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Author Topic: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?  (Read 9622 times)

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Ydoll Gwyn

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Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
« Reply #60 on: April 01, 2005, 05:58:57 PM »

Quote from: tkitna

Yesterday and Let It Be will easily outlive the songs mentioned above. Surely, you must see this.


But there's nothing especially deep or interesting or creative about these tunes. YOU might personally have them as favorites, but the tunes, lyrics, are nothing more special than in thousands of other songs.

But Walrus, SFF (for example) are UNIQUE. Remember, the Beatles great reputation as innovators doesn't come from Let It Be, or Penny Lane, or I've Just Seen A Face.
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Bruno

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Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
« Reply #61 on: April 01, 2005, 07:12:22 PM »

Yesterday is waay better that Im the Walrus
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Sondra

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Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
« Reply #62 on: April 01, 2005, 07:36:19 PM »

Quote from: Ydoll_Gwyn

But there's nothing especially deep or interesting or creative about these tunes. YOU might personally have them as favorites, but the tunes, lyrics, are nothing more special than in thousands of other songs.

But Walrus, SFF (for example) are UNIQUE. Remember, the Beatles great reputation as innovators doesn't come from Let It Be, or Penny Lane, or I've Just Seen A Face.

Nothing deep about Yesterday or Let it Be? But Walurs is so deep? He just put a bunch of words together. It's a great song, but if you ask 9 out of 10 non Beatles fans which song they've heard of, I'm sure it wouldn't be I am the Walrus. It's an amazing song, I LOVE it, but it doesn't seem to touch as many people as the other songs. SFF is beautiful lyrically, but what puts it up so much higher than Yesterday or Let it Be? Or Hey Jude, Penny Lane, or Blackbird for that matter. And if you think the innovations came only from Lennon, then you're being biased. He was part of a band, they worked together. A lot of the ideas came from a group effort. But this is exactly what extreme Lennon fans do that makes Paul so paranoid to the point where he has to actually say hey I was there too. And then of course is made to be an egomaniac about it. Which by their own admission they all had that tendency.
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Mairi

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Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
« Reply #63 on: April 01, 2005, 08:32:41 PM »

I Am The Walrus is just a bunch of nonsense crap that John threw together. Yesterday, Hey Jude and Let It Be are highly renowned MASTERPIECES. Yes, masterpieces. Strawberry Fields is also a masterpiece, as are A Day In The Life and Revolution. (As well as Something, Here Comes the Sun, and While My Guitar Gently Weeps) But I Am The Walrus? It's just a nice little song. Nothing that special about it, except for the fact that it's catchy and doesn't mean anything. I never liked it, but I can see why some people would.
You try writing a song like Yesterday, Let It Be, or Hey Jude and let's see what you come up with. Those songs will remain in the social consciousness forever because of their profound lyrics. To claim that there's nothing special about them is preposterous.
If you prefer John's work, that's cool. We all have our own different tastes. But to discredit Paul to the point where you make it seem like John WAS the Beatles is ridiculous. You're doing just the same thing many Paul-haters accuse him of doing towards John. And as Sandra said, Paul tries to set the record straight and goes overboard sometimes. Not his best moment, but I can see why he would be so neurotic about being forgotten.
That's why George hardly mentioned John in I Me Mine- he was sick of being told that he was inferior to Lennon/McCartney and was understandably bitter.
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An Apple Beatle

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Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
« Reply #64 on: April 01, 2005, 08:53:10 PM »

Go Girls!!! Well said. ;)
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Ydoll Gwyn

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Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
« Reply #65 on: April 01, 2005, 09:41:46 PM »

Let's see now. What is I AM THE WALRUS?

We all know about John Lennon's admiration of Lewis Carroll. Lewis Carroll is the author or the Alice books, and many others. A great thread going through the two Alice books, and lots of his other works (eg, The Hunting of the Snark) is "nonsense". By this I don't mean merely silly or stupid things; rather, I mean by "nonsense" a technical term for writing that might have one or more of these features:

*meaningless words and sounds strung together in an apparently meaningful way
*a "take-off" of an established poem (song, story, whatever) using irrelevant words and sounds in place of the "real" ones
*stream of consciousness listing and connecting of events, places, people etc in a way that has internal logic, but no obvious link with reality

Lewis Carroll was a master of "nonsense". Some would claim James Joyce wrote "nonsense". Certainly Edward Lear did, and John Lennon knew about him too.

So: What is I AM THE WALRUS?
The song is one of the great "nonsense" pieces. Nonsense is a difficult genre to do successfully, as it can sound stupid or pretentious very easily.

Further, I AM THE WALRUS is a rarity - a nonsense recording. Why do I say recording? Because not only are the words a "nonsense poem", but the arrangement (instruments, the radio pieces, the choir) all have their "nonsense" features. The whole recording is "nonsense", in the technical sense.

Now, do you see why Walrus might just survive a little longer than Yesterday?
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Ydoll Gwyn

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Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
« Reply #66 on: April 01, 2005, 09:46:26 PM »

Quote from: Mairi
I Am The Walrus is just a bunch of nonsense crap that John threw together. Yesterday, Hey Jude and Let It Be are highly renowned MASTERPIECES. Yes, masterpieces. Strawberry Fields is also a masterpiece, as are A Day In The Life and Revolution. (As well as Something, Here Comes the Sun, and While My Guitar Gently Weeps) But I Am The Walrus? It's just a nice little song. Nothing that special about it, except for the fact that it's catchy and doesn't mean anything. I never liked it, but I can see why some people would.
You try writing a song like Yesterday, Let It Be, or Hey Jude and let's see what you come up with. Those songs will remain in the social consciousness forever because of their profound lyrics. To claim that there's nothing special about them is preposterous.
If you prefer John's work, that's cool. We all have our own different tastes. But to discredit Paul to the point where you make it seem like John WAS the Beatles is ridiculous. You're doing just the same thing many Paul-haters accuse him of doing towards John. And as Sandra said, Paul tries to set the record straight and goes overboard sometimes. Not his best moment, but I can see why he would be so neurotic about being forgotten.
That's why George hardly mentioned John in I Me Mine- he was sick of being told that he was inferior to Lennon/McCartney and was understandably bitter.

People around here seem to forget that I give Paul his dues all the time. I just don't him dues if he hasn't earned them. Kind of like others do to Lennon!

From my other post, I hope you can see why it's ridiculous to call Walrus just a bunch of nonsense crap that John threw together.

And I'm sure you'll forgive me if I say that I find the lyrics of Yesterday, Let It Be etc are NOT profound at all. In fact, for profound lyrics from Paul you have to go to songs like Rigby and For No One.
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Mairi

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Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
« Reply #67 on: April 01, 2005, 10:01:38 PM »

Quote from: Ydoll_Gwyn
Let's see now. What is I AM THE WALRUS?

We all know about John Lennon's admiration of Lewis Carroll. Lewis Carroll is the author or the Alice books, and many others. A great thread going through the two Alice books, and lots of his other works (eg, The Hunting of the Snark) is "nonsense". By this I don't mean merely silly or stupid things; rather, I mean by "nonsense" a technical term for writing that might have one or more of these features:

*meaningless words and sounds strung together in an apparently meaningful way
*a "take-off" of an established poem (song, story, whatever) using irrelevant words and sounds in place of the "real" ones
*stream of consciousness listing and connecting of events, places, people etc in a way that has internal logic, but no obvious link with reality

Lewis Carroll was a master of "nonsense". Some would claim James Joyce wrote "nonsense". Certainly Edward Lear did, and John Lennon knew about him too.

So: What is I AM THE WALRUS?
The song is one of the great "nonsense" pieces. Nonsense is a difficult genre to do successfully, as it can sound stupid or pretentious very easily.

Further, I AM THE WALRUS is a rarity - a nonsense recording. Why do I say recording? Because not only are the words a "nonsense poem", but the arrangement (instruments, the radio pieces, the choir) all have their "nonsense" features. The whole recording is "nonsense", in the technical sense.

Now, do you see why Walrus might just survive a little longer than Yesterday?

Now, I've read both the Alice books, and while I do agree that Lewis Carroll wrote what some call "nonsense', at least he actually gave it a second meaning. There was an actual storyline beneath all the gibberish.
John, on the other hand, wrote Walrus and said- and this is a real quote- "Let the f***ers figure that one out".
Yesterday is a universal song that everyone can relate to.
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Ydoll Gwyn

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Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
« Reply #68 on: April 01, 2005, 10:09:08 PM »

Quote from: Mairi

Now, I've read both the Alice books, and while I do agree that Lewis Carroll wrote what some call "nonsense', at least he actually gave it a second meaning. There was an actual storyline beneath all the gibberish.
John, on the other hand, wrote Walrus and said- and this is a real quote- "Let the f***ers figure that one out".
Yesterday is a universal song that everyone can relate to.

The fact that you use the word "gibberish" shows you don't know what I'm talking about.

The fact that John said "Let the f***ers figure that one out" shows that he may have known that he was writing genuine nonsense. Of course he may not have: but that's common in art. The author's initial intentions often get overtaken by events. Any writer will tell you that!

I don't relate to Yesterday by the way: I find the song a little forced in its sentiment.
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Sondra

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Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
« Reply #69 on: April 01, 2005, 10:19:20 PM »

Well here's John's take on it.


In a 1970 interview Lennon explained what inspired his song:

"We saw the movie in L.A. and the Walrus was a big capitalist that ate all the bleeping oysters. I always had the image of the Walrus in the garden and I loved it, and so I didn't ever check what the Walrus was. He's a bleeping bast**d-that's what he turns out to be. But the way it's written, everybody presumes that means something. I mean even I did. We all just presumed that because I said 'I Am The Walrus' that it means 'I Am God' or something. It's just poetry, but it became symbolic of me."

1980
PLAYBOY: "I am the Walrus."

LENNON: The first line was written on one acid trip one weekend. The second line was written on the next acid trip the next weekend, and it was filled in after I met Yoko. Part of it was putting down Hare Krishna. All these people were going on about Hare Krishna, Allen Ginsberg in particular. The reference to "Element'ry penguin" is the elementary, naive attitude of going around chanting, "Hare Krishna," or putting all your faith in any one idol. I was writing obscurely, a la Dylan, in those days

PLAYBOY: The song is very complicated, musically.

LENNON: It actually was fantastic in stereo, but you never hear it all. There was too much to get on. It was too messy a mix. One track was live BBC Radio -- Shakespeare or something -- I just fed in whatever lines came in.

PLAYBOY: What about the walrus itself?

LENNON: It's from "The Walrus and the Carpenter." "Alice in Wonderland." To me, it was a beautiful poem. It never dawned on me that Lewis Carroll was commenting on the capitalist and social system. I never went into that bit about what he really meant, like people are doing with the Beatles' work. Later, I went back and looked at it and realized that the walrus was the bad guy in the story and the carpenter was the good guy. I thought, Oh, sh*t, I picked the wrong guy. I should have said, "I am the carpenter." But that wouldn't have been the same, would it? [Singing] "I am the carpenter...."

Seems like more of an accident than anything else. The lines coming to him in acid trips, the mistake with the Lewis Carrol poem, etc. Look, I think it's a great song. I think it's innovative, but I also think that simple beautiful poetry is as valid a form of writing and ends up being as remembered as anything else. It's not easy writing that stuff you know simple as it may seem. A seemingly simple line or phrase are the kinds of things that people can most relate to. It invokes feeling. Do you think only poetry that is abstract or surreal gets remembered? Maybe in the most academic circles who are disecting and interpreting this and that. Something Lennon thought was ridiculous. Anyway, if you think the most well known/remembered poems are only ones that follow those examples, well then do what you told Mairi to do: Read.
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Sondra

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Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
« Reply #70 on: April 01, 2005, 10:26:50 PM »

Quote from: Ydoll_Gwyn


I don't relate to Yesterday by the way: I find the song a little forced in its sentiment.

Of course you don't. Forced? It's almost as if he's speaking real life dialogue. A popular technique in writing lyrics. Some that many lyricists practice. (Roger Waters, Bernie Taupin, John Lennon)

I don't even like the song much but I CAN relate to someone singing about looking towards your past at better times.
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Mairi

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Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
« Reply #71 on: April 01, 2005, 10:28:09 PM »

Quote
Anyway, if you think the most well known/remembered poems are only ones that are of that follow those examples, well then do what you told Mairi to do: Read.

Yes, that's true. Look at Emily Dickinson's poetry: It was simple and straightforward. Yet she is known as one of the greatest poets ever.
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Ydoll Gwyn

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Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
« Reply #72 on: April 01, 2005, 10:45:14 PM »

Yes, Sandra, I know all about that: what John says about Walrus, and so on. But John Lennon often went off at the mouth without much going through his brain. You can get an idea of this yourself by reading Carroll's The Walrus & the Carpenter, and you'll see that John had no idea what that poem was on about!

It still remains that I AM THE WALRUS is as I described, even if John was not aware what was happening as he wrote it, and as it developed in the studio. As I implied, works can seem to gather a life of their own, and grow out of control of their authors!

Quote
Maybe in the most academic circles who are disecting and interpreting this and that. Something Lennon thought was ridiculous.
The point you may be missing about my dissection is that I see no meaning (though we know where bits of the lyric came from; it's just that they don't mean anything in the song).


And your bit about Yesterday:
Quote
Of course you don't. Forced? It's almost as if he's speaking real life dialogue. A popular technique in writing lyrics. Some that many lyricists practice. (Roger Waters, Bernie Taupin, John Lennon)
Real life dialogue? Yesterday?! Maybe in your life, not in mine!
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Ydoll Gwyn

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Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
« Reply #73 on: April 01, 2005, 10:47:25 PM »

Quote from: Mairi

Yes, that's true. Look at Emily Dickinson's poetry: It was simple and straightforward. Yet she is known as one of the greatest poets ever.

Good, but surely not one of the greatest ever.
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Bruno

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Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
« Reply #74 on: April 01, 2005, 10:49:39 PM »

yer opinion that is....
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Ydoll Gwyn

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Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
« Reply #75 on: April 01, 2005, 10:50:46 PM »

Quote from: Bruno
yer opinion that is....

It's ALL opinion. Surely we know that.
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Sondra

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Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
« Reply #76 on: April 02, 2005, 03:13:55 AM »

Quote from: Ydoll_Gwyn


And your bit about Yesterday:  Real life dialogue? Yesterday?! Maybe in your life, not in mine!

LOL! What you don't walk around talking in prose! Heh, I meant the way he's telling a simple story. All my troubles seemed so far away, I said something wrong, Why she had to go..etc. Just those sort of sentiments. Kinda like Your Song. I can see someone saying stuff like that, just not in a rhyme. But what the heck do I know really.
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Herecomesyoursun

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Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
« Reply #77 on: April 02, 2005, 03:27:09 PM »

The sun was shining on the sea,
Shining with all his might:
He did his very best to make
The billows smooth and bright--
And this was odd, because it was
The middle of the night.


The moon was shining sulkily,
Because she thought the sun
Had got no business to be there
After the day was done--
"It's very rude of him," she said,
"To come and spoil the fun!"


The sea was wet as wet could be,
The sands were dry as dry.
You could not see a cloud, because
No cloud was in the sky:
No birds were flying overhead--
There were no birds to fly.


The Walrus and the Carpenter
Were walking close at hand;
They wept like anything to see
Such quantities of sand:
"If this were only cleared away,"
They said, "it would be grand!"


"If seven maids with seven mops
Swept it for half a year.
Do you suppose," the Walrus said,
"That they could get it clear?"
"I doubt it," said the Carpenter,
And shed a bitter tear.


"O Oysters, come and walk with us!"
The Walrus did beseech.
"A pleasant walk, a pleasant talk,
Along the briny beach:
We cannot do with more than four,
To give a hand to each."


The eldest Oyster looked at him,
But never a word he said:
The eldest Oyster winked his eye,
And shook his heavy head--
Meaning to say he did not choose
To leave the oyster-bed.


But four young Oysters hurried up,
All eager for the treat:
Their coats were brushed, their faces washed,
Their shoes were clean and neat--
And this was odd, because, you know,
They hadn't any feet.


Four other Oysters followed them,
And yet another four;
And thick and fast they came at last,
And more, and more, and more--
All hopping through the frothy waves,
And scrambling to the shore.


The Walrus and the Carpenter
Walked on a mile or so,
And then they rested on a rock
Conveniently low:
And all the little Oysters stood
And waited in a row.


"The time has come," the Walrus said,
"To talk of many things:
Of shoes--and ships--and sealing-wax--
Of cabbages--and kings--
And why the sea is boiling hot--
And whether pigs have wings."


"But wait a bit," the Oysters cried,
"Before we have our chat;
For some of us are out of breath,
And all of us are fat!"
"No hurry!" said the Carpenter.
They thanked him much for that.


"A loaf of bread," the Walrus said,
"Is what we chiefly need:
Pepper and vinegar besides
Are very good indeed--
Now if you're ready, Oysters dear,
We can begin to feed."


"But not on us!" the Oysters cried,
Turning a little blue.
"After such kindness, that would be
A dismal thing to do!"
"The night is fine," the Walrus said.
"Do you admire the view?


"It was so kind of you to come!
And you are very nice!"
The Carpenter said nothing but
"Cut us another slice:
I wish you were not quite so deaf--
I've had to ask you twice!"


"It seems a shame," the Walrus said,
"To play them such a trick,
After we've brought them out so far,
And made them trot so quick!"
The Carpenter said nothing but
"The butter's spread too thick!"


"I weep for you," the Walrus said:
"I deeply sympathize."
With sobs and tears he sorted out
Those of the largest size,
Holding his pocket-handkerchief
Before his streaming eyes.


"O Oysters," said the Carpenter,
"You've had a pleasant run!
Shall we be trotting home again?'
But answer came there none--
And this was scarcely odd, because
They'd eaten every one.


you have to admit, that is a pretty sweet poem.

However, without a doubt in my mind, Yesterday will be remembered far longer than I Am the Walrus, which will be seen as a novelty of the time period.  Yesterday is timeless.  This goes for let it Be as well.   But would anyone else agree that A Day in the Life will be their most remembered?
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Mairi

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Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
« Reply #78 on: April 02, 2005, 03:29:48 PM »

Yes, I agree that ADITL will probably be their most remembered. Which is a good thing since it was a dual effort on their part.
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tkitna

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Re: Do you think Paul has earned the praises?
« Reply #79 on: April 02, 2005, 07:16:38 PM »

Quote from: Ydoll_Gwyn

But there's nothing especially deep or interesting or creative about these tunes. YOU might personally have them as favorites, but the tunes, lyrics, are nothing more special than in thousands of other songs.

I think 'Yesterday' and 'Let It Be' are very deep, interesting, and creative both lyrically and musically. As for the songs being personal favorites, i'm so burnt out on 'Yesterday' I really cant even explain it. 'Let It Be' is also drifting that way, BUT I recognize the genius when they are played. All i'm saying is in 500 years (yes, thats a long time), if the Beatles are remembered, 'Yesterday' and 'Let It Be' will be two of the definate songs that will be associated with them.

Quote
But Walrus, SFF (for example) are UNIQUE. Remember, the Beatles great reputation as innovators doesn't come from Let It Be, or Penny Lane, or I've Just Seen A Face.

'Penny Lane' is as UNIQUE as 'Walrus' and 'SFF' for sure. I'd challenge anybody to write a song thats compaerable to 'Penny Lane'. In regards to songs that are UNIQUE, whats the basis on this? Are we just talking about the music here and not so much the lyrics? If so, I dont see how 'Penny Lane' cant be mentioned along 'Walrus' and 'SFF'.

(Just to set the record straight, I definately prefer 'Walrus' over 'Yesterday' and 'Let It Be', but I just dont think it will hold up over time as being one of the beatles main remembered songs)
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