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Author Topic: Microscope: Forever Changes (Love)  (Read 8158 times)

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Kangaroo Kev

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Re: Microscope: Forever Changes (Love)
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2011, 11:11:04 PM »

George's All Things Must Pass album is equal or better than the best solo works by John and Paul. However his other records never were close to that level. John is my favourite solo Beatle, I think he gave the best material from 1970 to 1975, which is the most substantial period for all ex-Beatles solo careers. Anyway, John only released two truly great albums (Plastic Ono Band and Imagine) plus some good albums with a couple of classic songs and several fillers.

I think thats true mate....Imagine is of course THE album everyone regards as his best but I prefer Plastic Ono Band, especially the lyrics,
 
'they hate you if your clever and they despise a fool'

'Remember when you were young, how the hero, was never hung'

'I was the dreamweaver, but now Im reborn, I was the walrus but now Im John'

Just a selection of what I love about this album, I think to write music about whats going on in your very soul and express what that is is truly artistic, I dont think even Dylan couldve written this album.
Todd is right that it is self absorbed, but theres only one song called Mother.....and didnt every great artist paint a self portrait ?
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Hombre_de_ningun_lugar

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Re: Microscope: Forever Changes (Love)
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2011, 11:12:54 PM »

I think it was superior to anything John and Paul put out, but thats only my opinion.

I tend to agree, it's a shame that other George's records weren't that great, or at least that's my opinion.

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I think he has the worst. When I listen to Johns solo stuff, I come away feeling depressed, angry, and just not liking him because he comes across as self absorbed. Everythings about him. His mother died when he was young, so what. At what point do you move on? George's stuff at least lent itself to being sincere and not the pity party John would have us all feel for him. Pauls stuff was just musically superior. It was fuller and more involved.
 
I truly thinks Johns solo stuff is what caused me to stop and look at the man more so than the music. I came away not caring for who I met.

Well, we have different tastes here, even though we share some tastes about some records (Forever Changes is an example). Since I became a fan of the Beatles, John's songs were always my favourite ones, so I've always paid more attention to his solo career. Nevertheless, my favoritism didn't change when I gave a try to the other ex-Beatles careers. Paul's solo career was too lightweight to my ears, and I care too much about the lyrics to forgive his silly stuff; George never developed after his marvelous All Things Must Pass, and even that record is over-produced beyond its geniality, I tend to dislike that; and Ringo, well, he's Ringo. Now, I think that John's lack of virtuosity and new musical ideas is compensated by his superior songwriting, and if we just talk about the music I also prefer his style. Plastic Ono Band is very touching, even if I don't agree with several of his sentences, it's John showing us how he was and felt; it may not mean anything to others, but those who care about sincerity take notice; Imagine is much more than just a great peace anthem, I think the whole album is great, especially the ballads; and Mind Games, Walls And Bridges and Rock 'N' Roll have enough good material for those who love John's music. I don't care too much about Double Fantasy, but John was not the same at that point, and I don't blame him, he had grown up.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 11:16:24 PM by Hombre_de_ningun_lugar »
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Hombre_de_ningun_lugar

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Re: Microscope: Forever Changes (Love)
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2011, 11:22:26 PM »

I think thats true mate....Imagine is of course THE album everyone regards as his best but I prefer Plastic Ono Band, especially the lyrics,
 
'they hate you if your clever and they despise a fool'

'Remember when you were young, how the hero, was never hung'

'I was the dreamweaver, but now Im reborn, I was the walrus but now Im John'

Just a selection of what I love about this album, I think to write music about whats going on in your very soul and express what that is is truly artistic, I dont think even Dylan couldve written this album.
Todd is right that it is self absorbed, but theres only one song called Mother.....and didnt every great artist paint a self portrait ?

Actually I think that Plastic Ono Band has more recognition than Imagine, at least among rock critics. And what you say it's true, it's an under-produced masterpiece with John crying his soul, even if, as I said, I don't agree with some of his sentences.
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tkitna

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Re: Microscope: Forever Changes (Love)
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2011, 01:53:31 AM »

You may be right about me trying to defend my point of view, but well, that's what all we do.

Good point. Of course your right.


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I think that just for historical relevance and impact in rock music it's much more important to look for other 1960's artists rather than the solo records.

Trust me, i'm always looking for that needle in the haystack and I come up empty more often than not, but i'm not sure I can agree with you or really understand your point here. I know the solo efforts are easily obtainable, but I dont know if searching out other 60's artists to fully understand the 60's is really important. Listen to what you like and go from there.

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Some may say that a "true" Beatles fan should even get Electronic Sound.

I hear what your saying. I dont have the stupid sh*t like 'Life With The Lions' and 'Electric Sound', but I have the rest. As a youth, I thought I would automatically like all of the solo stuff because I liked the Beatles, so I bought it all. Of course that wasnt correct. Thats why I question Gary when he says he likes all the Beatle songs. Maybe he does. I just find that hard to believe.

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The Beatles were the most important part of something bigger, and you can't understand the Beatles music if you don't understand the 1960's phenomenon.

I think this is more historical than musical though. To understand the Beatles, read a book. To enjoy them, listen to an album. Its black and white to me.

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About you liking more some solo records than actual Beatles albums, was it always that way?

Sure. I knew from the first listen that I liked 'RAM', 'All Things Must Pass', and 'Ringo' (examples) more than 'Beatles For Sale', 'Let It Be', and 'With The Beatles'. There wasnt even a question.

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Or are you just tired after listening to the Beatles so many times?

I'm just as tired of the solo stuff as I am the Beatle albums at this point and my opinion still stands, so I would say no.

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Did the solo albums have a bigger impact in your life than the actual Beatles records?

Some of them I would say. When I was in college and smoking a lot of dope, my friends and I had a much better time listening to 'Back To The Egg' and other solo efforts then some Beatle albums. Not all of course, but some.

tkitna

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Re: Microscope: Forever Changes (Love)
« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2011, 01:57:16 AM »

Todd is right that it is self absorbed, but theres only one song called Mother.....and didnt every great artist paint a self portrait ?

Yeah, but damn Kev. Johns been whining and doing that since 1964. When is enough enough?

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Re: Microscope: Forever Changes (Love)
« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2011, 02:07:03 AM »

I tend to agree, it's a shame that other George's records weren't that great, or at least that's my opinion.

We share the same opinion. I needed a Jim Keltner fix so I threw in some 'Living In The Material World' and although its probably considered his 2nd best album, I find only half of it to be interesting. I have a soft spot for 'Extra Texture', but I know what it is.

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I don't care too much about Double Fantasy, but John was not the same at that point, and I don't blame him, he had grown up.

The very reason why I do like his output here. He seemed happy to me and that was a different John than what I was used to. His death was such a bummer becuase I was so looking forward to hear what music was to come. I know I would have loved it.

Hombre_de_ningun_lugar

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Re: Microscope: Forever Changes (Love)
« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2011, 02:33:07 AM »

Good point. Of course your right.

At least we agree on this. ;D

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Trust me, i'm always looking for that needle in the haystack and I come up empty more often than not, but i'm not sure I can agree with you or really understand your point here. I know the solo efforts are easily obtainable, but I dont know if searching out other 60's artists to fully understand the 60's is really important. Listen to what you like and go from there.

I think that the sense of what I've tried to say was a bit lost. In any case, listening to a solo Beatles album doesn't stop you to listen to other music, like 1960's bands, though it quits you time and money that you could you use in other way. My intention was to make a difference between artist and art. If you think the artist is more important than the art, then the name becomes more important than the quality, and you'll prefer to listen to a crappy record by your idol than a masterpiece by your ignored artist. Maybe I don't have a completist mind, and just look for what I think is valuable.

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I hear what your saying. I dont have the stupid sh*t like 'Life With The Lions' and 'Electric Sound', but I have the rest. As a youth, I thought I would automatically like all of the solo stuff because I liked the Beatles, so I bought it all. Of course that wasnt correct. Thats why I question Gary when he says he likes all the Beatle songs. Maybe he does. I just find that hard to believe.

That's good and I respect that. I've listened to most albums ex-Beatles released during the 1970's, and I really liked a few of them. I must say that I didn't listen to most stuff released during the 1980's and afterwards, since I didn't like at all the few things I've listened, and I wasn't interested to listen to more of that.

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I think this is more historical than musical though. To understand the Beatles, read a book. To enjoy them, listen to an album. Its black and white to me.

I don't exactly disagree with you, but my view of the Beatles music changed when I started to listen to other 1960's bands; on one side it made me understand their importance as innovators, and on the other side it made me see that they weren't the only musical revolutionaries.

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Sure. I knew from the first listen that I liked 'RAM', 'All Things Must Pass', and 'Ringo' (examples) more than 'Beatles For Sale', 'Let It Be', and 'With The Beatles'. There wasnt even a question.

Well, I also find Plastic Ono Band, Imagine, Band On The Run and All Things Must Pass to be more consistent albums than Please Please Me, With The Beatles, Beatles For Sale and Let It Be (not to mention Yellow Submarine), but in my case those are just exceptions that confirm the rule.

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I'm just as tired of the solo stuff as I am the Beatle albums at this point and my opinion still stands, so I would say no.

Ok.

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Some of them I would say. When I was in college and smoking a lot of dope, my friends and I had a much better time listening to 'Back To The Egg' and other solo efforts then some Beatle albums. Not all of course, but some.

In my case, no other music had the impact the Beatles had on me, they really opened my mind and defined me. Now, after listening to their records so many times, I may enjoy more other music that is fresher to my ears, but when I rate an album I consider the effect it had on me at first listen. That's why I think that Rubber Soul will always be my very favourite album.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2011, 02:37:38 AM by Hombre_de_ningun_lugar »
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Hombre_de_ningun_lugar

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Re: Microscope: Forever Changes (Love)
« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2011, 02:40:07 AM »

The very reason why I do like his output here. He seemed happy to me and that was a different John than what I was used to. His death was such a bummer becuase I was so looking forward to hear what music was to come. I know I would have loved it.

Well, it seems that I prefer the sad John. It's said that poets need pain to do their art. ;D
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Kangaroo Kev

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Re: Microscope: Forever Changes (Love)
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2011, 03:07:17 AM »

Yeah, but damn Kev. Johns been whining and doing that since 1964. When is enough enough?

at least with Help he got away from I love you, she loves me, she loves you, I'll get you, love me do etc etc

and if I could gaim world adulation and endless riches by whining, Id whine  ha2ha
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tkitna

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Re: Microscope: Forever Changes (Love)
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2011, 06:06:53 AM »

at least with Help he got away from I love you, she loves me, she loves you, I'll get you, love me do etc etc

and if I could gaim world adulation and endless riches by whining, Id whine  ha2ha

I understand, but he just seemed like a really depressed person to me and it gets exhausting after awhile. I dont think he was happy unless he was depressed, and I feel he searched for different vehicles to get that feeling. If it wasnt his mom dying it was the band, or his marriage, or his weight, or his son, or Brians death, or the drugs, or the government, or etc,,,,,. See what I mean?

Yeah Paul wasnt as deep,,,,,,,Thank God!

tkitna

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Re: Microscope: Forever Changes (Love)
« Reply #50 on: November 12, 2011, 06:33:54 AM »

In any case, listening to a solo Beatles album doesn't stop you to listen to other music, like 1960's bands, though it quits you time and money that you could you use in other way.

Yes, but how would you know if you liked it or not without listening to it or purchasing it? Same can be said about the other 60's bands. Usually you heard a tune or two on the radio, music store, or a friends house and based your decision on that. The internet wasnt always around. Now that it is though, I go searching for deep stuff. Sure makes it a lot easier.


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If you think the artist is more important than the art, then the name becomes more important than the quality, and you'll prefer to listen to a crappy record by your idol than a masterpiece by your ignored artist. Maybe I don't have a completist mind, and just look for what I think is valuable.

I understand what your saying, I really do, but how do you come to the consclusion before trying stuff out? A few people told me that 'Forever Changes' was a masterpiece and I kept seeing its name popping up in discussions so I knew I had to have it. I bought it and when I first listened to it, I thought it was ehhh. It grew on me and now I agree with the status. That doesnt always happen though. Neutral Milk Hotels 'In The Aeroplane Over The Sea' is much daunted like 'Forever Changes' and I cant stand it. Regardless, I think the point i'm trying to make is even if music is from a familiar artist, you still have to experience it to know if your going to like it or not. Its ok to buy the solo efforts. You might just like them.

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I don't exactly disagree with you, but my view of the Beatles music changed when I started to listen to other 1960's bands; on one side it made me understand their importance as innovators, and on the other side it made me see that they weren't the only musical revolutionaries.

I agree with this too. I'll be the first to say that I think the Beatles were the greatest, but when I toss on stuff from the Kinks, Stones, Byrds, Beach Boys, etc,,,I realize they werent alone.

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In my case, no other music had the impact the Beatles had on me, they really opened my mind and defined me. Now, after listening to their records so many times, I may enjoy more other music that is fresher to my ears,

I do too, but sometimes you have to go back and see what the big deal was about. I'll throw on a Beatles album every now and then and realize how f***ing good they really were.

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but when I rate an album I consider the effect it had on me at first listen. That's why I think that Rubber Soul will always be my very favourite album.

I rate my albums with how enjoyable they are after numerous relistens. I've probably heard 'Forever Changes' a thousand times and I still enjoy the p*ss out that record. I used to love Pink Floyd ecstatically and own all their albums, but now I can only stomach a handful of their songs at best from their entire catalog. Floyd had a huge impact on me years ago, but nothing now. Hey we're different. How cool is that?

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Re: Microscope: Forever Changes (Love)
« Reply #51 on: November 12, 2011, 10:36:09 AM »

Well, it seems that I prefer the sad John. It's said that poets need pain to do their art. ;D

Hi Hombre_de_ningun_lugar! What's happening? That's a very interesting point that may be true! Many of the Blues greats always believed that the only way you can sing the Blues is when you are feeling pain within yourself such as a broken heart. Peter Green said some years back that he had to stop singing the Blues because it was too painful. Take care. 
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Kangaroo Kev

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Re: Microscope: Forever Changes (Love)
« Reply #52 on: November 12, 2011, 02:16:33 PM »

I understand, but he just seemed like a really depressed person to me and it gets exhausting after awhile. I dont think he was happy unless he was depressed, and I feel he searched for different vehicles to get that feeling. If it wasnt his mom dying it was the band, or his marriage, or his weight, or his son, or Brians death, or the drugs, or the government, or etc,,,,,. See what I mean?

Yeah Paul wasnt as deep,,,,,,,Thank God!

well I guess its how you look at john, to me he was the funniest Beatle by a mile, yeah he liked to sing about his feelings but I just really dig what he wrote, he was a true innovator with songs like Strawberry Fields, Norwegian Wood  and Tomorrow Never Knows etc I suppose for me he was it, numero uno, the guy I dug the most..
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Re: Microscope: Forever Changes (Love)
« Reply #53 on: November 12, 2011, 06:03:59 PM »

Here's another from LOVE, enjoy!

Love - 05 - Old Man
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Hombre_de_ningun_lugar

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Re: Microscope: Forever Changes (Love)
« Reply #54 on: November 15, 2011, 12:43:51 AM »

Yes, but how would you know if you liked it or not without listening to it or purchasing it? Same can be said about the other 60's bands. Usually you heard a tune or two on the radio, music store, or a friends house and based your decision on that. The internet wasnt always around. Now that it is though, I go searching for deep stuff. Sure makes it a lot easier.

Yes, of course it's much more easier with Internet, especially for a far away guy like me from Argentina. Probably I would never have known about a lot of music I love without Internet.

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I understand what your saying, I really do, but how do you come to the consclusion before trying stuff out? A few people told me that 'Forever Changes' was a masterpiece and I kept seeing its name popping up in discussions so I knew I had to have it. I bought it and when I first listened to it, I thought it was ehhh. It grew on me and now I agree with the status. That doesnt always happen though. Neutral Milk Hotels 'In The Aeroplane Over The Sea' is much daunted like 'Forever Changes' and I cant stand it. Regardless, I think the point i'm trying to make is even if music is from a familiar artist, you still have to experience it to know if your going to like it or not. Its ok to buy the solo efforts. You might just like them.

I think it's nothing against their solo careers, it's just about time. I just don't like most music that came after the 1960's. I dig a few records from the 1970's by 1960's artists like the Who or the Stones but can't stand anything done in the 1980's and afterwards by anybody. So from my point of view, I can't see how someone who really likes the Beatles music can like most of their solo stuff, though that certainly sounds like a paradox. I know I didn't listen to everything, but a proof is enough to know I think. I did listen to the whole Cloud Nine album a couple of times and I truly knew that I hate it. But that's how I feel and we're all different, and that's alright.

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I agree with this too. I'll be the first to say that I think the Beatles were the greatest, but when I toss on stuff from the Kinks, Stones, Byrds, Beach Boys, etc,,,I realize they werent alone.

Well, my point is that a true Beatles fan first should get records by such artists instead of the solo records, if the art is what really matters. Or at least that's what I would recommend to a new Beatles fan.

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I do too, but sometimes you have to go back and see what the big deal was about. I'll throw on a Beatles album every now and then and realize how f***ing good they really were.

That happens to me as well.

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I rate my albums with how enjoyable they are after numerous relistens. I've probably heard 'Forever Changes' a thousand times and I still enjoy the p*ss out that record. I used to love Pink Floyd ecstatically and own all their albums, but now I can only stomach a handful of their songs at best from their entire catalog. Floyd had a huge impact on me years ago, but nothing now. Hey we're different. How cool is that?

It's cool being different and sharing different points of view. But I think you have a great taste in music, I usually love most music you say you like.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 12:46:46 AM by Hombre_de_ningun_lugar »
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Re: Microscope: Forever Changes (Love)
« Reply #55 on: November 15, 2011, 12:53:04 AM »

Because everyone has different preferences and/or tastes in music, that's what makes the world go round! I'm so versatile that I love so many bands in all styles of music.   
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Re: Microscope: Forever Changes (Love)
« Reply #56 on: November 15, 2011, 01:00:45 AM »

Hi Hombre_de_ningun_lugar! What's happening? That's a very interesting point that may be true! Many of the Blues greats always believed that the only way you can sing the Blues is when you are feeling pain within yourself such as a broken heart. Peter Green said some years back that he had to stop singing the Blues because it was too painful. Take care.

Yes, but I think that sadness is just about moments, as well as happiness. We all have sad and happy moments, some people may be more happy than other people, but we all pass for those moments. John surely had sad and happy moments as everybody. I guess sadness is more poetic than happiness, maybe because the deep soul is expressing when one is sad. I did write some songs and my more inspiring moments were when I felt sad.
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Re: Microscope: Forever Changes (Love)
« Reply #57 on: November 15, 2011, 01:08:51 AM »

Yes, but I think that sadness is just about moments, as well as happiness. We all have sad and happy moments, some people may be more happy than other people, but we all pass for those moments. John surely had sad and happy moments as everybody. I guess sadness is more poetic than happiness, maybe because the deep soul is expressing when one is sad. I did write some songs and my more inspiring moments were when I felt sad.

The reason for this is because there is more feelings and emotions in sad and painful songs. You can almost feel the pain in powerful songs.
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Kangaroo Kev

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Re: Microscope: Forever Changes (Love)
« Reply #58 on: November 15, 2011, 11:02:39 PM »

I knew this singer/songwriter years ago, his beloved wife left him and he told me he wrote his best ever songs during that period..
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Re: Microscope: Forever Changes (Love)
« Reply #59 on: November 15, 2011, 11:28:54 PM »

I knew this singer/songwriter years ago, his beloved wife left him and he told me he wrote his best ever songs during that period..

Peter Green was the same way and so was Janis Joplin. Both of these performers sang with such conviction and emotion, you can't help but feel their pain in their music.
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