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Beatles forums => The Beatles => Topic started by: Kevin on December 09, 2010, 11:51:58 AM

Title: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Kevin on December 09, 2010, 11:51:58 AM
Carrying on from our prog rock discussion.....
Years ago, like most people, I was amazed by the amount of innovation accreditted to The Beatles. Then one day I thought "how can this be?" How can one band, musically illiterate, who in 1960 counted much for nothing, have been responsible for so much change? It seemed as if they were responsible for every major change in music since 1963. This, as far as I could tell, had never happened before or since. How could this be? It seemed to defy the odds. One change, maybe, but three, or four?
The more I looked, the more I became convinced the answer was the most simplest one (as answers often are) - they didn't. I'm not saying they didn't contribute to changes, just that so did a lot of other people, big name acts and little heard "underground" bands. I think what makes The Beatles stand out is that they were so famous that when they did something every one noticed. I still baulk at the notion that the Beatles invented anything. Contributed -yes. Exposed to a greater audience - yes. But invented - no.
I think the sitar is a good example. Other bands had tried recording with the sitar, but dumped the idea because it sounded rubbish. David Crosby was fooling around with the sitar before George ever picked it up. Other bands had deliberately recorded guitars to sound like sitars. So yes, The Beatles were the first band to release a song with a sitar on it but by no means the first band to try. They made it popular, but certainly didn't invent the idea.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nimrod on December 09, 2010, 12:43:30 PM
can I ask, are you a fan of The Beatles Kevin ?
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Kevin on December 09, 2010, 01:00:57 PM
can I ask, are you a fan of The Beatles Kevin ?

I used to be really really into them, had the whole bedroom wall shrine thing going on. Now I'm more interested in them. And I guess interested in the way people look at them (in the late seventies they weren't highly regarded at all. That was, of course when I was really into them.) When I first heard them properly /1975 Blue Album they blew my mind in more ways than music has before or since. But I think it's a bit like your first love. You'll met a better person, but nothing will ever match that crush of first love.
I like talking about them, and deconstructing all the myth that has built up around them. I get a kick out of trying to look at them objectively. I try and look at what's there, not want I want to be there. And it's fun digging around, looking for things.
I really like their music, don't care for them much as people (though I'd like to have hung out with George - though not between 1970 and 1975, when I'd be safe from his sanctimonious sermons. I far prefer drug taking funny George  :), never listen to them as solo artists and like dissecting them.
Phew. But a fan......probably. I've got the Blue Album, Rubber Soul, two books, and I can put all the singles in chronological order in my head. Life is wonderful.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Joost on December 09, 2010, 02:44:00 PM
I do think The Beatles were responsible for a whole lot of changes. Not just because they were more talented than pretty much everyone else, but perhaps even more important: they could get away with a whole lot more than pretty much everyone else. In the early and mid 60s, you were a slave to your record company as a musician. If you'd try something knew, you'd be whistled back and urgently asked to please just stick to the tried and true formula. If you look at where pop music was in 1954 and then see where it was in 1962, there's no progression whatsoever. But The Beatles had so much credit, they could do whatever they want. If every single you've released for the past few years has been a #1 hit, then who's going to tell you you're doing it wrong? I think that creative liberty made them the innovators that they were. They were simply the only band that could afford to try something like hiring an orchestra and ask each musician to get from the lowest to the highest not in their own tempo.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Kevin on December 09, 2010, 04:32:42 PM
I They were simply the only band that could afford to try something like hiring an orchestra and ask each musician to get from the lowest to the highest not in their own tempo.

I see your point. But like in this example, what innovation are we celebrating. A rock/pop act using an orchestra? No - done.  A rock/pop act using distorted or non-rock sounds on a pop record? No - done. Using an orchestra to make distorted or non-rock sounds on a pop record? Maybe - can't think of another.
So yes, The Beatles were powerful enough to use an actual orhestra, and the skill to use it well, whereas Jo Meek would have to have used a bucket and a straw (as he did on his effects laden 1962 Telstar.) But isn't the real innovation the fact that non-rock instruments were being distorted to create a sound, which we can trace back at least far as Meek. What The Beatles did was find a very effective (but horribly expensive) way of doing it? Maybe.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Ovi on December 09, 2010, 04:38:22 PM
I do think The Beatles were responsible for a whole lot of changes. Not just because they were more talented than pretty much everyone else, but perhaps even more important: they could get away with a whole lot more than pretty much everyone else.

Yes, you're right. They were smarter, and they were not afraid to try new things. They were both original, creative and musical talentated. They did a nonsense song from the lyrics point of view(I Am The Walrus) and people loved it mainly because it sounded damn good and it was catchy. The fact that it's very original just makes you respect it and love it more.Just like your sitar example Kevin, when I first heard Norwegian Wood I had no idea that that was a sitar playing back there, but I extremly enjoyed the song because it sounded good.
They tried new stuff and they made it look cool. (the Abbey Road Side 2, the Rooftop concert, the whole Sgt. Pepper's and I could go on...)
Original stuff and ideas + Musical talent = Why the Beatles got famous and influential.At least, that's my opinion.  ;D
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Kevin on December 09, 2010, 04:51:47 PM
They tried new stuff and they made it look cool. (the Abbey Road Side 2, the Rooftop concert, the whole Sgt. Pepper's and I could go on...)
Original stuff and ideas + Musical talent = Why the Beatles got famous and influential.At least, that's my opinion.  ;D

And an opinion very much respected.
Sorry I can't help myself - Abbey road side 2 isn't the first rock/pop medley, nor the first that has a common theme. Check out 1965 Freak Out. Just that The Beatles do it so much better.
Google "Jefferson Airplane roof top concert 1968", and you'll see a filmed rooftop concert almost identical to the one in Let It Be, complete with rooftop panorama, hand held cinima verite, office workers gawking from windows, crowded streets  and even the police arriving at the end.
Sgt Pepper - concept albums had been done by Peppers arrival. Just that Pepper was bigger, brighter and more better.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nyfan(41) on December 09, 2010, 05:04:02 PM
i dont know . .
i often hear/read the opinion that the beatles had their ear to the street and popularized what was an underground trend on the rise....
some debatable/accurate beatle 'firsts' i've heard include:
-
use of feedback ( i feel fine) - john himself called this a first

backwards music (rain) - a technique john stumbled onto through a mistake whilst under the influence

classical (yesterday/eleanor) . . use of classical in a pop format anyway..

album cover as art/lyrics included/concept album - sgt pepper

tape loops (tomorrow never knows- but more famouslly rev #9) john said everyone would be making music this way one day because anyone can do it. he was right ! most modern popular music uses samples and loops

indian music - - george on love you to thru within u without...

hard hard rock - -(helter skelter) . . this is indeed a hard track

long hair, neru jackets, assorted fashion trends, drug use...... they were certainly popularizers along these lines.... did they reflect their times or change their times or both. can anyone really say?
------------------------------------------
to me the real innovation by the beatles was that they were the first really popular act wher the artist wrote the songs, played the instruments and sang the songs
-
no songwriters, studio musicians behind the scenes. in my opinion that set the standard and changed everything
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Ovi on December 09, 2010, 05:52:45 PM
Just that The Beatles do it so much better.


That.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nimrod on December 09, 2010, 11:16:16 PM
I dont like these lists of 'first' by them, as Kevin is right that some things were done by less famous people before, The Yardbirds tried to put sitar on a single called Heart Full Of Soul, it didnt sound right so Jeff Beck used a sitarish setting on his amp & guitar.........I never knew there was a concept album before Pepper though with a gatefold cover and lyrics though or did the full orchestra thing  ???

I just know that before them, the music world was very much different and out of all the bands Ive heard (and it is many) I think they had the most talent for constantly coming up with great songs, hit after hit after hit, you literally never knew what was coming next, Im old so I remember the day Strawberry Fields and Pepper came out, the effect they had was phenominal, sounds on pop records that you had never heard before like Mr Kite, the slurpy cello's on Strawberry Fields and the strange mellotron intro.

Ive always been very into bands that created new sub genres especially in prog, like Yes, Floyd, King Crimson, Genesis (early) and I love those bands with a passion, they were so clever and were such brilliant musicians (well maybe not Floyd) who adopted their own sound and complxity of arrangements........but for me at the end of the day, none of them can compare to magic of The Beatles and the sheer power of their melodies.....and I think most members of those bands would agree.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 09, 2010, 11:30:25 PM
Carrying on from our prog rock discussion.....
Years ago, like most people, I was amazed by the amount of innovation accreditted to The Beatles. Then one day I thought "how can this be?" How can one band, musically illiterate, who in 1960 counted much for nothing, have been responsible for so much change? It seemed as if they were responsible for every major change in music since 1963. This, as far as I could tell, had never happened before or since. How could this be? It seemed to defy the odds. One change, maybe, but three, or four?
The more I looked, the more I became convinced the answer was the most simplest one (as answers often are) - they didn't. I'm not saying they didn't contribute to changes, just that so did a lot of other people, big name acts and little heard "underground" bands. I think what makes The Beatles stand out is that they were so famous that when they did something every one noticed. I still baulk at the notion that the Beatles invented anything. Contributed -yes. Exposed to a greater audience - yes. But invented - no.
I think the sitar is a good example. Other bands had tried recording with the sitar, but dumped the idea because it sounded rubbish. David Crosby was fooling around with the sitar before George ever picked it up. Other bands had deliberately recorded guitars to sound like sitars. So yes, The Beatles were the first band to release a song with a sitar on it but by no means the first band to try. They made it popular, but certainly didn't invent the idea.


What is your problem with the Beatles? They are easily one of the most innovative bands in music period. The Beatles were the first band or George Harrison was the first rock guitarist to play the sitar and tamboura on a rock record. That's the innovation they played and employed it on rock records. Roger McGuinn of the Byrds and Jeff Beck actually never played Indian instruments on their records. They just imitated the sound on guitar.

Read this  book "The Dawn of Indian Music in the West" is a book by Peter Lavezzoli he states “Love You To” it’s considered the first pop song to emulate a non western form in instrumentation and form.


Do you even know why the Byrds went electric in the first place?

“When the Beatles had come out, the folk boom had already peaked," McGuinn notes. "The people who had been into it were getting kind of burned out. It just wasn't very gratifying, and it had become so commercial that it had lost its meaning for a lot of people. So the Beatles kind of re-energized it for me. I thought it was natural to put the Beatles' beat and the energy of the Beatles into folk music. And in fact, I heard folk chord changes in the Beatles' music when I listened to their early stuff like 'She Loves You' and 'I Want To Hold Your Hand.' I could hear the passing chords that we always use in folk music: the G-Em-Am-B kind of stuff. So I really think the Beatles invented folk-rock. They just didn't know it.”

Rock Music which is a popular form of music is really a synthesis of established past styles. There is nothing wrong with mixing the traditional aspects of music with elements that are not normally associated with pop or rock music.

Frank Zappa's innovations especially in the beginning consisted of incorporating avante-garde musical language of the early twentieth century—such as atonal and serial composition influence by Iannis Xenakis, and Edgard Varèse into rock music.










Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 09, 2010, 11:51:25 PM
And an opinion very much respected.
Sorry I can't help myself - Abbey road side 2 isn't the first rock/pop medley, nor the first that has a common theme. Check out 1965 Freak Out. Just that The Beatles do it so much better.
Google "Jefferson Airplane roof top concert 1968", and you'll see a filmed rooftop concert almost identical to the one in Let It Be, complete with rooftop panorama, hand held cinima verite, office workers gawking from windows, crowded streets  and even the police arriving at the end.
Sgt Pepper - concept albums had been done by Peppers arrival. Just that Pepper was bigger, brighter and more better.

First get your facts straight? Freak Out was recorded in 1966. Freak Out is not a medley but Abbey Road is. Freak Out is not even the first concept album period. So you can innovate or expand on something. You think Jimi Hendrix invented feedback and distortion?

 Also the structure of Sgt Pepper is what influenced later concept albums. The tracks faded in with loops, the introductory song and then it is reprised at the end followed up with encore.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 10, 2010, 12:15:21 AM
I see your point. But like in this example, what innovation are we celebrating. A rock/pop act using an orchestra? No - done.  A rock/pop act using distorted or non-rock sounds on a pop record? No - done. Using an orchestra to make distorted or non-rock sounds on a pop record? Maybe - can't think of another.
So yes, The Beatles were powerful enough to use an actual orhestra, and the skill to use it well, whereas Jo Meek would have to have used a bucket and a straw (as he did on his effects laden 1962 Telstar.) But isn't the real innovation the fact that non-rock instruments were being distorted to create a sound, which we can trace back at least far as Meek. What The Beatles did was find a very effective (but horribly expensive) way of doing it? Maybe.

Rock Music which is a popular form of music is really a synthesis of established past styles.

Actually "A Day in the Life" is the first rock song that I know that uses a full symphony orchestra. Even it isn't the way they used as a orhestral orgasm of sound is why peolple talk about. You think Joe Meek was first to use distortion? Well it was done before Joe Meek so what is your point? If you can find me song like "Eleanor Rigby" that has an arrangement of strings and vocals with no rock instruments then tell me? Also clearly they were using the studio as an instrument much differently than Joe Mek also.

The Beatles (Rubber Soul) 1965 Brian Wilson cited it as an inspiration for "Pet Sounds." This was where rock became a true art form. They incorporated different time signatures, new instruments, and other musical styles. This album also uses the studio as an instrument before Pet Sounds. "Think for Yourself" and "If I Needed Someone" has guitar tones and vocal harmonies closer to what would be the standard in the psychedelic movement.

The Beatles (Revolver) 1966 Revolutionary in early preoccupation with "psychedelic" effects as a studio instrument, including electronic/tape effects, sound distortion, influence of Indian music, and avant-garde.

The Beatles (Sgt Pepper) 1967 An album psychedelic classic with electronic music, avant music, world music, tape, Art SONG, reversed effects, varied time signatures with the songs that are in which the song are in either song cycle form or songs linked together

Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nyfan(41) on December 10, 2010, 01:45:48 AM
didn't know about joe meek
just googled and found that his technical ingenuity was responsible for the 1956 hit record bad penny blues... the piano of which paul borrowed for lady madonna (learned that on this website! ;D) at the time george martin was the a&r of the record company that released that single. he surely knew of meek's innovative work. cool !

and it seems that meek wrote a psychedellic concept album in 1960 !!! . . .  but it was shelved
it was called outer space music fantasy/i hear a new world and it combined skiffle/rock with unusual sound effects, harmonies & studio wizardry to approximate what music was like on other planets.
just checked it out and it gives tomorrow never knows a run for its money. nice !
meek was given the chance to work with the beatles and passed it up. he would go on to describe them as "just another bunch of noise, copying other people's music" lol
-
-
anyway-> as far as using the studio as an instrument . .  that breakthrough really goes to Les Paul
and
for unusual use of orchestra in a pop song.... can't forget spike jones ! a big influence on the beatles ! (did some youtubing and (besides the unorthodox use of orchestra) kept hearing all the barnyard animals of good morning, sound effects of yellow submarine etc)
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 10, 2010, 02:26:21 AM
and it seems that meek wrote a psychedellic concept album in 1960 !!! . . .  but it was shelved
it was called outer space music fantasy/i hear a new world and it combined skiffle/rock with unusual sound effects, harmonies & studio wizardry to approximate what music was like on other planets.
just checked it out and it gives tomorrow never knows a run for its money. nice !


1960, man.  Far out!

Joe Meek (The Blue Men) - I Hear A New World (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pehihWNMgMY#)


 ;D


Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 10, 2010, 03:48:21 AM
didn't know about joe meek
just googled and found that his technical ingenuity was responsible for the 1956 hit record bad penny blues... the piano of which paul borrowed for lady madonna (learned that on this website! ;D) at the time george martin was the a&r of the record company that released that single. he surely knew of meek's innovative work. cool !

and it seems that meek wrote a psychedellic concept album in 1960 !!! . . .  but it was shelved
it was called outer space music fantasy/i hear a new world and it combined skiffle/rock with unusual sound effects, harmonies & studio wizardry to approximate what music was like on other planets.
just checked it out and it gives tomorrow never knows a run for its money. nice !
meek was given the chance to work with the beatles and passed it up. he would go on to describe them as "just another bunch of noise, copying other people's music" lol
-
-
anyway-> as far as using the studio as an instrument . .  that breakthrough really goes to Les Paul
and
for unusual use of orchestra in a pop song.... can't forget spike jones ! a big influence on the beatles ! (did some youtubing and (besides the unorthodox use of orchestra) kept hearing all the barnyard animals of good morning, sound effects of yellow submarine etc)




Again it's nothing like "Tomorrow Never Knows". The track is one or two chords it depends on how you see it. They added multiple loops layered them by them fading in and out all over the track, processed vocals, one bass line note and Ringo basically playing a drum bar loop. The style of that track basically all over the place in pop music today to the point even people in hip-hop have acknowledged it's influence.

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,588111,00.html (http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,588111,00.html)



There so many things.

Pete Townshend implicitly made the distinction when he said 'The Beatles brought songwriting to rock 'n' roll'. That's not to say that the legacy of Three-Chord Trick classics, from Chuck's 'Johnny B Goode to the Rolling Stones “Satisfaction” aren’t great songs. But the point is the Beatles that they were using a complete arsenal of resources. The Beatles dramatically broadened the potential of the pop song.

The 12 string Rickenbocker was the instrument George Harrison influenced Roger McGuinn to use which became the sound of the Byrds and much of folk rock, power pop, and jangle pop. The Who and the Animals also used the instrument.


"They the Beatles were doing things nobody was doing. Their chords were outrageous, just outrageous, and their harmonies made it all valid. They were pointing the direction music had to go”.

Bob Dylan

There have been plenty written how the Beatles harmonic and melodic tendencies differed from the American rock and roll and R&B music that came before them.

Do you actually know anything about music theory again? I don't know anyone prior to rock and roll whose music that had classical musicians compare rock artists to the Schubert like flow of musical invention and that was Leonard Bernstein saying that. Also the Beatles went way beyond their rock and roll and pop roots. Yeh they were well versed in pop, country, R&B, assorted styles in rock and roll, European Folk and Skiffle. But went way beyond that with, bolero, ska, reggae, vaudeville, cabaret, musical hall, modern aleatory, musique concrete, atonality, electronic music, avant garde, jazz, baroque and the extended dissonant sonorities George Harrison would explore on "I Want to Tell You” and "Only a Northern Song". Again people like George Gershwin did nothing of the sort. The Beatles freely added jazz harmonies, unusual time signatures and employed varying styles of vocal harmonies to their music. They composed long songs, short songs to songs with many parts. Any listen to songs like "Blue Jay Way" or "Within You Without You" and they went way beyond the norms of popular music convention.


Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nimrod on December 10, 2010, 04:20:57 AM
Ive often wondered, was there a hit song with a reggea beat before Obla Di ?
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nyfan(41) on December 10, 2010, 04:49:12 AM

the 'i hear a new world' track that reminded me of 'tomorrow never knows'
wasn't the title track that hello goodbye posted, it was this one:

Joe Meek (The Blue Men) - The Bublight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=443lK8z41bc#)
it starts with guitar feedback fading in just like tomornevknos and then turns into a tribal drone. it even has the same 'haunted house' piano you hear at the end of tomorrow never knows and its playing a kind if atonal indian melody over the droning bass-
-
. . .  like a raga. then the hawaiian guitar comes in bending notes into semitones like a raga . .
ok, i didnt listen to the whole thing when i made my first comparison- just the beginning . . . now im going further and comparing this to classical indian music (ragas).
so im changing my comparison from tomorrow never knows to within you and without you ! haha  ha2ha
seriously though - this track is growing on me as background music !

Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 10, 2010, 04:51:03 AM
The Beatles used a ska beat as early as "I Call Your Name" in 1964. "I Call Your Name" on April 10, 1964, on the US LP The Beatles' Second Album (putting it on a British ... The insistent pounding beat, the electric 12-string guitar, the unexpected ska-tempoed instrumental break.

Getting back to this. So Les Paul or Joe Meek used the studio as an instrument before people Byrds, The Beatles, The Beach Boys, Led Zeppelin etc... That doesn't mean they didn't use it differently or expand the use of it or innovate a new sound. The one main between difference between Joe Meek and the Beatles is the Beatles were great songwriters who was combining studio experimentation with unconventional songwriting.

A lot of what the Beatles did at the time was considered unacceptable by the musical academic's, but it was obviously acceptable to the record buying public. It was not unusual for the Beatles to have more than one record in the top ten in England at the time, and not only that but they often occupied number 1 and number 2 positions as well.

Paul and John were real innovators of music; they used unusual key changes together with unusual chords and complex chord changes, as well as total shifts in tempo, and sometimes two songs were mixed together, for example "A Day In The Life" was two totally different songs, one written by Paul and the other one written by John, but it worked, it has to be heard to be believed


Take for example compare this song sonic texture to what the Doors and the Velvet Underground were doing at the time.

LUCY IN THE SKY WITH DIAMONDS  
The musical complexity—odd metres alternating in sections and 3 key changes, tambouras, Lowrey organs, altered vocals and guitars—is perfectly balanced by childlike lyrics. Talk about being proto-prog a song King Crimson used to cover when they started out.


Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nyfan(41) on December 10, 2010, 04:53:45 AM
I don't know anyone prior to rock and roll whose music that had classical musicians compare rock artists to the Schubert . . .  the Beatles went way beyond their rock and roll and pop roots. Yeh they were well versed in pop, country, R&B, assorted styles in rock and roll, European Folk and Skiffle. But went way beyond that with, bolero, ska, reggae, vaudeville, cabaret, musical hall, modern aleatory, musique concrete, atonality, electronic music, avant garde, jazz, baroque and the extended dissonant sonorities George Harrison

yeah that's a pretty good argument. there are a few compendiums with excerpted articles from 64-66 where 'serious' music and high brow intellectuals give an instant nod of approval to the beatles for their musical sophistication
-- that nod of musical approval that was denied to elvis, fabian and all of the post-sinatra youth music..
there's a scene in an elvis movie wher the girls parents and all their friends are jazz snobs. lol
-
that article on hip hop and the beatles was good - thanks !
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 10, 2010, 05:03:40 AM
the 'i hear a new world' track that reminded me of 'tomorrow never knows'
wasn't the title track that hello goodbye posted, it was this one:

Joe Meek (The Blue Men) - The Bublight ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=443lK8z41bc#[/url])
it starts with guitar feedback fading in just like tomornevknos and then turns into a tribal drone. it even has the same 'haunted house' piano you hear at the end of tomorrow never knows and its playing a kind if atonal indian melody over the droning bass-
-
. . .  like a raga. then the hawaiian guitar comes in bending notes into semitones like a raga . .
ok, i didnt listen to the whole thing when i made my first comparison- just the beginning . . . now im going further and comparing this to classical indian music (ragas).
so im changing my comparison from tomorrow never knows to within you and without you ! haha  ha2ha
seriously though - this track is growing on me as background music !




The sound that starts on “Tomorrow Never Knows” is the drone of tamboura an Indian instrument being looped it’s not guitar feedback. There is no guitar feedback at the start of the Joe Meek song you are talking about. Both songs are not alike. “Tomorrow Never Knows” is based harmonically from Indian music. There is no guitar fiffs and the ony guitar you hear is a backward guitar solo another innovation.  The song dispenses with chord changes depending on your point of view added on top of it is layered sampled loops with the bass and drum being repetitive and up-front like what you hear a lot in today’s music. As for guitar feedback many will say the Beatles “I Feel Fine” is the first pop song to feature intentional guitar feedback as part of the songwriting process.

As comparison to “Within You Without You” there nothing alike. The Beatles song is a total fusion of Classical Indian music with western strings in the spirit of psychedelic music. I always like Joe Meek but the song is nothing like the Beatles track at all in sound, instrumentation and in rhythm.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nyfan(41) on December 10, 2010, 05:14:22 AM
Ive often wondered, was there a hit song with a reggea beat before Obla Di ?
-
nimrod -- check out the song i posted in the various artists section by georgie fame (yeh yeh)
i looked him up and it seems he used to hang out and play in alot of west indian clubs and he was heavily ska influenced.
he had a jamaican trumpet player in his band at one point
if you check the offbeat of his keys,, the syncopated drum . . and the jazz solo on the sax.... it's straight ska
-
-
as to the beatles reggae ska moment- i prefer john's take on a caribbean accent when he says "delivah de lettah di soonah di bettah" in please mr postman!  ha2ha

but for a big hit i can immediately think of 'my boy lollipop"
millie small who sings it is jamaican and the arranger is skatalites legend ernie ranglin who plays guitar on it
-
earlier than that - a calypso beat hit 1945 . the andrew sisters with the morey amsterdam owned song (yes, of dick van dyke show).......
rum and cococolaa
-
hmm,,,, i wonder what the origins of 'louie louie' are. the words are about a boat trip to jamaica and some of the words are in patois . .

Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 10, 2010, 05:23:01 AM
-
nimrod -- check out the song i posted in the various artists section by georgie fame (yeh yeh)
i looked him up and it seems he used to hang out and play in alot of west indian clubs and he was heavily ska influenced.
he had a jamaican trumpet player in his band at one point
if you check the offbeat of his keys,, the syncopated drum . . and the jazz solo on the sax.... it's straight ska
-
-
as to the beatles reggae ska moment- i prefer john's take on a caribbean accent when he says "delivah de lettah di soonah di bettah" in please mr postman!  ha2ha

but for a big hit i can immediately think of 'my boy lollipop"
millie small who sings it is jamaican and the arranger is skatalites legend ernie ranglin who plays guitar on it
-
earlier than that - a calypso beat hit 1945 . the andrew sisters with the morey amsterdam owned song (yes, of dick van dyke show).......
rum and cococolaa
-
hmm,,,, i wonder what the origins of 'louie louie' are. the words are about a boat trip to jamaica and some of the words are in patois . .



Again in the rock world this is an early example. “Obla Obli Da” was an influence on the Police using reggae with rock. Sting called the track an early example White Reggae.

The Beatles used a ska beat as early as "I Call Your Name" in 1964. "I Call Your Name" on April 10, 1964, on the US LP The Beatles' Second Album (putting it on a British ... The insistent pounding beat, the electric 12-string guitar, the unexpected ska-tempoed instrumental break. O
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nyfan(41) on December 10, 2010, 05:31:56 AM
no musicfan67, i disagree with you
i listened again to tomorrow never knows and yeah its not a guitar
and the instrument that opens the joe meek song is i dont know what processed through effects
but they do kick in similarly
-
they have many similarities to me. they fade in and hit a one note drone similar . . and the piano has a similar echo to the one at the end of tmr nvr knws
so i definitely still draw a comparison - not identical, but having some similar elements
-
 about wthn u an wthout u - if u see i wrote haha - my actual comparison was to indian ragas in general of which i've listened to many
-
in fact, let me go listen again -  i probably soon hear a third thing  ha2ha
-
-
 ;sorry okay, youre gonna hate me for this musicfan . .
but i have two windows open and im playing tomorrow never knows and the joe meek song ontop of one another superimposed at the same volume
 ha2ha ha2ha ha2ha ha2ha ;yes
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 10, 2010, 05:52:46 AM
The sound that starts on “Tomorrow Never Knows” is the drone of tamboura a Indian instrument being looped it’s not guitar feedback. “Tomorrow Never Knows” is a one or two chord vamp. The songs are nothing alike in musical terms. The Beatles song is so much a modernistic electronic song that even bands like the Chemical Brothers and Beck have based whole songs on it. “Tomorrow Never Knows” again is based harmonically on Indian music. The things you hear fading in out on “Tomorrow Never Knows” are layered loops and organ drones. No one calls Joe Meek song a proto drum and bass song or a proto-techno song. Come on Joe Meek was innovative but please there nothing alike. I mean I can find some relation to "Johnny B. Good" to "Helter Skelter" because both songs have guitars but that where it ends. Have you actually the drum and bass sound on "Tomorrow Never Knows" in comparison to the Joe Meek track? I'm starting to wonder if this is a anti-Beatles forum.

Whatever the instrument that starts the Joe Meek song is not an Indian instrument. Hawaiian music was popular in Joe Meek time was popular so I am not surprised to hear that influence on the track.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nyfan(41) on December 10, 2010, 06:53:01 AM
1960
Joe Meek (The Blue Men) - The Bublight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=443lK8z41bc#)

1966
The Beatles - Tomorrow Never Knows (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a3NcwfOBzQ#)
 :-\ ;D
-
im not saying the beatles borrowed from or even heard this particular song
but ther are similar elements in the songs.
such as they both are just one chord (with only the root note and the fifth being played) for the whole song
with a major third note then being established at times by the melody
. . . spacey studio effects
 . . . and a primal percussive beat

 . . and an indian sound
as to the indian sound/comparison:
as i mention, the entire joe meek song has a bass drone of the one and five note (tonic or fifth) as is heard in indian ragas-
also, the melody being played feels like it's in a different key than the bass note because of which notes land on which part of the beat - making the music sound modal

that type of melodic phrase that's repeated over and over and then joined by the other instruments is something that defines a classical indian raga
..
then when the hawaiian guitar comes in at the end and bends notes, it creates semitones - the notes in between the notes of a western scale. that's another distinguishing characteristic of classical indian music
.
i guess the similarities i hear can be far fetched.
because when i hear that meek track and tomorrow never knows i'm reminded of
Bismillah Khan - Rag Lalith (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9_Fkbg7QBY#)  ;D

i'd be curious to know if anyone else hears ANY similarities even in the mood or vibe of these 2 3 selections


Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: An Apple Beatle on December 10, 2010, 08:16:39 AM
Ive often wondered, was there a hit song with a reggea beat before Obla Di ?

"The ska craze spread to London in the late 1950’s and early 1960’s and in the United Kingdom ska soon came to be labelled bluebeat. This music would probably have remained a mere curiosity were it not for the efforts of a white Anglo-Jamaican of aristocratic lineage named Chris Blackwell. As a hobby-like business venture he had set up a small scale distribution network for ethnic records but he had a vision about the potential appeal of Jamaica’s oscillating answer to the blues. In 1962 Blackwell took his tiny Blue Mountain/Island label to England, purchased master tapes produced in Kingston and released them in Britain on Black Swan, Jump Up, Sue and the parent label Island. Initial artists included Jimmy Cliff, the Skatalites and Bob Marley. "

As I think I read....My Boy Lollipop is considered the 1st big hit in the UK in '64. I also love Ernest Ranglin's 'Surfin. 'Simmer Down' was the Wailers first release in late 63.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Kevin on December 10, 2010, 09:55:32 AM
Just to address afew of the points raised.
But first maybe I'm victim of my wording. Maybe I should have said "Beatles as inventors." It is my response to people saying they invented this genre or that genre. Yes they were innovative, but so were loads of other artists.
Look at the Pepper thing - yes, The Beatles added to the genre. But so did other bands. Even coming up with a straight answer to "what is the first concept album" is near impossible to answer. So many acts were adding to the genre. The Beatles came up with perculiar time signatures, but so did other bands (The byrds for instance.)


“classical (yesterday/eleanor) . . use of classical in a pop format anyway..”

There have been strings on pop since pop first started. Check out Buddy Holly. The Beatles did do it so much better.

“indian music - - george on love you to thru within u without u”
Both the Kinks and The Byrds had used Indian influences before. Yes, George was the first to take it to it’s extreme (and the jury is out on whether this was a good thing.) But it was an idea already conceived.

“hard hard rock - -(helter skelter) . . this is indeed a hard track”
It is indeed, but there had been hard tracks before. (The Who for instance.) It wasn’t a new idea. Just that the Beatles did it better.

“Do you even know why the Byrds went electric in the first place?”
Yes, but they didn’t invent guitar rock, they just did it better than everyone else. Influencing isn’t the same as inventing.

“First get your facts straight? Freak Out was recorded in 1966. Freak Out is not a medley but Abbey Road is. Freak Out is not even the first concept album period. So you can innovate or expand on something. You think Jimi Hendrix invented feedback and distortion?2

But there’s a medley on it, just like there’s a medley on Abbey Road. But The Beatles one is much better. No, Freak Out wasn’t the first concept album, nor was Pepper.
No, I don’t think Hendrix invented feedback. Many people had a hand in that (Link Wray for example.) The feedback on I Feel Fine was part of a general trend in manipulating electronic sound.

“Also the structure of Sgt Pepper is what influenced later concept albums. The tracks faded in with loops, the introductory song and then it is reprised at the end followed up with encore.”
Yes, The Beatles added to the art of concept albums. But the idea of “album as a story” wasn’t invented by them.

Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Kevin on December 10, 2010, 10:20:43 AM
im not saying the beatles borrowed from or even heard this particular song
but ther are similar elements in the songs.
such as they both are just one chord (with only the root note and the fifth being played) for the whole song
with a major third note then being established at times by the melody
. . . spacey studio effects
 . . . and a primal percussive beat

 . . and an indian sound

Agreed. The crucial point is that putting distorted or maipulated electronic sounds on a pop record wasn't a new idea in 1966. Yes, The Beatles did it exceptionally well, yes The beatles added their own additions to the sounds (backwards tapes etc) but so did other acts. It was part of a general trend, with different acts adding different aspects.
My arguement is that The Beatles contributed to the idea (in glorious fashion) but didn't invent it.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Kevin on December 10, 2010, 10:56:39 AM
album cover as art/lyrics included/concept album - sgt pepper


Velvrt Undergrounds first album (March 1966) has art work by an established artist on the cover. Didn't have any real impact because they weren't as famous as The Beatles.
Though no one doubts that The Beatles, through their immense fame, made the idea popular.
I'll give the lyrics then, though bare in mind no one could do this before because music publishers wouldn't allow it (to protect sales of lyric books)
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Kevin on December 10, 2010, 11:00:39 AM
to me the real innovation by the beatles was that they were the first really popular act wher the artist wrote the songs, played the instruments and sang the songs
-
no songwriters, studio musicians behind the scenes. in my opinion that set the standard and changed everything

Uhm Buddy Holly and The Crickets? The Beach Boys? Certainly, when The Beatles became immensley popular, they made this format the respected face of pop/rock. But again, it's not an idea they concieved.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Kevin on December 10, 2010, 11:14:49 AM
Rock Music which is a popular form of music is really a synthesis of established past styles.

Actually "A Day in the Life" is the first rock song that I know that uses a full symphony orchestra.

The Beatles (Rubber Soul) 1965 Brian Wilson cited it as an inspiration for "Pet Sounds." This was where rock became a true art form. They incorporated different time signatures, new instruments, and other musical styles. This album also uses the studio as an instrument before Pet Sounds.

Yes, The Beatles could afford a bigger orchestra than every one else. Spector just overdubbed loads of musicians, but the idea was the same.
You don't think Spector and Meek used the studio as an instrument?
You think Rubber Soul was the first album to have an eclectic collection of styles? Dylans March 1965 Bring It All Back Home (as just one example)has an eclectic collection of styles. I'm sure I could dig up more. Again, people noticed when The Beatles did it because they were famous.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Kevin on December 10, 2010, 11:31:23 AM
Finally. What inspired me to think about this. I read a book about science, where someone talked about how scientific breakthroughs tend to get accreditted to Euraka moments by one person - Newton and the apple, Gallillao and the cannon balls, Einstein and E=MC2. But the truth (this man reckons) is much more mundane - the breakthroughs were really accumalations of lots of peoples ideas and actions, with one person, through their fame or skill at publicity, would be given the sole credit by the public. I think music, like everything else, works the same.
Logic (and the power of big numbers) means The beatles can't be responsible for inventing everything we see in pop music today (but can be for contributing to it, and popularising it.)
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 10, 2010, 01:55:07 PM
Yes, The Beatles could afford a bigger orchestra than every one else. Spector just overdubbed loads of musicians, but the idea was the same.
You don't think Spector and Meek used the studio as an instrument?
You think Rubber Soul was the first album to have an eclectic collection of styles? Dylans March 1965 Bring It All Back Home (as just one example)has an eclectic collection of styles. I'm sure I could dig up more. Again, people noticed when The Beatles did it because they were famous.

And Bob Dylan wasn't famous? Didn't he say the Beatles were leading the direction of where music had to go. The Beatles partially influenced Bob Dylan to go electric in the first place. You think people noticed the Beatles just because they were famous. Read this.

What sparked that original creative spark that
became prog rock?
Bill Buford:
The Beatles. They broke down every barrier that ever existed. Suddenly you could do anything after The Beatles. You could write your own music, make it ninety yards long, put it in 7/4, whatever you wanted.

Robert Fripp on Sgt Pepper
Robert Fripp- "When I was 20, I worked at a hotel in a dance orchestra, playing weddings, bar-mitzvahs, dancing, cabaret. I drove home and I was also at college at the time. Then I put on the radio (Radio Luxemburg) and I heard this music. It was terrifying. I had no idea what it was. Then it kept going. Then there was this enormous whine note of strings. Then there was this colossal piano chord. I discovered later that I'd come in half-way through Sgt. Pepper, played continuously. My life was never the same again".


Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys
"Upon first hearing Rubber Soul in December of 1965, Brian Wilson said, “I really wasn’t quite ready for the unity. It felt like it all belonged together. Rubber Soul was a collection of songs…that somehow went together like no album ever made before".


Pete Townshend of the Who     
"In a 1967 interview Pete Townshend of the Who commented "I think "Eleanor Rigby" was a very important musical move forward. It certainly inspired me to write and listen to things in that vein



I never said that Spector and Joe Meek didn't use the studio as an instrument. The Beatles version of it which was different than both of them influenced many musicians. Are you crazy Dylan Bring It All Back Home musically was still steeped in traditional popular forms of music and how it was recorded. Rubber Soul was an album musically, lyrically and the studio was as one. The music they actually were experimenting with was going beyond the conventions of the normal pop music at the time. Take "Norwegian Wood" it uses non blue modality  the verse is written in E Mixolydian and the bridge is written E Dorian.
 
 
From a musicology standpoint, a lot of their music actually is quite interesting and complex in terms of the pop idiom. How many bands do you know that can make a pop song with crazy time changes like 11/8 to 4/4 to 7/8 without anybody noticing? ("Here Comes the Sun") Or the clever harmonization of the refrain of "Eight Days a Week" where the first half is in parallel fourths/fifth (giving it a kind of weird, haunting, open sound), while the second half resolves to the more usual sixths? Or the subtle changes in the drum rhythm of "Ticket to Ride" where Ringo goes from triplets against the beat in the first couple of verses to straight eights towards the end? Or that beautiful, crazy chord that opens "A Hard Day's Night?" I mean, in almost every single original song of theirs, I can find some interesting and original that plays against the expectation of the pop songwriting idiom. And the most beautiful thing about it is that they do it so naturally, you don't even notice.

Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 10, 2010, 02:00:05 PM
Uhm Buddy Holly and The Crickets? The Beach Boys? Certainly, when The Beatles became immensley popular, they made this format the respected face of pop/rock. But again, it's not an idea they concieved.

The Beach Boys had session musicians play the instruments they were suppose to play all the time like Carol Kaye playing bass on Pet Sounds. Buddy Holly and the Cricketts yeah wrote and played their songs but the Beatles were not Johnny and the Beatles right? Get the concept.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 10, 2010, 02:04:25 PM
Velvrt Undergrounds first album (March 1966) has art work by an established artist on the cover. Didn't have any real impact because they weren't as famous as The Beatles.
Though no one doubts that The Beatles, through their immense fame, made the idea popular.
I'll give the lyrics then, though bare in mind no one could do this before because music publishers wouldn't allow it (to protect sales of lyric books)

Get your facts straight again. The Velvet Underground was released in 1967 not 1966. Even with that there has been cover art before that. Rubber Soul has one of the first psychedelic influenced album covers in rock music as it is.

Yes go knock the Beatles for the lyrics on the album cover due to money.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 10, 2010, 02:45:55 PM
Just to address afew of the points raised.
But first maybe I'm victim of my wording. Maybe I should have said "Beatles as inventors." It is my response to people saying they invented this genre or that genre. Yes they were innovative, but so were loads of other artists.
Look at the Pepper thing - yes, The Beatles added to the genre. But so did other bands. Even coming up with a straight answer to "what is the first concept album" is near impossible to answer. So many acts were adding to the genre. The Beatles came up with perculiar time signatures, but so did other bands (The byrds for instance.)


“classical (yesterday/eleanor) . . use of classical in a pop format anyway..”

There have been strings on pop since pop first started. Check out Buddy Holly. The Beatles did do it so much better.

“indian music - - george on love you to thru within u without u”
Both the Kinks and The Byrds had used Indian influences before. Yes, George was the first to take it to it’s extreme (and the jury is out on whether this was a good thing.) But it was an idea already conceived.

“hard hard rock - -(helter skelter) . . this is indeed a hard track”
It is indeed, but there had been hard tracks before. (The Who for instance.) It wasn’t a new idea. Just that the Beatles did it better.

“Do you even know why the Byrds went electric in the first place?”
Yes, but they didn’t invent guitar rock, they just did it better than everyone else. Influencing isn’t the same as inventing.

“First get your facts straight? Freak Out was recorded in 1966. Freak Out is not a medley but Abbey Road is. Freak Out is not even the first concept album period. So you can innovate or expand on something. You think Jimi Hendrix invented feedback and distortion?2

But there’s a medley on it, just like there’s a medley on Abbey Road. But The Beatles one is much better. No, Freak Out wasn’t the first concept album, nor was Pepper.
No, I don’t think Hendrix invented feedback. Many people had a hand in that (Link Wray for example.) The feedback on I Feel Fine was part of a general trend in manipulating electronic sound.

“Also the structure of Sgt Pepper is what influenced later concept albums. The tracks faded in with loops, the introductory song and then it is reprised at the end followed up with encore.”
Yes, The Beatles added to the art of concept albums. But the idea of “album as a story” wasn’t invented by them.




Ok let’s start this again. 

There is no medley on Freak Out having songs connected by hard edits doesn’t make it a medley. Actually the so-called Abbey Road Medley technically is not a medley. It’s a bunch of small fragment of songs comprises eight songs that are performed in a specific sequence in two large sections without breaks  It differs also because the songs are not lyrically tied to each other unlike a concept album or a opera. In the realm of opera (both "classic" and "rock") you find a musical approach that is very similar to the Abbey Road_ sequence), but the opera form is able to lean as heavily as it needs to upon a story line thread to enhance its musical sense of continuity; this as true in "Tommy" as it is in "Marriage of Figaro." By contrast, the extent to which the Abbey Road medley is relatively abstract at the level of its lyrics is a point worth emphasizing. So yeah the Beatles basically invented a hybrid of a songwriting style.

Oh yeah Buddy Holly used strings but did he used it in the way of “Eleanor Rigby” or “I Am the Walrus” well no. Did Phil Spector layer strings with synthesizers like the Beatles do on “Here Comes the Sun”?

Odd Time signatures have been around forever do you know music theory. The Beatles used odd time signatures before the Byrds so I guess that makes the Byrds less innovative right?  Then again the Beatles used in ways no rock artist used it before. For example by the use of Rhythmic modulation may occur at other points in a record as well, indicating a rhythmic hook. In the Beatles' 'We Can Work It Out', the rhythm changes from four to three during the lyric 'fussing and fighting, my friend'. Or changing meters basically in every bar on “Good Morning Good Morning”.

As for Indian music the drone foundation of Indian music was at the start of “Ticket To Ride” before the Byrds and the Kinks. Also it’s basically subjective saying whether you think it was a bad or good thing on George Harrison going further. And no it wasn’t an idea already conceived. “Eight Miles High” or “See My Friends” doesn’t use the Indian music in instrumentation, structure or in rhythm.

Who said the Beatles invented electric rock? The Byrds credit the BEATLES FOR INVENTING FOLK-ROCK AND THE USE OF THE RICKY ELECTRIC 12 STRING WHICH BECOME THE PRIMARY SOUND OF BOTH FOLK ROCK AND JANGLE POP.

Link Wray feedback? Well not really. “Helter Skelter” was inspired by a Who track they never heard of which ended up being “I Can See For Miles” which is a power pop song not a proto-metal song. What’s the point the Beatles were already in that territory on “It’s All Too Much” in May of 1967.

Who said the Beatles invented the rock concept album? The Ventures were doing it way before Frank Zappa. So according to your warped mind that makes Frank Zappa not innovative. Sgt Pepper is heralded in creating a new album structure in rock music.


Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Kevin on December 10, 2010, 02:46:31 PM
Get your facts straight again. The Velvet Underground was released in 1967 not 1966. Even with that there has been cover art before that. Rubber Soul has one of the first psychedelic influenced album covers in rock music as it is.

Yes go knock the Beatles for the lyrics on the album cover due to money.

Sorry typo - I meant 67. But the point was an album with an art rock cover had been released before Pepper. I don't know if the Velvets were the first, that's not my point.
Don't get the money thing. Apparently the law changed.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 10, 2010, 03:02:44 PM
1960
Joe Meek (The Blue Men) - The Bublight ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=443lK8z41bc#[/url])

1966
The Beatles - Tomorrow Never Knows ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a3NcwfOBzQ#[/url])
 :-\ ;D
-
im not saying the beatles borrowed from or even heard this particular song
but ther are similar elements in the songs.
such as they both are just one chord (with only the root note and the fifth being played) for the whole song
with a major third note then being established at times by the melody
. . . spacey studio effects
 . . . and a primal percussive beat

 . . and an indian sound
as to the indian sound/comparison:
as i mention, the entire joe meek song has a bass drone of the one and five note (tonic or fifth) as is heard in indian ragas-
also, the melody being played feels like it's in a different key than the bass note because of which notes land on which part of the beat - making the music sound modal

that type of melodic phrase that's repeated over and over and then joined by the other instruments is something that defines a classical indian raga
..
then when the hawaiian guitar comes in at the end and bends notes, it creates semitones - the notes in between the notes of a western scale. that's another distinguishing characteristic of classical indian music
.
i guess the similarities i hear can be far fetched.
because when i hear that meek track and tomorrow never knows i'm reminded of
Bismillah Khan - Rag Lalith ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9_Fkbg7QBY#[/url])  ;D

i'd be curious to know if anyone else hears ANY similarities even in the mood or vibe of these 2 3 selections





Again Joe Meek song is not a raga it’s influence by Hawaiian music. Drone is not exclusive to Indian music. It’s in all types of music like folk for example. The bass on “Tomorrow Never Knows” is a throbbing one note drone played on 8ths. Harmonically their nothing alike as “Tomorrow Never Knows” is based harmonically on Indian music and Tibetan chants not Hawaiian music. The song's droning harmony is built around one chord, a C major, an innovation borrowed from Indian music. The sound is a pulsing, and psychedelic.

When Joe Meek was recording this music HIS CHANGE OF SPEEDS WERE RELATED IN THE STYLE of The Chipmunks, Pinky and Perky and The Nutty Squirrels. When the Beatles were changing speeds they were altering it slightly to create surrealistic effects or psychedelic effects. Do you guys get the difference?

Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 10, 2010, 03:07:15 PM
Sorry typo - I meant 67. But the point was an album with an art rock cover had been released before Pepper. I don't know if the Velvets were the first, that's not my point.
Don't get the money thing. Apparently the law changed.

Are you crazy? The Beatles Revolver has an art-rock cover before the Velvet Underground. I am not saying the Beatles were the first in that area either. I don't know what you are trying to accomplish. No one creates music in a vacuum they all influenced each other. I will tell you this you will be hard pressed not find the Beatles influence in terms of combining studio experimentation in a strong pop structure. It even goes into modern Heavy Metal. IMO you are missing the one important element that the Beatles were doing with their experimentation is the songwriting and the actual vocals something that Joe MEEK is missing. The one thing people like Leonard Bernstein and Brian Wilson noticed about the Beatles first. 

Then you have these comments by modern rockers.

In ‘All My Loving,’ George and John are playing 16th notes the entire song,” explains Tom Higgenson of the Plain White T’s. “It’s really weird, and they keep it up in all the verse parts; it’s what makes it exciting and pushes it forward. And in ‘And Your Bird Can Sing,’ there’s that long harmonizing guitar solo part, which every heavy metal band and hard rock band does today. With Avenged Sevenfold, for instance, every solo is like that. It was one of the first songs to have the harmonized lead part driving the song.”

Dan Jacobs similarly affirms The Beatles’ totally modern approach to songwriting and guitar. “With even the most creative metal riff, the root of it has to flow nicely. You can really learn that from The Beatles—how to write a good base for a song. Take any basic Beatles song, and if you want to make it more metal, just take one of the lead vocal lines and turn it into a guitar part and speed it up. Bam, you got a monster metal riff!”

“‘Nowhere Man’ is my choice for their greatest guitar solo,” adds Atreyu’s Travis Miguel. “I played that solo for weeks, until I learned the complete solo to ‘Hotel California.’ And, of course, ‘Helter Skelter’ because the opening guitar line is raw as hell.”

Not surprisingly, when we polled our mostly hard-rock-based contributors, “Helter Skelter” took first place for most powerful Beatles track, its bludgeoning beat, heavily distorted production, and tortured vocals like some drunken banshee bashing its brains against a wall of broken glass.

“The ‘Helter Skelter’ riff is so heavy,” says Mike Schleibaum, who as guitarist in death metal band Darkest Hour knows a thing or two about heavy riffs. “It’s almost heavy metal, but it’s not. A lot of people say it’s the first heavy metal song ever written. ‘I Want You (She’s So Heavy)’ is another awesome song, with that hip guitar riff. And ‘I Feel Fine’ is awesome; it’s just a couple octaves, a simple chord progression, but it makes me want to party.

Peace

Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 10, 2010, 03:40:32 PM
Agreed. The crucial point is that putting distorted or maipulated electronic sounds on a pop record wasn't a new idea in 1966. Yes, The Beatles did it exceptionally well, yes The beatles added their own additions to the sounds (backwards tapes etc) but so did other acts. It was part of a general trend, with different acts adding different aspects.
My arguement is that The Beatles contributed to the idea (in glorious fashion) but didn't invent it.

 
Again you have no arguement. Putting distorted or manipulated electronic sounds on a pop record wasn't a new idea in 1966 which is kind of true but still wasn’t that common though. But why single out the Beatles again. The Beatles did a lot for this area also. “Tomorrow Never Knows” vocals are altered by using their vocals through a leslie speaker quickly adopted by many. The Beatles used Automatic Double tracking in which everyone uses today. The Beatles “Think For Yourself” is layered with two bass sounds one a regular bass and the other lead fuzz bass up front like a lead guitar. There is a distorted piano feedback at the end of “Penny Lane”. They hooked up harmoniums and pianos through guitar amps to cause distortion. “Strawberry Fields Forever” mellotron is hooked up by a leslie speaker.

There are so many examples.

Backward tapes were not really common in 1966 it was only used by a few people in pop music but rarely in rock music. I don't care if the Beatles were not the first to use backward tape. Why should the Beatles be singled out there? I don't get what you are trying to accomplish. Of course the Beatles did innovative things with backward tape. The backward vocal fade-out on "Rain", the backward guitar leads on "I'm Only Sleeping" or the backward mellotron parts on "Flying" or all those backward loops on "Tomorrow Never Knows". All of those are examples of using backward tape in terms of creating psychedelic music. Of course that invents a new way to use the studio as an instrument. Joe Meek didn’t have a psychedelic music in mind in 1960. His music was emulating science fiction sounds not the psychedelic experience.


 
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Kevin on December 10, 2010, 03:51:12 PM
I don't know what you are trying to accomplish. No one creates music in a vacuum they all influenced each other.
I'm trying to accomplish just that - no one creates music in a vacuum. I'm singling out The Beatles because this is Beatles forum and Beatle fans say that they invented this genre or that genre.
I'm not trying to find firsts (like the art rock thing). I was arguing against someone who was saying Sgt Pepper was the first. I'm not sure what was.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 10, 2010, 04:02:22 PM
I'm trying to accomplish just that - no one creates music in a vacuum. I'm singling out The Beatles because this is Beatles forum and Beatle fans say that they invented this genre or that genre.
I'm not trying to find firsts (like the art rock thing). I was arguing against someone who was saying Sgt Pepper was the first. I'm not sure what was.

 Look without Revolver there would be no Sgt. Pepper. Much of what is going on Sgt. Pepper is an extension of Revolver and “Penny Lane”/”Strawberry Fields Forever”.

 Again Sgt. Pepper was heralded for its experimentation, songwriting and for the album structure. Sgt Pepper is barely a concept album to begin with. The album concept is about an imaginary band. The imaginary band could write imaginary songs about imaginary people and situations. Again the structure of an opening song with the next track being segued into each other and then the opening track is reprised at the end with another track segued as finale  basically became the variation of many concept albums to follow. Bob Dylan was great lyrically but in terms of experimentation musically and using the studio as an instrument the Beatles blow him away. I don't think Dylan thought in those terms. For example "Being for the Benefit Of Mr. Kite" most the backing track is not recorded in real time. That was basically unheard of at the time in rock and roll.

Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Kevin on December 10, 2010, 04:29:59 PM
  Bob Dylan was great lyrically but in terms of experimentation musically and using the studio as an instrument the Beatles blow him away. I don't think Dylan think in those terms. For example "Being for the Benefit Of Mr. Kite" most the backing track is not recorded in real time. That was basically unheard of at the time in rock and roll.



Agreed. It wasn't his thing. Again, I'm not picking up Pepper on details. I know The Beatles contributed new things to the prog rock genre. I'm not arguing that. And I know your not saying it was the first concept album (or even that it's one at all) but someone else did. That was the point I was questioning.
I'm sure between us we could both come up with a huge list of "first time this instrument was produced in this way" etc. They showed innovation in that regard, but so did others. Maybe not as good, but contributions all the same.The Beatles did add detail, bitt it's the idea of the genre I'm arguing against.
Look, I really respect your opinion. But we seem to be on the side - that change comes from many places, and its damn hard to pin down a "here and now" for most big musical changes.
I think one of The Beatles greatest talents was the ability to absorb all that was going on around them, popular and underground, and turn it into an excellent finished piece for the masses. They took the muddled messes of other peoples  ideas (as those people had probably taken off someone else) and made it okay to be played on the radio. (mostly, excepting the occassional ban.) To take Freak Out, my big example. It's a hard listen, and not actually that good, and no way ever going to be commercially succesful, and therefore no way a major influence on culture. John said Pepper was going to be "their freak Out." And with their genius and unlimited resources they produced a package that blew everyone way. That takes real talent.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 10, 2010, 06:36:35 PM
For example "Being for the Benefit Of Mr. Kite" most the backing track is not recorded in real time. That was basically unheard of at the time in rock and roll.


1958...

Alvin & the Chipmunks Christmas Don't Be Late (original TV) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzTG0fTLAlU#)



;)
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 10, 2010, 06:57:14 PM
as to the beatles reggae ska moment- i prefer john's take on a caribbean accent when he says "delivah de lettah di soonah di bettah" in please mr postman!  ha2ha


1961...

The Marvelettes - Please Mr Postman (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1d6OBi93rQ#)

...The Marvelettes sang it the same way.


...just setting history straight a bit.  I feel like Marty McFly!   ;D
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 10, 2010, 06:57:56 PM
1958...

Alvin & the Chipmunks Christmas Don't Be Late (original TV) ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzTG0fTLAlU#[/url])



;)


The track is sped up tape of recorded music which of course was actual music being played. "Being for the Benefit of Mr. Kite" and well as "Tomorrow Never Knows", "Revolution #9" backing tracks are tape loops and dubs to create musical sounds almost like synthesizer. Musique Concrete artists work in this and I am sure Joe Meek has done something similiar to this also.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 10, 2010, 07:22:15 PM
1964...

Millie Small - My Boy Lollipop (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCUcbRTB6Rs#)

Millie Small



1956...

my boy lollipop barbie gaye (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIF12DXaC60#)

Barbie Gaye

A minor Rhythm and Blues hit in 1956.  But this is an example of what Kevin has been saying.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 10, 2010, 07:24:01 PM
By the way, that's Rod Stewart on harmonica backing up Millie Small.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nyfan(41) on December 10, 2010, 07:33:22 PM
1961...
...The Marvelettes sang it the same way.

oh yea, i kno HG. that's what i meant by john lennon's 'take' on the accent
his delivery is ever so slightly different then the marvelettes and for some reason it really cracks me up  ;D
(geoff emrick's book says john went around the studio with his funny fake jamaican accent during the obladi sessions - RELEASE THE TAPES!)  ha2ha
-

-
yes, millie small was a cover version but it was the one that charted  . . in '64 -
1956?! man, that original version you posted is really early - and somehow it still sounds like (yet to be invented(?)) ska with it's offbeat
-
i think if you trace ska roots to american soul, . . jazz, calypso, mento - it can kind of ping pong back onto itself like the chicken and the egg.
but alot of the early ska was heavily american r&b and soul influenced . . .  even a few beatle covers in there
THE CLARENDONIANS - YOU WON ' T SEE ME.wmv (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbhoEDdcnhw#)
-
strangely (or not) the original ska came more from jazz bands
the skatalites before they stumbled onto the signature ska sound were basically a jazz combo . . . . with some island flavor

-
note- i just read on wiki that the rod stewart harmonica was a persistant false rumour and it was actually Jimmy Powell of the Five Dimensions.
drats, that would have been too classic! lol
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nyfan(41) on December 10, 2010, 07:37:18 PM
1958...

Alvin & the Chipmunks Christmas Don't Be Late (original TV) ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzTG0fTLAlU#[/url])



;)


ok, this post was both relavant to the thread AND seasonally appropriate  ha2ha  ;D
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 10, 2010, 07:41:13 PM
note- i just read on wiki that the rod stewart harmonica was a persistant false rumour and it was actually Jimmy Powell of the Five Dimensions.
drats, that would have been too classic! lol

Awwwwww...  Darnit!  Well, the rumour ends here then.  Yes, that is too bad.  It would have been "too classic."

So, let's give three cheers and one cheer more for Jimmy Powell!  He really made that song.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 10, 2010, 08:25:13 PM
ok, this post was both relavant to the thread AND seasonally appropriate  ha2ha  ;D


Yes it is.

David Seville (Ross Bagdasarian, Sr.) was an innovator in his own right.  He would have the chorus sing slowly an octave lower and then speed up the tape to proper key.  This was 9 years before Vari-Control as used by George Martin.

Here, from early 1958, is David Seville's "Witch Doctor:"

Witch Doctor - David Seville 78 rpm! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FO1G7tIdLk#ws)



And so, Alvin And The Chipmunks came to be.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 10, 2010, 08:30:19 PM
i think if you trace ska roots to american soul, . . jazz, calypso, mento - it can kind of ping pong back onto itself like the chicken and the egg.
but alot of the early ska was heavily american r&b and soul influenced

Well put.  That's Ska.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 10, 2010, 08:49:11 PM
The track is sped up tape of recorded music which of course was actual music being played.

Right.  Like Vari-Control and Vari-Speed used a decade later.

George Martin used Vari-Control in his editing of Strawberry Fields Forever.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 10, 2010, 08:58:08 PM
David Seville

(http://www.animationarchive.org/pics/davidseville-big.jpg)

(http://theseconddisc.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/creator-ross-bagdasarian-posing-with-alvin.jpg)

Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nyfan(41) on December 10, 2010, 09:27:52 PM
good stuff!
what ever happened to the novelty record!
-
as to the beatles using snippets . .
especially on rev#9 . .
-
i've always thought that dickie goodman's 'break in' records were ahead of their time!
a true forerunner/pioneer to the use of sampling in rap
-
i first heard him in the 70s with 'mr jaws' but he was on the sample/snippet bandwaggon from the mid 50s!
Buchanan & Goodman - The Flying Saucer (Parts 1 & 2) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oxx8WZZD0Q#)
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 10, 2010, 10:41:29 PM
note- i just read on wiki that the rod stewart harmonica was a persistant false rumour and it was actually Jimmy Powell of the Five Dimensions.
drats, that would have been too classic! lol


Wait a minute!  According to this article, Dimensions' bassist Louis Cennamo says it was Dimension Peter Hogman, not Jimmy Powell, who played that famous harmonica solo:

http://www.willbirch.com/Rod%20Stewart%20-%20The%20Graveyard%20Shift.htm (http://www.willbirch.com/Rod%20Stewart%20-%20The%20Graveyard%20Shift.htm)


This all reminds me of that scene in All You Need Is Cash...Ruttling Orange Peel..."Yes sir!  I originated the Rutles.  They got it all from me.  Every single bit of it!"

The Rutles All You Need Is Cash: Part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFg3TzXS750#)

(go to 5:35)
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 10, 2010, 11:13:50 PM
Snippets and tape loops...

The Mellotron:

Mike Pinder describes how the mellotron works (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajGdNTFxRy0#ws)



...a bit before Tomorrow Never Knows
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 11, 2010, 01:18:01 AM
hmm,,,, i wonder what the origins of 'louie louie' are. the words are about a boat trip to jamaica and some of the words are in patois . .


1957...

RICHARD BERRY Louie Louie 1957 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxedxkx88t0#)

(http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/252/58454.jpg)
                                  
Richard Berry
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nyfan(41) on December 11, 2010, 01:44:59 AM
that was great!  ;yes
i know theres been alot written about the kingsman's version's lyrics and their alleged obscenity.
just now reading that the f.b.i. spent two years investigating the lyrics in the mid 60s  ha2ha
-
-
like twist and shout, to me this is one of those rare examples wher the 'rock group' remake outdoes the r&b original with sheer raw power
...
(that was pretty awesome though- especially the doowop bass)  ;D
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 11, 2010, 01:56:38 AM
Banned from the airwaves in some places too!  Kids were buying the record just to figure out what obscenities were being sung!

The Kingsmen's Louie Louie was a precursor to clue-finding in Beatles records (<----this way we stay "on topic"  ;)).

Louie,Louie--The Kingsmen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DulXNQ_N1zA#)

Louie Louie - The Kingsmen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cec1JInytH0#)


Turned out to be nuthin' with nuthin'
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nyfan(41) on December 11, 2010, 02:18:28 AM
trying to stay on topic but when i looked up richard berry it said he based louie louie on a latin song called el loco cha cha(the chords) and a chuck berry song called havana moon (which is where he 'lifted' the lyrics's island-speak and theme)
this video plays both inspirtations
the chuck berry starts at 3:05 "me sip on di rum. .  mi wonder when . . di boat will come . . "
More history of "Louie Louie" - Little Bill + Bluenotes +2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EerYrT-5VVc#)
.
.
as usual, nothing new under the sun :
 john lennon settled out of court for taking lyrics and melody from berry's catch me if u can and putting it in "come together"
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nyfan(41) on December 11, 2010, 02:26:28 AM
. . explains Tom Higgenson of the Plain White T’s. . . . in ‘And Your Bird Can Sing,’ there’s that long harmonizing guitar solo part . . .  It was one of the first songs to have the harmonized lead part driving the song.”


this whole song that les paul multitracked is awesome but check out around 1:10 . . descending harmonizing guitar lead driving the song . .
Les Paul - "Lover" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8jEkQ7FB8g#)
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nimrod on December 11, 2010, 02:27:19 AM
Agreed. It wasn't his thing. Again, I'm not picking up Pepper on details. I know The Beatles contributed new things to the prog rock genre.

not forgetting of course that at the time of Pepper there was no prog rock genre.

great thread BTW guys  :)
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 11, 2010, 02:52:23 AM
trying to stay on topic but when i looked up richard berry it said he based louie louie on a latin song called el loco cha cha(the chords) and a chuck berry song called havana moon (which is where he 'lifted' the lyrics's island-speak and theme)

I think we're starting to see the continuum of innovation in music here.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 11, 2010, 03:02:46 AM
not forgetting of course that at the time of Pepper there was no prog rock genre.

Who knows when progressive rock really started.  I think it was a movement, contributed to by many bands.  At the time, in late 1967, hearing Days of Future Passed for the first time, I knew it was something different much in the way I knew Sgt Pepper was something different a few months before. 

I first heard the term "progressive rock" a couple of years later.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 11, 2010, 03:05:46 AM
^

I still have both LPs which I purchased when they were released.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nyfan(41) on December 11, 2010, 03:20:00 AM
I'm trying to accomplish just that - no one creates music in a vacuum. I'm singling out The Beatles because this is Beatles forum and Beatle fans say that they invented this genre or that genre.
I'm not trying to find firsts (like the art rock thing). I was arguing against someone who was saying Sgt Pepper was the first. I'm not sure what was.

I think we're starting to see the continuum of innovation in music here.

 ;sorry ha2ha ha2ha ha2ha ha2ha
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 11, 2010, 03:21:31 AM
earlier than that - a calypso beat hit 1945 . the andrew sisters with the morey amsterdam owned song (yes, of dick van dyke show).......
rum and cococolaa


Talk about lifting lyrics and music, according to Wikipedia, Morey Amsterdam stole Rum And Coca Cola from Lord Invader...He was born in San Fernando, Trinidad. Invader became active in calypso in the mid-1930s. He wrote many calypsos; his most famous lyrics, "Rum and Coca-Cola", were plagiarised by Morey Amsterdam and became a hit for the Andrews Sisters. Invader travelled to New York and sued, eventually winning compensation, although the final settlement allowed Amsterdam to retain his copyright.

"Rum and Coca-Cola" - The Andrews Sisters (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVVEj1v_ul8#ws)

Lord Invader - Rum and coca cola (audio) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMWUF3LYd88#)

(http://www.folkways.si.edu/images/explore_folkways/featured_artists/350-lord_invader.jpg)

Lord Invader

Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nyfan(41) on December 11, 2010, 03:42:43 AM
wow, i'd read the story but never listened to the lord invader
morey amsterdam is quite the thief. that andrews sisters vid shows the album with the "morey amsterdam" writing credit >:(
-
but this made me think.....
the beatles certainly knew who the andrew sisters were - probably heard them on their parents radios growing up. they were one of the worlds top selling groups in their time!
in fact, their manager lou levy owned the publishing rights to i want to hold your hand when it was released
anyway..
the everly brothers had two part harmonies...
but when u listen to the three part harmony of 'this boy' or even 'because' . .
it's hard to ignore the AIRTIGHT vocal harmonies of LaVerne, Maxene and Patty
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 11, 2010, 03:51:14 AM
It's called "sibling harmony", nyfan.  As tight as The Beatles are with their harmonies, eg. Because as you mentioned, they can only come close to brothers or sisters harmonizing.  It's in the genes and anatomy.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nyfan(41) on December 11, 2010, 03:53:30 AM
ok dig it
that explains the mills brothers, the jacksons, the osmonds, the pointer sisters and the beegees
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 11, 2010, 04:03:54 AM
Right. 

Don't forget...

Lennon Sisters - Georgy Girl (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6XoP09ta-U#)

...they were all cute too.  ;)
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 11, 2010, 04:18:55 AM
the everly brothers had two part harmonies...


22 years apart...

Everly Brothers - All I have to do is dream + Cathy's Clown (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKn6h2x5IcY#)

The Everly Brothers - All I Have To Do Is Dream (From "The Reunion Concert" DVD) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i90r6OX3RYo#)


The Beatles were fans of The Everly Brothers and were influenced by them I'm sure.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 11, 2010, 04:29:56 AM
By the way, that's The Crickets backing up the Everly Brothers in 1961.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 11, 2010, 04:35:24 AM
The Beatles were fans of The Everly Brothers and were influenced by them I'm sure.



The Beatles & The Everly Brothers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBJF1jDml6I#)

Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nyfan(41) on December 11, 2010, 04:42:24 AM
the crickets huh? isn't that where the name beatles really comes from?
also i had heard that the early beatles sometimes called themselves the foreverly brothers
-
here's a haunting version of john doing the everlys followed by the beatles briefly jamming on it in the get back sessions (?)
-
in the anthology version of two of us, paul tells john "take it phil"
THE BEATLES - CATHY'S CLOWN (UNRELEASED) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGC_uaUav7w#)

Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nyfan(41) on December 11, 2010, 04:43:37 AM
oops, didnt see you posted that
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 11, 2010, 04:45:53 AM
S'alright.  I was looking for the one you posted.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nimrod on December 11, 2010, 05:16:44 AM
Who knows when progressive rock really started.  I think it was a movement, contributed to by many bands.  At the time, in late 1967, hearing Days of Future Passed for the first time, I knew it was something different much in the way I knew Sgt Pepper was something different a few months before. 

I first heard the term "progressive rock" a couple of years later.


I think there were obviously quite a few Art Rock albums out in the late 60's by The Moody Blues, The Nice, Pink Floyd but most classic prog fans cite In The Court Of The Crimson King (1969) as THE forst full blown prog album, I find it hard to disagree, 'Court' still stands up as the first 100% progressive Rock album and the one that defined the genre, the perfect album from start to end, it goes from frenetic to symphonic in a matter of seconds mixing elements of Jazz, Symphonic, Folk with Rock.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nyfan(41) on December 11, 2010, 05:47:11 AM
dont know if this is considered a link in the prog rock chain.... or even if it had influence on the later beatles ...
but i looked up robert moog . . (the inventor)
and it was saying how he met a classical musician in new york named walter carlos who ended up making the first moog synthesizer album in 68 called "switched on bach" its heavily multitracked and kind of intended to debut the moog as a viable instrument.
the sales were huge and the album eventually went platinum
carlos went on to release more classical electronic interpretations and did the soundtracks for clockwork orange and tron
also, walter carlos is now wendy carlos. that threw me off in my googling at first
this is a news piece on the moog .. at around the 3 minute mark it gets interesting with hints of baba oriely, prog rock and norweigan wood . . dont kno the date
BBC Archive Tomorrow's World Moog Synthesiser (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usl_TvIFtG0#)

and this is supposed to be like 1968's switched on bach. i dont kno if the actual album is on youtube. there are traces of abbey road here?
is it a coincidence that john admitted basing 'because' on bach??
Carlos Moog Bach ...Jesus Christus,Gottes Sohn... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ub3PPdjJLc#)
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nyfan(41) on December 11, 2010, 06:54:53 AM
is it a coincidence that john admitted basing 'because' on bach??

umm, ok im a dunce - he based it on beethoven  ha2ha
but still,
classical music on the moog tops the charts in '68 then john does 'because' . .
.
bytheway - never knew the monkees used moog before the beatles (67):
the moog solo kicks in at 1:26
The Monkees - Star Collector (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HL44BSsENJE#)
and here too
mickey dolenz was one of the first people to buy a moog. and here he poses with it. too bad he's not that good at playing it, lol  ;sorry
The Monkees Daily Nightly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfmQ6w7RW7k#)

... the point is, the beatles were monkees copyists wher moog use is concerned !!!!! lol

Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: fanofthefab4 on December 11, 2010, 02:27:18 PM
can I ask, are you a fan of The Beatles Kevin ?



 >:Very good question nimrod,I often have wondered how Kevin can call himself a Beatles fan and be on a Beatles fan site and say the inaccurate and ignorant things he says about them. ??? roll:) Any true Beatles fan who is knowledgeable about them,knows their many true innovations and how truly creative,orginal and inventive they were and ahead of their time even in a lot of their early music.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nyfan(41) on December 11, 2010, 03:21:38 PM


 >:Very good question nimrod,I often have wondered how Kevin can call himself a Beatles fan and be on a Beatles fan site and say the inaccurate and ignorant things he says about them. ??? roll:) Any true Beatles fan who is knowledgeable about them,knows their many true innovations and how truly creative,orginal and inventive they were and ahead of their time even in a lot of their early music.


for real?
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 11, 2010, 10:41:40 PM
bytheway - never knew the monkees used moog before the beatles (67)


And The Beach Boys used the Moog in 1966...Good Vibrations:

The Beach Boys - Good Vibrations live in 1966 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOAhTRbVEzc#)



Mike Love is seen playing the Moog Synthesizer secondary keyboard/"stretched metal band" on The Ed Sullivan Show in 1968:

THE BEACH BOYS "Good Vibrations" on The Ed Sullivan Show (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_Gh_pOM9n0#)


Though credited as a Theremin...

(http://www.newmusicbox.org/506/images/theremin_250x328.jpg)

Leon Theremin

...it was clearly a Moog.


Robert Moog went on to develop his own Etherwave Theremin...

(http://bigcitymusic.com/images/1000683_l.jpg)
 
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 11, 2010, 10:48:24 PM
By the way ;)    I bought one of the early "Signature Series" Robert Moog Etherwave Theremins (yes, he signed the top) several years ago. 

(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1283/1214831339_0dd712d9ee_b.jpg)


That's one tough axe to play.  I can see why Mike Love used the metal strip Moog!

Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 11, 2010, 10:56:11 PM
So...The Beatles copied The Monkees who copied The Beach Boys.


And they all copied Leon Theremin...

Leon Theremin playing his own instrument (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5qf9O6c20o#)



 ;D

Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nimrod on December 11, 2010, 11:06:43 PM


 >:Very good question nimrod,I often have wondered how Kevin can call himself a Beatles fan and be on a Beatles fan site and say the inaccurate and ignorant things he says about them. ??? roll:) Any true Beatles fan who is knowledgeable about them,knows their many true innovations and how truly creative,orginal and inventive they were and ahead of their time even in a lot of their early music.

I think your right there, anyone who doubts this should ask themselves, why were they so massively popular in every coutry that sells records and has a hit parade ? why werent The Shadows or The Everleys so massive, I think the reason was that no-one had heard (or seen) anything like them, even in non English speaking countries they were just as big.
I well remember seeing them on a magazine show from Manchester, England which was on at around 6pm for the first time, I was only a kid but I was absolutely enthralled and have been a fan ever since. All other popular acts just fell by the wayside next to them and suddenly lots of Beatle copyist bands appeared.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nyfan(41) on December 11, 2010, 11:09:21 PM
@ the theramin video - > cool !

i wonder if the prevalence of the work of men like moog and theramin impacting the music world . . .
. . set the tone for the beatles to fall prey to 'magic alex'
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 11, 2010, 11:37:07 PM
Ain't no doubt!  Magic Alex really had The Beatles suckered.


I guess you can say that Leon Theremin invented the synthesizer in 1920.  He was way ahead of the times!

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/71/Leon_Theremin.jpg)

1924



Here he is demonstrating the Theremin in 1927...

Leon Theremin demonstrates his invention in 1927 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbaG57gUsro#)


He should have invented talking movies before he demonstrated the Theremin   ;D

Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nyfan(41) on December 11, 2010, 11:49:30 PM
Any true Beatles fan who is knowledgeable about them,knows their many true innovations and how truly creative,orginal and inventive they were and ahead of their time even in a lot of their early music.
I think your right there, anyone who doubts this should ask themselves, why were they so massively popular in every coutry that sells records and has a hit parade ? why werent The Shadows or The Everleys so massive, I think the reason was that no-one had heard (or seen) anything like them, even in non English speaking countries they were just as big.

ok, i'll respond to that
in the context of other parts of this thread and just to play devil's advocate i would say . .
-
because women were attracted to them and their charisma - which suited them to be teen idols. and that was then sold
they springboarded off of that
-
. . . they were certainly much more musically talented than any other teen idols for sure!
. . . certainly musical geniuses - as songwriters and more!
-
but for arguments sake. .  some aspects of their ascent to worldwide fame can also be compared with . . new kids on the block . .  bay city rollers....duran duran
that cut them to the front of the line, if you will, to have the world's ear for their musical accomplishments
-
in other words....
they weren't playing on a level field with ALL musicians - like a string quartet of fat bald ugly musical geniuses who girls didn't like

skeptical? - one of the most talented, creative cofounding members of the rolling stones (ian stewart) was dismissed as a member because of his looks jeopardizing the groups collective sex appeal
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nyfan(41) on December 11, 2010, 11:51:53 PM
. . . and also because they were white their emulations of little richard, the isley brothers and smokey robinson had more mainstream marketability / identification factor -> then black artists of comparable musical merit
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nimrod on December 12, 2010, 03:28:14 AM
Cliff & The Shadows were attractive young men, it didnt give them Shadowmania did it?

Gerry & The Pacemakers were not attractive, they even had a fat Bass player....and yet they were enormously succesful all over the world.

To me , it ALL comes down to talent, The Beatles were a hit all over the world because of theyre great songs.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 12, 2010, 02:50:24 PM
Who knows when progressive rock really started.  I think it was a movement, contributed to by many bands.  At the time, in late 1967, hearing Days of Future Passed for the first time, I knew it was something different much in the way I knew Sgt Pepper was something different a few months before.  

I first heard the term "progressive rock" a couple of years later.


Who knows who invented what but hey "Strawberry Fields Forever" a good place to start mellotron/time signature changes/multiple part song/ and diminished chords. You have to remember the Beatles were the primary influences on early Yes, Geneisis, Pink Floyd and Robert Fripp of King Crimson. I think those musicians just expanded on the elements of say a song "Strawberry Fields Forever" and the experimental aspect of the Beatles into progressive rock. That is why many consider the Beatles proto-prog they were one of the earliest influences. Of course there were others but the Beatles impact was huge on all fronts.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 12, 2010, 03:33:18 PM
. . . and also because they were white their emulations of little richard, the isley brothers and smokey robinson had more mainstream marketability / identification factor -> then black artists of comparable musical merit


You can say this also and I will turn it around.

Blues-rock pioneered by...Yardbirds, Cream, Led Zep?" Not exactly. All those lads were eagerly devouring records by Muddy Waters, Sonny Boy Williamson, and Robert Johnson. Waters and Williamson were already electric.

No musician pops out of a vacuum, of course. Those bands, and of course the Rolling Stones, were trying to be American blues bands, but much louder and with bigger drums. The Beatles though were steeped in Chuck Berry, Little Richard, a flock of American girl groups, country and European folk music. The Beatles weren't copycats in terms of what they were doing with their R&B and blues influences. They took those influences to places nobody had ever seen before. The Beatles were famous for contrasting blues based verses with bridges that uses musical languages that totally broke the rules of blues music like “Can’t Buy Me Love” and “You Can’t Do That” for example. “Drive My Car” obviously influenced by the R&B music of Otis Redding, they create a powerful guitar sound by doubling low guitar and bass throughout the track. By the way do you guys know Otis Redding “Sitting on the Dock of the Bay” was influenced by the Beatles.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 12, 2010, 03:44:09 PM
ok, i'll respond to that
in the context of other parts of this thread and just to play devil's advocate i would say . .
-
because women were attracted to them and their charisma - which suited them to be teen idols. and that was then sold
they springboarded off of that
-
. . . they were certainly much more musically talented than any other teen idols for sure!
. . . certainly musical geniuses - as songwriters and more!
-
but for arguments sake. .  some aspects of their ascent to worldwide fame can also be compared with . . new kids on the block . .  bay city rollers....duran duran
that cut them to the front of the line, if you will, to have the world's ear for their musical accomplishments
-
in other words....
they weren't playing on a level field with ALL musicians - like a string quartet of fat bald ugly musical geniuses who girls didn't like

skeptical? - one of the most talented, creative cofounding members of the rolling stones (ian stewart) was dismissed as a member because of his looks jeopardizing the groups collective sex appeal



Well no one thought British Rock bands would make a big impact here in America. There had been occasional hits like “Telstar” and remember Cliff Richard was basically a flop here with a few minor hits.  So the Beatles actually had a lot going against them in making an impact here. That is why when the Beatles vanguard the British Invasion it set off a major chain reaction in music. Yes, their looks had something to do with it but in the end they have become the most covered songwriters in the rock era from jazz musicians to thrash metal bands covering their songs.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nyfan(41) on December 12, 2010, 04:41:00 PM
You can say this also and I will turn it around.

Blues-rock pioneered by...Yardbirds, Cream, Led Zep?" Not exactly. All those lads were eagerly devouring plagiarizing records by Muddy Waters, Sonny Boy Williamson, and Robert Johnson. Waters and Williamson were already electric.

 ha2ha

By the way do you guys know Otis Redding “Sitting on the Dock of the Bay” was influenced by the Beatles.
-
-
wow never heard that
looked it up with otis' 'day tripper' in mind and was surprised even more to see that otis redding wrote it after listening to sgt pepper  :o and called the song an extension of the beatles music
i really wonder what specific parts of sgt pepper album influenced otis redding to write dock of the bay
day in the life? little help from my friends? getting better? shes leaving home?
i dont think i'll listen to that song the same again
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: An Apple Beatle on December 12, 2010, 11:20:01 PM
Wow!...Nice touch on the theramin HG.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 13, 2010, 04:13:32 AM
Wow!...Nice touch on the theramin HG.


Thanks, An Apple Beatle.  I'm not sure, but I think the original Leon Theremin version of the theremin is the only instrument played without touching it.  It really is difficult to play...

Theremin Lesson One (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cd4jvtAr8JM#)


The Moog Synthesizer secondary metal strip keyboard is a whole lot easier to play.  You can see in the video I posted that Mike Love has a keyboard card mounted above the strip.  Still, he's concentrating very hard on playing the Moog while singing at the same time. 

Here's the full version:

The Beach Boys Good Vibrations. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyf0HApyfVo#noexternalembed-ws)


So, The Beatles first used the Moog Synthesizer recording Abbey Road, three years after The Beach Boys.  Hopefully Joost will spot this thread.  I'm sure he can comment further on The Beach Boys' use of the Moog Synthesizer.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 13, 2010, 04:40:44 AM
Banned from the airwaves in some places too!  Kids were buying the record just to figure out what obscenities were being sung!

The Kingsmen's Louie Louie was a precursor to clue-finding in Beatles records (<----this way we stay "on topic"  ;)).

Louie,Louie--The Kingsmen ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DulXNQ_N1zA#[/url])

Louie Louie - The Kingsmen ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cec1JInytH0#[/url])


Turned out to be nuthin' with nuthin'


I don’t know what this has to with the Beatles. People were looking for backward messages on Beatles songs that hinted Paul McCartney had died. Which of course was crazy.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 13, 2010, 04:53:37 AM
this whole song that les paul multitracked is awesome but check out around 1:10 . . descending harmonizing guitar lead driving the song . .
Les Paul - "Lover" ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8jEkQ7FB8g#[/url])


Thanks for the link but it's not the same thing but nice try.  "And Your Bird Can Sing", where George and Paul (both on guitar) play in harmony with each other like a twin lead guitar attack. Think Thin Lizzy, having two guitarists, made great use of this, as did many other bands. Justin Hayward of the Moody Blues, for instance, would usually add (overdub) additional harmony lines to the recordings (The Land of Make Believe, You and Me and Isn't Life Strange are great examples. ). "
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 13, 2010, 05:11:27 AM
Snippets and tape loops...

The Mellotron:

Mike Pinder describes how the mellotron works ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajGdNTFxRy0#ws[/url])



...a bit before Tomorrow Never Knows



There is a difference between a mellotron than actually what is going on “Tomorrow Never Knows”. McCartney supplied a bag of ¼ inch audio tape loops he had made at home after listening to Stockhausen's Gesang der Jünglinge. By disabling the erase head of a tape recorder and then spooling a continuous loop of tape through the machine while recording, the tape would constantly overdub itself, creating a saturation effect, a technique used in musique concrète. There at least six different loops some of this contain these sounds.

 A "seagull" or "American Indian" whooping effect (which was McCartney shouting/laughing).
An orchestral chord of B flat major (from a Sibelius symphony) (0:19)
A Mellotron Mk.II, played with the "flute" tape set (0:22)

Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 13, 2010, 05:19:50 AM
I don’t know what this has to with the Beatles. People were looking for backward messages on Beatles songs that hinted Paul McCartney had died. Which of course was crazy.


Yes, we strayed a bit, Musicfan67, but we were commenting on John using a Caribbean accent in Mr. Postman...Deliver de letter, the sooner de better.  You picked up on my attempt to show that people were listening to records at assorted speeds trying to decipher lyrics about three years before everyone was doing that with Beatles records (as I mentioned in my post).  ;)
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 13, 2010, 05:28:09 AM

There is a difference between a mellotron than actually what is going on “Tomorrow Never Knows”. McCartney supplied a bag of ¼ inch audio tape loops he had made at home after listening to Stockhausen's Gesang der Jünglinge. By disabling the erase head of a tape recorder and then spooling a continuous loop of tape through the machine while recording, the tape would constantly overdub itself, creating a saturation effect, a technique used in musique concrète. There at least six different loops some of this contain these sounds.

 A "seagull" or "American Indian" whooping effect (which was McCartney shouting/laughing).
An orchestral chord of B flat major (from a Sibelius symphony) (0:19)
A Mellotron Mk.II, played with the "flute" tape set (0:22)



I'm quite aware of the difference.  I meant that George Martin used the design of the mellotron as a basis for his own innovative use of the tape deck to produce Tomorrow Never Knows.

Innovations frequently elaborate on previous innovations.  I learned that in the few years I did research in physiology.  And even in my career, surgery, current surgical techniques and instrumentation have evolved from previous techniques and technology.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 13, 2010, 05:30:41 AM
Thanks, An Apple Beatle.  I'm not sure, but I think the original Leon Theremin version of the theremin is the only instrument played without touching it.  It really is difficult to play...

Theremin Lesson One ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cd4jvtAr8JM#[/url])


The Moog Synthesizer secondary metal strip keyboard is a whole lot easier to play.  You can see in the video I posted that Mike Love has a keyboard card mounted above the strip.  Still, he's concentrating very hard on playing the Moog while singing at the same time. 

Here's the full version:

The Beach Boys Good Vibrations. ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyf0HApyfVo#noexternalembed-ws[/url])


So, The Beatles first used the Moog Synthesizer recording Abbey Road, three years after The Beach Boys.  Hopefully Joost will spot this thread.  I'm sure he can comment further on The Beach Boys' use of the Moog Synthesizer.



By the way are any of you guys Beatles fans. Does it matter the Beatles didn’t use a Theremin or synthesizer before the Beach Boys? I don’t remember the Beach Boys using a mellotron or sitars. 
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 13, 2010, 05:32:32 AM
Music, surgery and other fields will continue to evolve.  In a previous post, i used the word continuum.  I think this concept is quite relevant to this thread.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 13, 2010, 05:34:33 AM
I'm quite aware of the difference.  I meant that George Martin used the design of the mellotron as a basis for his own innovative use of the tape deck to produce Tomorrow Never Knows.

Innovations frequently elaborate on previous innovations.  I learned that in the few years I did research in physiology.  And even in my career, surgery, current surgical techniques and instrumentation have evolved from previous techniques and technology.

I like George Martin but the loops were Paul McCartney idea not George Martin on "Tomorrow Never Knows". The Beatles were well aware of the mellotron back in 1965.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 13, 2010, 05:37:31 AM
Music, surgery and other fields will continue to evolve.  In a previous post, i used the word continuum.  I think this concept is quite relevant to this thread.

Honestly what do you mean when you say continuum?
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 13, 2010, 05:41:21 AM
By the way are any of you guys Beatles fans. Does it matter the Beatles didn’t use a Theremin or synthesizer before the Beach Boys? I don’t remember the Beach Boys using a mellotron or sitars.  

Please don't doubt my depth at being a Beatles fan, or anyone else's here for that matter.  But the topic is Beatles As Innovators.  Precedents can surely be cited in this thread.

Yes, The Beatles were pioneers in music on many levels.  Having lived though the era, I can personally attest to that.  But this is an open forum to express thoughts on this particular subject.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 13, 2010, 05:41:50 AM
Yes, we strayed a bit, Musicfan67, but we were commenting on John using a Caribbean accent in Mr. Postman...Deliver de letter, the sooner de better.  You picked up on my attempt to show that people were listening to records at assorted speeds trying to decipher lyrics about three years before everyone was doing that with Beatles records (as I mentioned in my post).  ;)

It's kind of frustrating this thread. People were looking for backward messages in Beatles records which is a totally different technique than what is going on with "Louie Louie".
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 13, 2010, 05:48:24 AM
Please don't doubt my depth at being a Beatles fan, or anyone else's here for that matter.  But the topic is Beatles As Innovators.  Precedents can surely be cited in this thread.

Yes, The Beatles were pioneers in music on many levels.  Having lived though the era, I can personally attest to that.  But this is an open forum to express thoughts on this particular subject.

I will give you an example why I think this thread is frustrating. When the Beatles were using change of speeds, loops, backward tape or putting their vocals through a leslie speaker for the purpose of creating psychedelic music. Of course that's an innovation it was basically new way to produce music. I have people then mentioning Joe Meek using some of the same things but he was not creating music with psychedelic rock in mind.

Then I have to explain what’s the difference between “Tomorrow Never Knows” and a song Joe Meek did in 1960 or what the Beatles did with “And Your Bird Can Sing” to a song that was recorded in the 1940’s.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Bobber on December 13, 2010, 11:19:16 AM
By the way are any of you guys Beatles fans.

Relax Musicfan. Your opinion is much appreciated and the discussion is a tough one with strong points from both sides. Nothing wrong with that. It's all Beatlesfans here, but that doesn't mean everybody takes everything for granted, including Kevin.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: An Apple Beatle on December 13, 2010, 12:00:27 PM
Please don't doubt my depth at being a Beatles fan, or anyone else's here for that matter.  But the topic is Beatles As Innovators.  Precedents can surely be cited in this thread.

Yes, The Beatles were pioneers in music on many levels.  Having lived though the era, I can personally attest to that.  But this is an open forum to express thoughts on this particular subject.

Here, here sir. Everyone has got 'their' take on The Beatles. All depends on your journey of discovery and the other things you open your mind up to. It's all selective. :)
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 13, 2010, 06:08:50 PM
Relax Musicfan. Your opinion is much appreciated and the discussion is a tough one with strong points from both sides. Nothing wrong with that. It's all Beatlesfans here, but that doesn't mean everybody takes everything for granted, including Kevin.

 I think people like Kevin and I notice many other people sort of resent the Beatles. So the tact they will go after is if the Beatles were the not exact first to have a sitar on pop recording though the idea never went through for example well they did nothing with it. I am the other way around George Harrison actually played, and incorporated the instrument into their records unlike the Yardbirds Jeff Beck.

The Beatles music is both simple and sophisticated. There music always provided an easy point of entry that hooks us yet subtle and complex enough that set them apart from the mundane. The blend of simplicity and sophistication was key to their commercial and artistic success. They had their own sound and had an uncanny ability to absorb outside influences and integrate them seamlessly into their sound.

The Beatles were not the first to use overdubbing or multitracking it had been around for awhile. But starting with Rubber Soul and peaking in Sgt. Pepper. The Beatles use of it and style achieved tremendous results that they inspired legions of imitators. Songs like “Eleanor Rigby” and “A Day in the Life” expanded the range of rock music and people started to associate those songs to high art. Because of all this the Beatles had a huge influence on the sound of rock music. Rock records from 1962 to 1970 sounded a lot different, they were better produced and offered a lot broader palette of sounds

The main difference between the Beatles and Dylan is that Dylan did it mainly with words the Beatles did it music, studio and words. The Beatles there is a beautiful coordination between lyrics and significant musical features that you hear on “Eleanor Rigby” and “A Day in the Life”.

Bob Dylan influenced the Beatles lyrically to write more meaningful and less teen orientated music. But the Beatles were expanding their sound world in a more adventurous and in encompassing way. Bob Dylan drew on existing pop styles and used them in a more serious lyrical approach. The Beatles by contrast reached further away from musical traditions far removed from rock and roll traditions like classical Indian music or string quartets playing classical music. Moreover they synthesized these aspects seamlessly into their music that it became the fabric behind their music

The Beatles and Dylan was part of the explosion that created a new sound world that took over the marketplace. You had Motown, soul and the merging of various rock subgenres. There were other groups were working in the same path as the Beatles and Bob Dylan like Brian Wilson, the Who and Frank Zappa and the Mothers of Invention. But no one did more to make rock a form of a compelling expression as an art form more than the Beatles and Bob Dylan.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 14, 2010, 05:33:33 AM
I don’t remember the Beach Boys using a mellotron 


Right.  They used a Chamberlin, a precursor to the Mellotron...

(http://www.kleonard.com/mellotron/mellotronia/images/musicmaster01.jpg)
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 14, 2010, 05:39:30 AM
Honestly what do you mean when you say continuum?

Rock Music which is a popular form of music is really a synthesis of established past styles.



You seem to already know what continuum means.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 14, 2010, 06:20:52 AM
"And Your Bird Can Sing", where George and Paul (both on guitar) play in harmony with each other like a twin lead guitar attack. Think Thin Lizzy, having two guitarists, made great use of this, as did many other bands. Justin Hayward of the Moody Blues, for instance, would usually add (overdub) additional harmony lines to the recordings (The Land of Make Believe, You and Me and Isn't Life Strange are great examples. ). "

And Your Bird Can Sing was a favorite of mine the moment I first heard it on Yesterday....And Today in 1966.  I realized shortly afterward that it was a dual guitar harmony which explained my initial fascination with this song.

Several years later when I studied blues guitar, my teacher, Ian Buchanan who was studying jazz guitar at the time, explained some of the history of dual guitar harmony.  He would often play harmony to my solo riffs.  That really sounded great, but after a few bars, I would mess up my solo as I started to concentrate on what notes he was playing.  He would laugh and tell me that I would never be able to play in a band.  I would agree and remind him that I had other career objectives.  I did get better after a while and we would finish my lessons with about ten minutes of nice duo guitar work.

As I mentioned, my teacher was studying jazz guitar.  Sometimes he would play me some recordings he had of of jazz artists like George Barnes and Carl Cress playing dual jazz guitar harmonies.  Joe Pass and Herb Ellis also would break into harmony solos.

Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nimrod on December 14, 2010, 11:10:18 AM
Wishbone Ash were pretty good at dual guitar solo's as well.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 14, 2010, 04:17:09 PM
Yes they were!

So were these guys...

Allman Brothers - Jessica (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfM6nRVBvGs#)



Dickey Betts and his son Duane show us how it's done:

Dickie Betts & son Duane show how to play Jessica (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcT0nzN-MJ0#)

Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 14, 2010, 04:57:48 PM


You seem to already know what continuum means.

The thing it's hard to pinpoint innovation because there were literally thousands of bands at the same time. Then at the same time how did they get that distortion sound on "Happiness Is A Warm Gun"? I have read how the Beatles were getting their guitar sounds and it's pretty interesting.

Like on "Here There and Everywhere" the mandolin-toned guitar was obtained through the Leslie cabinet and, in the final bars, given a horn-like timbre by the use of volume swells

The "Revolution" guitar distortion famously done by taking Lennon's guitar D.I. and overloading a channel strip on the board.

"The Nowhere Man" ultra  guitar sound was achieved by running the mic input from all that Fender into more than one fade. George Martin and the Beatles linked multiple mixing consoles together from throughout Abbey Road (bringing them all in to studio 2), and turned the treble up on each for that solo track - giving it a multi-treble-tone stack of sorts, which enabled them to get tons of the good treble discreetly
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: An Apple Beatle on December 14, 2010, 05:06:03 PM
The thing it's hard to pinpoint innovation because there were literally thousands of bands at the same time. Then at the same time how did they get that distortion sound on "Happiness Is A Warm Gun"? I have read how the Beatles were getting their guitar sounds and it's pretty interesting.

Like on "Here There and Everywhere" the mandolin-toned guitar was obtained through the Leslie cabinet and, in the final bars, given a horn-like timbre by the use of volume swells

The "Revolution" guitar distortion famously done by taking Lennon's guitar D.I. and overloading a channel strip on the board.

"The Nowhere Man" ultra  guitar sound was achieved by running the mic input from all that Fender into more than one fade. George Martin and the Beatles linked multiple mixing consoles together from throughout Abbey Road (bringing them all in to studio 2), and turned the treble up on each for that solo track - giving it a multi-treble-tone stack of sorts, which enabled them to get tons of the good treble discreetly

Geoff Emerick? Have you read his 'Here,There & Everywhere' book. I think you'd enjoy it.  Working in the realm of comedy, George Martin was never going to be averse to 'unusual' recording techniques. Not all those thousand bands had the same lab-coat technicians helping them realize a stoned idea.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 14, 2010, 05:46:27 PM
Geoff Emerick? Have you read his 'Here,There & Everywhere' book. I think you'd enjoy it.  Working in the realm of comedy, George Martin was never going to be averse to 'unusual' recording techniques. Not all those thousand bands had the same lab-coat technicians helping them realize a stoned idea.

Oh I have read the book Geoff is a bit harsh on George Harrison but many will say this is the book to get "Recording The Beatles". The only thing is you can't get the book here in America.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 14, 2010, 05:47:18 PM
I read this the other day and I wonder what you guys make of this.

Words and chords. The semantic shifts of the Beatles' chords
by Ger Tillekens

"It is not the chords themselves, but the chord sequences that are at the core of the sound of the Beatles. Their unorthodoxy on this point made it so difficult for other groups — especially for those with a blues background — to cover their songs. It still is responsible for the ongoing debate on which chord is which in a specific Beatles' song. Nowadays, to our trained ears the songs may sound less raucously than they did before. In the early days, though, these unusual chord combinations undoubtedly did attribute to the intensity and harshness of the typical Beatles' sound".
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nyfan(41) on December 14, 2010, 06:02:51 PM
I read this the other day and I wonder what you guys make of this.

Words and chords. The semantic shifts of the Beatles' chords
by Ger Tillekens
"It is not the chords themselves, but the chord sequences that are at the core of the sound of the Beatles. Their unorthodoxy on this point made it so difficult for other groups — especially for those with a blues background — to cover their songs. It still is responsible for the ongoing debate on which chord is which in a specific Beatles' song. Nowadays, to our trained ears the songs may sound less raucously than they did before. In the early days, though, these unusual chord combinations undoubtedly did attribute to the intensity and harshness of the typical Beatles' sound".
-
-
personally i always attributed this to paul's father who exposed him to music with complex chord changes such as was normal pre-rock and roll. (what some people refer to as 'standards')
when you hear some other groups of the time doing the typical 1 4 5 blues progressions you realize that there was a big (excuse me) minstral show going on in england
the beatles mixed that blues + motown with the chord changes of old timey music... a little folk ala lonnie donnegan... some bassa nova,,,, show tunes . . etc
-
the best example to me is the live at the bbc albums.
songs from their repatoire like "dont ever change" have that complex chord structure beyond the blues copy cats
-
. . . paul's dad (and a love of all music) would be my nearest guess
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nimrod on December 15, 2010, 12:14:18 AM
Quote
The Beatles and Dylan was part of the explosion that created a new sound world that took over the marketplace. You had Motown, soul and the merging of various rock subgenres. There were other groups were working in the same path as the Beatles and Bob Dylan like Brian Wilson, the Who and Frank Zappa and the Mothers of Invention. But no one did more to make rock a form of a compelling expression as an art form more than the Beatles and Bob Dylan.

well said musicfan, I 100% agree with you.

Im sad because I just heard that Stuart (Woolly) Woolstenholme (mellotron/keybord player) of Barclay James Harvest, after the Beatles my favourite all time band, commited suicide yesterday.

RIP Stuart
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Brynjar on December 15, 2010, 08:07:12 AM
I like this thread.  ;D
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 15, 2010, 05:14:36 PM
One of the things I noticed about the Beatles is this and maybe the Beach Boys were going after this also

The Beatles were grounded in rock and roll, but what marks them as pop music to many (among other things) their unusual eclecticism. Is "Honey Pie a rock song? Or "Eleanor Rigby" Or 'For No One?' Or 'Yesterday?. It was their prolific melodicism, which virtue is generally not at the forefront of either rock and roll or rock, or Bob Dylan's music for that matter. So pop music is  willingness to go away from the guitar-based sound and replaced it with musical variety.

That does not mean they were not doing the heavy sound also. Rock music today is built for heightened amplification or a thundering wall of sound and often features slower rates of harmonic change. I think "Ticket To Ride" with its slow droning, repetitious melody on guitar & bass and syncopated drum style was one starts to see the change with the Beatles going in the direction of psychedelic and hard rock.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nyfan(41) on December 15, 2010, 06:30:40 PM
. . . Is "Honey Pie a rock song?  . . . . . . . musical variety.

-
i could be wrong and maybe someone older can tell me . .
-
but i think there was this tongue in cheek throwback nostalgia trend in the mid 60s where young people made tinpan alley/old timey vaudville type music cool again
-
to my belief there is a 20 year throwback=cool factor
i.e.
in the 70's - 50's nostalgia became cool (american grafitti, happy days, sha na na, grease)
in the 80's - there was a 60's rock sound revival (rasberry beret by prince for example, the monkees comeback)
in the 90's - a 70's fad with release of films like dazed and confused, that 70s show . .
-
today alot of new groups (rap and otherwise) are remaking 80's new wave classics and kids are wearing members only jackets with irony
----------------
anyway..
davy jones showed that nostalgic music style in a few numbers where he had the straw hat and cane...
another example of that old music=cool trend was lady godiva by peter and gordon which preceeds honey pie
1966
Lady Godiva - Peter & Gordon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJWBpq2dCF0#)
-
maybe someone who was alive back then can confirm or refute this theory- or shed light on it  ;D
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Mairi on December 15, 2010, 07:38:16 PM
Somewhat unrelated, but who's the sexy lady on the cover? She sorta looks like Pattie.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: An Apple Beatle on December 15, 2010, 08:22:24 PM
Oh I have read the book Geoff is a bit harsh on George Harrison but many will say this is the book to get "Recording The Beatles". The only thing is you can't get the book here in America.

That's a shame, I got both Emerick's book and George Martin's All You Need Is Ears through Amazon. You did read right. There are one or two places where there is a bit of judgementalness but it's still a good book that does inspire a curious musician mind who is interested in the techniques, attitudes and approaches to Beatle recordings. I enjoyed reading both books together, back to back. I just think the innovation is equally down to George Martin and the engineers involved when it comes to the sound of their albums. Yes they may have been the largely the ideas of John & Paul but they could have just drifted into nowhere land without the dedication of the engineers and producers, which in turn inspired more magic out of their accomplished songwriting.
What a great combination of people.

Have you tried ebay?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HERE-THERE-AND-EVERYWHERE-GEOFF-EMERICK-PAPERBACK-/360322712352?pt=US_Nonfiction_Book&hash=item53e4e84320 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HERE-THERE-AND-EVERYWHERE-GEOFF-EMERICK-PAPERBACK-/360322712352?pt=US_Nonfiction_Book&hash=item53e4e84320)
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 15, 2010, 09:27:31 PM
That's a shame, I got both Emerick's book and George Martin's All You Need Is Ears through Amazon. You did read right. There are one or two places where there is a bit of judgementalness but it's still a good book that does inspire a curious musician mind who is interested in the techniques, attitudes and approaches to Beatle recordings. I enjoyed reading both books together, back to back. I just think the innovation is equally down to George Martin and the engineers involved when it comes to the sound of their albums. Yes they may have been the largely the ideas of John & Paul but they could have just drifted into nowhere land without the dedication of the engineers and producers, which in turn inspired more magic out of their accomplished songwriting.
What a great combination of people.

Have you tried ebay?

[url]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HERE-THERE-AND-EVERYWHERE-GEOFF-EMERICK-PAPERBACK-/360322712352?pt=US_Nonfiction_Book&hash=item53e4e84320[/url] ([url]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HERE-THERE-AND-EVERYWHERE-GEOFF-EMERICK-PAPERBACK-/360322712352?pt=US_Nonfiction_Book&hash=item53e4e84320[/url])



I love George Harrison but according to Norman Smith it was Paul McCartney who had the ideas.

Norman Smith (who was The Beatles recording engineer from Please Please Me through Rubber Soul)

"I don’t want to take anything away from anyone, but production of the Beatles was very simple, because it was ready-made. Paul was a very great influence in terms of the production, especially in terms of George Harrison’s guitar solos and Ringo’s drumming. The truth of the matter is that, to the best of my memory, Paul had a great hand in practically all of the songs that we did, and Ringo would generally ask him what he should do. After all, Paul was no mean drummer himself, and he did play drums on a couple of things. It was almost like we had one producer in the control room and another producer down in the studio. There is no doubt at all that Paul was the main musical force. He was also that in terms of production as well. A lot of the time George Martin didn’t really have to do the things he did because Paul McCartney was around and could have done them equally well… most of the ideas came from Paul".
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nyfan(41) on December 15, 2010, 09:33:34 PM
i have no clue mairi. lol  ha2ha i hope it's not patty!
;
hmm, the more im listening to lady goodiva the more i think paul may have been influenced by it in writing honey pie
it was a decent sized hit and the beatles definitely knew of peter and gordon. (the album with lady godiva has an 'if i fell' cover and paul wrote 'world without love' for them)
-
anyway,,,,
besides the old timey music hall feel (that paul grew up with).. with the oompah bassline.... and that style of chord proogression ->
both songs have a subject matter of a woman going to the hollywood silver screen

GODIVA:
She found fame and made her name
A hollywood director came into town
And said to her
"How'd you like to be a star?"


PIE:
. . . Come and show me the magic
of your Hollywood song.
You became a legend of the silver screen

.
.
they also both mention the wind (breeze) and knees - lol
-
(people also said i was nuts when i pointed out that helter skelter says "miles" above you and it was inspired by i can see for miles)
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: An Apple Beatle on December 15, 2010, 09:46:44 PM

I love George Harrison but according to Norman Smith it was Paul McCartney who had the ideas.

Norman Smith (who was The Beatles recording engineer from Please Please Me through Rubber Soul)

"I don’t want to take anything away from anyone, but production of the Beatles was very simple, because it was ready-made. Paul was a very great influence in terms of the production, especially in terms of George Harrison’s guitar solos and Ringo’s drumming. The truth of the matter is that, to the best of my memory, Paul had a great hand in practically all of the songs that we did, and Ringo would generally ask him what he should do. After all, Paul was no mean drummer himself, and he did play drums on a couple of things. It was almost like we had one producer in the control room and another producer down in the studio. There is no doubt at all that Paul was the main musical force. He was also that in terms of production as well. A lot of the time George Martin didn’t really have to do the things he did because Paul McCartney was around and could have done them equally well… most of the ideas came from Paul".

That's a bit Paul heavy there but I guess he was a good anchor and interpreter of the lads from the floor to the control booth when communicating with GM. It's also written that PM spent longer hours in the studio particularly in the latter Rubber SOul onwards perfecting his parts and the bands arrangements when John's attitude grew more youcould soay organic and flippant. They really had accomplished a magnificent amount of material in a short time and everyone seemed to be keeping up to pace with each other until around Mr. Epsteins departure from the world.
I just think they were all a great influence on each other which created the magic and mythologized innovations and genuine first-time breakthroughs. They were the perfect ambassadors of innovation and fresh culture. It's the story we all want aswell. I'm harpin on now., it's been a while. :D Good to have people posting again. :)
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 15, 2010, 11:28:56 PM
That's a bit Paul heavy there but I guess he was a good anchor and interpreter of the lads from the floor to the control booth when communicating with GM. It's also written that PM spent longer hours in the studio particularly in the latter Rubber SOul onwards perfecting his parts and the bands arrangements when John's attitude grew more youcould soay organic and flippant. They really had accomplished a magnificent amount of material in a short time and everyone seemed to be keeping up to pace with each other until around Mr. Epsteins departure from the world.
I just think they were all a great influence on each other which created the magic and mythologized innovations and genuine first-time breakthroughs. They were the perfect ambassadors of innovation and fresh culture. It's the story we all want aswell. I'm harpin on now., it's been a while. :D Good to have people posting again. :)

 I think "Ticket To Ride" with its slow droning, repetitious melody on guitar & bass and syncopated drum style was one starts to see the change with the Beatles going in the direction of psychedelic and hard rock. When I listen to later tracks like George Harrison “Only a Northern Songs” and ”Blue Jay Way” are songs that are purely psychedelic without any guitars. Or “We Can Work It Out” with the harmonium pedal effects and the switch of time signatures on the bridge. What kind of drum and bass rhythms are being played on “Rain” and “Tomorrow Never Knows” It’s like they developed their own musical language to be honest
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nyfan(41) on December 16, 2010, 12:06:14 AM
I think "Ticket To Ride" with its slow droning, repetitious melody on guitar & bass and syncopated drum style was one starts to see the change with the Beatles going in the direction of psychedelic and hard rock. When I listen to later tracks like George Harrison “Only a Northern Songs” and ”Blue Jay Way” are songs that are purely psychedelic without any guitars. Or “We Can Work It Out” with the harmonium pedal effects and the switch of time signatures on the bridge. What kind of drum and bass rhythms are being played on “Rain” and “Tomorrow Never Knows” It’s like they developed their own musical language to be honest

john lennon had called ticket to ride the first heavy metal song
it's one of my favorites
-
but to me - as original as it was -  it's also one of their most derivitive songs
the  "bam bam bam BAM bam bam bam BAM" drums are right out of phil spectors wall of sound (be my baby or leader of the pack)
-
in fact 'leader of the pack' sounds like 'ticket to ride' on many levels
same beat
same slow drive
..
and same chord changes in the verse !

( I chord for 3 bars, VII chord for half a bar, V chord for half a bar)

if you listen from "my folks were always putting him down" and " i think im gonna be sad.." - it's the same chord progression
..
also the endings do the same thing "leader of the pack now he's gone" vs "my baby don't care' coming back and repeating upbeat on the I chord

"Leader of The Pack"- The Shangri-Las (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhKpxJea64A#)
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nimrod on December 16, 2010, 12:14:02 AM

I love George Harrison but according to Norman Smith it was Paul McCartney who had the ideas.

Norman Smith (who was The Beatles recording engineer from Please Please Me through Rubber Soul)

"I don’t want to take anything away from anyone, but production of the Beatles was very simple, because it was ready-made. Paul was a very great influence in terms of the production, especially in terms of George Harrison’s guitar solos and Ringo’s drumming. The truth of the matter is that, to the best of my memory, Paul had a great hand in practically all of the songs that we did, and Ringo would generally ask him what he should do. After all, Paul was no mean drummer himself, and he did play drums on a couple of things. It was almost like we had one producer in the control room and another producer down in the studio. There is no doubt at all that Paul was the main musical force. He was also that in terms of production as well. A lot of the time George Martin didn’t really have to do the things he did because Paul McCartney was around and could have done them equally well… most of the ideas came from Paul".


Ive always suspected that Paul kind of 'told' George and Ringo what to do, didnt he also end up telling John as well? maybe this is what caused a lot of friction (George reacted on Let It Be with his 'I'll play whatever it is you want me to play')
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 16, 2010, 01:36:55 AM
john lennon had called ticket to ride the first heavy metal song
it's one of my favorites
-
but to me - as original as it was -  it's also one of their most derivitive songs
the  "bam bam bam BAM bam bam bam BAM" drums are right out of phil spectors wall of sound (be my baby or leader of the pack)
-
in fact 'leader of the pack' sounds like 'ticket to ride' on many levels
same beat
same slow drive
..
and same chord changes in the verse !

( I chord for 3 bars, VII chord for half a bar, V chord for half a bar)

if you listen from "my folks were always putting him down" and " i think im gonna be sad.." - it's the same chord progression
..
also the endings do the same thing "leader of the pack now he's gone" vs "my baby don't care' coming back and repeating upbeat on the I chord

"Leader of The Pack"- The Shangri-Las ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhKpxJea64A#[/url])



I actually don’t see it the drum pattern is kind of generic and you hear that kind of syncopated drum pattern in “What You’re Doing” from the year before.  Ringo drumming goes from triplets against the beat in the first couple of verses to straight eights towards the end is nothing at all like the track you are talking about. If anything “Ticket To Ride” shares more with “Rain” with it’s slow droning, dense sound and haphazard drumming sound. The end on the fade-out changes rhythm and melody.


I definitely hear it's influence on the Beach Boys though.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 16, 2010, 01:39:50 AM
Ive always suspected that Paul kind of 'told' George and Ringo what to do, didnt he also end up telling John as well? maybe this is what caused a lot of friction (George reacted on Let It Be with his 'I'll play whatever it is you want me to play')

I don't think Paul told George what to play on his own tracks. I think George was frustrated with Paul on a number of issues though by the time they broke up.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nyfan(41) on December 16, 2010, 01:58:13 AM

I actually don’t see it the drum pattern is kind of generic and you hear that kind of syncopated drum pattern in “What You’re Doing” from the year before.  Ringo drumming goes from triplets against the beat in the first couple of verses to straight eights towards the end is nothing at all like the track you are talking about. If anything “Ticket To Ride” shares more with “Rain” with it’s slow droning, dense sound and haphazard drumming sound. The end on the fade-out changes rhythm and melody.


well as usual musicfan- i respect your opinion but youre completely out of your mind. lol
first off the drums have nothing to do with ringo - paul wrote the drum track and told him what to play
-
secondly, forget 'what youre doing' - that beat is a phil spector trademark beat that goes back to 63
its the girlgroup wall of sound beat
bum . .  bum bum BUM  bum . . bum bum BUM
here's the ronnettes - who met with, toured with and influenced the beatles
Be my baby - The Ronettes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhbGaCwBzs#)
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nimrod on December 16, 2010, 02:26:51 AM
I don't think Paul told George what to play on his own tracks. I think George was frustrated with Paul on a number of issues though by the time they broke up.

Its what splits groups up though isnt it, when one member starts telling the others how to play

Roger Waters did it on The Wall & The Final Cut, Keith Richards did it with Bill Wyman and Brian Jones, surely paul ended up playing lead because George wouldnt do what Paul asked him to do ie play guitar by numbers, Is imagine George got really fed up with it
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 16, 2010, 02:35:15 AM
well as usual musicfan- i respect your opinion but youre completely out of your mind. lol
first off the drums have nothing to do with ringo - paul wrote the drum track and told him what to play
-
secondly, forget 'what youre doing' - that beat is a phil spector trademark beat that goes back to 63
its the girlgroup wall of sound beat
bum . .  bum bum BUM  bum . . bum bum BUM
here's the ronnettes - who met with, toured with and influenced the beatles
Be my baby - The Ronettes ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhbGaCwBzs#[/url])



Well, I disagree with you and I know Paul was the one who suggested the drum pattern. Paul was looking for a heavy drum sound but the drum pattern, the broken drum pattern maybe slightly but the drum fills are nothing at all like Phil Spector Wall of Sound.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 16, 2010, 03:12:36 AM
I don't know...they sound the pretty much the same to me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhbGaCwBzs# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhbGaCwBzs#)

What You're Doing-Beatles for Sale (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJtUdoWHgK8#)

Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 16, 2010, 03:13:30 AM
This guy liked that drum pattern too...

Billy Joel 1976 Say Goodbye To Hollywood (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeFwZtKC6Wg#)
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 16, 2010, 03:16:45 AM
I like this thread.  ;D

Me too.  It's groovy!  ;)
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 16, 2010, 03:50:05 AM
-
i could be wrong and maybe someone older can tell me . .
-
but i think there was this tongue in cheek throwback nostalgia trend in the mid 60s where young people made tinpan alley/old timey vaudville type music cool again
-
to my belief there is a 20 year throwback=cool factor
i.e.
in the 70's - 50's nostalgia became cool (american grafitti, happy days, sha na na, grease)
in the 80's - there was a 60's rock sound revival (rasberry beret by prince for example, the monkees comeback)
in the 90's - a 70's fad with release of films like dazed and confused, that 70s show . .
-
today alot of new groups (rap and otherwise) are remaking 80's new wave classics and kids are wearing members only jackets with irony
----------------
anyway..
davy jones showed that nostalgic music style in a few numbers where he had the straw hat and cane...
another example of that old music=cool trend was lady godiva by peter and gordon which preceeds honey pie
1966
Lady Godiva - Peter & Gordon ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJWBpq2dCF0#[/url])
-
maybe someone who was alive back then can confirm or refute this theory- or shed light on it  ;D


Yeah, nyfan, that happened in the 60s alright...

(http://i56.tinypic.com/mv3qle.jpg)

The Monkees Manhattan Style "Look Out (Here Comes Tomorrow)" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZCMkEY-Fbc#noexternalembed)



Winchester Cathedral The New Vaudeville Band (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkIJQxzuc8A#)

Rudy Vallee - "You're Just Another Memory" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiqclXgAFBQ#)
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 16, 2010, 04:21:31 AM
to my belief there is a 20 year throwback=cool factor


Sometimes it's 30 years nyfan...

Bette Midler boogie woogie bugle boy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4YzWYf0PtM#)

Andrews Sisters' "Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy Of Company B" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pfCFU3Mqww#)


;)
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nyfan(41) on December 16, 2010, 04:23:40 AM
^^ cool !  ;yes
-
-
hey.... anyone ever notice that kevin always starts awesome threads ?  ha2ha
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Bobber on December 16, 2010, 08:07:07 AM
Its what splits groups up though isnt it, when one member starts telling the others how to play

Roger Waters did it on The Wall & The Final Cut, Keith Richards did it with Bill Wyman and Brian Jones, surely paul ended up playing lead because George wouldnt do what Paul asked him to do ie play guitar by numbers, Is imagine George got really fed up with it

That's a bit short sighted to say. There were a lot of things that made The Beatles break up. Paul played an occasional lead guitar every now and then. Another Girl, Taxman, Good Morning (I think).
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Bobber on December 16, 2010, 08:11:46 AM
Sometimes it's 30 years nyfan...


I'm not sure whether you can say it's a rule. It happens every now and then. I'm pretty sure there's always bands and artists looking back. The Jam in the late '70's were looking back only 15 years or so.
Although, there some kind of pattern. This is from the mid 70's

5| Robin Sarstedt - My Resistance Is Low (TOTP 6-05-1976) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=td7nC0npAwg#)
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nimrod on December 16, 2010, 01:12:36 PM
That's a bit short sighted to say. There were a lot of things that made The Beatles break up. Paul played an occasional lead guitar every now and then. Another Girl, Taxman, Good Morning (I think).

I am short sighted  ;)

Ive heard John say that Paul 'took over' the band many times and there was resentment from George, I think Paul saw himself as the musical director of the band later on, in fact I think John described Let It Be as the Paul movie, or something like that.
Having played in many bands over the years I often experienced certain people try to take over and be the boss, it usually leads to confrontation and eventual break up. Im not saying that that was THE reason they broke up buy its one of them Im sure
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 16, 2010, 04:43:41 PM
I don't know...they sound the pretty much the same to me

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhbGaCwBzs#[/url] ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhbGaCwBzs#[/url])

What You're Doing-Beatles for Sale ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJtUdoWHgK8#[/url])




You know what you can pick out similiar things in every song but even the drum patterns you are talking about are not really the same. As for "Ticket To Ride" the beat of that song is more in line with "Tomorrow Never Knows" except there is actually drum rolls whereas "Tomorrow Never Knows' is basically a human drum loop.  


"Ticket To Ride" Ringo doesn't play the song the same all the way. The choruses are all played differetnly. Also by the end the tambourine goes into a double time beat against the snare playing a straight rock beat. The beat is actually closer to a polyrhythm.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 16, 2010, 04:57:06 PM
-
i could be wrong and maybe someone older can tell me . .
-
but i think there was this tongue in cheek throwback nostalgia trend in the mid 60s where young people made tinpan alley/old timey vaudville type music cool again
-
to my belief there is a 20 year throwback=cool factor
i.e.
in the 70's - 50's nostalgia became cool (american grafitti, happy days, sha na na, grease)
in the 80's - there was a 60's rock sound revival (rasberry beret by prince for example, the monkees comeback)
in the 90's - a 70's fad with release of films like dazed and confused, that 70s show . .
-
today alot of new groups (rap and otherwise) are remaking 80's new wave classics and kids are wearing members only jackets with irony
----------------
anyway..
davy jones showed that nostalgic music style in a few numbers where he had the straw hat and cane...
another example of that old music=cool trend was lady godiva by peter and gordon which preceeds honey pie
1966
Lady Godiva - Peter & Gordon ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJWBpq2dCF0#[/url])
-
maybe someone who was alive back then can confirm or refute this theory- or shed light on it  ;D


Well, "Honey Pie" goes back further than 20 years and those scratches on the record make it sound authentic really. The song goes to the 1920s jazz style, it featured five saxophones and two clarinets. You have other songs that go back it time like "Till There Is You", "Michelle", "When I'm 64" and "Goodnight" but to be honest I am not of fan of this side of the Beatles music. As it is McCartney’s taste for Tin Pan Alley pop. His acoustic-based
cover of “Till There Was You,” from Broadway play The Music Man, and "A Taste of Honey" date back in 1963.


Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nyfan(41) on December 16, 2010, 06:03:20 PM
Well, "Honey Pie" goes back further than 20 years and those scratches on the record make it sound authentic really. The song goes to the 1920s jazz style, it featured five saxophones and two clarinets. You have other songs that go back it time like "Till There Is You", "Michelle", "When I'm 64" and "Goodnight" but to be honest I am not of fan of this side of the Beatles music. As it is McCartney’s taste for Tin Pan Alley pop. His acoustic-based
cover of “Till There Was You,” from Broadway play The Music Man, and "A Taste of Honey" date back in 1963.

and cant forget the worst/(best?) offender-> maxwells silver hammer
i can take that style of beatles song in appropriate doses - if there are 'rock' songs to break it up -
-
but taking it back to nimrod's comments, paul's occasional tendency towards "corny" songs may have been a factor in the beatles demise
george or whoever may not have minded being musically directed what to play if the project wasn't a song they considered 'fruity' (<-george's word for maxwell slvr hammr)
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Musicfan67 on December 16, 2010, 06:21:29 PM
and cant forget the worst/(best?) offender-> maxwells silver hammer
i can take that style of beatles song in appropriate doses - if there are 'rock' songs to break it up -
-
but taking it back to nimrod's comments, paul's occasional tendency towards "corny" songs may have been a factor in the beatles demise
george or whoever may not have minded being musically directed what to play if the project wasn't a song they considered 'fruity' (<-george's word for maxwell slvr hammr)

As you can tell I love the Beatles but this side of their music I can do without except for "Till There Was You" because of George guitar playing is why I like that track. "Maxwell Silver Hammer" and "Obli Obla Da" drove Lennon and Harrison crazy and I can hear why.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nyfan(41) on December 16, 2010, 08:05:07 PM
speaking of beatles innovations... just thought of another one
-
even though it failed - wasn't the whole apple corp. thing an innovation?
-
-
that's really common now. especially in rap- where the artist starts their own label that also has other artists, a clothing line, other nonmusic products etc etc
-

(such as how the beatles started their own label for their music - [with a parent company] - that also had other artists, an electronics division, film division etc)
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 17, 2010, 12:38:22 AM
^

I think they were the first to do that, nyfan.

But they weren't the first to put on tuxedos and use a staircase in a music video...


(http://oi54.tinypic.com/1hyru0.jpg)

Look Out (Here Comes Tomorrow)   1966


(http://oi51.tinypic.com/29ofuwn.jpg)

Your Mother Should Know   1967


OK, The Monkees were going up and The Beatles were going down.  ;)




Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nyfan(41) on December 17, 2010, 01:29:54 AM
i thought both scenes were an homage to ...  umm...... was it......busby berkeley(?)
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on December 31, 2010, 05:08:44 AM
i thought both scenes were an homage to ...  umm...... was it......busby berkeley(?)


Oh yeah!

Gold Diggers of 1935 (Part Two) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gGVryQDvv4#)
Lullaby Of Broadway


It looks like Busby Berkeley invented both The Monkees and The Beatles!

 ;D
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Bobber on May 29, 2013, 02:19:33 PM
They invented planking.

(http://beatlephotoblog.com/photos/2013/05/15.jpg)
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: blmeanie on May 29, 2013, 04:58:28 PM
Reviving a thread after 2 1/2 years must be a record.

I just read all 8 pages and what a great thread.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on May 29, 2013, 06:13:17 PM
...what a great thread.

Yeah.  It's groovy!    ;)
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Bobber on May 29, 2013, 08:46:25 PM
Reviving a thread after 2 1/2 years must be a record.


I don't know. I think I know almost all essential threads from the last seven years. Honest.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: nimrod on May 29, 2013, 11:12:34 PM
Yeah.  It's groovy!    ;)




(https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/2978479888/cb4f80279a083f7a76c82ad98358fb45.jpeg)
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on May 30, 2013, 04:37:57 AM
^

Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on May 30, 2013, 05:12:44 AM
I don't know. I think I know almost all essential threads from the last seven years. Honest.

It was Paul.

Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Bobber on May 30, 2013, 08:41:27 AM
It was Paul.



You know because I told you.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on May 31, 2013, 02:38:36 AM
You know because I told you.

I think you were like four at the time!
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Bobber on May 31, 2013, 07:18:40 AM
I think you were like four at the time!

Two. Almost. I knew that by heart.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on June 02, 2013, 12:05:22 AM
Two. Almost. I knew that by heart.

You were a smart kid.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Bobber on September 12, 2017, 10:38:24 AM
Even P.S. I Love You contained an innovation!

http://www.culturesonar.com/beatles-ps-i-love-you/ (http://www.culturesonar.com/beatles-ps-i-love-you/)
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on September 12, 2017, 05:13:14 PM
^

He's very enthusiastic about the song but The Beatles were hardly innovative using that cadence.  The Beatles used the Aeolian dominant scale (or "Hindu scale) as demonstrated here...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsiNpZobqU8# (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsiNpZobqU8#)
3:13 - 3:34



Autumn Leaves is a jazz standard that using this cadence...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tDQMqlHZt8# (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tDQMqlHZt8#)
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on September 12, 2017, 05:36:38 PM
Just how good, musically, were they?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jdujUF0was# (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jdujUF0was#)



 ;D
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Moogmodule on September 13, 2017, 05:55:52 AM
^

He's very enthusiastic about the song but The Beatles were hardly innovative using that cadence.  The Beatles used the Aeolian dominant scale (or "Hindu scale) as demonstrated here...



Autumn Leaves is a jazz standard that using this cadence...




I think that's the most interesting thing as a "maturing" Beatle fan. When you're younger you think their status is all about them being first at something. As if they were producing musical tropes never before heard of, pulled out of some divine ether. When you read more about them and their music you realise that's not the main point. What they were great at was using so many existing musical moves not normally associated with a rock and roll band, certainly not one writing their own material.  And doing it in such a seamless way that it didn't seem forced or draw attention to itself.

So many people put the Beatles musical appeal down to its simplicity. It's more that they actually used a lot of interesting and sophisticated musical ideas while making it sound simple and accessible. Hence why musicologists still analyse them today as opposed to ruminating over Cliff Richard songs of the era.

Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Bobber on September 13, 2017, 07:27:55 AM
And very necessary to fill up all those long hours in Hamburg and Liverpool. They simply had to pick songs from everywhere and make it their own.
Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Moogmodule on September 14, 2017, 01:35:54 AM
And very necessary to fill up all those long hours in Hamburg and Liverpool. They simply had to pick songs from everywhere and make it their own.

Yes. Although that was common to all bands who went to Hamburg. Seems one of the Beatles' differences is that they soaked that all up for writing purposes more so than The Remo Four or Kingsize Taylor.

Title: Re: Beatles as innovators
Post by: Hello Goodbye on September 14, 2017, 04:59:15 AM
I think that's the most interesting thing as a "maturing" Beatle fan. When you're younger you think their status is all about them being first at something. As if they were producing musical tropes never before heard of, pulled out of some divine ether. When you read more about them and their music you realise that's not the main point. What they were great at was using so many existing musical moves not normally associated with a rock and roll band, certainly not one writing their own material.  And doing it in such a seamless way that it didn't seem forced or draw attention to itself.

So many people put the Beatles musical appeal down to its simplicity. It's more that they actually used a lot of interesting and sophisticated musical ideas while making it sound simple and accessible. Hence why musicologists still analyse them today as opposed to ruminating over Cliff Richard songs of the era.



Well put, Moog.