live sound engineer! ... but unfortunately his name remains elusive.

But he is mixing the Shea Stadium show live (from behind the stage), with the film recording engineer just to his right ... finally answering the question asked in my original post to the extent that we now know there was indeed a Beatles live sound engineer ... we just don't know his name!
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Casbah on August 16, 2017, 03:40:11 AM
How about that!

Well, whoever he is, he seems very clean.
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: KelMar on August 16, 2017, 09:58:48 PM
How about that!

Well, whoever he is, he seems very clean.

And he's a real mixer, too.
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Casbah on January 04, 2018, 12:51:25 AM
I don't know if you saw it but in the Eight Days A Week documentary there is a quick video clip of these 2 guys during the Shea segment. Blink and you'll miss it :/
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Casbah on July 22, 2018, 02:06:07 AM
Ok check it out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kle2xHhRHg4# (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kle2xHhRHg4#)

At around the :57 mark. The skinny guy turns up a fader and taps a mic and the heavier guy looks over, guess he heard it in the headphones!

But what a way to do a sound check. I already know myself and I might spend the rest of this year trying to figure out who that guy is!
Title: Re: Who was the Beatles live sound engineer?
Post by: Casbah on July 22, 2018, 02:18:22 AM
So one more thing.

It occurred to me that this guy could very well have been a union man, so I contacted the Communications Workers Of America, (The parent of The International Brotherhood Of Electrical Workers) and asked them if they are able to shed any light on this guys identity. I am sure it's a reach but I'll report back with any info.