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Author Topic: Beatles as innovators  (Read 17602 times)

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Musicfan67

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2010, 05:03:40 AM »

the 'i hear a new world' track that reminded me of 'tomorrow never knows'
wasn't the title track that hello goodbye posted, it was this one:

Joe Meek (The Blue Men) - The Bublight
it starts with guitar feedback fading in just like tomornevknos and then turns into a tribal drone. it even has the same 'haunted house' piano you hear at the end of tomorrow never knows and its playing a kind if atonal indian melody over the droning bass-
-
. . .  like a raga. then the hawaiian guitar comes in bending notes into semitones like a raga . .
ok, i didnt listen to the whole thing when i made my first comparison- just the beginning . . . now im going further and comparing this to classical indian music (ragas).
so im changing my comparison from tomorrow never knows to within you and without you ! haha  ha2ha
seriously though - this track is growing on me as background music !




The sound that starts on “Tomorrow Never Knows” is the drone of tamboura an Indian instrument being looped it’s not guitar feedback. There is no guitar feedback at the start of the Joe Meek song you are talking about. Both songs are not alike. “Tomorrow Never Knows” is based harmonically from Indian music. There is no guitar fiffs and the ony guitar you hear is a backward guitar solo another innovation.  The song dispenses with chord changes depending on your point of view added on top of it is layered sampled loops with the bass and drum being repetitive and up-front like what you hear a lot in today’s music. As for guitar feedback many will say the Beatles “I Feel Fine” is the first pop song to feature intentional guitar feedback as part of the songwriting process.

As comparison to “Within You Without You” there nothing alike. The Beatles song is a total fusion of Classical Indian music with western strings in the spirit of psychedelic music. I always like Joe Meek but the song is nothing like the Beatles track at all in sound, instrumentation and in rhythm.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 05:13:03 AM by Musicfan67 »
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nyfan(41)

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2010, 05:14:22 AM »

Ive often wondered, was there a hit song with a reggea beat before Obla Di ?
-
nimrod -- check out the song i posted in the various artists section by georgie fame (yeh yeh)
i looked him up and it seems he used to hang out and play in alot of west indian clubs and he was heavily ska influenced.
he had a jamaican trumpet player in his band at one point
if you check the offbeat of his keys,, the syncopated drum . . and the jazz solo on the sax.... it's straight ska
-
-
as to the beatles reggae ska moment- i prefer john's take on a caribbean accent when he says "delivah de lettah di soonah di bettah" in please mr postman!  ha2ha

but for a big hit i can immediately think of 'my boy lollipop"
millie small who sings it is jamaican and the arranger is skatalites legend ernie ranglin who plays guitar on it
-
earlier than that - a calypso beat hit 1945 . the andrew sisters with the morey amsterdam owned song (yes, of dick van dyke show).......
rum and cococolaa
-
hmm,,,, i wonder what the origins of 'louie louie' are. the words are about a boat trip to jamaica and some of the words are in patois . .

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Musicfan67

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2010, 05:23:01 AM »

-
nimrod -- check out the song i posted in the various artists section by georgie fame (yeh yeh)
i looked him up and it seems he used to hang out and play in alot of west indian clubs and he was heavily ska influenced.
he had a jamaican trumpet player in his band at one point
if you check the offbeat of his keys,, the syncopated drum . . and the jazz solo on the sax.... it's straight ska
-
-
as to the beatles reggae ska moment- i prefer john's take on a caribbean accent when he says "delivah de lettah di soonah di bettah" in please mr postman!  ha2ha

but for a big hit i can immediately think of 'my boy lollipop"
millie small who sings it is jamaican and the arranger is skatalites legend ernie ranglin who plays guitar on it
-
earlier than that - a calypso beat hit 1945 . the andrew sisters with the morey amsterdam owned song (yes, of dick van dyke show).......
rum and cococolaa
-
hmm,,,, i wonder what the origins of 'louie louie' are. the words are about a boat trip to jamaica and some of the words are in patois . .



Again in the rock world this is an early example. “Obla Obli Da” was an influence on the Police using reggae with rock. Sting called the track an early example White Reggae.

The Beatles used a ska beat as early as "I Call Your Name" in 1964. "I Call Your Name" on April 10, 1964, on the US LP The Beatles' Second Album (putting it on a British ... The insistent pounding beat, the electric 12-string guitar, the unexpected ska-tempoed instrumental break. O
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nyfan(41)

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2010, 05:31:56 AM »

no musicfan67, i disagree with you
i listened again to tomorrow never knows and yeah its not a guitar
and the instrument that opens the joe meek song is i dont know what processed through effects
but they do kick in similarly
-
they have many similarities to me. they fade in and hit a one note drone similar . . and the piano has a similar echo to the one at the end of tmr nvr knws
so i definitely still draw a comparison - not identical, but having some similar elements
-
 about wthn u an wthout u - if u see i wrote haha - my actual comparison was to indian ragas in general of which i've listened to many
-
in fact, let me go listen again -  i probably soon hear a third thing  ha2ha
-
-
 ;sorry okay, youre gonna hate me for this musicfan . .
but i have two windows open and im playing tomorrow never knows and the joe meek song ontop of one another superimposed at the same volume
 ha2ha ha2ha ha2ha ha2ha ;yes
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Musicfan67

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2010, 05:52:46 AM »

The sound that starts on “Tomorrow Never Knows” is the drone of tamboura a Indian instrument being looped it’s not guitar feedback. “Tomorrow Never Knows” is a one or two chord vamp. The songs are nothing alike in musical terms. The Beatles song is so much a modernistic electronic song that even bands like the Chemical Brothers and Beck have based whole songs on it. “Tomorrow Never Knows” again is based harmonically on Indian music. The things you hear fading in out on “Tomorrow Never Knows” are layered loops and organ drones. No one calls Joe Meek song a proto drum and bass song or a proto-techno song. Come on Joe Meek was innovative but please there nothing alike. I mean I can find some relation to "Johnny B. Good" to "Helter Skelter" because both songs have guitars but that where it ends. Have you actually the drum and bass sound on "Tomorrow Never Knows" in comparison to the Joe Meek track? I'm starting to wonder if this is a anti-Beatles forum.

Whatever the instrument that starts the Joe Meek song is not an Indian instrument. Hawaiian music was popular in Joe Meek time was popular so I am not surprised to hear that influence on the track.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 05:59:52 AM by Musicfan67 »
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nyfan(41)

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2010, 06:53:01 AM »

1960
Joe Meek (The Blue Men) - The Bublight


1966
The Beatles - Tomorrow Never Knows

 :-\ ;D
-
im not saying the beatles borrowed from or even heard this particular song
but ther are similar elements in the songs.
such as they both are just one chord (with only the root note and the fifth being played) for the whole song
with a major third note then being established at times by the melody
. . . spacey studio effects
 . . . and a primal percussive beat

 . . and an indian sound
as to the indian sound/comparison:
as i mention, the entire joe meek song has a bass drone of the one and five note (tonic or fifth) as is heard in indian ragas-
also, the melody being played feels like it's in a different key than the bass note because of which notes land on which part of the beat - making the music sound modal

that type of melodic phrase that's repeated over and over and then joined by the other instruments is something that defines a classical indian raga
..
then when the hawaiian guitar comes in at the end and bends notes, it creates semitones - the notes in between the notes of a western scale. that's another distinguishing characteristic of classical indian music
.
i guess the similarities i hear can be far fetched.
because when i hear that meek track and tomorrow never knows i'm reminded of
Bismillah Khan - Rag Lalith
  ;D

i'd be curious to know if anyone else hears ANY similarities even in the mood or vibe of these 2 3 selections


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An Apple Beatle

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2010, 08:16:39 AM »

Ive often wondered, was there a hit song with a reggea beat before Obla Di ?

"The ska craze spread to London in the late 1950’s and early 1960’s and in the United Kingdom ska soon came to be labelled bluebeat. This music would probably have remained a mere curiosity were it not for the efforts of a white Anglo-Jamaican of aristocratic lineage named Chris Blackwell. As a hobby-like business venture he had set up a small scale distribution network for ethnic records but he had a vision about the potential appeal of Jamaica’s oscillating answer to the blues. In 1962 Blackwell took his tiny Blue Mountain/Island label to England, purchased master tapes produced in Kingston and released them in Britain on Black Swan, Jump Up, Sue and the parent label Island. Initial artists included Jimmy Cliff, the Skatalites and Bob Marley. "

As I think I read....My Boy Lollipop is considered the 1st big hit in the UK in '64. I also love Ernest Ranglin's 'Surfin. 'Simmer Down' was the Wailers first release in late 63.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 08:20:26 AM by An Apple Beatle »
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Kevin

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2010, 09:55:32 AM »

Just to address afew of the points raised.
But first maybe I'm victim of my wording. Maybe I should have said "Beatles as inventors." It is my response to people saying they invented this genre or that genre. Yes they were innovative, but so were loads of other artists.
Look at the Pepper thing - yes, The Beatles added to the genre. But so did other bands. Even coming up with a straight answer to "what is the first concept album" is near impossible to answer. So many acts were adding to the genre. The Beatles came up with perculiar time signatures, but so did other bands (The byrds for instance.)


“classical (yesterday/eleanor) . . use of classical in a pop format anyway..”

There have been strings on pop since pop first started. Check out Buddy Holly. The Beatles did do it so much better.

“indian music - - george on love you to thru within u without u”
Both the Kinks and The Byrds had used Indian influences before. Yes, George was the first to take it to it’s extreme (and the jury is out on whether this was a good thing.) But it was an idea already conceived.

“hard hard rock - -(helter skelter) . . this is indeed a hard track”
It is indeed, but there had been hard tracks before. (The Who for instance.) It wasn’t a new idea. Just that the Beatles did it better.

“Do you even know why the Byrds went electric in the first place?”
Yes, but they didn’t invent guitar rock, they just did it better than everyone else. Influencing isn’t the same as inventing.

“First get your facts straight? Freak Out was recorded in 1966. Freak Out is not a medley but Abbey Road is. Freak Out is not even the first concept album period. So you can innovate or expand on something. You think Jimi Hendrix invented feedback and distortion?2

But there’s a medley on it, just like there’s a medley on Abbey Road. But The Beatles one is much better. No, Freak Out wasn’t the first concept album, nor was Pepper.
No, I don’t think Hendrix invented feedback. Many people had a hand in that (Link Wray for example.) The feedback on I Feel Fine was part of a general trend in manipulating electronic sound.

“Also the structure of Sgt Pepper is what influenced later concept albums. The tracks faded in with loops, the introductory song and then it is reprised at the end followed up with encore.”
Yes, The Beatles added to the art of concept albums. But the idea of “album as a story” wasn’t invented by them.

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Kevin

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2010, 10:20:43 AM »

im not saying the beatles borrowed from or even heard this particular song
but ther are similar elements in the songs.
such as they both are just one chord (with only the root note and the fifth being played) for the whole song
with a major third note then being established at times by the melody
. . . spacey studio effects
 . . . and a primal percussive beat

 . . and an indian sound

Agreed. The crucial point is that putting distorted or maipulated electronic sounds on a pop record wasn't a new idea in 1966. Yes, The Beatles did it exceptionally well, yes The beatles added their own additions to the sounds (backwards tapes etc) but so did other acts. It was part of a general trend, with different acts adding different aspects.
My arguement is that The Beatles contributed to the idea (in glorious fashion) but didn't invent it.
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Kevin

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2010, 10:56:39 AM »

album cover as art/lyrics included/concept album - sgt pepper


Velvrt Undergrounds first album (March 1966) has art work by an established artist on the cover. Didn't have any real impact because they weren't as famous as The Beatles.
Though no one doubts that The Beatles, through their immense fame, made the idea popular.
I'll give the lyrics then, though bare in mind no one could do this before because music publishers wouldn't allow it (to protect sales of lyric books)
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Kevin

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2010, 11:00:39 AM »

to me the real innovation by the beatles was that they were the first really popular act wher the artist wrote the songs, played the instruments and sang the songs
-
no songwriters, studio musicians behind the scenes. in my opinion that set the standard and changed everything

Uhm Buddy Holly and The Crickets? The Beach Boys? Certainly, when The Beatles became immensley popular, they made this format the respected face of pop/rock. But again, it's not an idea they concieved.
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Kevin

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2010, 11:14:49 AM »

Rock Music which is a popular form of music is really a synthesis of established past styles.

Actually "A Day in the Life" is the first rock song that I know that uses a full symphony orchestra.

The Beatles (Rubber Soul) 1965 Brian Wilson cited it as an inspiration for "Pet Sounds." This was where rock became a true art form. They incorporated different time signatures, new instruments, and other musical styles. This album also uses the studio as an instrument before Pet Sounds.

Yes, The Beatles could afford a bigger orchestra than every one else. Spector just overdubbed loads of musicians, but the idea was the same.
You don't think Spector and Meek used the studio as an instrument?
You think Rubber Soul was the first album to have an eclectic collection of styles? Dylans March 1965 Bring It All Back Home (as just one example)has an eclectic collection of styles. I'm sure I could dig up more. Again, people noticed when The Beatles did it because they were famous.
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Kevin

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2010, 11:31:23 AM »

Finally. What inspired me to think about this. I read a book about science, where someone talked about how scientific breakthroughs tend to get accreditted to Euraka moments by one person - Newton and the apple, Gallillao and the cannon balls, Einstein and E=MC2. But the truth (this man reckons) is much more mundane - the breakthroughs were really accumalations of lots of peoples ideas and actions, with one person, through their fame or skill at publicity, would be given the sole credit by the public. I think music, like everything else, works the same.
Logic (and the power of big numbers) means The beatles can't be responsible for inventing everything we see in pop music today (but can be for contributing to it, and popularising it.)
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Musicfan67

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2010, 01:55:07 PM »

Yes, The Beatles could afford a bigger orchestra than every one else. Spector just overdubbed loads of musicians, but the idea was the same.
You don't think Spector and Meek used the studio as an instrument?
You think Rubber Soul was the first album to have an eclectic collection of styles? Dylans March 1965 Bring It All Back Home (as just one example)has an eclectic collection of styles. I'm sure I could dig up more. Again, people noticed when The Beatles did it because they were famous.

And Bob Dylan wasn't famous? Didn't he say the Beatles were leading the direction of where music had to go. The Beatles partially influenced Bob Dylan to go electric in the first place. You think people noticed the Beatles just because they were famous. Read this.

What sparked that original creative spark that
became prog rock?
Bill Buford:
The Beatles. They broke down every barrier that ever existed. Suddenly you could do anything after The Beatles. You could write your own music, make it ninety yards long, put it in 7/4, whatever you wanted.

Robert Fripp on Sgt Pepper
Robert Fripp- "When I was 20, I worked at a hotel in a dance orchestra, playing weddings, bar-mitzvahs, dancing, cabaret. I drove home and I was also at college at the time. Then I put on the radio (Radio Luxemburg) and I heard this music. It was terrifying. I had no idea what it was. Then it kept going. Then there was this enormous whine note of strings. Then there was this colossal piano chord. I discovered later that I'd come in half-way through Sgt. Pepper, played continuously. My life was never the same again".


Brian Wilson of the Beach Boys
"Upon first hearing Rubber Soul in December of 1965, Brian Wilson said, “I really wasn’t quite ready for the unity. It felt like it all belonged together. Rubber Soul was a collection of songs…that somehow went together like no album ever made before".


Pete Townshend of the Who     
"In a 1967 interview Pete Townshend of the Who commented "I think "Eleanor Rigby" was a very important musical move forward. It certainly inspired me to write and listen to things in that vein



I never said that Spector and Joe Meek didn't use the studio as an instrument. The Beatles version of it which was different than both of them influenced many musicians. Are you crazy Dylan Bring It All Back Home musically was still steeped in traditional popular forms of music and how it was recorded. Rubber Soul was an album musically, lyrically and the studio was as one. The music they actually were experimenting with was going beyond the conventions of the normal pop music at the time. Take "Norwegian Wood" it uses non blue modality  the verse is written in E Mixolydian and the bridge is written E Dorian.
 
 
From a musicology standpoint, a lot of their music actually is quite interesting and complex in terms of the pop idiom. How many bands do you know that can make a pop song with crazy time changes like 11/8 to 4/4 to 7/8 without anybody noticing? ("Here Comes the Sun") Or the clever harmonization of the refrain of "Eight Days a Week" where the first half is in parallel fourths/fifth (giving it a kind of weird, haunting, open sound), while the second half resolves to the more usual sixths? Or the subtle changes in the drum rhythm of "Ticket to Ride" where Ringo goes from triplets against the beat in the first couple of verses to straight eights towards the end? Or that beautiful, crazy chord that opens "A Hard Day's Night?" I mean, in almost every single original song of theirs, I can find some interesting and original that plays against the expectation of the pop songwriting idiom. And the most beautiful thing about it is that they do it so naturally, you don't even notice.

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Musicfan67

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2010, 02:00:05 PM »

Uhm Buddy Holly and The Crickets? The Beach Boys? Certainly, when The Beatles became immensley popular, they made this format the respected face of pop/rock. But again, it's not an idea they concieved.

The Beach Boys had session musicians play the instruments they were suppose to play all the time like Carol Kaye playing bass on Pet Sounds. Buddy Holly and the Cricketts yeah wrote and played their songs but the Beatles were not Johnny and the Beatles right? Get the concept.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 03:20:08 PM by Musicfan67 »
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Musicfan67

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2010, 02:04:25 PM »

Velvrt Undergrounds first album (March 1966) has art work by an established artist on the cover. Didn't have any real impact because they weren't as famous as The Beatles.
Though no one doubts that The Beatles, through their immense fame, made the idea popular.
I'll give the lyrics then, though bare in mind no one could do this before because music publishers wouldn't allow it (to protect sales of lyric books)

Get your facts straight again. The Velvet Underground was released in 1967 not 1966. Even with that there has been cover art before that. Rubber Soul has one of the first psychedelic influenced album covers in rock music as it is.

Yes go knock the Beatles for the lyrics on the album cover due to money.
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Musicfan67

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2010, 02:45:55 PM »

Just to address afew of the points raised.
But first maybe I'm victim of my wording. Maybe I should have said "Beatles as inventors." It is my response to people saying they invented this genre or that genre. Yes they were innovative, but so were loads of other artists.
Look at the Pepper thing - yes, The Beatles added to the genre. But so did other bands. Even coming up with a straight answer to "what is the first concept album" is near impossible to answer. So many acts were adding to the genre. The Beatles came up with perculiar time signatures, but so did other bands (The byrds for instance.)


“classical (yesterday/eleanor) . . use of classical in a pop format anyway..”

There have been strings on pop since pop first started. Check out Buddy Holly. The Beatles did do it so much better.

“indian music - - george on love you to thru within u without u”
Both the Kinks and The Byrds had used Indian influences before. Yes, George was the first to take it to it’s extreme (and the jury is out on whether this was a good thing.) But it was an idea already conceived.

“hard hard rock - -(helter skelter) . . this is indeed a hard track”
It is indeed, but there had been hard tracks before. (The Who for instance.) It wasn’t a new idea. Just that the Beatles did it better.

“Do you even know why the Byrds went electric in the first place?”
Yes, but they didn’t invent guitar rock, they just did it better than everyone else. Influencing isn’t the same as inventing.

“First get your facts straight? Freak Out was recorded in 1966. Freak Out is not a medley but Abbey Road is. Freak Out is not even the first concept album period. So you can innovate or expand on something. You think Jimi Hendrix invented feedback and distortion?2

But there’s a medley on it, just like there’s a medley on Abbey Road. But The Beatles one is much better. No, Freak Out wasn’t the first concept album, nor was Pepper.
No, I don’t think Hendrix invented feedback. Many people had a hand in that (Link Wray for example.) The feedback on I Feel Fine was part of a general trend in manipulating electronic sound.

“Also the structure of Sgt Pepper is what influenced later concept albums. The tracks faded in with loops, the introductory song and then it is reprised at the end followed up with encore.”
Yes, The Beatles added to the art of concept albums. But the idea of “album as a story” wasn’t invented by them.




Ok let’s start this again. 

There is no medley on Freak Out having songs connected by hard edits doesn’t make it a medley. Actually the so-called Abbey Road Medley technically is not a medley. It’s a bunch of small fragment of songs comprises eight songs that are performed in a specific sequence in two large sections without breaks  It differs also because the songs are not lyrically tied to each other unlike a concept album or a opera. In the realm of opera (both "classic" and "rock") you find a musical approach that is very similar to the Abbey Road_ sequence), but the opera form is able to lean as heavily as it needs to upon a story line thread to enhance its musical sense of continuity; this as true in "Tommy" as it is in "Marriage of Figaro." By contrast, the extent to which the Abbey Road medley is relatively abstract at the level of its lyrics is a point worth emphasizing. So yeah the Beatles basically invented a hybrid of a songwriting style.

Oh yeah Buddy Holly used strings but did he used it in the way of “Eleanor Rigby” or “I Am the Walrus” well no. Did Phil Spector layer strings with synthesizers like the Beatles do on “Here Comes the Sun”?

Odd Time signatures have been around forever do you know music theory. The Beatles used odd time signatures before the Byrds so I guess that makes the Byrds less innovative right?  Then again the Beatles used in ways no rock artist used it before. For example by the use of Rhythmic modulation may occur at other points in a record as well, indicating a rhythmic hook. In the Beatles' 'We Can Work It Out', the rhythm changes from four to three during the lyric 'fussing and fighting, my friend'. Or changing meters basically in every bar on “Good Morning Good Morning”.

As for Indian music the drone foundation of Indian music was at the start of “Ticket To Ride” before the Byrds and the Kinks. Also it’s basically subjective saying whether you think it was a bad or good thing on George Harrison going further. And no it wasn’t an idea already conceived. “Eight Miles High” or “See My Friends” doesn’t use the Indian music in instrumentation, structure or in rhythm.

Who said the Beatles invented electric rock? The Byrds credit the BEATLES FOR INVENTING FOLK-ROCK AND THE USE OF THE RICKY ELECTRIC 12 STRING WHICH BECOME THE PRIMARY SOUND OF BOTH FOLK ROCK AND JANGLE POP.

Link Wray feedback? Well not really. “Helter Skelter” was inspired by a Who track they never heard of which ended up being “I Can See For Miles” which is a power pop song not a proto-metal song. What’s the point the Beatles were already in that territory on “It’s All Too Much” in May of 1967.

Who said the Beatles invented the rock concept album? The Ventures were doing it way before Frank Zappa. So according to your warped mind that makes Frank Zappa not innovative. Sgt Pepper is heralded in creating a new album structure in rock music.


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Kevin

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2010, 02:46:31 PM »

Get your facts straight again. The Velvet Underground was released in 1967 not 1966. Even with that there has been cover art before that. Rubber Soul has one of the first psychedelic influenced album covers in rock music as it is.

Yes go knock the Beatles for the lyrics on the album cover due to money.

Sorry typo - I meant 67. But the point was an album with an art rock cover had been released before Pepper. I don't know if the Velvets were the first, that's not my point.
Don't get the money thing. Apparently the law changed.
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Musicfan67

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2010, 03:02:44 PM »

1960
Joe Meek (The Blue Men) - The Bublight

1966
The Beatles - Tomorrow Never Knows
 :-\ ;D
-
im not saying the beatles borrowed from or even heard this particular song
but ther are similar elements in the songs.
such as they both are just one chord (with only the root note and the fifth being played) for the whole song
with a major third note then being established at times by the melody
. . . spacey studio effects
 . . . and a primal percussive beat

 . . and an indian sound
as to the indian sound/comparison:
as i mention, the entire joe meek song has a bass drone of the one and five note (tonic or fifth) as is heard in indian ragas-
also, the melody being played feels like it's in a different key than the bass note because of which notes land on which part of the beat - making the music sound modal

that type of melodic phrase that's repeated over and over and then joined by the other instruments is something that defines a classical indian raga
..
then when the hawaiian guitar comes in at the end and bends notes, it creates semitones - the notes in between the notes of a western scale. that's another distinguishing characteristic of classical indian music
.
i guess the similarities i hear can be far fetched.
because when i hear that meek track and tomorrow never knows i'm reminded of
Bismillah Khan - Rag Lalith  ;D

i'd be curious to know if anyone else hears ANY similarities even in the mood or vibe of these 2 3 selections





Again Joe Meek song is not a raga it’s influence by Hawaiian music. Drone is not exclusive to Indian music. It’s in all types of music like folk for example. The bass on “Tomorrow Never Knows” is a throbbing one note drone played on 8ths. Harmonically their nothing alike as “Tomorrow Never Knows” is based harmonically on Indian music and Tibetan chants not Hawaiian music. The song's droning harmony is built around one chord, a C major, an innovation borrowed from Indian music. The sound is a pulsing, and psychedelic.

When Joe Meek was recording this music HIS CHANGE OF SPEEDS WERE RELATED IN THE STYLE of The Chipmunks, Pinky and Perky and The Nutty Squirrels. When the Beatles were changing speeds they were altering it slightly to create surrealistic effects or psychedelic effects. Do you guys get the difference?

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Musicfan67

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2010, 03:07:15 PM »

Sorry typo - I meant 67. But the point was an album with an art rock cover had been released before Pepper. I don't know if the Velvets were the first, that's not my point.
Don't get the money thing. Apparently the law changed.

Are you crazy? The Beatles Revolver has an art-rock cover before the Velvet Underground. I am not saying the Beatles were the first in that area either. I don't know what you are trying to accomplish. No one creates music in a vacuum they all influenced each other. I will tell you this you will be hard pressed not find the Beatles influence in terms of combining studio experimentation in a strong pop structure. It even goes into modern Heavy Metal. IMO you are missing the one important element that the Beatles were doing with their experimentation is the songwriting and the actual vocals something that Joe MEEK is missing. The one thing people like Leonard Bernstein and Brian Wilson noticed about the Beatles first. 

Then you have these comments by modern rockers.

In ‘All My Loving,’ George and John are playing 16th notes the entire song,” explains Tom Higgenson of the Plain White T’s. “It’s really weird, and they keep it up in all the verse parts; it’s what makes it exciting and pushes it forward. And in ‘And Your Bird Can Sing,’ there’s that long harmonizing guitar solo part, which every heavy metal band and hard rock band does today. With Avenged Sevenfold, for instance, every solo is like that. It was one of the first songs to have the harmonized lead part driving the song.”

Dan Jacobs similarly affirms The Beatles’ totally modern approach to songwriting and guitar. “With even the most creative metal riff, the root of it has to flow nicely. You can really learn that from The Beatles—how to write a good base for a song. Take any basic Beatles song, and if you want to make it more metal, just take one of the lead vocal lines and turn it into a guitar part and speed it up. Bam, you got a monster metal riff!”

“‘Nowhere Man’ is my choice for their greatest guitar solo,” adds Atreyu’s Travis Miguel. “I played that solo for weeks, until I learned the complete solo to ‘Hotel California.’ And, of course, ‘Helter Skelter’ because the opening guitar line is raw as hell.”

Not surprisingly, when we polled our mostly hard-rock-based contributors, “Helter Skelter” took first place for most powerful Beatles track, its bludgeoning beat, heavily distorted production, and tortured vocals like some drunken banshee bashing its brains against a wall of broken glass.

“The ‘Helter Skelter’ riff is so heavy,” says Mike Schleibaum, who as guitarist in death metal band Darkest Hour knows a thing or two about heavy riffs. “It’s almost heavy metal, but it’s not. A lot of people say it’s the first heavy metal song ever written. ‘I Want You (She’s So Heavy)’ is another awesome song, with that hip guitar riff. And ‘I Feel Fine’ is awesome; it’s just a couple octaves, a simple chord progression, but it makes me want to party.

Peace

« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 03:17:55 PM by Musicfan67 »
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