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Author Topic: Fox Hunting (And General Animal Cruelty Issues)  (Read 5828 times)

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Jai Guru Deva.

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Fox Hunting (And General Animal Cruelty Issues)
« on: August 04, 2011, 06:49:10 PM »

Hello folks,

I apologise if there is already a thread with a similar discussion about various forms of animal cruelty floating around here, but I'm speaking about something that's current and happening now, so I figured I could get away with a new one.  Mods, feel free to merge me with another thread if I'm wrong.  :)
Well, it's with a very heavy heart that I'm asking you guys to take a look at something that, if it wasn't deadly important, I otherwise would really not want you to see.  I don't doubt that almost everyone on here is aware of what goes on in the realms of fox hunting in the UK, and before I begin, I must stress that I am not here to antagonise anyone here who may be in favour of fox hunting.  If you are, then I'm not going to get stroppy and pass my judgements here personally - that's not what I'm here for, I don't want an argument.  Everyone has the right to their own opinion.  I'm merely here to show people a side of fox hunting that they may not have realised was there, and hopefully give people a catalyst to act upon how they feel and change this country for the better.  Even if you are not from the UK, you can make a difference - I'll explain.

Here in the UK, fox hunting was indeed banned, but recently there has been an uproar about repealing the law so that it can carry on legally once more.  After much surveying, the local MPs of every town all over the UK gave their opinions, and a large amount were against the idea.  However, typical of our dear British government, they've decided to ignore the public's feelings, and are talking about repealing the ban anyway, to please the practitioners of this so called 'sport'.  No matter what kind of person you believe yourself to be, or whatever opinions and morals you may have, you must agree that cruel acts against both humans and animals for nothing more than sick pleasure is inhumane, right?  That's right - fox hunting is not just affecting the foxes themselves - innocent people are getting dragged into this, too.

A group against hunting has made a film compiled of homemade footage shot by ordinary people living in areas where fox hunting still takes place.  That's right - STILL takes place...  but isn't it illegal?  Yes.  What this film points out is that David Cameron himself has secretly affiliated himself with these hunters and given them permission to carry on regardless of the law, which regardless of your opinion on fox hunting, you have to admit is shameful - he's knowingly and willingly permitting illegal activities to continue.  What I'm going to post a link to isn't the full film, which shows Cameron's allegience with these people - it's a shorter trailer.  The actual film will be available soon, I think.  The footage in this trailer spells out in plain daylight what is going on within these communities, and shows not only how innocent animals are suffering because of it, but innocent people too.  Remember that fox hunting is nothing more than game - it does not provide anything for the community, it does not aid the animal kingdom - it has no purpose other than unnecessary entertainment.

WARNING:  The video at this link contains graphic footage of fox hunting in action - this includes uncensored physical violence and ultimately death where the foxes are concerned, and also strong human-on-human physical violence, which is almost what I want you to see more than the fox hunting - it's what's going on in these communities to innocent people, carried out by hunters who know what they're doing is wrong, but believe themselves to be superior to normal folk - and fight to 'prove' it.  The film also contains strong language, but to be honest, it's barely noticeable in contrast to the rest of it.  Of course, the 'shock value' of these types of films is usually the catalyst for people to stand up for what they believe in, so if you want to learn more and feel you can deal with these images, please go ahead.  However, I don't want to cause anyone upset, so if you're really badly affected by this sort of thing, feel free to skip the video.  I'm certainly not here to push this into the faces of anyone who doesn't wish to see it.  :)

Here is the link:  http://www.save-me.org.uk/we-support/

I understand that this has always been, and probably always will be a touchy subject, but Britain needs to get its collective head together once and for all - there is so much cruelty, violence, poverty and injustice in this world, and some of it is beyond our control.  But folks, animal cruelty IS under our control, and the only people who can change it is YOU.  If we all stand united, we can really make a difference.  I'm sorry for the absolute essay, but these things can rarely be done by halves.
If you'd like to make a difference, you can start right now, from the comfort of your chair;  there are many organizations that fight for the rights of our dear animals, and they all have online petitions that you can sign to announce that you're on their side.  Remember that animals cannot fight for themselves - the only voice they have is us.  We have to speak out and make sure that they're heard.

Sign a quick and easy petition here:

http://www.save-me.org.uk/petition/

The organisation League Against Cruel Sports has a whole array of great information about fox hunting and many other forms of animal cruelty, including a phone number for the Hunt Crimewatch - if you live in the UK in an area where you see fox hunting still happening, you can report it.  The link is here:  http://www.league.org.uk/content/325/What-Can-You-Do-
On the same website, you can make donations of any amount you like, in any currency, so people around the world, if you feel moved by this, you can contribute to our cause.  It doesn't have to be a large amount - any contribution is greatly valued, and will go towards the funding of all LACS anti-cruelty organisations and events.

If you are unsure about all this, you probably have some questions about whether fox hunting really is cruel or not - and that's perfectly understandable.  If you'd like to hear both for and against opinions, there is a section on the website of the animal rights group Save Me, set up by Brian May of Queen, who has been, and still is, very active in the field of ending animal cruelty.  There is some good information about how fox hunting affects things and opinions from both sides of the coin, as it were.  You can find this here, but the whole website is good:  http://www.save-me.org.uk/lame-claims/

If you're worried about coming across any more grizzly images while browsing these links, don't worry - you won't find any.  The only shocking thing posted here was the video.  All of the other links are perfectly safe to browse, so don't hesitate.

Once again, sorry for the huge post!  And I honestly do not mean to offend anyone or instigate any arguments through this; everyone is entitled to their own opinion, whether we agree or not, so I'm of course not going to argue with anyone about this - we've all got our rights to freedom of speech.  Let's respect each other and keep any conversation to harmless discussion.  Please don't think of this as a big "let's all be hippies and live in a big orgy in the middle of a field with animals running all over the place and everything completely out of control" speech, folks!  It's not about that, it's a matter of human morals - if the majority of people feel that something is wrong, it should be stopped.  There's no need for unnecessary death in any place or situation.

Mods, if you find anything wrong with this thread, particularly the link to the video, please edit it in any way you see fit.

Thanks guys, all the best.

xxx
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Re: Fox Hunting (And General Animal Cruelty Issues)
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2011, 11:07:50 PM »

I dont live in the UK so I cant comment about it much but I am against foxhunting, cockfighting, Hair coursing, Dog fighting and Bullfighting, surely any sport that involves cruelty to animals is wrong.

I doubt though that the PM would secretly tell people that they could go on breaking the law, would he really risk his whole political career for a few upper class twits ?

If I were making a case against it I wouldnt make those allegations unless I had absolute proof that he had done that, ie a video a tape recording or a letter telling them its ok to carry on.
If they havent got such proof the people who are in favour of the sport will just accuse them of making things up to get a left wing (labour) government back in power, they will say it is politically motivated and that will destroy some credibility for the anti hunt brigade.
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Re: Fox Hunting (And General Animal Cruelty Issues)
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2011, 01:48:00 AM »

I think the full film that's being released, not just the trailer I posted, has some form of evidential footage of this issue.  I haven't seen it yet, I don't think it's been released in its entirety yet.  Even if there is no evidence, it's not really the crux of the matter - if we could prove that Cameron is doing this, then it would greatly help the cause, but it's not essential.  The real issue here is morals, and whether we're prepared to stand up and fight for what's right, or lay down and take it.  I think people are scared of speaking out about these touchy subjects because not only is it very hard to be taken seriously as an animal rights supporter, it automatically puts you in a category that has a strong opposition, whether you're for or against.  People are relentlessly fighting this tug-of-war on both sides.  To be honest, I was fully expecting to log back on here and recieve a barrage of such opposition myself for posting this!!!  I certainly hope we can change the minds of the people in the right places and make sure no animal suffers unnecessarily again.

xxx
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Re: Fox Hunting (And General Animal Cruelty Issues)
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2011, 08:11:59 PM »

I'm aware that this isn't exactly a popular thread, but I feel as though I should still try to catch people's attention about the things we animal lovers feel are important.

The UK government recently put the 'green light' on a project which will, over the next five years (beginning next year), cull literally thousands of badgers across the UK, in an attempt to stop the spread of bovine tuberculosis, a disease that results in the death of thousands of cows a year.  While it is true that badgers can carry bovine TB, eradicating as many of them as possible will NOT stop the spread of the disease - and certainly not cure it.  The proper solution to bovine TB is to vaccinate cows against it, and eradicate it at its source.  There is a vaccination program in development, but it won't be complete and ready for use until 2015.  The government has decided that they can't wait that long, and despite the fact that 69% of the British population expressed that they don't want the mass badger cull to go ahead, they've put it into action anyway, against the wishes of the country.  Not only this, they are permitting farmers to shoot badgers on sight, which is detrimental to the cause.  It's called perturbation effect - badgers remain in their setts and are not huge wanderers, but when shot at, they will inevitably scatter and spread to new places which they would not normally go, therefore spreading the disease further if they happen to carry it.

We believe that the badger cull is an inhumane and wreckless decision, chiefly because a huge number of the badgers in question are not carrying the disease, so we will be essentially murdering a large amount of innocent creatures, and a small amount of creatures that do carry the disease, but won't necessarily spread it if undisturbed.  It's very important to remember that science has proven that culling badgers will NOT eradicate bovine tuberculosis - it may slightly help to limit its spread, but this is not the issue.  We should focus on vaccinating our cattle to ensure that they become immune to it, and thus there will be no further concern with its potential spread.  It's true, bovine TB affects our meat and dairy industries in a strong way, but it should be dealt with by immunising and curing our cows, where the disease first manifests, and NOT by hacking down thousands of badgers who are capable of carrying it, but aren't responsible for its effect upon cattle.

If you agree with this, please feel free to sign these e-petitions.  One is for reversing the decision to cull the badgers in England, and the other is in Wales, I believe.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/6546

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/6173

Also, if you'd like some more information on the subject, this is a good, informative article:  http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog/2011/aug/11/badger-cull-dont-stop-bovine-tb?INTCMP=SRCH

Thanks everyone.  Please spread the word - let's eradicate animal cruelty, step by step!

xxx
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Re: Fox Hunting (And General Animal Cruelty Issues)
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2011, 07:35:08 AM »

I'm aware that this isn't exactly a popular thread, but I feel as though I should still try to catch people's attention about the things we animal lovers feel are important.

I did pay attention. It's terrible to see what people can do to animals. When my children had the age of not wanting to sleep in the middle of the night, I used to turn the tv on and watch Animal Planet. The series of the Animal Cops kept me awake even longer...

Good luck with the petition and everything.
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Re: Fox Hunting (And General Animal Cruelty Issues)
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2011, 02:00:36 PM »

I don't want to come off as bitter or as a pessimist, but although I'm still a convinced vegetarian I more or less gave up on trying to change people's minds about animal cruelty. Every year, nine billion (9.000.000.000) animals die in slaughterhouses in the USA alone and most people don't really care. So I don't have high hopes for masses of people manning the barrides for a few foxes or badgers...

Sorry for being a downer.  :-\
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Re: Fox Hunting (And General Animal Cruelty Issues)
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2011, 07:27:19 PM »

Thanks for the kind words, Bobber!  :)
And Joost, don't worry about it - I can completely understand.  Fighting for the rights of animals has always been a near impossible task, and there is so much pessimism because of course, as the dominant species on this planet, the human race decides whether cruelty to animals is indeed cruel at all - it's such a subjective matter.  It does seem unlikely that people will care enough to stop these things happening to creatures that are 'below us' as it were, and 'unimportant' compared to us, but I and everyone who works with these organizations are hoping that soon, the public conscience will realise that unnecessary death and suffering is unacceptable in the realm of any creature - even those that seem unimportant.  Animals may not have a voice to tell us what they feel, but that doesn't mean that they don't feel, and we are no one to bring their worlds crashing down in one swoop just because we fancy it.  We should be able to exist alongside each other in peace, the way it should be - and our government is putting these horrible projects like the badger cull into action pretty much against our wishes - like I said earlier, 69% of England didn't want it to go ahead, but they're doing it anyway.  The government need to understand that they must listen to us about these things - and it's people like us that must do it.

I know how hard and seemingly futile this is, but think about the planet - we've taken everything.  There's basically nothing on this Earth that humans haven't visited, built on, bulldozed, destroyed, poisoned or changed to suit our needs, and ours alone.  The other animals, while not possessing the same intelligence as us (apparently...), should still have total freedom to use this Earth the way they need to to survive alongside us, and we can't even grant them that - we have more than what we need, despite the fact that we struggle to manage it properly so that everyone is safe, but especially in places like England and the USA and places where when you think about it, the people have everything they need.  But a lot of animals are deprived of homes, food, safety and in so many cases, their lives, just because we feel like it, essentially.  It is not equal, and we've forgotten about it.  More and more people are re-realising this every day, and speaking out - and the governments have noticed.  They're panicking because they want to take action to end the problems, but they can't see how to do it peacefully, so they think they're doing what's best by culling, but they're not - it's our voice that has to speak for the animals.

I know it's hard, and we get so much stick for it, but if you really believe in something, you should fight for it and give it your all, otherwise, nothing would ever get done - if everyone gave up halfway through, no one would ever achieve anything.  And remember that it's not just you - us animal lovers are always here, doing our bit and sticking together, and our group is growing, believe me.  You have friends in this, and if we can make the right people realise what needs to change, we can really make a difference to animals who deserve as wonderful a life as what we've built for ourselves.  So if you believe that animal cruelty is wrong...  just say it.  And if no one listens, say it again, louder, until they have no choice but to listen.  We might not be able to save the lives of all the creatures that suffer, but if we can save thousands of badgers from being culled, or ensure that our foxes are never hunted again, or save a species from extinction...  if we can make our own vicious race realise how destructive we've become, and put that destruction to an end in some way, then it's worth it.  Who knows, it could even set the ball rolling for allsorts of wonderful changes that will benefit the world.  We just have to believe.

xxx
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Re: Fox Hunting (And General Animal Cruelty Issues)
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2011, 04:39:39 AM »

Quote from: Jai Guru Deva
I know it's hard, and we get so much stick for it, but if you really believe in something, you should fight for it and give it your all, otherwise, nothing would ever get done

I really admire your passion and agree with everything you've said. I live in a rural area and I always feel so badly when I see animals that have been hit because we built roads where they live. I worry about all animals but what I think about the most is dogfighting and puppy mills/pet stores. They are big issues here in the United States. I have four dogs and when I see the trust in their eyes I cannot fathom how anyone could abuse that trust. Are your petitions only for residents of England?
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Re: Fox Hunting (And General Animal Cruelty Issues)
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2011, 02:33:22 AM »

I do my share to help the fox.  I've been known to "accidentally" wander into a hunt when I'm out riding my horse, Mr. Governor.  A few others who ride recreationally feel the same way and we are quite effective in disruption giving the fox a chance to escape its pursuers.  When admonished by the hunters, I yell "I'm riding here!"




It's a lot like this scene from Midnight Cowboy...



Midnight Cowboy - Im Walkin Here (The video's owner prevents external embedding)

 ;D
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Re: Fox Hunting (And General Animal Cruelty Issues)
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2011, 07:50:04 AM »

 ha2ha

nice one Barry
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Re: Fox Hunting (And General Animal Cruelty Issues)
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2011, 12:22:11 PM »

I signed the petition, Jai Guru Deva. Every time I see any cruelty to animals I cry  :'( because I can hardly  stand it. That's why I'm a vegetarian and don't want to buy a fur coat for my wife. And I completely agree with Joost! But if there wouldn't people who're fighting against cruelty, the world will be much savage.

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Re: Fox Hunting (And General Animal Cruelty Issues)
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2011, 04:59:37 PM »

ha2ha

nice one Barry


Ya gotta do what ya gotta do in cases like this, Kevin.  It's a bit dangerous to do this as the dogs and horses out on the hunt get our horses all worked up.  I don't see the sport in fox hunting.  I'm lucky to have red fox in the wooded area where I live.  They're beautiful animals.



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Re: Fox Hunting (And General Animal Cruelty Issues)
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2011, 06:12:26 PM »

Ah, you wonderful people!  I'm so glad there are more who feel the way I do about these things.  In My Life, I'm afraid the petitions I've posted are only applicable to Britain because they're specifically about the issues going on here at the moment.  I might look into some worldwide ones soon and post them here, but in the meantime, why not have a look and post some yourself, if you fancy?  I'd be more than happy to have all of you guys join in a post relevant things regarding these matters.  The more the merrier  :)
And Hello Goodbye, bloody good on you!!!  But I must stress - and I don't want to sound like an old fart - but be careful!  I've seen some horrible violence and verbal abuse given to people who interrupt or cross paths with hunters.  But honestly, kudos to you and your friends for putting yourselves between the hoard and the fox - I bet sometimes, it's the crucial gap the poor fox needs to get away safely.  And your horse is lovely - I'm a horse obsessive, myself!  Been riding since I was eight and I just adore the creatures.

But!  News just in!  Here in the UK, one lovely lady and her co-Tories have just potentially quashed the fox-hunting ban repeal!  Here's the article:  http://www.save-me.org.uk/news/fox/article/fox_hunting_vote_killed_off_by_new_generation_of_young_urban_tory_women_opposed_to_bloodsports
Basically, our latest leader only brought this particular group of MPs into the picture to give the impression that he was leading a modern government and to appeal to the public eye, but he shot himself in the foot.  This article reveals that he has personally expressed favour towards fox hunting and that he wanted the ban lifted, and a free vote would occur soon.  Since there are actually quite a few pro-hunting MPs, it was a growing concern that we would see hunting become as common and horrific as it was before - but no more!  A party known as the Blue Fox Group have expressed their opposition to the ban repeal, meaning that if such a vote was undertaken, the pro-hunting votes would certainly be outweighed - there would be no way for them to win with so many anti-hunting MPs there.  Cameron has since stated that the vote isn't such a pressing matter now, and has been shelved.  What a party!  Let's hope it stays that way!  Now, if we can just clamp down on the illegal hunts that are occurring, we could actually abolish cruelty to foxes fullstop.  What a thought, after so much struggle and worry.

Remember, if you live in the UK and you see illegal fox hunting, please report it to the Hunt Crimewatch via this link:   http://www.league.org.uk/content/325/What-Can-You-Do-

Goodness, it's a strange yet exhilerating feeling to think that if we can just get our act together as a country and eradiate the illegal hunting, we and our wonderful foxes can finally breath a collective sigh of relief on this one.

I also have something to say about vegetarianism, but I think I'll leave it until I've got a bit more energy!!!  There's something about animal rights campaining that really takes it out of you!

xxx
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Re: Fox Hunting (And General Animal Cruelty Issues)
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2011, 06:55:45 PM »

And Hello Goodbye, bloody good on you!!!  But I must stress - and I don't want to sound like an old fart - but be careful!  I've seen some horrible violence and verbal abuse given to people who interrupt or cross paths with hunters.  But honestly, kudos to you and your friends for putting yourselves between the hoard and the fox - I bet sometimes, it's the crucial gap the poor fox needs to get away safely.  And your horse is lovely - I'm a horse obsessive, myself!  Been riding since I was eight and I just adore the creatures.


Shirli, it's just verbal abuse from the hunters and an occasional visit to the barn where I keep my horse.  I ignore what they have to say and go about my business as if they weren't there.

Thank you for your kind words regarding Mr. Governor.  He's a good boy and understands what we're doing.








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Re: Fox Hunting (And General Animal Cruelty Issues)
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2011, 02:05:36 AM »

Ohh, now you've done it...  *goes all soft-eyed at Mr. Governor*  :D
He's wonderful!  I wish I had a horse of my own, but unfortunately the lifestyle of me and my mum, who I lived with my whole life up until leaving for university, was too much.  I did college full time and my mum worked miles away from home - and she knows practically nothing about horses.  We looked into it so many times, but it would have been impossible to juggle education, work and a horse.  The closest I got was having a horse on sort-of loan for a couple of years when I was fourteen.  He wasn't properly mine, but I got to act like it for most of the time!  *Sigh*  I certainly do miss our equine friends now I'm trapped in the grey, perpetual concrete of the city.

I was only concerned about the hunters affecting you because of what I've seen them do to others who 'interfered'...  if you haven't seen it already, take a look at the video I linked to in my first post in this thread, although I warn you, it's a shock.  It's horrible seeing just how cruel people can be when someone tries to tell them they might be wrong.

Anyway, I'm just glad that there are others like you on here that are on my side with all this - I was fully prepared for a huge backlash, braced for big arguments and p*ss-taking.  Most people just don't get it, or they think you're stupid for believing in these things.  So thanks Hello Goodbye, and everyone else, for giving it a chance and empathising.  It always seems like an endless battle, but when you come across more people who feel the same, even to the smallest degree, it always injects us with a fresh sense of hope.  :)

xxx
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Re: Fox Hunting (And General Animal Cruelty Issues)
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2011, 03:39:08 PM »

Okay, you wanted non-UK matters, and here's one now!  I've just been shown this link about live animal export from Australia, and it's not a nice sight.  If we are to eat meat, the production and therefore slaughter of the animals should be carried out in the most humane way possible, right?  An organisation called Animals Australia did an undercover investigation in an abattoir in Turkey which had recieved animals from Australia.  The Aussies seem to 'specialise', as it were, in live export, during which the animals are rounded up, suspended from the ceiling by a hind leg, and their throats slit while they are fully conscious, being left to bleed to death hanging from the roof.  This is NOT ACCEPTABLE.

Here is a link to the page with the artice about this issue, which has the video displaying this horrible process in action - though the worst images have been taken out, the video is still mildly unsettling, as it shows animals in distress.  If you feel you're too sensitive to view it, just read the article and skip the video.
http://www.animalsaustralia.org/take_action/turkey-live-export-investigation/

On the same page, there is the facility to make your opinion known to the Australian MPs - and I believe that it caters to non-Aussies too, so please speak up if you feel moved by this.  Apparently, there has been enough public uproar against live export in Australia that it's less if a ban will occur, but when.  The local MPs just need that extra push to be convinced that it's a matter that needs to be taken action upon now, not later.  Let's put our word in and ensure that if our animals do have to die, their deaths are dignified and peaceful, not barbaric and violent.

xxx
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In My Life

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Re: Fox Hunting (And General Animal Cruelty Issues)
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2011, 03:32:49 AM »

Quote from: Jai Guru Deva
On the same page, there is the facility to make your opinion known to the Australian MPs - and I believe that it caters to non-Aussies too

I couldn't bring myself to watch the video but just reading about this sickens me. I tried to sign the petition but in spite of there being an option under "select your MP" for non-Australians I got a message later that it was only open to Australians. I hope this campaign will be successful.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2011, 06:20:51 AM by In My Life »
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Kelley

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Re: Fox Hunting (And General Animal Cruelty Issues)
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2011, 04:46:11 PM »

I couldn't bring myself to watch the video but just reading about this sickens me. I tried to sign the petition but in spite of there being an option under "select your MP" for non-Australians I got a message later that it was only open to Australians. I hope this campaign will be successful.

Ah, yes, I saw that, but when that notice comes up, it also gives you a link to click which allows you to drop a line about the issue through your country's Australian Embassy.  Thankfully, it seems as though the matter is being taken seriously by the Australian government, so hopefully they won't need much more convincing.

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Limitless, undying love, which shines around me like a million suns, it calls me on and on, across the universe.
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In My Life

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Re: Fox Hunting (And General Animal Cruelty Issues)
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2011, 06:55:21 PM »

it also gives you a link to click which allows you to drop a line about the issue through your country's Australian Embassy. 


Oops! How did I not see that? I'm going to read a little more about this issue then send off an e-mail. Thanks for pointing that out!
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nimrod

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Re: Fox Hunting (And General Animal Cruelty Issues)
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2011, 01:01:28 AM »

I dont know if people are aware that live exports were halted recently for quite a few weeks till our govmt was happy that 'humane' slaughter was adhered too in Turkey, there was a huge uproar during the ban by the rural farmers here, a lot were going bust and losing their entire livelihood, also cows (that shouldve been exported) were dying (starving) in the paddocks because the farmers couldnt afford to feed them as they had no income, some people lost everything.

The exports have now resumed.

I suppose too many people turn a blind eye to these things as the desire to eat meat is very strong generally speaking.
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