DM's Beatles forums
Beatles forums => The Beatles => Topic started by: Loco Mo on September 23, 2020, 02:01:35 PM
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I was just thinking of things that could have prevented the Beatles from being the greatest band ever. Here's a few:
If they hadn't met Brian Epstein.
If they hadn't met George Martin.
If they hadn't gotten Ringo into the band.
ESPECIALLY: If John and Paul never met - NO BEATLES PERIOD!
If the individual Beatles were not in the same age/generational grouping.
If the Beatles existed in a different decade such as the 1930s or 40s.
If John's and Paul's moms hadn't died prematurely - would this have affected anything?? It could have affected the meaningful bond they shared together which made them closer and more empathetic toward each other's lives and personalities.
If Stu had lived, would this have affected the Beatles development in any way? Very unsure about this one.
If Astrid's photos of them had never been taken - how important was that? They certainly added to their pre-fame mystique.
If John never met Yoko - this would have been a later development but it is important to consider as a possible cause for the Beatles ultimate breakup.
If the Beatles early records didn't sell at the enormous levels that they did.
If they hadn't appeared on the Ed Sullivan show.
So anyway, I think there's more what-ifs. What do you all think about possible scenarios or conditions that may have prevented the Beatles from being successful??
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Lots of great what ifs Loco. Also if Alan Williams hadnt coincidentally run into Bruno Koschmider in some random coffee shop in London and set up the whole Liverpool bands to Hamburg thing. Which is where the Beatles really developed.
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Moog: That's a great thought! What if they hadn't done the Hamburg gigs?
Also, what if they hadn't met Pete Best and therefore didn't play the Casbah Coffee Club?
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(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/Landing_of_the_Romans_on_the_Coast_of_Kent.jpg)
What if Julius Caesar had not invaded Britain?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIBGTK4fuTs# (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIBGTK4fuTs#)
;D
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([url]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/Landing_of_the_Romans_on_the_Coast_of_Kent.jpg[/url])
What if Julius Caesar had not invaded Britain?
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIBGTK4fuTs#[/url] ([url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIBGTK4fuTs#[/url])
;D
Probably not much since he packed up and left pretty quickly. Now if Claudius hadn’t reinvaded and colonised ...
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Probably not much since he packed up and left pretty quickly. Now if Claudius hadn’t reinvaded and colonised ...
Yes, Julius Caesar packed up and left after his first invasion in 55 BC. The following year he returned with a large flotilla of ships and a large force of soldiers. Caesar ultimately penetrated into Middlesex and crossed the Thames without much resistance from the Britons. This did not result in a conquest but, as you said, set up Claudius' reinvasion.
Still, an interesting thought if Britain remained isolated.
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I was just thinking of things that could have prevented the Beatles from being the greatest band ever. Here's a few:
If they hadn't met Brian Epstein.
If they hadn't met George Martin.
If they hadn't gotten Ringo into the band.
ESPECIALLY: If John and Paul never met - NO BEATLES PERIOD!
If the individual Beatles were not in the same age/generational grouping.
If the Beatles existed in a different decade such as the 1930s or 40s.
If John's and Paul's moms hadn't died prematurely - would this have affected anything?? It could have affected the meaningful bond they shared together which made them closer and more empathetic toward each other's lives and personalities.
If Stu had lived, would this have affected the Beatles development in any way? Very unsure about this one.
If Astrid's photos of them had never been taken - how important was that? They certainly added to their pre-fame mystique.
If John never met Yoko - this would have been a later development but it is important to consider as a possible cause for the Beatles ultimate breakup.
If the Beatles early records didn't sell at the enormous levels that they did.
If they hadn't appeared on the Ed Sullivan show.
So anyway, I think there's more what-ifs. What do you all think about possible scenarios or conditions that may have prevented the Beatles from being successful??
The problem with this kind of thinking is similar to what if my parents never met? Your parents? What if they just had no talent?
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Yes, Julius Caesar packed up and left after his first invasion in 55 BC. The following year he returned with a large flotilla of ships and a large force of soldiers. Caesar ultimately penetrated into Middlesex and crossed the Thames without much resistance from the Britons. This did not result in a conquest but, as you said, set up Claudius' reinvasion.
Still, an interesting thought if Britain remained isolated.
Beatles history can be very informative if you go back far enough ;D
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Beatles history can be very informative if you go back far enough ;D
(https://img.etimg.com/thumb/msid-71109962,width-640,resizemode-4,imgsize-792532/chicxulub-impactor.jpg)
Right, Moog. What if the Chicxulub impactor missed the Earth and dinosaurs were not wiped out?
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And the ultimate what if? What if The Big Bang never happened"
(https://sgaconnections.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/s-l1000.jpg)
;)
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([url]https://img.etimg.com/thumb/msid-71109962,width-640,resizemode-4,imgsize-792532/chicxulub-impactor.jpg[/url])
Right, Moog. What if the Chicxulub impactor missed the Earth and dinosaurs were not wiped out?
Well. That’s easy. This would have been The Beatles
https://youtu.be/7AR-gnrl410 (https://youtu.be/7AR-gnrl410)
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Well. That’s easy. This would have been The Beatles
[url]https://youtu.be/7AR-gnrl410[/url] ([url]https://youtu.be/7AR-gnrl410[/url])
;D
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I fear we have strayed somewhat from Loco’s premise.
While as BLMeanie said, it could get too hypothetical (I think HG wins with the Big Bang) there’s no doubt there was some great good fortune for the Beatles to become the phenomenon that they were. Some of the things Loco mentioned could easily have gone the other way. The most obvious is if they didn’t get George Martin as a producer, they could have gone down a much less supportive track to develop their skills as writers and musicians.
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The most obvious is if they didn’t get George Martin as a producer, they could have gone down a much less supportive track to develop their skills as writers and musicians.
or, they meet up with someone else to guide them and they become even more successful than they were?
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After reading the various comments, I realize that an infinite number of events or circumstances could have prevented the Beatles success.
So, I'd like to add some more what ifs:
* What if Paul wasn't a very good bass player?
* What if the Beatles were tall, short or fat?
* What if the Beatles natural hair colors were all different so that they weren't similar in appearance?
* What if the Beatles didn't call themselves the Beatles but some other name? Maybe the name Beatles is more important than we think.
* What if Brian Epstein wasn't gay, maybe he wouldn't have cared as much about promoting the boys?
* What if Pete Best were a very good drummer and smiled a lot? Was it really essential that he leave the band?
* What if Ringo's name was different like Arthur or Donald? Maybe he wouldn't have been as popular.
* What if the Beatles were a bunch of squares? Would people still have liked their music?
* What if one or more of the Beatles were not likable people?
* What if Paul had never written "Love me Do?"
* What if the early critics of the Beatles approved of them? Would the fans still have liked them or did the fans like them because they were considered to be underdogs due to the critics disparaging reviews?
* What if the Beatles were still in their teens? Did they need to be in their twenties before the fans would like them?
* What if one or more of the Beatles were ugly looking?
* What if Paul was not the "cute one" but looked ordinary or very dull?
* What if Ringo had a nose job thus eliminating his sort of clownish appearance? Would the fans not have liked him as much?
* What if George had a better singing voice and could sing anything John or Paul could? Maybe this would have seriously disrupted the chemistry of the group.
* Finally, what if you or I never existed? Maybe the Beatles wouldn't have either. I base this on "the Butterfly Effect" which proposes that the alteration of one event (however minor) could trigger a series of chained events that we couldn't possibly prove or account for. The idea was that the Butterfly's wings, depending on which way they flapped, could conceivably change the course of world history!! Yes yes seriously.
And thank you, Julius Caesar (and butterflies), for bringing us the Beatles. Hip Hip Hooray!!! cheer1
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* Finally, what if you or I never existed? Maybe the Beatles wouldn't have either. I base this on "the Butterfly Effect" which proposes that the alteration of one event (however minor) could trigger a series of chained events that we couldn't possibly prove or account for. The idea was that the Butterfly's wings, depending on which way they flapped, could conceivably change the course of world history!! Yes yes seriously.
Yes, Loco, such an alteration could create a time paradox the results of which could cause a chain reaction that would unravel the very fabric of the space-time continuum and destroy the entire universe! Granted, that's the worst-case scenario. The destruction might in fact be very localized, limited to merely our own galaxy.
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or, they meet up with someone else to guide them and they become even more successful than they were?
Possible but I think a lot less likely given what we know of the majority of producers in England at the time. George M was a bit of an exception.
I think that the Beatles were pretty strong willed. They wouldn’t have lasted too long with a non supportive producer so perhaps would have found the way forward in any case. But they might not have had that soaring take off that they got from Please Please Me onward.
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Loco, your topics are often very thought and discussion-provoking. I'm happy that you're back with us again!
I was just thinking of things that could have prevented the Beatles from being the greatest band ever. Here's a few:
If they hadn't met Brian Epstein.
If they hadn't met George Martin.
If they hadn't gotten Ringo into the band.
ESPECIALLY: If John and Paul never met - NO BEATLES PERIOD!
If the individual Beatles were not in the same age/generational grouping.
If the Beatles existed in a different decade such as the 1930s or 40s.
If John's and Paul's moms hadn't died prematurely - would this have affected anything?? It could have affected the meaningful bond they shared together which made them closer and more empathetic toward each other's lives and personalities.
If Stu had lived, would this have affected the Beatles development in any way? Very unsure about this one.
If Astrid's photos of them had never been taken - how important was that? They certainly added to their pre-fame mystique.
If John never met Yoko - this would have been a later development but it is important to consider as a possible cause for the Beatles ultimate breakup.
If the Beatles early records didn't sell at the enormous levels that they did.
If they hadn't appeared on the Ed Sullivan show.
So anyway, I think there's more what-ifs. What do you all think about possible scenarios or conditions that may have prevented the Beatles from being successful??
ESPECIALLY: If John and Paul never met - NO BEATLES PERIOD! You were right in emphasizing that particular What if?
John would have probably gone on with his current group at the time without someone, Paul, so very talented in songwriting and proficient on guitar and keyboards. Paul might have joined or formed another group. He knew George and might have let him join. There would have been a similar catalog of songs that John and Paul wrote individually and performed by their respective groups. Would these two groups have been discovered and been successful? Who knows?!
But fate brought John and Paul together and the result was The Beatles. :)
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Thank you, Hello. I like pondering what-ifs that were more immediate to the time starting with their actual formation as a band. There are so many variables that could have fed the pre-fame mix or stifled it.
The Beatles seemed to be on the same page since the get-go. I think without a certain kind of bonding chemistry, they'd not have proceeded forward by much. Think of bands that break up in the early stages (very common). So, something held the Beatles together but what was it?
I could easily see John and Paul being a mismatch but they weren't; they blended wonderfully. Why?
Of Beatles we shall speak and speculate and ask how becometh they Beatles? Even all these years later, they timelessly be Beatles!! Beatles, thy name shall liveth forever more.
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Beatles, thy name shall live forever more.
And they shall reign for ever and ever...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI6dsMeABpU# (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI6dsMeABpU#)
...Hallelujah!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Xch2sAPJDw# (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Xch2sAPJDw#)
(https://www.onthisday.com/images/people/george-frideric-handel-medium.jpg)
George Frideric Handel
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Loco, you are a real mover and shaker here!
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^^^
These a real Loco Effect at play on this site. He starts posting again and threads start flowing. icon_good
Someone might need to remake Oh Yoko as Oh Loco as a tribute.
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Moog: I love that song, "Oh Yoko." One morning months ago, I went to a Starbucks early morning for some breakfast and coffee. Outside of the lobby, there was some piped-in music playing. I didn't recognize it at first because it was an instrumental part that was playing. It was so beautiful. It took my breath away. I stopped and listened a bit longer before I entered and then heard John's voice. Even today remembering this, it takes my breath away. It was such a beautiful setting for the start of an ordinary week day.
BTW: Everyone here is really encouraging me to post most. I've never encountered so many affirmations in one place before. Yes, I was in absentia for a time but I think I needed that space. I needed to go to the Moon and sit there a while with my eyes and ears turned away from our blue planet Earth. I needed to rediscover myself not as a pile of fashioned clay or mud but as a creature of a timeless and infinite universe. So much for being a cog in a huge wheel, I needed to believe in something more than the symbolic wheel of anonymity and oblivion. I still haven't found myself because of all the mirrors everywhere, reflecting me back to me and seeing the faces of others in my own eyes and countenance.
We are on a mysterious trek across the universe. One time we're here and in another time we are light years away from where we used to be. And time is occurring all at once. Everything is happening all together, past, present and future. But something incomprehensible extinguishes any awareness we may have of the separate components of our existence which are continually subsumed into the greater hole of the Whole.
Why did I write this? It's the universe speaking of itself through one of its creatures. It is conscious and alive and because of it we know we exist or suspect that we do.
So, let it be. Later.
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Remember, Loco, we are all on that same trek. And we're all made of the same stuff. As Joni Mitchell so eloquently said:
We are stardust (billion year-old carbon)
We are golden
And we got to get ourselves
Back to the garden
She was off by a few billion years but so what?! ;D
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Paul might have joined or formed another group.
Or maybe he would have been a solo act. He was good at that...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8LbJfC0SYM&feature=emb_title# (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8LbJfC0SYM&feature=emb_title#)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQJ2ROrjbfs# (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQJ2ROrjbfs#)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gH6i9JAdJrQ# (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gH6i9JAdJrQ#)
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I was just thinking of things that could have prevented the Beatles from being the greatest band ever. Here's a few:
If they hadn't met Brian Epstein.
If they hadn't met George Martin.
If they hadn't gotten Ringo into the band.
ESPECIALLY: If John and Paul never met - NO BEATLES PERIOD!
If the individual Beatles were not in the same age/generational grouping.
If the Beatles existed in a different decade such as the 1930s or 40s.
If John's and Paul's moms hadn't died prematurely - would this have affected anything?? It could have affected the meaningful bond they shared together which made them closer and more empathetic toward each other's lives and personalities.
If Stu had lived, would this have affected the Beatles development in any way? Very unsure about this one.
If Astrid's photos of them had never been taken - how important was that? They certainly added to their pre-fame mystique.
If John never met Yoko - this would have been a later development but it is important to consider as a possible cause for the Beatles ultimate breakup.
If the Beatles early records didn't sell at the enormous levels that they did.
If they hadn't appeared on the Ed Sullivan show.
So anyway, I think there's more what-ifs. What do you all think about possible scenarios or conditions that may have prevented the Beatles from being successful??
I'd like to take a stab at a few of these :)
I think your first is the MOST important. Brian Epstein was a machine. I don't think anyone else could've done for the Beatles what this man did. He was in love with this band and they became his obsession and he ABSOLUTELY would not give up until they were a success and I don't think there was anyone else in their orbit who would've done what he did to make this happen. Most people would've given up due to rejection after a short while. I always marvel at Brian's tenacity to bring this band success at any cost, which was his own, in the beginning.
On number 4, I think John and Paul would've eventually met. John was older, but Paul was coming up. He was learning. As far as musicians go, especially when you're that age, you're aware of who is a musician in your town/city. It would've eventually gotten around to John, hey there's this guy who plays pretty good guitar and can sing even better. Maybe not that year, but within a reasonable amount of time. Since they had mutual friends it was bound to happen sooner or later and since their early bond was over wanting to be songwriters (as well as their mothers' premature deaths) which was a rare aspiration back then, I think it was in the cards either way.
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Thanks, Casbah, for the comments. I think you're right about Brian Epstein and how important he was. It's possible the Beatles would not have arrived without him.
Some people speculate that the Beatles would have been successful no matter what. I doubt this. There are a lot of failed ventures and businesses in the world. They are probably many anonymous and ordinary everyday people who could have been famous given the right circumstances. I mean if the Beatles hadn't gotten the EMI audition and no recording deal - think about it.
If John and Paul would have met regardless - well, that's speculation. It reminds me of someone who told me he would not have met his future wife if they had not worked together for a certain company. You might assume that perhaps they'd have met anyway - but, who knows?