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Author Topic: You've Got To Hide Your Love Away + Brian Epstein  (Read 4885 times)

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The Fox Drummer

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You've Got To Hide Your Love Away + Brian Epstein
« on: June 05, 2007, 05:48:27 PM »

I just read somewhere that You've Got To Hide Your Love Away was written for Brian Epstein. Haven't heard that one before. Does anyone know any details on that subject? Looking at the lyrics now, it does make sense if you switch around the pronouns a bit, but I've never read that anywhere else.
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Bobber

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Re: You've Got To Hide Your Love Away + Brian Epstein
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2007, 06:01:06 PM »

It's been said, but probably not true.
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harihead

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Re: You've Got To Hide Your Love Away + Brian Epstein
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2007, 06:46:56 PM »

I've heard that too, FoxD. It does make sense for John to be singing "You've Got To Hide Your Love Away" with Brian in mind, because homosexuality (the act, not the predisposition) was illegal in London at that time. So you can hear it as a sympathetic ballad where John is imagining the difficulties of having to lead this clandestine lifestyle.

Is it a love song from John to Brian? I highly doubt it. Brian was his friend, and John was interested in his lifestyle (like, what's this all about, and how does it work?), but he always seemed extremely het in his relationships to me. Cynthia and Paul always found the gay rumors strange, and I figure they ought to know.
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All you've got to do is choose love.  That's how I live it now.  I learned a long time ago, I can feed the birds in my garden.  I can't feed them all. -- Ringo Starr, Rolling Stone magazine, May 2007<br />

The Fox Drummer

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Re: You've Got To Hide Your Love Away + Brian Epstein
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2007, 09:16:14 PM »

Hmm, I think I agree with you, Harihead. I don't think John was gay either (besides that one Spanish vacation type thing), but I think it might have been a way for him to quietly acknowledge Brian's problems in society. (Quietly and in song form because he made fun of Brian in his presence at every opportunity he got...)
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Kaleidoscope_Eyes

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Re: You've Got To Hide Your Love Away + Brian Epstein
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2007, 10:16:08 PM »

The lyrics do make sense for the song to be about Brian but, yeah like HH, I dont think its song to Brian. Perhaps Brian inspired it... but then the line "how could she say to me love will find a way?" seems out of place, no?  :-/
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Flaming Pie in the Sky

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Re: You've Got To Hide Your Love Away + Brian Epstein
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2007, 10:36:27 PM »

Here's a reference:

Quote
At the time that this was written, it was thought to be a warning to Brian Epstein to keep his homosexual activities hidden as it was illegal in Britain at the time. The opening of the song with John's feelings was a first for him and it became more common in his songs after this.
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harihead

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Re: You've Got To Hide Your Love Away + Brian Epstein
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2007, 01:05:14 AM »

Quote from: 596
but then the line "how could she say to me love will find a way?" seems out of place, no?  :-/
Not really, to me. Obviously John's switched to "he" to "she" to make it sound like a more conventional love song. But if you pretend that this is a song about Brian, this line could refer to any one of Brian's friends or a lover telling him not to give up hope; that love will eventually find him.  I think it's a very sweet sentiment.  This is one of the Beatles songs that I play the most. It's got brilliant words and the guitar part is really fun to play.

What book was your reference in, Flaming Pie in the Sky? I mean, there are Beatles authors and then there are Beatles exploiters, and the shelves are full of them. Even so, the quote doesn't sound particularly suggestive to me.

Quote
The opening of the song with John's feelings was a first for him and it became more common in his songs after this.
All this is saying is that John opened the song with a personal emotion. "...head in hand, turn my back to the wall" absolutely shows the singer's depression and possibly despair.  It's an elegant way of summarizing a crisis of the heart.  I love John's songs that explore this; John had led a troubled life, and this type of emotion ran very strong for him. Thank you, Bob Dylan, for (by example) showing John that he could turn some of his personal emotions into a really terrific song.

I suppose I should add that I don't see a song or a story as autobiographical, unless the writer tells me that it is meant to be taken that way.  I think most creative people take the germ of an idea as their inspiration, and then flesh out the song or story as part of their craft.  That way you get emotions that ring true, while not unduly burdening yourself with what might be happening in your own life. Even a pop star is going to want to retain some of his privacy! Cheers.
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Bobber

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Re: You've Got To Hide Your Love Away + Brian Epstein
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2007, 07:36:16 AM »

Quote from: 669
I don't think John was gay either (besides that one Spanish vacation type thing)

Oh, don't believe that.
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Kevin

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Re: You've Got To Hide Your Love Away + Brian Epstein
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2007, 08:24:11 AM »

I think without a doubt John was at the least sexually "confused.". Too much smoke for there not to be a fire. And not just with Brian - gay rumours have always followed John around - and not just connected with Brian either.
And that "one spanish vacation thing" - so John leaping into bed for a week with an older man can be dismissed as what - just silly old John? He was a laugh eh?. Oh, not going to try that again. And of the other men who have spoken of sleeping with John - do we dismiss them all as liers. Because John was a Beatle?
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Bobber

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Re: You've Got To Hide Your Love Away + Brian Epstein
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2007, 08:36:27 AM »

Could be the other way round. Only because Brian was homosexual and they went on holiday together, it is certain that they had sex? So far it is nothing but smoke. I don't see any evidence of a fire.
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Kevin

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Re: You've Got To Hide Your Love Away + Brian Epstein
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2007, 09:05:58 AM »

Maybe, but unless someone has film of John in the act we will never have definate proof. And I know burden of proof is on the accuser (me) and that I can't front up with that.
But.... the circumstantial stuff
-his remarkably close relationship with Stuart (all those ten page letters )
-his holiday with Brian
-his little affair with the very gay Mr Royston and Polythene "Pam".
-Alun williams book.
-the various men who have outed him (admittedly their motives could be disputed.
-his marriage to a woman who was clearly a mother substitute.

If it was anyone else I'd probably think there was something in it.
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Kevin

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Re: You've Got To Hide Your Love Away + Brian Epstein
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2007, 04:02:08 PM »

We've had this conversation before:
http://www.dmbeatles.com/forums/b-songs/m-1106329907/s-new/
And bugger if it wasn't started by me. I was in short pants then.
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BlueMeanie

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Re: You've Got To Hide Your Love Away + Brian Epstein
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2007, 04:11:55 PM »

Quote from: 185
And bugger if it wasn't started by me. I was in short pants then.

John would have liked that! ;D
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harihead

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Re: You've Got To Hide Your Love Away + Brian Epstein
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2007, 04:34:13 PM »

Quote from: 185
-Alun williams book.
-the various men who have outed him (admittedly their motives could be disputed.
...
If it was anyone else I'd probably think there was something in it.
Wow, this is the first I've heard about "various men who have outed him". Could you tell me your reference, please? I'd like to learn more. Also, what does Williams say?

This is an interesting topic to me, because I have a friend who cannot decide if she is het, bi or gay. I have always been ragingly het, but I have come to understand that sexual orientation is more of a spectrum than a case of either/or. Even things we traditionally think of as black & white have gradations. Life/Death- how many people are brought back after being clinically dead? (A fair number; my sister was an OR nurse.) Or Boy/Girl -- hermaphrodites, anyone? I figure they must have a very tough time in the world, since gender is so basic to our self definition and how other people refer to us. (They're going to say "he" or "she"-- pick one.)

So it's not surprising to me if John was intrigued by homosexuality or experimented with it. I'm told a lot of people do. Didn't you ever go through that age where your friends/parents/teachers said, "It's okay if you're attracted to someone of the same sex?" Such a notion floored me (ragingly het, remember?) but apparently it's common enough that they discuss it in school. Considering the variety of experience that many people crave, it doesn't strike me as inconceivable that John was pulled in this direction or experimented with it. But he defined himself as het, and had tons of het relationships, so calling him "gay" just doesn't work. At most he'd be bi. Anyway, just my thoughts.
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All you've got to do is choose love.  That's how I live it now.  I learned a long time ago, I can feed the birds in my garden.  I can't feed them all. -- Ringo Starr, Rolling Stone magazine, May 2007<br />

Kevin

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Re: You've Got To Hide Your Love Away + Brian Epstein
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2007, 04:42:07 PM »

I can't provide quotes or names so excuse me if I'm non commital.(and this is all off the top of my head)
There was a dancer who said he spent a night with John.
A New York singer songwriter has also said that he and John had an illicit affair.
Alan Williams says ( in a very non sensational way) that one of the four enjoyed the company of gentleman in Hamburg. He gave no names, and at the time I thought it was George.
I know not one of the things on their own mean anything, but taken all together it does. And what does John mean by this 1980 quote about him and Brian (remembering his wife was sat next to him):
"I went on holiday to Spain with Brian... which started all the rumors that he and I were having a love affair. Well, it was almost a love affair, but not quite. It was never consummated. But we did have a pretty intense relationship."

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Kevin

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Re: You've Got To Hide Your Love Away + Brian Epstein
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2007, 04:55:09 PM »

Quote from: 551
So it's not surprising to me if John was intrigued by homosexuality or experimented with it. I'm told a lot of people do.

Now that would be a fun poll.
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komakino

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Re: You've Got To Hide Your Love Away + Brian Epstein
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2007, 05:25:24 PM »

Quote from: 551
So it's not surprising to me if John was intrigued by homosexuality or experimented with it. I'm told a lot of people do. Didn't you ever go through that age where your friends/parents/teachers said, "It's okay if you're attracted to someone of the same sex?" Such a notion floored me (ragingly het, remember?) but apparently it's common enough that they discuss it in school. Considering the variety of experience that many people crave, it doesn't strike me as inconceivable that John was pulled in this direction or experimented with it. But he defined himself as het, and had tons of het relationships, so calling him "gay" just doesn't work. At most he'd be bi. Anyway, just my thoughts.

i agree 100%  :)
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harihead

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Re: You've Got To Hide Your Love Away + Brian Epstein
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2007, 08:51:22 PM »

*blows komakino a kiss*

Quote from: 185
Now that would be a fun poll.
Who would answer it?  :D
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All you've got to do is choose love.  That's how I live it now.  I learned a long time ago, I can feed the birds in my garden.  I can't feed them all. -- Ringo Starr, Rolling Stone magazine, May 2007<br />

Kaleidoscope_Eyes

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Re: You've Got To Hide Your Love Away + Brian Epstein
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2007, 09:32:45 PM »

The line "If she's gone I can't go on" seems a bit... hmm-like. Even if you change the she to he, it wouldnt be the end of the world for Brian if his partner leaves him because the Beatles were his passion. Unless the partner is John.  
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harihead

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Re: You've Got To Hide Your Love Away + Brian Epstein
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2007, 11:03:03 PM »

True, but you'd have to read the lyric as a literal event in John's life. I don't think it was meant to be a literal description of anything. I think he took the inspiration and composed a pop song out of it-- that means basically a boy/girl love song.

Of course this is just my interpretation. It's my experience that, when people write, they typically bend the words and ideas to fit their creation. It's not like a news report. "He blew his mind out in a car" is not a literal description of how Tara Browne died. Yes, he died in a car crash, but he did not blow out his mind, he hit a parked van. John crafted the words to make his song more effective.
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All you've got to do is choose love.  That's how I live it now.  I learned a long time ago, I can feed the birds in my garden.  I can't feed them all. -- Ringo Starr, Rolling Stone magazine, May 2007<br />
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