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Author Topic: Beatles as innovators  (Read 19660 times)

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nimrod

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #80 on: December 11, 2010, 05:16:44 AM »

Who knows when progressive rock really started.  I think it was a movement, contributed to by many bands.  At the time, in late 1967, hearing Days of Future Passed for the first time, I knew it was something different much in the way I knew Sgt Pepper was something different a few months before. 

I first heard the term "progressive rock" a couple of years later.


I think there were obviously quite a few Art Rock albums out in the late 60's by The Moody Blues, The Nice, Pink Floyd but most classic prog fans cite In The Court Of The Crimson King (1969) as THE forst full blown prog album, I find it hard to disagree, 'Court' still stands up as the first 100% progressive Rock album and the one that defined the genre, the perfect album from start to end, it goes from frenetic to symphonic in a matter of seconds mixing elements of Jazz, Symphonic, Folk with Rock.
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nyfan(41)

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #81 on: December 11, 2010, 05:47:11 AM »

dont know if this is considered a link in the prog rock chain.... or even if it had influence on the later beatles ...
but i looked up robert moog . . (the inventor)
and it was saying how he met a classical musician in new york named walter carlos who ended up making the first moog synthesizer album in 68 called "switched on bach" its heavily multitracked and kind of intended to debut the moog as a viable instrument.
the sales were huge and the album eventually went platinum
carlos went on to release more classical electronic interpretations and did the soundtracks for clockwork orange and tron
also, walter carlos is now wendy carlos. that threw me off in my googling at first
this is a news piece on the moog .. at around the 3 minute mark it gets interesting with hints of baba oriely, prog rock and norweigan wood . . dont kno the date
BBC Archive Tomorrow's World Moog Synthesiser


and this is supposed to be like 1968's switched on bach. i dont kno if the actual album is on youtube. there are traces of abbey road here?
is it a coincidence that john admitted basing 'because' on bach??
Carlos Moog Bach ...Jesus Christus,Gottes Sohn...

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nyfan(41)

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #82 on: December 11, 2010, 06:54:53 AM »

is it a coincidence that john admitted basing 'because' on bach??

umm, ok im a dunce - he based it on beethoven  ha2ha
but still,
classical music on the moog tops the charts in '68 then john does 'because' . .
.
bytheway - never knew the monkees used moog before the beatles (67):
the moog solo kicks in at 1:26
The Monkees - Star Collector

and here too
mickey dolenz was one of the first people to buy a moog. and here he poses with it. too bad he's not that good at playing it, lol  ;sorry
The Monkees Daily Nightly


... the point is, the beatles were monkees copyists wher moog use is concerned !!!!! lol

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fanofthefab4

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #83 on: December 11, 2010, 02:27:18 PM »

can I ask, are you a fan of The Beatles Kevin ?



 >:Very good question nimrod,I often have wondered how Kevin can call himself a Beatles fan and be on a Beatles fan site and say the inaccurate and ignorant things he says about them. ??? roll:) Any true Beatles fan who is knowledgeable about them,knows their many true innovations and how truly creative,orginal and inventive they were and ahead of their time even in a lot of their early music.
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nyfan(41)

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #84 on: December 11, 2010, 03:21:38 PM »



 >:Very good question nimrod,I often have wondered how Kevin can call himself a Beatles fan and be on a Beatles fan site and say the inaccurate and ignorant things he says about them. ??? roll:) Any true Beatles fan who is knowledgeable about them,knows their many true innovations and how truly creative,orginal and inventive they were and ahead of their time even in a lot of their early music.


for real?
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Hello Goodbye

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #85 on: December 11, 2010, 10:41:40 PM »

bytheway - never knew the monkees used moog before the beatles (67)


And The Beach Boys used the Moog in 1966...Good Vibrations:

The Beach Boys - Good Vibrations live in 1966




Mike Love is seen playing the Moog Synthesizer secondary keyboard/"stretched metal band" on The Ed Sullivan Show in 1968:

THE BEACH BOYS "Good Vibrations" on The Ed Sullivan Show



Though credited as a Theremin...



Leon Theremin

...it was clearly a Moog.


Robert Moog went on to develop his own Etherwave Theremin...


 
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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #86 on: December 11, 2010, 10:48:24 PM »

By the way ;)    I bought one of the early "Signature Series" Robert Moog Etherwave Theremins (yes, he signed the top) several years ago. 




That's one tough axe to play.  I can see why Mike Love used the metal strip Moog!

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #87 on: December 11, 2010, 10:56:11 PM »

So...The Beatles copied The Monkees who copied The Beach Boys.


And they all copied Leon Theremin...

Leon Theremin playing his own instrument




 ;D

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nimrod

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #88 on: December 11, 2010, 11:06:43 PM »



 >:Very good question nimrod,I often have wondered how Kevin can call himself a Beatles fan and be on a Beatles fan site and say the inaccurate and ignorant things he says about them. ??? roll:) Any true Beatles fan who is knowledgeable about them,knows their many true innovations and how truly creative,orginal and inventive they were and ahead of their time even in a lot of their early music.

I think your right there, anyone who doubts this should ask themselves, why were they so massively popular in every coutry that sells records and has a hit parade ? why werent The Shadows or The Everleys so massive, I think the reason was that no-one had heard (or seen) anything like them, even in non English speaking countries they were just as big.
I well remember seeing them on a magazine show from Manchester, England which was on at around 6pm for the first time, I was only a kid but I was absolutely enthralled and have been a fan ever since. All other popular acts just fell by the wayside next to them and suddenly lots of Beatle copyist bands appeared.
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nyfan(41)

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #89 on: December 11, 2010, 11:09:21 PM »

@ the theramin video - > cool !

i wonder if the prevalence of the work of men like moog and theramin impacting the music world . . .
. . set the tone for the beatles to fall prey to 'magic alex'
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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #90 on: December 11, 2010, 11:37:07 PM »

Ain't no doubt!  Magic Alex really had The Beatles suckered.


I guess you can say that Leon Theremin invented the synthesizer in 1920.  He was way ahead of the times!



1924



Here he is demonstrating the Theremin in 1927...

Leon Theremin demonstrates his invention in 1927



He should have invented talking movies before he demonstrated the Theremin   ;D

« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 10:16:28 PM by Hello Goodbye »
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nyfan(41)

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #91 on: December 11, 2010, 11:49:30 PM »

Any true Beatles fan who is knowledgeable about them,knows their many true innovations and how truly creative,orginal and inventive they were and ahead of their time even in a lot of their early music.
I think your right there, anyone who doubts this should ask themselves, why were they so massively popular in every coutry that sells records and has a hit parade ? why werent The Shadows or The Everleys so massive, I think the reason was that no-one had heard (or seen) anything like them, even in non English speaking countries they were just as big.

ok, i'll respond to that
in the context of other parts of this thread and just to play devil's advocate i would say . .
-
because women were attracted to them and their charisma - which suited them to be teen idols. and that was then sold
they springboarded off of that
-
. . . they were certainly much more musically talented than any other teen idols for sure!
. . . certainly musical geniuses - as songwriters and more!
-
but for arguments sake. .  some aspects of their ascent to worldwide fame can also be compared with . . new kids on the block . .  bay city rollers....duran duran
that cut them to the front of the line, if you will, to have the world's ear for their musical accomplishments
-
in other words....
they weren't playing on a level field with ALL musicians - like a string quartet of fat bald ugly musical geniuses who girls didn't like

skeptical? - one of the most talented, creative cofounding members of the rolling stones (ian stewart) was dismissed as a member because of his looks jeopardizing the groups collective sex appeal
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nyfan(41)

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #92 on: December 11, 2010, 11:51:53 PM »

. . . and also because they were white their emulations of little richard, the isley brothers and smokey robinson had more mainstream marketability / identification factor -> then black artists of comparable musical merit
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nimrod

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #93 on: December 12, 2010, 03:28:14 AM »

Cliff & The Shadows were attractive young men, it didnt give them Shadowmania did it?

Gerry & The Pacemakers were not attractive, they even had a fat Bass player....and yet they were enormously succesful all over the world.

To me , it ALL comes down to talent, The Beatles were a hit all over the world because of theyre great songs.
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Musicfan67

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #94 on: December 12, 2010, 02:50:24 PM »

Who knows when progressive rock really started.  I think it was a movement, contributed to by many bands.  At the time, in late 1967, hearing Days of Future Passed for the first time, I knew it was something different much in the way I knew Sgt Pepper was something different a few months before.  

I first heard the term "progressive rock" a couple of years later.


Who knows who invented what but hey "Strawberry Fields Forever" a good place to start mellotron/time signature changes/multiple part song/ and diminished chords. You have to remember the Beatles were the primary influences on early Yes, Geneisis, Pink Floyd and Robert Fripp of King Crimson. I think those musicians just expanded on the elements of say a song "Strawberry Fields Forever" and the experimental aspect of the Beatles into progressive rock. That is why many consider the Beatles proto-prog they were one of the earliest influences. Of course there were others but the Beatles impact was huge on all fronts.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2010, 03:05:58 PM by Musicfan67 »
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Musicfan67

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #95 on: December 12, 2010, 03:33:18 PM »

. . . and also because they were white their emulations of little richard, the isley brothers and smokey robinson had more mainstream marketability / identification factor -> then black artists of comparable musical merit


You can say this also and I will turn it around.

Blues-rock pioneered by...Yardbirds, Cream, Led Zep?" Not exactly. All those lads were eagerly devouring records by Muddy Waters, Sonny Boy Williamson, and Robert Johnson. Waters and Williamson were already electric.

No musician pops out of a vacuum, of course. Those bands, and of course the Rolling Stones, were trying to be American blues bands, but much louder and with bigger drums. The Beatles though were steeped in Chuck Berry, Little Richard, a flock of American girl groups, country and European folk music. The Beatles weren't copycats in terms of what they were doing with their R&B and blues influences. They took those influences to places nobody had ever seen before. The Beatles were famous for contrasting blues based verses with bridges that uses musical languages that totally broke the rules of blues music like “Can’t Buy Me Love” and “You Can’t Do That” for example. “Drive My Car” obviously influenced by the R&B music of Otis Redding, they create a powerful guitar sound by doubling low guitar and bass throughout the track. By the way do you guys know Otis Redding “Sitting on the Dock of the Bay” was influenced by the Beatles.
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Musicfan67

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #96 on: December 12, 2010, 03:44:09 PM »

ok, i'll respond to that
in the context of other parts of this thread and just to play devil's advocate i would say . .
-
because women were attracted to them and their charisma - which suited them to be teen idols. and that was then sold
they springboarded off of that
-
. . . they were certainly much more musically talented than any other teen idols for sure!
. . . certainly musical geniuses - as songwriters and more!
-
but for arguments sake. .  some aspects of their ascent to worldwide fame can also be compared with . . new kids on the block . .  bay city rollers....duran duran
that cut them to the front of the line, if you will, to have the world's ear for their musical accomplishments
-
in other words....
they weren't playing on a level field with ALL musicians - like a string quartet of fat bald ugly musical geniuses who girls didn't like

skeptical? - one of the most talented, creative cofounding members of the rolling stones (ian stewart) was dismissed as a member because of his looks jeopardizing the groups collective sex appeal



Well no one thought British Rock bands would make a big impact here in America. There had been occasional hits like “Telstar” and remember Cliff Richard was basically a flop here with a few minor hits.  So the Beatles actually had a lot going against them in making an impact here. That is why when the Beatles vanguard the British Invasion it set off a major chain reaction in music. Yes, their looks had something to do with it but in the end they have become the most covered songwriters in the rock era from jazz musicians to thrash metal bands covering their songs.
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nyfan(41)

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #97 on: December 12, 2010, 04:41:00 PM »

You can say this also and I will turn it around.

Blues-rock pioneered by...Yardbirds, Cream, Led Zep?" Not exactly. All those lads were eagerly devouring plagiarizing records by Muddy Waters, Sonny Boy Williamson, and Robert Johnson. Waters and Williamson were already electric.

 ha2ha

By the way do you guys know Otis Redding “Sitting on the Dock of the Bay” was influenced by the Beatles.
-
-
wow never heard that
looked it up with otis' 'day tripper' in mind and was surprised even more to see that otis redding wrote it after listening to sgt pepper  :o and called the song an extension of the beatles music
i really wonder what specific parts of sgt pepper album influenced otis redding to write dock of the bay
day in the life? little help from my friends? getting better? shes leaving home?
i dont think i'll listen to that song the same again
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An Apple Beatle

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #98 on: December 12, 2010, 11:20:01 PM »

Wow!...Nice touch on the theramin HG.
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Hello Goodbye

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Re: Beatles as innovators
« Reply #99 on: December 13, 2010, 04:13:32 AM »

Wow!...Nice touch on the theramin HG.


Thanks, An Apple Beatle.  I'm not sure, but I think the original Leon Theremin version of the theremin is the only instrument played without touching it.  It really is difficult to play...

Theremin Lesson One



The Moog Synthesizer secondary metal strip keyboard is a whole lot easier to play.  You can see in the video I posted that Mike Love has a keyboard card mounted above the strip.  Still, he's concentrating very hard on playing the Moog while singing at the same time. 

Here's the full version:

The Beach Boys Good Vibrations. (The video's owner prevents external embedding)


So, The Beatles first used the Moog Synthesizer recording Abbey Road, three years after The Beach Boys.  Hopefully Joost will spot this thread.  I'm sure he can comment further on The Beach Boys' use of the Moog Synthesizer.
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