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Author Topic: Things the Beatles were beaten  (Read 8876 times)

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Hombre_de_ningun_lugar

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Things the Beatles were beaten
« on: April 07, 2011, 03:53:45 AM »

We all know the Beatles are famous for probably being the most innovative band of the 60's, being the first in many things. On the other side, which things do you think the Beatles were beaten by other artists, converting them in imitators rather than being imitated?

I think the Beatles were beaten in psychedelia by the Byrds and the Yardbirds with their respective songs "Eight Miles High" and "Shapes Of Things", both released in March 1966.
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peterbell1

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Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2011, 08:15:26 AM »

We all know the Beatles are famous for probably being the most innovative band of the 60's, being the first in many things. On the other side, which things do you think the Beatles were beaten by other artists, converting them in imitators rather than being imitated?

I think the Beatles were beaten in psychedelia by the Byrds and the Yardbirds with their respective songs "Eight Miles High" and "Shapes Of Things", both released in March 1966.

The Beatles weren't a great live band by the time they stopped touring, so many bands could claim to be better than them. My favourite live band of the late '60s is The Who.
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Joost

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Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2011, 09:25:23 AM »

On the other side, which things do you think the Beatles were beaten by other artists, converting them in imitators rather than being imitated?

The Beach Boys were definately ahead of The Beatles when it came to vocal harmonies, and innovative chord progressions.
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Jai Guru Deva.

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Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2011, 10:58:44 AM »

I get practically attacked all the time at university with "why did the Beatles think they were so much better than everyone else?"  "Why did The Beatles always HAVE to be the first and the best at everything?"  "Why couldn't they just stop trying so hard?"  It drives me INSANE!   :o
They didn't HAVE to be the best and the first to do everything, in fact most things were just coincidence or happy accident.  For example, when they were the first British pop act to use a sitar on a record, that was pretty much pure fluke.  I've studied it, and multiple bands were experimenting with sitars before them, including The Kinks.  They just didn't know how to record the sitar because it was a foreign concept, so they couldn't get a good enough sound to put on the record, so it got left out.  The Beatles were just lucky that they had a good team behind them to record it.
In fact, I agree quite a lot with your Beach Boys point, Joost.  The Beatles had some wonderful vocal harmonies, but The Beach Boys' were much more complex and they were consistent with it, too.  Not knocking our boys though, of course!  :)

xxx
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7 of 13

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Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2011, 04:37:43 PM »

We all know the Beatles are famous for probably being the most innovative band of the 60's, being the first in many things. On the other side, which things do you think the Beatles were beaten by other artists, converting them in imitators rather than being imitated?

I think the Beatles were beaten in psychedelia by the Byrds and the Yardbirds with their respective songs "Eight Miles High" and "Shapes Of Things", both released in March 1966.
it's my opinion that you are totally in thee dark on this one Hombre.. everybody was copying the beatles, exception here is the yardbirds and they were an hardcore blues band, with frequent member rotations and changes. as for eight miles high it sounds like they are copying the who there, if anything.

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Hombre_de_ningun_lugar

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Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2011, 05:51:08 PM »

it's my opinion that you are totally in thee dark on this one Hombre.. everybody was copying the beatles, exception here is the yardbirds and they were an hardcore blues band, with frequent member rotations and changes. as for eight miles high it sounds like they are copying the who there, if anything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m4r17DFQLM


Well, I think that both "Shapes Of Things" and "Eight Miles High" are the founders of psychedelia. Of course the Byrds and even the Yardbirds were heavily influenced by the Beatles, but they influenced the Beatles as well. Without Mr. Tambourine Man we wouldn't have had Rubber Soul, four instance. And "Rain", the first pyschedelic Beatles song released, sounds pretty much like "Shapes Of Things"; I think it's no coincidence that "Shapes" was released in March 1966 and "Rain" was recorded in April that same year.

About "Eight Miles High" being a copy of the Who, I can't see how. The big point of that song is the random guitar playing, inspired by Coltrane; the keyboard solo in the Zombies' "She's Not There" (from 1964) may have been an inspiration too.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2011, 05:52:57 PM by Hombre_de_ningun_lugar »
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tkitna

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Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2011, 11:39:06 PM »

Honestly, the Beatles probably werent first at anything. They just had the luxury of being extremely popular and people noticed their stuff before others got credit. Thats how I feel anyways.

Gary910

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Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2011, 11:51:38 PM »

Honestly, the Beatles probably werent first at anything.

I couldn't disagree more. They were first at a few things. True, on some things they were the first to be recognized.
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Hello Goodbye

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Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2011, 01:53:01 AM »

I couldn't disagree more. They were first at a few things.





They just put it around that they were the first at a few things.


 ;D
« Last Edit: April 08, 2011, 05:25:22 AM by Hello Goodbye »
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7 of 13

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Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2011, 06:54:18 PM »

Well, I think that both "Shapes Of Things" and "Eight Miles High" are the founders of psychedelia. Of course the Byrds and even the Yardbirds were heavily influenced by the Beatles, but they influenced the Beatles as well. Without Mr. Tambourine Man we wouldn't have had Rubber Soul, four instance. And "Rain", the first pyschedelic Beatles song released, sounds pretty much like "Shapes Of Things"; I think it's no coincidence that "Shapes" was released in March 1966 and "Rain" was recorded in April that same year.

About "Eight Miles High" being a copy of the Who, I can't see how. The big point of that song is the random guitar playing, inspired by Coltrane; the keyboard solo in the Zombies' "She's Not There" (from 1964) may have been an inspiration too.
sorry Hombre, but i tend to disagree. eight miles high was written after eight days a week, the byrds went out of their way and copied the beatles just like everyone else did in those days. i'm not saying that that is a bad thing.. as for the origins of psychedelia, beyond that that term is poorly defined... i would look to the folk rock and acid rock bands out of san franscisco during that time frame, think about the free speech movement and flower power.

 ;yes
« Last Edit: April 08, 2011, 10:34:32 PM by 7 of 13 »
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Hello Goodbye

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Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2011, 08:57:00 PM »

I think the Beatles were beaten in psychedelia by the Byrds and the Yardbirds with their respective songs "Eight Miles High" and "Shapes Of Things", both released in March 1966.

Donovan recorded Sunshine Superman in December, 1965.

Here's a recording chronology of the early days of psychedelic culture:  http://lysergia_2.tripod.com/LamaWorkshop/lamaEarlyPsychedelia.htm
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Hombre_de_ningun_lugar

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Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2011, 10:09:47 PM »

sorry Hombre, but i tend to disagree. eight miles high was written after eight days a week, the byrds went out of their way and copied the beatles just like everyone else did in those days. i'm not saying that's a bad thing.. as for the origins of psychedelia, beyond that that term is poorly defined... i would look to the folk rock and acid rock bands out of san franscisco during that time frame, think about the free speech movement and flower power.

 ;yes

Of course, I agree that the Byrds were influenced by the Beatles, even in that groundbreaking song. But the way "Eight Miles High" was recorded and played was very innovative, something the Beatles hadn't done yet.

About the origin of pychedelia, we could also name "The Word", because of the colorful lyrics, the repetitive guitar, crazy bass playing, the intrincate drumming and the hypnotic harmonium. But it would be a proto-psychedelic tune. But still the first nearly pure psychedelic songs I can think of are "Eight Miles High" and "Shapes Of Things".

As for everyone copying the Beatles, I think it was a reciprocal thing. The Beatles influenced others as others influenced the Beatles as well (Dylan, Byrds, Yardbirds, Beach Boys, etc.). As John said, the Beatles were a part of the 60's movement, not the whole movement.
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Gary910

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Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2011, 10:12:42 PM »


They just put it around that they were the first at a few things.


That was one of the funniest posts I have seen in a long time.
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Hombre_de_ningun_lugar

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Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2011, 10:18:03 PM »

Donovan recorded Sunshine Superman in December, 1965.

"Sunshine Superman" could be another proto-psychedelic song, but I wouldn't consider it pure psyschedelia. I mean, it doesn't sound that different than things heard before.

The way the guitars sound, the free drumming, dense bass and trippy lyrics in both "Eight Miles High" and "Shapes Of Things" make them the first psychedelic songs in my opinion.



« Last Edit: April 09, 2011, 12:10:56 AM by Hello Goodbye »
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Hombre_de_ningun_lugar

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Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2011, 10:29:08 PM »

Honestly, the Beatles probably werent first at anything. They just had the luxury of being extremely popular and people noticed their stuff before others got credit. Thats how I feel anyways.

I know that you already know this, but the Beatles were the first rock band that used intended feed back in record ("I Feel Fine"), sitar (at least in a prominent rock record, "Norwegian Wood"), fuzz bass ("Think For Yourself"), tape loops (piano recorded at half-speed and played at double-speed in "In My Life"), backwards sounds (vocals in "Rain"; guitar in "I'm Only Sleeping"), Sgt. Pepper's was the first rock album where the songs blend into each other with no breaks, etc. Maybe someone did those things before the Beatles and we (or I) don't know, but I guess that the Beatles didn't know too.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2011, 10:49:12 PM by Hombre_de_ningun_lugar »
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Hello Goodbye

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Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2011, 11:30:39 PM »

"Sunshine Superman" could be another proto-psychedelic song, but I wouldn't consider it pure psyschedelia. I mean, it doesn't sound that different than things heard before.

The way the guitars sound, the free drumming, dense bass and trippy lyrics in both "Eight Miles High" and "Shapes Of Things" make them the first psychedelic songs in my opinion.


Well, Nowhere Man, we considered Sunshine Superman psychedelic back in 1966.  And we already had the term for it.

In late 1965 Grace Slick wrote this song and performed it with The Great Society...

The Great Society White Rabbit


We called that psychedelic too.
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nimrod

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Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2011, 11:31:59 PM »

Honestly, the Beatles probably werent first at anything. They just had the luxury of being extremely popular and people noticed their stuff before others got credit. Thats how I feel anyways.

My own feeling is that you are right here tkitna, I think they obviously had a keen eye on what was happening with bands like the Fugs etc and yes they jumped on some bandwaggons (pardon the pun) ...
What made the difference though was that the beatles were the biggest band in the world so they popularised all sorts of things, I think Im right in saying that The Yardbirds tried to put sitar on a single before norwegian wood but ended up just making a guitar sound similar to a sitar, I believe it was 'Heart Full Of Soul'
Pepper was the biggie though, first gatefold sleeve, first real album artwork, first album to have lyrics printed and as Bill Brufford of Yes said;
The Beatles. They broke down every barrier that ever existed. Suddenly you could do anything after The Beatles. You could write your own music, make it ninety yards long, put it in 7/4, whatever you wanted.

Whoever was first to slow a piano down and play it through a leslie speaker......I think thats a great epitaph.
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Hello Goodbye

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Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2011, 11:50:15 PM »

I think they obviously had a keen eye on what was happening with bands like the Fugs


Cheers, nimrod!  I didn't think they were known outside the New York City area.  Here they are in 1965...

Fugs - I Couldn't Get High
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nimrod

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Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2011, 11:57:27 PM »

Ive had the Fugs albums since the 70's HG, loved them along with the Mothers, Love, Iron Butterfly etc
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Re: Things the Beatles were beaten
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2011, 12:24:42 AM »

The way the guitars sound, the free drumming, dense bass and trippy lyrics...

I think that applies to The Great Society's performance of White Rabbit.  Indeed, I feel this performance is a whole lot more psychedelic than Jefferson Airplane's.  And that was psychedelic.

Jefferson Airplane -White Rabbit-
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