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Author Topic: When did live George & Ringo at Green St. flat??  (Read 3277 times)

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Xose

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When did live George & Ringo at Green St. flat??
« on: May 17, 2011, 09:15:31 AM »

Hello,

Is this time frame known??

Thanks in advance and best wishes!! ;)

Xosé
« Last Edit: May 17, 2011, 10:40:27 AM by Xose »
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Xose

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Re: When did live George & Ringo at Green St. flat??
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2011, 10:41:12 AM »



Whaddon House or Green Street??  ???

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Xose

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Re: When did live George & Ringo at Green St. flat??
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2011, 10:58:30 AM »

Astrid Kirchherr & Max Scheler, Yesterday. The Beatles Once Upon A Time, London, Plexus, 2007, p. 6:

"...INTRODUCTION BY ASTRID KIRCHHERR
The following photographs were taken in the spring of 1964...

...We started in London, joining The Beatles making A Hard Day's Night...

...In London I stayed at Ringo and George's Green Street flat..."


  ???

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cubanheel

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Re: When did live George & Ringo at Green St. flat??
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2011, 11:51:09 AM »

?Who's in the picture?
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Xose

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Re: When did live George & Ringo at Green St. flat??
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2011, 11:53:31 AM »

?Who's in the picture?

Klaus Voormann...

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Xose

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Re: When did live George & Ringo at Green St. flat??
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2011, 12:23:04 PM »

On Anthology book Ringo & George speak of Green Street. Astrid also names Green Street. Klaus said that he lived with George and Ringo in Green Street (=that is what I'm really trying to find out: when did Klaus live with them there...)

Did they really live in Whaddon House?? If so..., when??  ???

Xosé
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peterbell1

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Re: When did live George & Ringo at Green St. flat??
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2011, 12:26:57 PM »

From what I remember, all four Beatles moved into Green Street in Autumn 1963, after spending a short time at the Hotel President when they first moved from Liverpool to London.
But I think they had all left Green Street by early 1964. John went to Knightsbridge with Cynthia and Julian (possibly in Nov 1963); Paul moved into Wimpole Street with the Ashers (late 63/early 64); and George and Ringo moved into a shared flat in Whaddon House, where Brian Epstein already had an apartment.
Perhaps Astrid Kirchherr is mistaken when she says she stayed at Green Street - maybe she meant Whaddon House?
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Badgirl66

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Re: When did live George & Ringo at Green St. flat??
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2011, 01:39:51 PM »

57 Green Street, W1.
Flat L on the fourth floor was the only place apart from hotels where all four Beatles lived together. Precise dates are not known due to secrecy, although their address was eventually discovered by fans. They moved in probably between 1 and 15 September 1963. Paul and John left by the end of November. George and Ringo then moved temporarily to flat I on the third floor but were asked to move out by their landlady Mrs Thorogood due to the noise from fans outside. They did so after their first US trip in February 64.

Whaddon House, William Mews, SW1
George and Ringo moved into flat 7 on the fourth floor in early 1964. Pattie Boyd also lived there until she and George moved to Esher in March 65 and Ringo moved to Montagu Square. They moved to WH at the recommendation of Brian Epstein, who lived in flat 15 on the 5th floor from December 63 to January 65, when he moved to 24 Chapel Street. He kept the flat until December 65. Ringo and George also occupied flats 5 and 6 for a short time (no further information given).
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Xose

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Re: When did live George & Ringo at Green St. flat??
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2011, 02:14:23 PM »

Excellent, Badgirl66... Thank you very much!! ;)

So: when did Klaus Voormman move to Green Street?? It had to be after Lennon and McCartney moved out (=end November 1963) and before Harrison and Ringo move to Whaddon House (=after their first US trip in February 64..., correct??)

Best!! ;)

Xosé
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Bobber

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Re: When did live George & Ringo at Green St. flat??
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2011, 02:19:26 PM »

Excellent, Badgirl66... Thank you very much!! ;)

So: when did Klaus Voormman move to Green Street?? It had to be after Lennon and McCartney moved out (=end November 1963) and before Harrison and Ringo move to Whaddon House (=after their first US trip in February 64..., correct??)

Best!! ;)

Xosé

Klaus' website mentions that he was invited to live in London by George and Ringo. So obviously John and Paul already moved out by then.
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peterbell1

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Re: When did live George & Ringo at Green St. flat??
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2011, 02:59:52 PM »

According to Wikipedia (not totally reliable but I thought I'd share it anyway) ....

"In the early 1960s, Voormann decided to leave Germany and move to London. George Harrison invited him to live in the Green Street flat formerly shared by all four Beatles, John Lennon and Paul McCartney having moved out: Lennon to live with his wife Cynthia Lennon, and McCartney to live in the attic of the home of Jane Asher's parents. Voormann lived with Harrison and Ringo Starr for a time before finding work as a commercial artist and renting an apartment of his own.[1] Voormann returned to Hamburg in 1963, founded the beat band with Paddy Chambers (guitar/vocals), Voormann (bass/vocals) and Gibson Kemp (drums) called Paddy, Klaus & Gibson."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Voormann

So, if that is true, Klaus can't have lived at Green Street for very long, assuming he moved in after John and Paul left but returned to Hamburg by the end of 1963. It could have only been late November 1963 or December 1963.
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Xose

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Re: When did live George & Ringo at Green St. flat??
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2011, 09:16:06 PM »

Thank you Bobber and peterbell1!! ;)

...So, if that is true, Klaus can't have lived at Green Street for very long, assuming he moved in after John and Paul left but returned to Hamburg by the end of 1963. It could have only been late November 1963 or December 1963.

Yes: it's a bit strange...

Thanks anyway!! ;)

Xosé
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Bobber

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Re: When did live George & Ringo at Green St. flat??
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2011, 06:55:51 AM »

Yes: it's a bit strange...


That sounds very unlikely, but it's not impossible.
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Xose

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Re: When did live George & Ringo at Green St. flat??
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2013, 09:39:03 PM »

I guees you kniw this book: Klaus Voormann, «Warum spielst du Imagine nicht auf dem weißen Klavier, John», Munich, Heyne,2003

My German is -indeed- much worse than my English. But there are a few facts on this book that puzzle me.

- On page 96, Voormann says:

«Mit der in eine Wolldecke eingewickelten Gitarre, meinem neuen TK40-Tonbandgerät, Stuarts Bassgitarre und ein paar Habseligkeiten machte Ich I'm Herbst 1963 auf den Weg nach London...George hatte mit mir vereinbart, dass ihr Chauffeur Bill Corbert mich am Bahnhof abholen würde... [Chauffeur Bill Corbert tells Voormann at the station] Die Boys sind in EMI-Studio, um neue Stücke aufzunehmen. Sie haben mich gebeten, dich direkt in Studio zu bringen»

So, according to Voormann, this happened in Autumn 1963. But..., what were The Beatles recording in Abbey Road by Autumn 1963??

- Voormann arrives at the Studio shortly after, and he says on page 101:

«Nach kurzer Zeit die vier in den Aufnahmeraum zurück. Ringo setzte sich hinter sein Schlagzeug, der Rest schnallte sich die Intsrumente um. George Martin drückte den Sprechknopf.

"Band ab. Take three."
Ich hörte John einzählen.
«One, two, three... if I fell in love with you, would you promise to be true..."»


But IIF was recorded on 27 February 1964..., correct??

So...., does this mean that Voormann did not arrive in London on Autumn 1963, but on 27 February 1964 instead??

I would like to know your thoughts about this story...

Best!! ;)

Xosé
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Bobber

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Re: When did live George & Ringo at Green St. flat??
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2013, 10:06:17 PM »

October 17, 1963. Recording of I Want To Hold Your Hand, This Boy and  a take of You Really Got A Hold On Me. Plus the Christmas Record for 1963.

October 23: recording the final input for With The Beatles. I Wanna Be Your Man, Little Child and Hold Me Tight.

There were also recordings on September 12. The only With The Beatles outtakes are from this date, so any earlier takes of Till There Was You have not survived as far as we know.


So, Klaus could have attended a recording in the autumn of 1963. But it is certain that the Beatles did not record If I Fell at one of those occasions. Either Klaus has the date wrong, or he has the song wrong.
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Xose

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Re: When did live George & Ringo at Green St. flat??
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2013, 10:29:46 PM »

...So, Klaus could have attended a recording in the autumn of 1963. But it is certain that the Beatles did not record If I Fell at one of those occasions. Either Klaus has the date wrong, or he has the song wrong.

Thank you. Bobber!! ;)

My guess is he has the date wrong. Why?? Page 106:

"[Ringo and George arrive at their Green Street flat and meet Klaus there] «Hey Klaus», begrüsste mich ein müder George, und zu Bill in nasalem Ton, fast ein bisschen wie Lord George: «Bill, macht du uns Tee?» Wie erwartet, ging es sofort in mein Zimmer, um zu sehen, was ich alles mitgebracht hatte.

«Oh, the spanish guitar!» Georges Augen glänzten,und schon spielte er die erste Akkorde. «Sounds great, man! Kann ich die morgen im Studio benützen?»"


So, this happened around 27 February 1964, when IIF and AILH were recorded..., didn't it??

Xosé
« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 10:31:25 PM by Xose »
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Bobber

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Re: When did live George & Ringo at Green St. flat??
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2013, 10:38:54 PM »

Feb 27
Thursday    Studio 2. 10.00am-1.00pm. Recording: `And I Love Her' [re-re-make] (takes 20-21); `Tell Me Why' (takes 1-8). Studio 2. 2.30-5.30pm. Recording: `If I Fell' (takes 1-15). Producer: George Martin; Engineer: Norman Smith; 2nd Engineer: Richard Langham.
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Ken Wood

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Re: When did live George & Ringo at Green St. flat??
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2013, 07:53:39 AM »

As so often with biographies I guess it could well be that Klaus - besides possibly misremembering things - wrapped up events a bit. He might have arrived in London in late 1963 and visited a recording session and he might as well have witnessed that early 64 recording session of "If I fell" but simply combined the events for atmoshphere.
The whole "Paddy, Klaus and Gibson" story is a bit confusing - from what I read in several sources:
- They were actually a kind of offshot from Kinsize Taylor`s band
- Initially they were a 5-member outfit called "The Eyes"
- They were formed in Hamburg or London but played a lot in Hamburg - all very vague
- They only whittled down to a trio including name change in 1965
Make of that what you want (that should actually be a subject of more research) but I feel that Klaus indeed could have have stayed in London from late 63 - early 64 (witnessing all those events he condensed in his book) and that he did NOT return to Hamburg to found the trio in late 1963. Possibly the band WAS founded in 63 (in whatever form) but relocated to London or Liverpool that year or Klaus was simply not with them for the duration of his stay in London.
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Ken Wood

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Re: When did live George & Ringo at Green St. flat??
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2013, 08:04:21 AM »

This page has some more precise info: http://www.geocities.com/fabgear6366/paddyklausgibson.htm
"Gibson Kemp was Ringo Starr's replacement in Rory Storm & The Hurricanes, whom he joined in September 1962. In February '63 he moved on to Kingsize Taylor & The Dominoes, who at that time included John Frankland on rhythm guitar and vocals. In June 1964, the Dominoes defected from Taylor and Paddy Chambers, a former member of Faron's Flamingos and The Big Three joined the group.

After just a few weeks, Chambers, Kemp and Franland jumped ship and, after recruiting bassist Lewis Collins, formed a new group called The Eyes, left Liverpool and moved to Hamburg, Germany.

In October '64, while the group was still in Germany, Collins departed and the band brought in a saxophonist, Johnny Phillips, who had previously been with the Roadrunners and Klaus Voorman, who had never previously played with a band. Voorman was a graphic designer who had befriended the Beatles during their Hamburg days.

In March 1965, Frankland and Phillips left. Now reduced to a trio, the Eyes returned to Liverpool and re-christened themselves "Paddy, Klaus & Gibson". Back in England, they became the first group to be managed by the future founder of Charisma, Tony Stratton-Smith. "

So it seems Klaus was not returning to Hamburg in 1963 to form the band but only joined them in October 1964. Thus no contradiction of him being in London in early 1964 witnessing the recording of If I Fell.
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Xose

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Re: When did live George & Ringo at Green St. flat??
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2013, 11:11:50 AM »

As so often with biographies I guess it could well be that Klaus - besides possibly misremembering things - wrapped up events a bit. He might have arrived in London in late 1963 and visited a recording session and he might as well have witnessed that early 64 recording session of "If I fell" but simply combined the events for atmoshphere...

I agree...

So, there are -at least- two possible scenarios:

1) Voormann goes to London by Autumn 1963, together with his Ramírez, Sutcliffe's Höfner 500/1, his new tape recorder and a few belongings. Bill Corbert pick him up at the station and they go to Abbey Road Studios, as Harrison had advised in his letter to Voormann. But they aren't -obviously- rehearsing IIF. Bill Corbert takes Voormann to R&G's Green Street flat and, when they return back home, Harrison sees The Ramírez for the first time (=naturally enough, Voormann had written in a previous letter about his purchasing of the guitar in Madrid, after leaving Tenerife...) On the next morning, Harrison takes the guitar with him to the studio, and the guitar is used there for the first time in an unknown song...

2) Voormann goes to London by end february 1964, together with his Ramírez, Sutcliffe's Höfner 500/1, his new tape recorder and a few belongings. Bill Corbert pick him up at the station and they go to Abbey Road Studios, as Harrison had advised in his letter to Voormann. There, they are rehearsing IIF. Bill Corbert takes Voormann to R&G's Green Street flat and, when they return back home, Harrison sees The Ramírez for the first time (=naturally enough, Voormann had written in a previous letter about his purchasing of the guitar in Madrid, after leaving Tenerife...) On the next morning, Harrison takes the guitar with him to the studio, and the guitar is used there for the first time in AILH...

I know it's pure speculation, and IIF plus AILH were recorded the same day...

Best!! ;)

Xosé
« Last Edit: April 03, 2013, 09:06:40 AM by Xose »
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