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Beatles forums => The Beatles => Topic started by: Hombre_de_ningun_lugar on April 07, 2011, 03:53:45 AM

Title: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hombre_de_ningun_lugar on April 07, 2011, 03:53:45 AM
We all know the Beatles are famous for probably being the most innovative band of the 60's, being the first in many things. On the other side, which things do you think the Beatles were beaten by other artists, converting them in imitators rather than being imitated?

I think the Beatles were beaten in psychedelia by the Byrds and the Yardbirds with their respective songs "Eight Miles High" and "Shapes Of Things", both released in March 1966.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: peterbell1 on April 07, 2011, 08:15:26 AM
We all know the Beatles are famous for probably being the most innovative band of the 60's, being the first in many things. On the other side, which things do you think the Beatles were beaten by other artists, converting them in imitators rather than being imitated?

I think the Beatles were beaten in psychedelia by the Byrds and the Yardbirds with their respective songs "Eight Miles High" and "Shapes Of Things", both released in March 1966.

The Beatles weren't a great live band by the time they stopped touring, so many bands could claim to be better than them. My favourite live band of the late '60s is The Who.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Joost on April 07, 2011, 09:25:23 AM
On the other side, which things do you think the Beatles were beaten by other artists, converting them in imitators rather than being imitated?

The Beach Boys were definately ahead of The Beatles when it came to vocal harmonies, and innovative chord progressions.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Jai Guru Deva. on April 07, 2011, 10:58:44 AM
I get practically attacked all the time at university with "why did the Beatles think they were so much better than everyone else?"  "Why did The Beatles always HAVE to be the first and the best at everything?"  "Why couldn't they just stop trying so hard?"  It drives me INSANE!   :o
They didn't HAVE to be the best and the first to do everything, in fact most things were just coincidence or happy accident.  For example, when they were the first British pop act to use a sitar on a record, that was pretty much pure fluke.  I've studied it, and multiple bands were experimenting with sitars before them, including The Kinks.  They just didn't know how to record the sitar because it was a foreign concept, so they couldn't get a good enough sound to put on the record, so it got left out.  The Beatles were just lucky that they had a good team behind them to record it.
In fact, I agree quite a lot with your Beach Boys point, Joost.  The Beatles had some wonderful vocal harmonies, but The Beach Boys' were much more complex and they were consistent with it, too.  Not knocking our boys though, of course!  :)

xxx
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: 7 of 13 on April 07, 2011, 04:37:43 PM
We all know the Beatles are famous for probably being the most innovative band of the 60's, being the first in many things. On the other side, which things do you think the Beatles were beaten by other artists, converting them in imitators rather than being imitated?

I think the Beatles were beaten in psychedelia by the Byrds and the Yardbirds with their respective songs "Eight Miles High" and "Shapes Of Things", both released in March 1966.
it's my opinion that you are totally in thee dark on this one Hombre.. everybody was copying the beatles, exception here is the yardbirds and they were an hardcore blues band, with frequent member rotations and changes. as for eight miles high it sounds like they are copying the who there, if anything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m4r17DFQLM
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hombre_de_ningun_lugar on April 07, 2011, 05:51:08 PM
it's my opinion that you are totally in thee dark on this one Hombre.. everybody was copying the beatles, exception here is the yardbirds and they were an hardcore blues band, with frequent member rotations and changes. as for eight miles high it sounds like they are copying the who there, if anything.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m4r17DFQLM[/url]


Well, I think that both "Shapes Of Things" and "Eight Miles High" are the founders of psychedelia. Of course the Byrds and even the Yardbirds were heavily influenced by the Beatles, but they influenced the Beatles as well. Without Mr. Tambourine Man we wouldn't have had Rubber Soul, four instance. And "Rain", the first pyschedelic Beatles song released, sounds pretty much like "Shapes Of Things"; I think it's no coincidence that "Shapes" was released in March 1966 and "Rain" was recorded in April that same year.

About "Eight Miles High" being a copy of the Who, I can't see how. The big point of that song is the random guitar playing, inspired by Coltrane; the keyboard solo in the Zombies' "She's Not There" (from 1964) may have been an inspiration too.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: tkitna on April 07, 2011, 11:39:06 PM
Honestly, the Beatles probably werent first at anything. They just had the luxury of being extremely popular and people noticed their stuff before others got credit. Thats how I feel anyways.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Gary910 on April 07, 2011, 11:51:38 PM
Honestly, the Beatles probably werent first at anything.

I couldn't disagree more. They were first at a few things. True, on some things they were the first to be recognized.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hello Goodbye on April 08, 2011, 01:53:01 AM
I couldn't disagree more. They were first at a few things.



(http://beatleshelp.50megs.com/photos/disguise1.jpg)

They just put it around that they were the first at a few things.


 ;D
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: 7 of 13 on April 08, 2011, 06:54:18 PM
Well, I think that both "Shapes Of Things" and "Eight Miles High" are the founders of psychedelia. Of course the Byrds and even the Yardbirds were heavily influenced by the Beatles, but they influenced the Beatles as well. Without Mr. Tambourine Man we wouldn't have had Rubber Soul, four instance. And "Rain", the first pyschedelic Beatles song released, sounds pretty much like "Shapes Of Things"; I think it's no coincidence that "Shapes" was released in March 1966 and "Rain" was recorded in April that same year.

About "Eight Miles High" being a copy of the Who, I can't see how. The big point of that song is the random guitar playing, inspired by Coltrane; the keyboard solo in the Zombies' "She's Not There" (from 1964) may have been an inspiration too.
sorry Hombre, but i tend to disagree. eight miles high was written after eight days a week, the byrds went out of their way and copied the beatles just like everyone else did in those days. i'm not saying that that is a bad thing.. as for the origins of psychedelia, beyond that that term is poorly defined... i would look to the folk rock and acid rock bands out of san franscisco during that time frame, think about the free speech movement and flower power.

 ;yes
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hello Goodbye on April 08, 2011, 08:57:00 PM
I think the Beatles were beaten in psychedelia by the Byrds and the Yardbirds with their respective songs "Eight Miles High" and "Shapes Of Things", both released in March 1966.

Donovan recorded Sunshine Superman in December, 1965.

Here's a recording chronology of the early days of psychedelic culture:  http://lysergia_2.tripod.com/LamaWorkshop/lamaEarlyPsychedelia.htm (http://lysergia_2.tripod.com/LamaWorkshop/lamaEarlyPsychedelia.htm)
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hombre_de_ningun_lugar on April 08, 2011, 10:09:47 PM
sorry Hombre, but i tend to disagree. eight miles high was written after eight days a week, the byrds went out of their way and copied the beatles just like everyone else did in those days. i'm not saying that's a bad thing.. as for the origins of psychedelia, beyond that that term is poorly defined... i would look to the folk rock and acid rock bands out of san franscisco during that time frame, think about the free speech movement and flower power.

 ;yes

Of course, I agree that the Byrds were influenced by the Beatles, even in that groundbreaking song. But the way "Eight Miles High" was recorded and played was very innovative, something the Beatles hadn't done yet.

About the origin of pychedelia, we could also name "The Word", because of the colorful lyrics, the repetitive guitar, crazy bass playing, the intrincate drumming and the hypnotic harmonium. But it would be a proto-psychedelic tune. But still the first nearly pure psychedelic songs I can think of are "Eight Miles High" and "Shapes Of Things".

As for everyone copying the Beatles, I think it was a reciprocal thing. The Beatles influenced others as others influenced the Beatles as well (Dylan, Byrds, Yardbirds, Beach Boys, etc.). As John said, the Beatles were a part of the 60's movement, not the whole movement.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Gary910 on April 08, 2011, 10:12:42 PM

They just put it around that they were the first at a few things.


That was one of the funniest posts I have seen in a long time.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hombre_de_ningun_lugar on April 08, 2011, 10:18:03 PM
Donovan recorded Sunshine Superman in December, 1965.

"Sunshine Superman" could be another proto-psychedelic song, but I wouldn't consider it pure psyschedelia. I mean, it doesn't sound that different than things heard before.

The way the guitars sound, the free drumming, dense bass and trippy lyrics in both "Eight Miles High" and "Shapes Of Things" make them the first psychedelic songs in my opinion.



Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hombre_de_ningun_lugar on April 08, 2011, 10:29:08 PM
Honestly, the Beatles probably werent first at anything. They just had the luxury of being extremely popular and people noticed their stuff before others got credit. Thats how I feel anyways.

I know that you already know this, but the Beatles were the first rock band that used intended feed back in record ("I Feel Fine"), sitar (at least in a prominent rock record, "Norwegian Wood"), fuzz bass ("Think For Yourself"), tape loops (piano recorded at half-speed and played at double-speed in "In My Life"), backwards sounds (vocals in "Rain"; guitar in "I'm Only Sleeping"), Sgt. Pepper's was the first rock album where the songs blend into each other with no breaks, etc. Maybe someone did those things before the Beatles and we (or I) don't know, but I guess that the Beatles didn't know too.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hello Goodbye on April 08, 2011, 11:30:39 PM
"Sunshine Superman" could be another proto-psychedelic song, but I wouldn't consider it pure psyschedelia. I mean, it doesn't sound that different than things heard before.

The way the guitars sound, the free drumming, dense bass and trippy lyrics in both "Eight Miles High" and "Shapes Of Things" make them the first psychedelic songs in my opinion.


Well, Nowhere Man, we considered Sunshine Superman psychedelic back in 1966.  And we already had the term for it.

In late 1965 Grace Slick wrote this song and performed it with The Great Society...

The Great Society White Rabbit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8C74ET-fZw#ws)

We called that psychedelic too.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: nimrod on April 08, 2011, 11:31:59 PM
Honestly, the Beatles probably werent first at anything. They just had the luxury of being extremely popular and people noticed their stuff before others got credit. Thats how I feel anyways.

My own feeling is that you are right here tkitna, I think they obviously had a keen eye on what was happening with bands like the Fugs etc and yes they jumped on some bandwaggons (pardon the pun) ...
What made the difference though was that the beatles were the biggest band in the world so they popularised all sorts of things, I think Im right in saying that The Yardbirds tried to put sitar on a single before norwegian wood but ended up just making a guitar sound similar to a sitar, I believe it was 'Heart Full Of Soul'
Pepper was the biggie though, first gatefold sleeve, first real album artwork, first album to have lyrics printed and as Bill Brufford of Yes said;
The Beatles. They broke down every barrier that ever existed. Suddenly you could do anything after The Beatles. You could write your own music, make it ninety yards long, put it in 7/4, whatever you wanted.

Whoever was first to slow a piano down and play it through a leslie speaker......I think thats a great epitaph.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hello Goodbye on April 08, 2011, 11:50:15 PM
I think they obviously had a keen eye on what was happening with bands like the Fugs


Cheers, nimrod!  I didn't think they were known outside the New York City area.  Here they are in 1965...

Fugs - I Couldn't Get High (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNbU8WCyVe8#)
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: nimrod on April 08, 2011, 11:57:27 PM
Ive had the Fugs albums since the 70's HG, loved them along with the Mothers, Love, Iron Butterfly etc
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hello Goodbye on April 09, 2011, 12:24:42 AM
The way the guitars sound, the free drumming, dense bass and trippy lyrics...

I think that applies to The Great Society's performance of White Rabbit.  Indeed, I feel this performance is a whole lot more psychedelic than Jefferson Airplane's.  And that was psychedelic.

Jefferson Airplane -White Rabbit- (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WANNqr-vcx0#)
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hello Goodbye on April 09, 2011, 02:24:01 AM
Ive had the Fugs albums since the 70's HG, loved them along with the Mothers, Love, Iron Butterfly etc

David Peel And The Lower East Side too?
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hombre_de_ningun_lugar on April 09, 2011, 02:55:16 AM
Well, Nowhere Man, we considered Sunshine Superman psychedelic back in 1966.  And we already had the term for it.

In late 1965 Grace Slick wrote this song and performed it with The Great Society...

The Great Society White Rabbit ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8C74ET-fZw#ws[/url])

We called that psychedelic too.


Maybe according to those early standards "Sunshine Superman" was considered psychedelic in 1966, but I think it wasn't in comparison to true psychedelic music that came later.

Thanks for that video of the Great Society. I'm a huge Jefferson Airplane fan. That early version of "White Rabbit" sounds rare, that's true, but I wouldn't call it psychedelic too, just my opinion. The definitive Jefferson Airplane version is certainly pure psychedelia, acid rock at its best (can't beat that Jack Casady's thunderous bass).
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hombre_de_ningun_lugar on April 09, 2011, 03:00:23 AM
I'm posting the two songs I mentioned. I think nothing sounded like that in early 1966, that's why I say they were the first true psychedelic songs in rock history, despite other proto-psychedelic tunes that came before.

Byrds - Eight Miles High (RARE 1967 clip) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bMjUU972So#)

Yardbirds - "Shape of things" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn2JFlteeJ0#)
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hello Goodbye on April 09, 2011, 03:16:35 AM
Thanks for that video of the Great Society. I'm a huge Jefferson Airplane fan. That early version of "White Rabbit" sounds rare, that's true, but I wouldn't call it psychedelic too, just my opinion. The definitive Jefferson Airplane version is certainly pure psychedelia, acid rock at its best (can't beat that Jack Casady's thunderous bass).

But remember, that performance of White Rabbit by The Great Society was live at The Matrix.  There were no studio effects in that recording.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hombre_de_ningun_lugar on April 09, 2011, 03:31:21 AM
But remember, that performance of White Rabbit by The Great Society was live at The Matrix.  There were no studio effects in that recording.

Yes, I notice it was live. It sounds like later live acid rock songs by Jefferson Airplane actually. But I guess that studio effects are necessary for true psychedelia.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hello Goodbye on April 09, 2011, 03:37:51 AM
Thanks for that video of the Great Society. I'm a huge Jefferson Airplane fan. That early version of "White Rabbit" sounds rare, that's true, but I wouldn't call it psychedelic too, just my opinion. The definitive Jefferson Airplane version is certainly pure psychedelia, acid rock at its best (can't beat that Jack Casady's thunderous bass).

...as for the origins of psychedelia, beyond that that term is poorly defined... i would look to the folk rock and acid rock bands out of san franscisco during that time frame, think about the free speech movement and flower power.

 ;yes

The Great Society was part of the San Francisco Bay Area acid rock scene in 1965.  They were part of the development of "Psychedelic Rock."  I think the question of which song was the first psychedelic rock song will be debated forever.  I just tossed out these songs to provoke some further thought.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hello Goodbye on April 09, 2011, 03:43:49 AM
But I guess that studio effects are necessary for true psychedelia.

For that reason I would say that live performances of Eight Miles High and Shape Of Things would sound less psychedelic than their studio counterparts.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hello Goodbye on April 09, 2011, 03:55:04 AM
The definitive Jefferson Airplane version is certainly pure psychedelia, acid rock at its best (can't beat that Jack Casady's thunderous bass).


But I guess that studio effects are necessary for true psychedelia.



Jefferson Airplane White Rabbit (Live At Woodstock 1969) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zf_AMkxYl8#)

See what I mean?
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hello Goodbye on April 09, 2011, 04:02:01 AM
And what you meant too, Nowhere Man.  ;)
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hombre_de_ningun_lugar on April 09, 2011, 04:07:33 AM
For that reason I would say that live performances of Eight Miles High and Shape Of Things would sound less psychedelic than their studio counterparts.

I agree. And the Beatles were the masters of the studio, so my point was that they were beaten when we talk about creating psychedelia in studio. Of course they soon made the definitive psychedelic song with "Tomorrow Never Knows" (first song recorded for Revolver, in April 1966).
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hello Goodbye on April 09, 2011, 04:15:11 AM
Exactly!

We had a recent thread entitled Beatles As Innovators:  http://www.dmbeatles.com/forums/index.php?topic=11016.0 (http://www.dmbeatles.com/forums/index.php?topic=11016.0)

I won't merge these two threads because I feel there are some interesting nuances.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hello Goodbye on April 09, 2011, 05:10:04 AM
To digress just a bit, when Grace Slick was performing with The Great Society, Jefferson Airplane's female singer was Signe Anderson...


(http://ponderingpig.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/1965-earlyjeffair.jpg)


Here's Jefferson Airplane doing Let's Get Together...

Jefferson Airplane "Let's get together" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcjG9jkSZfU#)



...and by the author, Chet Powers (aka Dino Valenti)...

Dino Valenti - Let's Get Together (1964) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jQV30mKW6c#ws)

1964



The Youngbloods recorded it in 1967.  It was a minor hit that year, but a much bigger hit for them in 1969...

The Youngbloods - Get Together (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4fWN6VvgKQ#)
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hello Goodbye on April 09, 2011, 05:14:07 AM
(http://www.rutherfordjournal.org/images/020107-02.jpg)

"Feed your head?  I never said that.  Jefferson Airplane made that up!"
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hombre_de_ningun_lugar on April 09, 2011, 02:37:30 PM
I really love their debut record Jefferson Airplane Takes Off. It also featured future Moby Grape's member Skip Spence on drums. Signe Anderson was a great singer too; I believe she left the band because she was pregnant and wanted a quiet life. This may be her best moment:

Jefferson Airplane "Chauffeur Blues" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p7R-QGpZmI#)
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Normandie on April 09, 2011, 03:11:49 PM
I know that you already know this, but the Beatles were the first rock band that used intended feed back in record ("I Feel Fine")

Ah, I was sure you were wrong on this, that "Anyway, Anyhow, Anywhere" by the Who was the first in which feedback was used, but you're right -- "I Feel Fine" was first, by a year. 
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hombre_de_ningun_lugar on April 09, 2011, 03:29:29 PM
Ah, I was sure you were wrong on this, that "Anyway, Anyhow, Anywhere" by the Who was the first in which feedback was used, but you're right -- "I Feel Fine" was first, by a year. 

I've heard that Pete Townshend was experimenting with feed back before the Beatles did it, but on record the Beatles did it first.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hello Goodbye on April 09, 2011, 10:08:42 PM
I know that you already know this, but the Beatles were the first rock band that used intended feed back in record ("I Feel Fine"), sitar (at least in a prominent rock record, "Norwegian Wood"), fuzz bass ("Think For Yourself"), tape loops (piano recorded at half-speed and played at double-speed in "In My Life"), backwards sounds (vocals in "Rain"; guitar in "I'm Only Sleeping"), Sgt. Pepper's was the first rock album where the songs blend into each other with no breaks, etc. Maybe someone did those things before the Beatles and we (or I) don't know, but I guess that the Beatles didn't know too.


Don't Worry 'Bout Me

Marty Robbins: Don't Worry (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCbIAmy6X0M#)

Marty Robbins   1961



(http://pushedbuttonsburning-in.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/grady_martin_FUZZ-GOD.jpg)

Grady Martin and his 6-string bass on Don't Worry 'Bout Me





...and ten years earlier...

Rocket 88

Rocket 88 (Original Version) - Ike Turner/Jackie Brenston (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gbfnh1oVTk0#)

Ike Turner   1951


(http://www.bobcorritore.com/images/IkeKingsOfRhythm.jpg)

Jesse Knight with his Fender Precision Bass
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hombre_de_ningun_lugar on April 09, 2011, 10:37:21 PM
Actually I wasn't sure about the fuzz bass item. Thanks Hello Goodbye.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hello Goodbye on April 09, 2011, 11:18:30 PM
They got the fuzz effect by fooling around with the circuits and tubes in their amps.

I know that you already know this, but the Beatles were the first rock band that used intended feed back in record ("I Feel Fine"), sitar (at least in a prominent rock record, "Norwegian Wood"), fuzz bass ("Think For Yourself"), tape loops (piano recorded at half-speed and played at double-speed in "In My Life"), backwards sounds (vocals in "Rain"; guitar in "I'm Only Sleeping"), Sgt. Pepper's was the first rock album where the songs blend into each other with no breaks, etc. Maybe someone did those things before the Beatles and we (or I) don't know, but I guess that the Beatles didn't know too.


According to Wikipedia, Johnny "Guitar" Watson's ferocious "Space Guitar" of 1954 pioneered guitar feedback and reverb.

Johnny "Guitar" Watson - Space Guitar (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVsNlchp0GE#)

                       

Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hello Goodbye on April 09, 2011, 11:34:37 PM
I know that you already know this, but the Beatles were the first rock band that used intended feed back in record ("I Feel Fine"), sitar (at least in a prominent rock record, "Norwegian Wood"), fuzz bass ("Think For Yourself"), tape loops (piano recorded at half-speed and played at double-speed in "In My Life"), backwards sounds (vocals in "Rain"; guitar in "I'm Only Sleeping"), Sgt. Pepper's was the first rock album where the songs blend into each other with no breaks, etc. Maybe someone did those things before the Beatles and we (or I) don't know, but I guess that the Beatles didn't know too.


The Yardbirds hired a sitar player to play riffs on Heart Full Of Soul.  The sitar version was not released thus making Norwegian Wood the first rock song to feature a sitar.

HEART FULL OF SOUL - SITAR VERSION (THE YARDBIRDS april, 1965) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1h7rCwbsuY#)

April, 1965
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hello Goodbye on April 10, 2011, 04:41:20 AM
I think Im right in saying that The Yardbirds tried to put sitar on a single before norwegian wood but ended up just making a guitar sound similar to a sitar, I believe it was 'Heart Full Of Soul'

The sitar sounded a bit thin so Jeff Beck used a fuzz box to achieve a sitar-like effect...

The Yardbirds - Heart Full Of Soul (With Jeff Beck) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e--e8fScb2A#)
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hombre_de_ningun_lugar on April 10, 2011, 03:23:12 PM
Indeed, the guitar of the final version of "Heart Full Of Soul" does sound like a sitar. "See My Friends" by the Kinks (also from mid-1965) has that raga sound too.

THE KINKS "See my friends" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2Al7u0cKRk#)
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: 7 of 13 on April 10, 2011, 10:07:53 PM
listen. this is a fascinating discussion up to this point... but...this does not in anyway prove that psychedelia began with a couple/handful of pop songs from the later stages of beatlemania. or by any random collection of american and british folk, folk-rock and straightforward rock bands. don't get me wrong, i love those songs, no doubt, especially donovan, but pschedelia didn't begin there, it was part of something bigger, pop rock is what it is. just like the free speech movement didn't really begin at Peoples Park in Berkeley, though it is convenient to thinks so. just like the civil rights movement didn't begin with Martin Luther King and his 'I Have a Dream' speech, but i suppose it can be considered a turning point. if by pschedelia you mean acid rock, then you have alot of explaining to do about how that can only happen in a recording studio. that idea in itself seems a wee bit contrived and shall we a poor synthesis to me.

that's like saying a drum circle is not a drum circle unless you have someone on cowbell and everybody has to wear a green shirt. i hope you can see how contrived/unrealistic that is.

Quote
About the origin of pychedelia, we could also name "The Word", because of the colorful lyrics, the repetitive guitar, crazy bass playing, the intrincate drumming and the hypnotic harmonium. But it would be a proto-psychedelic tune. But still the first nearly pure psychedelic songs I can think of are "Eight Miles High" and "Shapes Of Things".
again those might be fine examples of proto-acid rock and acid rock, but that has precisely nothing to do with the the civil rights and free speech movements that were also a prominent part of the the 1960's counterculture. again the framework was much larger, a good example of this, is dino valenti song get together, other bands were able to expand and improve upon his original song and the beautiful lyrics.
 ;sorry
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hombre_de_ningun_lugar on April 11, 2011, 04:23:48 AM
I see your point, and I understand that psychedelia was a process, not something that appeared with a couple of songs. My point was that those songs were the first ones that we could consider as pure psychedelia, despite this may be a subjective argument. And I'm just talking about music, by the way, I know that psychedelia as a movement was something beyond rock.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hello Goodbye on April 11, 2011, 05:16:06 AM
again the framework was much larger, a good example of this, is dino valenti song get together, other bands were able to expand and improve upon his original song and the beautiful lyrics.

It's hard to say if Chet Powers' original version of Let's Get Together was improved upon by other artists.  That would be a matter of individual taste.  But it certainly became one of the love and peace anthems of the 1960s.


THE KINGSTON TRIO- "GET TOGETHER" (W / LYRICS) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wo-Oc2los_k#)
1964


Early DAVID CROSBY - GET TOGETHER (Pre-Byrds Folk Rock) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMb7ws8L5N0#)
1964


We Five - Let's Get Together (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAg-EgnOfqQ#)
1965


HP Lovecraft - 02 - Let's Get Together (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38GEWRTUsIA#ws)
1967


Crosby Stills Nash & Young & Joni Mitchel - Everybody get together (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKVD1xoyCLA#)
1969


The Carpenters - Get Together [1969] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxLVRJ6QDQ0#ws)
1969
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hello Goodbye on April 11, 2011, 06:13:03 AM
You're welcome, Kelley.  Let's Get Together is one of my favorite songs too.  And one of the first I learned on guitar.

That was Joni Mitchell, CS&N and John Sebastian at the September, 1969 Big Sur Folk Festival.  Neil Young was there too but he refused to be filmed.

Barry
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Bobber on April 11, 2011, 06:59:12 AM

That was Joni Mitchell, CS&N and John Sebastian at the September, 1969 Big Sur Folk Festival.

Watching the video, I can imagine it was a wonderful time to live in. Where did that feeling of the late sixties ever go to?
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hombre_de_ningun_lugar on April 11, 2011, 03:09:14 PM
My favourite version of "Let's Get Together" is the one by Jefferson Airplane, though I may be biased in my opinion since I'm a big fan of them. I love the guitar solo of Jorma Kaukonen in that song.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: 7 of 13 on April 11, 2011, 04:54:37 PM
It's hard to say if Chet Powers' original version of Let's Get Together was improved upon by other artists.  That would be a matter of individual taste.  But it certainly became one of the love and peace anthems of the 1960s.
well then i screwed up, i had no idea that was a Chet Powers song, i just noticed the worlds of difference between the youngbloods version and the dino valenti version of that song.
;sorry
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hello Goodbye on April 11, 2011, 05:55:32 PM
No, it's easy to mess up.  Chester (Chet) William Powers, Jr. was known by his stage name Dino Valenti as a singer.  He used the name Jesse Oris Farrow as a songwriter.  When he joined Quicksilver Messenger Service, he used the name Dino Valente.

(http://www.streamingoldies.com/content-images/pso10/streamingoldies-dino-valenti.jpg)

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_a_oAl0zeNEg/S_BetVInyYI/AAAAAAAABOo/YguLUJNNC1I/s1600/Dino+Valenti.png)
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hombre_de_ningun_lugar on April 11, 2011, 06:03:50 PM
Dino Valenti is also said to be the author of the famous song "Hey Joe" (made by Hendrix, the Byrds, Love, the Leaves), but I've read that the actual songwriter was a guy named Billy Roberts (or was it another pseudonym of him?).

I like his song "Dino's Song", here played by Quicksilver Messenger Service in the Monterrey Pop Festival in 1967 (I think he wasn't a member of the band yet):

Quicksilver Messenger Service LIVE 1967 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqVVnExlX9c#)
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: 7 of 13 on April 12, 2011, 12:49:49 AM
Dino Valenti is also said to be the author of the famous song "Hey Joe" (made by Hendrix, the Byrds, Love, the Leaves), but I've read that the actual songwriter was a guy named Billy Roberts (or was it another pseudonym of him?).

I like his song "Dino's Song", here played by Quicksilver Messenger Service in the Monterrey Pop Festival in 1967 (I think he wasn't a member of the band yet):

Quicksilver Messenger Service LIVE 1967 ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqVVnExlX9c#[/url])
quicksilver messenger service, there isn't alot to say.

No, it's easy to mess up.  Chester (Chet) William Powers, Jr. was known by his stage name Dino Valenti as a singer.  He used the name Jesse Oris Farrow as a songwriter.  When he joined Quicksilver Messenger Service, he used the name Dino Valenti.
you mean i had it right the first time. anyway his version has plenty of punch, but i am most familar with The Youngbloods version.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hello Goodbye on April 12, 2011, 04:27:30 AM
Right, 7 of 13.  Chet Powers and Dino Valenti are the same person.

I remember hearing Let's Get Together for the first time as performed by Jefferson Airplane and soon after by The We Five in 1965.  I heard The Youngbloods' version in 1967 but it really became popular in 1969 when it was used in a TV commercial for the National Conference of Christians and Jews.  I heard the original version by Chet Powers a year or two before.

It took its rightful place as an anthem of the 1960s along with Blowin' In The Wind, The Times They Are a-Changin', Where Have All The Flowers Gone, I Ain't Marching Anymore, I-Feel-Like-I'm-Fixin'-To-Die Rag, Turn! Turn! Turn! and others.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hello Goodbye on May 10, 2011, 01:10:08 AM
Watching the video, I can imagine it was a wonderful time to live in. Where did that feeling of the late sixties ever go to?


I don't know, Bobber...

(http://i54.tinypic.com/2v1vk3p.jpg)

...and sometimes I still think of Barbara.

Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hello Goodbye on May 10, 2011, 03:38:40 AM
Bobber, Joni Mitchell didn't make Woodstock.  She wrote the song and performed it at Big Sur...

Joni Mitchell - Woodstock (Big Sur, CA 1969) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBqodL2OJ1A#)

We are stardust...billion year old carbon
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: In My Life on May 10, 2011, 03:58:10 AM
I really wanted to go to Woodstock but I was only 6 so my parents wouldn't let me. ;) They wouldn't let my brother either. I'm surprised he didn't just take off and go anyway. He had his ticket.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hello Goodbye on May 10, 2011, 04:39:34 AM
I made it to Monticello where I left my car (the MGB).  Route 17B was jammed.  I was supposed to meet my cousin in Bethel so I took off by foot.  I reminisced on the 40th anniversary here:  http://www.dmbeatles.com/forums/index.php?topic=9430.0 (http://www.dmbeatles.com/forums/index.php?topic=9430.0)
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: In My Life on May 10, 2011, 04:54:14 AM
^^^
So you actually made it there! I've always wanted to know someone who was there. ;)
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: In My Life on May 10, 2011, 05:08:05 AM
^^^
So you actually made it there! I've always wanted to know someone who was there. ;)

Oh, I see what happened now. LOL Sounds like you had a good time anyway. ;) ;) I just remembered that my boss was there. I was pretty surprised when I found that out second hand, at the time of the 40th anniversary. People were snickering about it behind his back but I had to ask him about it. I think he was just as surprised that I was interested.
He had a long walk to get there too but he didn't get distracted.  ;)
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hello Goodbye on May 10, 2011, 05:35:07 AM
Oh, I see what happened now. LOL Sounds like you had a good time anyway. ;) ;)

We missed the big gig.  I heard it was far out!  ;)
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hombre_de_ningun_lugar on May 11, 2011, 12:48:11 AM
I heard it was far out!  ;)

And groovy too... ;)

I wish I had been to Woodstock, but I was born 9 years after and in a different country.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hello Goodbye on May 11, 2011, 01:49:28 AM
I wish I had been to Woodstock, but I was born 9 years after

Now if you were born ten years after, you would have been there!

Uh oh...I think I'm reliving the 60s
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: In My Life on May 11, 2011, 03:18:29 AM
Now if you were born ten years after, you would have been there!

Uh oh...I think I'm reliving the 60s


Ten Years After Live @ Woodstock 1969 I'm Going Home (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imRmFQ60DQc#)
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hello Goodbye on May 11, 2011, 04:39:29 AM
Yeah.  I'm definitely reliving the 60s.  Far out!
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hombre_de_ningun_lugar on May 11, 2011, 04:47:56 AM
Now if you were born ten years after, you would have been there!

Uh oh...I think I'm reliving the 60s

Yeah, ten years after I would have seen the happenings ten years time ago. Surrealistic, man.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hello Goodbye on May 11, 2011, 04:04:52 PM
Yeah, ten years after I would have seen the happenings ten years time ago. Surrealistic, man.

Yeah!  That's blowing my mind, man!  Can you dig it?
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: In My Life on May 13, 2011, 04:03:26 AM
Yeah!  That's blowing my mind, man!  Can you dig it?

I knew that you could!
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: NYSPORTSFAN on October 25, 2013, 10:09:03 PM
The Beach Boys were definately ahead of The Beatles when it came to vocal harmonies, and innovative chord progressions.

I actually don't agree with this at all I remember reading Dylan and The Byrds were astounded by The Beatles chords progressions early on and were talking about their music from 1963. No one was forming groups after hearing the Beach Boys in 1963/1964.
 
As for psychedelic rock even before the onset of psychedelic rock started The Beatles were writing proto-hippie songs "The Word" using sitars "Norwegian Wood" and the album cover on Rubber Soul is pretty much a proto psychedelic album cover. I think the unreleased version of take 2 "Norwegian Wood" is certainly psychedelic. Even if they weren't first they certainly took psychedelic rock further than The Byrds or The Yardbirds.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: NYSPORTSFAN on October 25, 2013, 10:29:09 PM
I know that you already know this, but the Beatles were the first rock band that used intended feed back in record ("I Feel Fine"), sitar (at least in a prominent rock record, "Norwegian Wood"), fuzz bass ("Think For Yourself"), tape loops (piano recorded at half-speed and played at double-speed in "In My Life"), backwards sounds (vocals in "Rain"; guitar in "I'm Only Sleeping"), Sgt. Pepper's was the first rock album where the songs blend into each other with no breaks, etc. Maybe someone did those things before the Beatles and we (or I) don't know, but I guess that the Beatles didn't know too.

The Beatles were probably rock great artists in terms of fusing non-rock sources with pop music. Like it or not "Norwegian Wood" were the first rock band to release a song with sitar probably tamboura and tablas on "Love You To".  They were probably first to use feedback on a rock song with "I Feel Fine" and "Space Guitar" by Johnny Guitar Watson does not have any sustain feedback. As for fuzz bass I am sure there were others before The Beatles but the lead use of fuzz bass acting like a lead guitar I can't think of any that predates The Beatles.

The point is The Beatles were able to integrate this things before their peers like The Yardbirds or The Byrds. Heck Roger McGuinn took inspiration from George Harrison use of 12 string jangle sound and it became a mainstay of the Byrds sound. I actually go on and on what The Beatles were the first at doing in terms of the rock sound.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hombre_de_ningun_lugar on October 25, 2013, 11:51:21 PM
The point is The Beatles were able to integrate this things before their peers like The Yardbirds or The Byrds. Heck Roger McGuinn took inspiration from George Harrison use of 12 string jangle sound and it became a mainstay of the Byrds sound. I actually go on and on what The Beatles were the first at doing in terms of the rock sound.

Of course that the Beatles was a huge influence for the Byrds, but the Byrds also influenced the Beatles in a very important way. For instance, Rubber Soul was the Beatles answer to the Byrds' Mr. Tambourine Man. And the Yardbirds experimented more than anyone with guitar in 1965, Jeff Beck invented heavy rock guitar with them; and I find the sound of the Beatles' "Rain" to be influenced by the Yardbirds' "Shapes Of Things".
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hello Goodbye on October 26, 2013, 12:41:09 AM
I actually don't agree with this at all I remember reading Dylan and The Byrds were astounded by The Beatles chords progressions early on and were talking about their music from 1963. No one was forming groups after hearing the Beach Boys in 1963/1964.
 
As for psychedelic rock even before the onset of psychedelic rock started The Beatles were writing proto-hippie songs "The Word" using sitars "Norwegian Wood" and the album cover on Rubber Soul is pretty much a proto psychedelic album cover. I think the unreleased version of take 2 "Norwegian Wood" is certainly psychedelic. Even if they weren't first they certainly took psychedelic rock further than The Byrds or The Yardbirds.



The Beatles were probably rock great artists in terms of fusing non-rock sources with pop music. Like it or not "Norwegian Wood" were the first rock band to release a song with sitar probably tamboura and tablas on "Love You To".  They were probably first to use feedback on a rock song with "I Feel Fine" and "Space Guitar" by Johnny Guitar Watson does not have any sustain feedback. As for fuzz bass I am sure there were others before The Beatles but the lead use of fuzz bass acting like a lead guitar I can't think of any that predates The Beatles.

The point is The Beatles were able to integrate this things before their peers like The Yardbirds or The Byrds. Heck Roger McGuinn took inspiration from George Harrison use of 12 string jangle sound and it became a mainstay of the Byrds sound. I actually go on and on what The Beatles were the first at doing in terms of the rock sound.


Welcome to the Forum, NYSPORTSFAN.  It's nice having you here.

You'll be interested in the Beatles As Innovators thread, I'm sure:  http://www.dmbeatles.com/forums/index.php?topic=11016.0 (http://www.dmbeatles.com/forums/index.php?topic=11016.0)

There were some great arguments made in that thread, some in jest and some for real.  These are threads worthy of revival.





Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: oldbrownshoe on October 26, 2013, 06:11:10 AM
Early versions of The Yardbirds' 'Heart Full of Soul' (6/65) had a sitar part, and The Kinks' 'See My Friends' (7/65) has a distinct feel which replicates an Indian-style drone.
The era was one where at any one time a group or artist would forge ahead (sometimes even individuals within the same group - Graham Nash?). The Beatles did it more than most, but were not always the first to do something.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: nimrod on October 26, 2013, 11:42:47 AM
Early versions of The Yardbirds' 'Heart Full of Soul' (6/65) had a sitar part,

which was played on a guitar by Jeff Beck
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: NYSPORTSFAN on October 26, 2013, 12:02:04 PM
Welcome to the Forum, NYSPORTSFAN.  It's nice having you here.

You'll be interested in the Beatles As Innovators thread, I'm sure:  [url]http://www.dmbeatles.com/forums/index.php?topic=11016.0[/url] ([url]http://www.dmbeatles.com/forums/index.php?topic=11016.0[/url])

There were some great arguments made in that thread, some in jest and some for real.  These are threads worthy of revival.


Thank you.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: NYSPORTSFAN on October 26, 2013, 12:11:24 PM
Early versions of The Yardbirds' 'Heart Full of Soul' (6/65) had a sitar part, and The Kinks' 'See My Friends' (7/65) has a distinct feel which replicates an Indian-style drone.
The era was one where at any one time a group or artist would forge ahead (sometimes even individuals within the same group - Graham Nash?). The Beatles did it more than most, but were not always the first to do something.

The point is The Beatles were the first rock band to record and release a song that features a sitar. I mean The Beatles were experimenting with fuzz guitar on "She Loves You" but they never released it which would have made them actually ahead of The Rolling Stones and The Yardbirds.  The Beatles didn't release the first take of IMO psychedelic "Norwegian Wood" until Anthology and there is a no doubt psychedelic take of "Norwegian Wood" that hasn't been released.

Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: NYSPORTSFAN on October 26, 2013, 12:27:49 PM
Of course that the Beatles was a huge influence for the Byrds, but the Byrds also influenced the Beatles in a very important way. For instance, Rubber Soul was the Beatles answer to the Byrds' Mr. Tambourine Man. And the Yardbirds experimented more than anyone with guitar in 1965, Jeff Beck invented heavy rock guitar with them; and I find the sound of the Beatles' "Rain" to be influenced by the Yardbirds' "Shapes Of Things".

I never viewed "Rain" as related by the Yardbirds. A better cousin of "Rain" is their own "Ticket To Ride" with it slow droning ringing guitars and off kilter drumming. Doesn't "Ticket To Ride" actually pre-date both "See My Friends" or "Heart Full of Soul"?

The guitar drone on "Rain" is certainly derived from Indian music  and that unusual backward vocal fade-out in which both  are absent on "Shapes of Things". I love Jeff Beck but he certainly didn't invent heavy metal guitar. We need to go around 1968/1969 for that.

Nothing against The Byrds either but without The Beatles influencing them to form in the first place because they thought folk with rock music would work there would have been no Byrds. I know George Harrison "I Needed Someone" was a Byrds influenced track but I think Rubber Soul is more influenced by Dylan and pot.

You have to remember The Beatles were already going the path of both folk rock and country rock on Beatles for Sale and 12 string jangle pop on both "A Hard Day's Night" and Beatles for Sale before The Byrds Mr. Tambourine Man.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Dcazz on October 26, 2013, 12:43:13 PM
which was played on a guitar by Jeff Beck
I saw Jeff Beck's There and Back Tour at the Berkeley Greek Theater and he had his electric sitar  and his Fender Strat. He played them both for the same song switching back and forth throughout the song! Amazing stuff !
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Joost on October 26, 2013, 01:25:28 PM
No one was forming groups after hearing the Beach Boys in 1963/1964.

It's true that The Beatles were more influencial than The Beach Boys. Partially because they were more popular, obviously. But not just because of that. I think it's also because The Beach Boys were just much harder to imitate. Any competent four piece guitar band should be able to play a decent version of any of the early Beatles songs. But not a whole lot of bands will be able to play a good cover of 'I Get Around', 'In My Room' or 'Surfer Girl', because you'll need to have four good singers with different vocal ranges.

Same goes for the later studio material. If you've got some decent songwriting skills and the budget to hire an orchestra, it shouldn't be too hard to record something that reminds of the 'Sgt. Pepper' album. But when was the last time you've heard a song by anyone else than The Beach Boys that sounded like it could've been a 'Pet Sounds' outtake?

Few band in pop music history inspired more people to start a band than the Sex Pistols did. And not because they were so great, but because a whole lot of people thought, "Wait, I can do that...".
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hombre_de_ningun_lugar on October 26, 2013, 01:27:04 PM
I never viewed "Rain" as related by the Yardbirds. A better cousin of "Rain" is their own "Ticket To Ride" with it slow droning ringing guitars and off kilter drumming. Doesn't "Ticket To Ride" actually pre-date both "See My Friends" or "Heart Full of Soul"?

This discussion would be endless because we'll always find an earlier root of anything. The point that I stated here more than two years ago and I still maintain is that "Shapes Of Things" and "Eight Miles High" were the first straight psychedelic songs, both lyrics and music, and of course that previous influences existed, like everything. The Beatles did the next step with "Tomorrow Never Knows", that was certainly the definitive psychedelic song.

Quote
The guitar drone on "Rain" is certainly derived from Indian music  and that unusual backward vocal fade-out in which both  are absent on "Shapes of Things". I love Jeff Beck but he certainly didn't invent heavy metal guitar. We need to go around 1968/1969 for that.

I can hear Indian music elements in "Shapes Of Things" as well, if not as prominent as in "Rain". And I didn't talk about heavy metal guitar, just heavy rock guitar. The instrument had never been used like that before, just listen to songs like "You're A Better Man Than I", "Evil Hearted You" or "The Train Kept A-Rollin'". And if we talk about proto-psychedelia, "Still I'm Sad" was released as a B-side in October 1965, when the Beatles started to record Rubber Soul. You can hear eastern influences there too.

Quote
Nothing against The Byrds either but without The Beatles influencing them to form in the first place because they thought folk with rock music would work there would have been no Byrds. I know George Harrison "I Needed Someone" was a Byrds influenced track but I think Rubber Soul is more influenced by Dylan and pot.

You don't need to convince me that the Beatles were a much more important influence for the Byrds than the Byrds for the Beatles, because I totally agree with that, of course. And you don't need to make me see that the Beatles were the most important group in rock history, because I believe that too. But you shouldn't underestimate the important contributions of other bands like the Byrds or the Yardbirds; admiting that they also were a big influence for the Beatles doesn't mean putting the Fab Four down, is just talking about this amazing interaction during the 60's.

Quote
You have to remember The Beatles were already going the path of both folk rock and country rock on Beatles for Sale and 12 string jangle pop on both "A Hard Day's Night" and Beatles for Sale before The Byrds Mr. Tambourine Man.

Yes, but the Byrds did the next step with Mr. Tambourine Man, then the Beatles went further with Rubber Soul, then the Beach Boys answered with Pet Sounds, then we had Sgt. Pepper's, etc.

Have you really listened to the Byrds' Mr. Tambourine Man? It really defined Folk Rock as a genre, if we shouldn't say that they invented it (that would be hard to tell). "If I Needed Someone" is very similar to "The Bells Of Rhymney" (initial riff and harmony vocals), but that was not the unique influence, "Norwegian Wood" is almost "I Knew I'd Want You" with added sitar, "Drive My Car" is a soft rocker with a consecutive guitar-bass-drums intro just like in "It's No Use", the anti-love theme of "You Won't See Me" and "I'm Looking Though You" was already done in "I'll Feel A Whole Lot Better" (Dylan had done that but not in a rock-pop context), etc.

See, Rubber Soul is my very favorite album of all time, but that's exactly why I go back and admire the previous influential work of the Byrds. Don't be afraid of recognizing other bands merits.

By the way, welcome to the forum and thank you for reviving this thread.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: NYSPORTSFAN on October 26, 2013, 03:46:16 PM
It's true that The Beatles were more influencial than The Beach Boys. Partially because they were more popular, obviously. But not just because of that. I think it's also because The Beach Boys were just much harder to imitate. Any competent four piece guitar band should be able to play a decent version of any of the early Beatles songs. But not a whole lot of bands will be able to play a good cover of 'I Get Around', 'In My Room' or 'Surfer Girl', because you'll need to have four good singers with different vocal ranges.

Same goes for the later studio material. If you've got some decent songwriting skills and the budget to hire an orchestra, it shouldn't be too hard to record something that reminds of the 'Sgt. Pepper' album. But when was the last time you've heard a song by anyone else than The Beach Boys that sounded like it could've been a 'Pet Sounds' outtake?

Few band in pop music history inspired more people to start a band than the Sex Pistols did. And not because they were so great, but because a whole lot of people thought, "Wait, I can do that...".

I think The Beatles were more influential than The Beach Boys because they were more innovative and musically more versatile. You have modern electronic artists influenced by tracks like "Tomorrow Never Knows" which is basically a sampled/breakbeat song and "Baby You're A Rich Man", hard rockers with "Helter Skelter, and the proto doom metal of "I Want You She's So Heavy",  virtually every power pop band was influenced by The Beatles and probably the same with folk rock and progressive rock band also.

While The Yardbirds may have released an Indian influenced song before The Beatles a song like "Love You To" was certainly a world music type of song that none of their peers were doing at the time of it's release.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Joost on October 26, 2013, 04:25:43 PM
I think The Beatles were more influential than The Beach Boys because they were more innovative and musically more versatile.
I think they were pretty much equals in that matter. Brian Wilson and Paul McCartney have both confirmed on several occasions that they felt like they kept raising the bar for each other. And it could be argued that at least around 1966, The Beach Boys were ahead of The Beatles creatively. I don't think that 'Revolver' was better, more creative, more progressive, more innovative or deeper than 'Pet Sounds' and the 'Good Vibrations' single were.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: oldbrownshoe on October 26, 2013, 05:11:14 PM
Good point that about The Beach Boys being harder to imitate.

I don't know if anyone has the 'Ready, Steady, Win!' LP or CD, but it came about from a 1964 beat competition on the TV programme 'Ready, Steady, Go' to find a new beat group.

They did indeed find a new beat group, the fabulous Bo Street Runners, but the point about the spin off LP is that all the groups who imitated The Beatles lacked The Beatles professionalism in the studio and song writing ability. However, the other 50% of finalists, to all intents and purposes, mimicked The Stones, and they were far more successful at it because The Stones were always much looser as a group.

So The Beach Boys are harder to imitate than The Beatles who are harder to imitate than The Stones!
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hombre_de_ningun_lugar on October 26, 2013, 11:59:58 PM
While The Yardbirds may have released an Indian influenced song before The Beatles a song like "Love You To" was certainly a world music type of song that none of their peers were doing at the time of it's release.

Yes, but what's the point? The Beatles, the Byrds and the Yardbirds all did amazing advances in the mid-60's due to heavy experimentation, why should we undervalue one band in favor of another?

If you tell me that the Beatles were better, I would agree, but I don't think that they experimented harder than the others.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hombre_de_ningun_lugar on October 27, 2013, 12:21:42 AM
And it could be argued that at least around 1966, The Beach Boys were ahead of The Beatles creatively. I don't think that 'Revolver' was better, more creative, more progressive, more innovative or deeper than 'Pet Sounds' and the 'Good Vibrations' single were.

Both albums were highly important in the development of rock music, but in favor of Revolver I would say that it was more revolutionary. Pet Sounds was creative, innovative and everything, but it was much more predictable than Revolver. "Tomorrow Never Knows" is the most obvious example, it still sounds weird today.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Snoopy66 on October 27, 2013, 07:40:57 PM
Both albums were highly important in the development of rock music, but in favor of Revolver I would say that it was more revolutionary. Pet Sounds was creative, innovative and everything, but it was much more predictable than Revolver. "Tomorrow Never Knows" is the most obvious example, it still sounds weird today.
I fully agree with that statement. Although I love the Beach Boys, I think that the Beatles were ahead of their time with "Revolver", which I found far more progressive than "Pet Sounds".
Snoopy
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: NYSPORTSFAN on October 30, 2013, 11:37:54 PM
I think they were pretty much equals in that matter. Brian Wilson and Paul McCartney have both confirmed on several occasions that they felt like they kept raising the bar for each other. And it could be argued that at least around 1966, The Beach Boys were ahead of The Beatles creatively. I don't think that 'Revolver' was better, more creative, more progressive, more innovative or deeper than 'Pet Sounds' and the 'Good Vibrations' single were.

I actually don't agree those early Beatles songs "If I Fell," "I'll Be Back," "No Reply," etc. were more musically and lyrically sophisticated than what The Beach Boys were doing IMO at the same time. How many rock artists were getting articles written about them by classical musicians when "Not A Second Time" was recorded?

I think Brian Wilson when he heard Rubber Soul knew it was time to ditch the surf sound and get to something more serious hence Pet Sounds.  I don't discredit The Beach Boys influence on The Beatles but I think it was The Beatles who was doing the influencing first because no one was doing rock and roll with tight harmonies more consistently better than them.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: NYSPORTSFAN on October 30, 2013, 11:50:07 PM
Yes, but what's the point? The Beatles, the Byrds and the Yardbirds all did amazing advances in the mid-60's due to heavy experimentation, why should we undervalue one band in favor of another?

If you tell me that the Beatles were better, I would agree, but I don't think that they experimented harder than the others.

I have never undervalued The Byrds and The Yardbirds as I like them but I think The Beatles did more to break the pre-conceived notions of rock music than those bands. If you listen to tracks like "Eleanor Rigby" and "She's Leaving Home" especially the latter one. Rock music is about loud guitars and rebelling against your parents. "She's Leaving Home" backing is a string octet and lyrically you have two generations speaking one with the girl leaving home and Lennon in the background vocally playing the grieving parent.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: NYSPORTSFAN on October 30, 2013, 11:57:49 PM
I found this article on The Beatles I thought it would be interesting for this topic. Some I actually agree with.

The Beatles catalog has been wildly influential over the past half-century. In fact, there are a lot of Beatles filler tracks and throw-aways that seem to foreshadow entire genres of current rock music.

Listen to these tracks and you can hear the sonic blueprint for some of the various "movements" and "scenes" we've been occupying ourselves with for the 40 years since John, Paul, George and Ringo strolled out of the studio and over the crosswalk.

Did The Beatles serve as the main influence on the bands that make this music? Probably not, but their music is so ubiquitous that it's safe to say it played a part in priming both artists and audiences for what was to come.

Oh, and as an added bonus this list is presented with some of YouTube's most awful homemade music videos! Hey, not everything influenced by the Beatles can be great.

Song: "When I'm Sixty-Four"
Year: 1967
Genre: Twee Pop
Bands that wouldn't sound the same without it: Moldy Peaches, Talulah Gosh, Belle and Sebastian
Composition-wise, "When I'm Sixty-Four," is truly peculiar; is there any other well-known song in the history of popular music which uses a clarinet so prominently? The novel, classically-tinted, instrumentation is only a tiny part of its inherent tweeness, though. Just listen to those super schmaltzy lyrics about the simple joys growing old together - this song surely sounds like something Kimya Dawson wrote for the Juno soundtrack.

Song: "Rocky Raccoon
Year: 1968"
Genre: Alt-country
Bands that wouldn't sound the same without it: Drive-By Truckers, Band Of Horses, The entire roster of the Bloodshot Records label
The Beatles played with country and western sounds on a number of songs throughout their career -- going all the way back to "What Goes On" from Rubber Soul and their cover of "Act Naturally" on Help! -- but it's "Rocky Raccoon," that puts together a blueprint for the coming alt-country/Americana/Insurgent movement.
The song is a silly story of a cowboy from the Black Hills of South Dakota who finds God after getting a lead plug fired by his wife's new lover. Actually, Paul McCartney has said he was "basically spoofing the folksinger." It's a great song, though it's really not the sort of thing any British band had any business writing. That's sort of my point, though. The Beatles were doing their best impersonation of country and folk musicians of the time who were trying to reclaim the traditional music of rural America by writing their own stories about bloody incidents inside old west saloons. If four guys from Liverpool could try their hand at that, why not a North Carolina kid like Ryan Adams?

Song: "Helter Skelter"
Year: 1968
Genre: Punk
Bands that wouldn't sound the same without it: The Stooges, Sonic Youth, Motley Crue
Like a lot of songs on this list, "Helter Skelter" was written as an answer to another popular band of the time. After Pete Townshend described "I Can See for Miles," as the loudest, rawest, dirtiest song his band has recorded McCartney tried to one-up him. Yes, the ultimate proto-punk record, the first Stooges album, was in the works at the time, but it's worth remembering that Iggy's debut tanked upon release. "Helter Skelter," on the other hand, gained a huge audience, getting people  ready for the harder-edged punk and metal sounds of the decade to come.

Song: Yellow Submarine
Year: 1966
Genre: Hipster Children's Music
Bands that wouldn't sound the same without it: Wee Hairy Beasties, They Might Be Giants (current kindie version) The Rockabye Baby! series,
Unlike the rest of this list "Yellow Submarine" was actually released as a single. Still, it certainly feels like a b-side that was pressed onto a 7-inch because the Beatles were big enough to do whatever they wanted, and what they wanted to do was to toss Ringo a bone.
This McCartney-penned track was actually quite successful as a single, too, prompting hand-wringing from conservatives who were touchy about John Lennon's then-recent "Bigger Than Jesus" remark and who suspected it just had to be a big dirty hippie drug reference. Nope. The song is a straightforward children's sing-along about a sailor which was just simple enough for The Least Talented Beatle to sing-talk and which went on to directly influence well-meaning indie-type parents who want their kids to grow up with impeccable taste.

Song: Revolution 9
Year: 1968
Genre: Art rock
Bands that wouldn't sound the same without it: Radiohead, Deerhoof, Lou Reed
The Beatles' songwriting started tilting toward the avant-garde with Revolver, which contained slightly off-center songs like the stellar "Tomorrow Never Knows." By their eponymous 1968 album the band had been selling so many records for so long that they could do pretty much whatever they wanted.
So John Lennon, presumably trying to impress his new gf Yoko (who actually has a writing credit on this track) tossed eight minutes of experimental noise onto side four of the White Album. Yes, it's a steaming pile of sh*t but it also opened minds, functioning as a gateway to art rock for generations of kids who started listening to early Beatles pop and soon found themselves trying to understand this disaster. At 8:22, it's also the longest track the band ever released -- more than four times the length of "Yesterday" (2:03) and about 1/1,000th as good.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hombre_de_ningun_lugar on October 31, 2013, 01:23:47 AM
I have never undervalued The Byrds and The Yardbirds as I like them but I think The Beatles did more to break the pre-conceived notions of rock music than those bands. If you listen to tracks like "Eleanor Rigby" and "She's Leaving Home" especially the latter one. Rock music is about loud guitars and rebelling against your parents. "She's Leaving Home" backing is a string octet and lyrically you have two generations speaking one with the girl leaving home and Lennon in the background vocally playing the grieving parent.

But the point was not comparing those bands with the Beatles, I didn't mean to say that the Byrds or the Yardbirds were more influential or more experimental, just that the Beatles weren't the only ones breaking new ground. The Beatles have influenced others and were influenced by others, it was a constant feedback. Maybe the Beatles could do better music, but they were not the only revolutionaries.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hombre_de_ningun_lugar on October 31, 2013, 01:30:05 AM
Song: Revolution 9
Year: 1968
Genre: Art rock
Bands that wouldn't sound the same without it: Radiohead, Deerhoof, Lou Reed
The Beatles' songwriting started tilting toward the avant-garde with Revolver, which contained slightly off-center songs like the stellar "Tomorrow Never Knows." By their eponymous 1968 album the band had been selling so many records for so long that they could do pretty much whatever they wanted.
So John Lennon, presumably trying to impress his new gf Yoko (who actually has a writing credit on this track) tossed eight minutes of experimental noise onto side four of the White Album. Yes, it's a steaming pile of sh*t but it also opened minds, functioning as a gateway to art rock for generations of kids who started listening to early Beatles pop and soon found themselves trying to understand this disaster. At 8:22, it's also the longest track the band ever released -- more than four times the length of "Yesterday" (2:03) and about 1/1,000th as good.


Actually Jefferson Airplane released a sh*ty sound collage in their album After Bathing At Baxter's, a whole year before the white album.

Jefferson Airplane - A Small Package/Young Girl Sunday Blues (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h54WXMbcf-U#)
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: NYSPORTSFAN on October 31, 2013, 02:02:33 AM
Actually Jefferson Airplane released a sh*ty sound collage in their album After Bathing At Baxter's, a whole year before the white album.

Jefferson Airplane - A Small Package/Young Girl Sunday Blues ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h54WXMbcf-U#[/url])


The Beatles had released three songs that could be considered sound collages in "Tomorrow Never Knows", "Being For The Benefit of Mr. Kite" and "I Am Walrus before they got to "Revolution #9".

"Revolution #9" is a different story it's entirely a long collage of pre-recorded sounds, loops, samples including orchestras, crowds, movies, studio chatter and other random and assorted recordings. By the way  After Bathing At Baxter's is an interesting album in all four sides were divided into different suites. I have heard there was a story that the album changed its direction entirely after hearing Sgt. Peppers.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hombre_de_ningun_lugar on October 31, 2013, 07:48:45 PM
The Beatles had released three songs that could be considered sound collages in "Tomorrow Never Knows", "Being For The Benefit of Mr. Kite" and "I Am Walrus before they got to "Revolution #9".

"Revolution #9" is a different story it's entirely a long collage of pre-recorded sounds, loops, samples including orchestras, crowds, movies, studio chatter and other random and assorted recordings. By the way  After Bathing At Baxter's is an interesting album in all four sides were divided into different suites. I have heard there was a story that the album changed its direction entirely after hearing Sgt. Peppers.


You still don't get the point, of course that Jefferson Airplane was influenced by the Beatles, but their "song" was the next step, and then came "Revolution 9", etc. I'm starting to wonder if you think that the Beatles invented everything and noone influenced them. Because you always mention the Beatles innovations and ignore the advances of other artists who were certainly an influence for the Beatles as well.

By the way, the Yardbirds' "Hot House Of Omagarashid" could be considered as an early sound collage as well, released in their album Roger The Engineer in 1966, before Revolver:

The Yardbirds - Hot House of Omagarashid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5CkUYJyguA#)

Now I wonder which Beatles song you will mention...
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: NYSPORTSFAN on October 31, 2013, 10:12:55 PM
You still don't get the point, of course that Jefferson Airplane was influenced by the Beatles, but their "song" was the next step, and then came "Revolution 9", etc. I'm starting to wonder if you think that the Beatles invented everything and noone influenced them. Because you always mention the Beatles innovations and ignore the advances of other artists who were certainly an influence for the Beatles as well.

By the way, the Yardbirds' "Hot House Of Omagarashid" could be considered as an early sound collage as well, released in their album Roger The Engineer in 1966, before Revolver:

The Yardbirds - Hot House of Omagarashid ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5CkUYJyguA#[/url])

Now I wonder which Beatles song you will mention...


The problem is  "Hot House Of Omagarashid" is not a sound collage and I have not ignored what other rock musicians were doing. It's my opinion The Beatles were just more forward thinking and I am hardly the one who thinks that. When I say sound collage  in rock music I meant sound collages of live looping/sampling like "Tomorrow Never Knows" or  sampling like "I Am The Walrus". Now allegedly Stockhausen did these things but he wasn't thinking in terms of mixing these techniques with songwriting right.

Maybe the Jefferson Airplane song you mentioned was the next step forward to "Revolution #9" which I don't agree with maybe listen to the techniques both bands were using but the facts are Beatles were using sound collages in a rock context before them. I would actually compare what The Airplane did with what Frank Zappa Lump Gravy.
Title: Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
Post by: Hombre_de_ningun_lugar on November 01, 2013, 12:17:30 AM
The problem is  "Hot House Of Omagarashid" is not a sound collage and I have not ignored what other rock musicians were doing. It's my opinion The Beatles were just more forward thinking and I am hardly the one who thinks that. When I say sound collage  in rock music I meant sound collages of live looping/sampling like "Tomorrow Never Knows" or  sampling like "I Am The Walrus". Now allegedly Stockhausen did these things but he wasn't thinking in terms of mixing these techniques with songwriting right.

Maybe the Jefferson Airplane song you mentioned was the next step forward to "Revolution #9" which I don't agree with maybe listen to the techniques both bands were using but the facts are Beatles were using sound collages in a rock context before them. I would actually compare what The Airplane did with what Frank Zappa Lump Gravy.

I think the point is not to make a comparison about which was the most experimental band, I think that's quite subjective, but if you think that the Beatles were more forward thinking I have no problem with that. My problem with your discourse is that when I mention something some band did before the Beatles, you say that the Beatles went further, and when I say that some band went further at something, you say that the Beatles did it first. The Beatles' popularity also allowed them to make their advances more notorious than other bands, but I don't mean to put the Fab Four down, they are still my very favorite band, but I don't like when those influences the Beatles had from other bands are ignored. It doesn't stain their image, just talks about their open minds to capture the new sounds in the musical ambient. The Beatles was the most important band, but without the contributions of the other bands, the musical revolution wouldn't have been possible.

With regard to the sound collage, that's an endless discussion because it depends on other previous influences. For example, the guitar playing in "Eight Miles High" is not a sound collage, but the feeling of randomness is still there, and it wouldn't be strange that the idea of the weird random sounds of "Tomorrow Never Knows" came from that song. (Note: "Eight Miles High" was released as a single in March 1966 and "Tomorrow Never Knows" was recorded in April 1966.)