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Author Topic: Half a Century ago, but still undated...  (Read 2065 times)

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Xose

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Half a Century ago, but still undated...
« on: February 23, 2011, 07:31:36 PM »

These famous photos should have to be taken at some point between end March 1961 and beginning July 1961..., correct??

What probably is the most famous electric bass guitar in the whole history appears there for the first time.

Two of the people appearing at those photos are still alive*.

A lot have been told about them, but still we don't know the very date when those historical photos were taken.

On one unknown day before beginning July 2011 will be the 50th anniversary of those photos...

It's a pitty that the real date hasn't surfaced..., isn't it??

Xosé

* What about waiters, audience, photographer...??
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Xose

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Re: Half a Century ago, but still undated...
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2011, 07:35:17 PM »

BTW, have a look at Sutcliffe's strap hanging by his right leg:



The older one is no more there...  ???

Xosé
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Xose

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Re: Half a Century ago, but still undated...
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2011, 07:55:25 PM »

1) Salary receipt for The Beatles and Tony Sheridan for seven days' work at the Top Ten Club, Hamburg, June 10th-16th, 1961. Sutcñiffe is STILL playing bass with them by 16 June 1961.



2) McCartney at interview with Tony Bacon, 30 November 1994: "...Stu lent me his bass for a week or so..."

3) Recording sessions at Friedrich Ebert Halle, 22-23 June 1961. Sutcliffe is NOT there playing bass.

4) Recording contract amongst JL, PM, GH & PB, on one side, and Bert Kämpfert, on the other side, come into effect on 1 July 1961 and remained in force until 30 June 1962*. Sutcliffe DIDN'T sign the contract:













So..., what??  ???

Xosé

* Reproduced from The Beatles with Tony Sheridan, Beatle Bop - Hamburg Days, Bear Family Records, 2001, pp. 12-17.
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Bobber

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Re: Half a Century ago, but still undated...
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2011, 09:26:58 AM »

Just some thoughts here, Xose.

Stuart is getting paid for this week. There's stories tho that he just sat in at times. But it's indeed very likely that, because he played a full week, he was still playing bass at June 16th, 1961. You can see Paul's bass on the picture as well, which should mean that at times there were TWO bassplayers in the band?

The conclusion from your statements is that Stuart did resign somewhere between the 16th and 23rd June, 1961. Paul already did play bass then. I believe there is not an exact date tho on which Stuart actually left the band, but think more of it as a period in which he sometimes joined them or did not join them on stage. I think it was pretty clear to all of them that Stuart would no longer be a permanent member of the band and that Paul was taking over on bass. That happened in the Spring of 1961. It would be an interesting thought tho if these pictures were taken for the occasion of Stu's last performance with the Beatles.
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Xose

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Re: Half a Century ago, but still undated...
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2011, 09:45:46 AM »

Hello Bobber,

...Stuart is getting paid for this week. There's stories tho that he just sat in at times. But it's indeed very likely that, because he played a full week, he was still playing bass at June 16th, 1961. You can see Paul's bass on the picture as well, which should mean that at times there were TWO bassplayers in the band?..

Or perhaps those photos were taken after Stu left the band. As you can see, at some of those photos they are not really playing, aonly posing. I guess Stu paid a visit to them at the Top Ten and posed with them for the photo session.

Besides: would McCartney have been purchased a bass if Stu was still with them?? I don't think so...

If Stu was still playing with them by 16 June 1961, I don't think McCartney would have been purchased a bass. So, according to those sources, McCartney had to purchase the bass at some point between 16 June 1961 and beginning July 1961, when they returned back to Liverpool (=when did they returned back to Liverpool??...)

And this puts over the table another question: which bass did really McCartney use for the Polydor recordings?? (=22-23 June...)

...The conclusion from your statements is that Stuart did resign somewhere between the 16th and 23rd June, 1961. Paul already did play bass then. I believe there is not an exact date tho on which Stuart actually left the band, but think more of it as a period in which he sometimes joined them or did not join them on stage. I think it was pretty clear to all of them that Stuart would no longer be a permanent member of the band and that Paul was taking over on bass. That happened in the Spring of 1961. It would be an interesting thought tho if these pictures were taken for the occasion of Stu's last performance with the Beatles...

Again, I don't think that was the last occasion of Stu's last performance with the Beatles. He was only posing with them for the photos...

How many lefties 500/1 did Höfner produce in the first half of 1961?? I guess not many. Where and when did they send to??

That is the question...

Xosé
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 09:48:13 AM by Xose »
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Bobber

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Re: Half a Century ago, but still undated...
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2011, 09:49:14 AM »

I'll have a look in Jurgen Vollmer's book later today. Maybe he names some dates.
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Xose

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Re: Half a Century ago, but still undated...
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2011, 11:21:19 AM »

Hello Bobber,

I'll have a look in Jurgen Vollmer's book later today. Maybe he names some dates.

No: I'm afraid he doesn't give any dates for those photos...

BTW: according to Erik Krasker, The Beatles. Fact and Fiction. 1960-1962, Biarritz, Séguier, 2009, p. 41 & footnote 95, The Beatles arrived in Hamburg for their second saty on 29 March 1961 (=Sutcliffe had left Liverpool by 15 March...) and remained there until 2 July 1961. The source used by Krasker is the stamp dates at Lennon passport...

Xosé
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Bobber

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Re: Half a Century ago, but still undated...
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2011, 09:45:16 AM »

The picture you posted is interesting, because Paul's Hofner is on the picture as well, right beside Stu. So that means that Paul had the Hofner while Stu was still in the band, or that there was a period in which Stu played occasionly.
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Xose

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Re: Half a Century ago, but still undated...
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2011, 08:32:52 PM »

The picture you posted is interesting, because Paul's Hofner is on the picture as well, right beside Stu. So that means that Paul had the Hofner while Stu was still in the band, or that there was a period in which Stu played occasionly.

In my opinion, McCartney was already the bass player when those photos were taken because..., why should he have purchased the bass if Sutcliffe was still the bass player??

Said that, I think Sutcliffe is there only to pose for the photos (="...Hi folks!! I came here to pay a visit a play a little bit with you, remembering the old times...")

I don't think McCartney purchased the bass if Sutcliffe were still in...

Xosé
« Last Edit: March 13, 2011, 09:23:46 AM by Xose »
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Bobber

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Re: Half a Century ago, but still undated...
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2011, 12:31:16 PM »

My thoughts exactly. Until you came up with the receipt of Stu getting paid for a full week performance in June.
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Xose

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Re: Half a Century ago, but still undated...
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2011, 12:48:19 PM »

My thoughts exactly. Until you came up with the receipt of Stu getting paid for a full week performance in June.

Think about another scenary:

Sutcliffe plays with them until 16 June and Macca purchases the bass AFTER 16 june... ;D

Xosé
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Bobber

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Re: Half a Century ago, but still undated...
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2011, 12:57:13 PM »

That should mean that this picture was taken after 16 June.
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Xose

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Re: Half a Century ago, but still undated...
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2011, 01:09:18 PM »

That should mean that this picture was taken after 16 June.

Correct!!  ;D

And this should also mean that Macca purchased his first 500/1 between 16 June and 2 July 1961...

Xosé
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Xose

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Re: Half a Century ago, but still undated...
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2011, 09:12:30 AM »

We can narrow the dates a little bit. A copy of Polydor contract has surfaced recently and is dated 19 June 1961:



See here: The Beatles' first contract to be auctioned, 10 April 2011...

Half a century next Sunday...  roll:)

Xosé
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Xose

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Re: Half a Century ago, but still undated...
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2011, 09:17:41 AM »

McCartney's 19th. birthday was on 18 June 1961, and he was in Hamburg by then..., correct??

Xosé
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Badgirl66

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Re: Half a Century ago, but still undated...
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2011, 11:11:52 AM »

McCartney's 19th. birthday was on 18 June 1961, and he was in Hamburg by then..., correct??

Xosé



Yep she played in the Top Ten Club



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