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Author Topic: Anti-Americans  (Read 13494 times)

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Sondra

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Re: Anti-Americans
« Reply #40 on: October 27, 2007, 08:49:57 PM »

I've always respected Vonnegut as an author, but he had some pretty dim views about human beings in general.
Especially toward the end. And his own personal experiences in the war jaded him against his own country. He never left though as far as I know. That's always curious.  ::)
Here's something from one of your countrymen that reflects some of my own feelings. As you say. Either way, my original point has been completely missed.

Anti-Americanism Is Racist Envy
Paul Johnson, eminent British historian and author.

Anti-Americanism is the prevailing disease of intellectuals today. Like other diseases, it doesn't have to be logical or rational. But, like other diseases, it has a syndrome--a concurrent set of underlying symptoms that are also causes.

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An Apple Beatle

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Re: Anti-Americans
« Reply #41 on: October 28, 2007, 05:38:32 PM »

^How much did he get paid to fashion that nonsense?! lol :P

I do see what you are saying Sandra though & thanks for the insight on Vonegut. It's all intereting stuff.  :)
The whole EU thing is a shambles I must confess.
I must find out more about Paul Johnson,,,,,,eminent? Sounds like he is making a good living feeding the need for that opinion.  ;D
Maybe it's easy for people to confuse anti-war with anti-americanism? Just another ponderer to throw into the pot.
My brother is now back from Afghanistan thankfully. :)
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Sondra

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Re: Anti-Americans
« Reply #42 on: October 29, 2007, 05:18:36 AM »

Dude, it's just more ramblings from another half senile old man. There's always someone with a counter arguement is all and I wasn't talking politics. All I was saying when I started this thread is that I think it sucks that people think it's okay to call Americans derogitory names in response to them not liking a song or not liking a joke. I mean, somehow it's become okay to completely insult Americans and because of all the guilt Americans either just ignore it or insult themselves. It's just pure hatred. Or like someone else on this thread said and that writer I quoted said, a form of racism. Why should that be okay? That's all I was asking. I said from the beginning I wasn't talking about politics. I don't think I confuse peoples hate for the war with pure bigotry. Here's a comment from YouTube: "America is falling down around your ears and you're all too busy blaming each other to even notice it. You're all overly sensitive about people making jibes at you... massively insecure race of people with no friends in or outside you're own borders." Now what does that have to do with being anti-war? So whatever. It's become a moot point.

On a more positive note, I'm happy that your brother is back and safe. I agree with you about this war being nonsensical and it's sad that not all of the families with loved ones over there are as lucky. But that is another issue and has many threads already devoted to it.
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An Apple Beatle

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Re: Anti-Americans
« Reply #43 on: October 29, 2007, 10:01:47 AM »

Thanks for the good wishes Sandra. The anti-war & anti American theory was only that...Not aimed at you but something worth a mention. I mean I never questioned anti this or that until this thread and got myself in a right posting exchange with you to discover that perhaps thats what I was feeling.
It's always better if I button it anyway! lol  :X x
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Kevin

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Re: Anti-Americans
« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2007, 10:46:30 AM »

Re Sandra's comment "Although Americans are seen as highly materialistic consumers, they are also despised and feared for their spiritual interests, their participation in religious worship and their subscription to creeds of morality. Europeans see no inconsistency in their condemnation of the U.S. for being at one and the same time paganly unethical and morally zealous. "
I think bewilderment would be a better word. how is it that the most technologically advanced nation on earth is talking about teaching creationism against evolution and banning scientific research. It seems such a backward step. You're the nation that fostered minds like Einstein and Hubble. religion, in western europe at least, is dead in the water.
And i would point out that when Britain was the world superpower US views towards it weren't exactly charirtable. I think it comes with the territory. Bobber summed it up so well with his "tall trees catch the most wind" quote.
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Sondra

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Re: Anti-Americans
« Reply #45 on: October 29, 2007, 04:56:08 PM »

Quote from: 185
Re Sandra's comment "Although Americans are seen as highly materialistic consumers, they are also despised and feared for their spiritual interests, their participation in religious worship and their subscription to creeds of morality. Europeans see no inconsistency in their condemnation of the U.S. for being at one and the same time paganly unethical and morally zealous. "
I think bewilderment would be a better word. how is it that the most technologically advanced nation on earth is talking about teaching creationism against evolution and banning scientific research. It seems such a backward step. You're the nation that fostered minds like Einstein and Hubble. religion, in western europe at least, is dead in the water.
And i would point out that when Britain was the world superpower US views towards it weren't exactly charirtable. I think it comes with the territory. Bobber summed it up so well with his "tall trees catch the most wind" quote.

Don't forget, I didn't make the statement. Just quoted it. The whole religion thing has been baffling to ourselves as well. We have a puritan foundation that we just cannot seem to shake. I think that's where the root of it comes from. But the whole teaching creationism is not allowed in public schools anymore as far as I know. I think it's even gone as far as not being able to say the "one nation under God" line in the pledge of allegiance in some places and having to say happy holidays instead of Merry Christmas. Which I personally think is ridiculous. But either way, we've come a long way since the Scopes trial. But why do you see religion being dead as a positive thing? Don't you think it teaches values in a way? I think some people need it. I'm not religious myself, but I did get something from it growing up. Having religion doesn't always mean being fanatical in your beliefs.

I agree with Bobber's quote as well and it makes sense. I know why we are disliked. That's not my issue at all. My issue is: Can I enjoy looking up a person or video without being rudely insulted????? There's a way to get a point across without being nasty. That's all. Really.
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Kevin

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Re: Anti-Americans
« Reply #46 on: October 29, 2007, 05:21:21 PM »

I have mixed feelings about religion, so I can't say it's demise is positive. Just making an observation really, that because it's dead here (be that positive or negative) it makes it hard for us to understand its resurgence in the US.
I'm on your side on this one. If its any consolotion we give the French just as much stick. I think people who presume to know america based on what they see on the telly are misguided. There's that old saying - what people don't understand they fear, and what they fear they attack.
You know I think there is a cultural divide between us and you, but I would never make a judgement call on what is better or worse. They're just different.
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Sondra

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Re: Anti-Americans
« Reply #47 on: October 29, 2007, 07:33:06 PM »

You're awesome Kevin.  :)
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pc31

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Re: Anti-Americans
« Reply #48 on: October 29, 2007, 10:43:21 PM »

i read an article on the guy who invented the fins for the two atom bombs dropped on japan,fat man and little boy....he is proud of his invention and to be an american...while i don't share his veiws i can appreciate that his invention helped our cause...we had to fight and scratch to get to where we are at because there are so many different veiws here in america....i won't relate the whole triaid i layed on beatle ed(erin)because i started a topic called oh no another bloody american and she thought i was being non supportive of the 9-11 attacks...i wasn't and told her that america was built on the bones of my ancestors...i said more but it was butality misdirected....america is what it is because of unity...people sometimes need a 9-11 to wake them up..let's hope it never goes that far again here...

BlueMeanie

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Re: Anti-Americans
« Reply #49 on: October 31, 2007, 01:40:04 PM »

Quote from: 284
people sometimes need a 9-11 to wake them up..let's hope it never goes that far again here...

Very true. Look no further than the unity showed by the people of London during The Blitz in WWII. Or the massive home support of the British Troops during the Faulklands conflict. People pull together when in conflict, and close ranks when under attack. It becomes a very patriotic time, for any nation, and any critisism is taken to heart. Such a mass outpouring of patriotism is often perceived as brashness and arrogance, and generally, Americans have been wrongly critisised in that department.

Britain suffers from two separate, but linked complexes; inferiority, and identity. The Empire is gone, Britain is not 'Great' anymore. We lost The War of Independence, and relied heavily on America to support us in two European Wars. In place of it's Empire, Britain now finds itself under the watchful eye of the EU. Something it has never really come to terms with, or for that matter, fully embraced. They fear they'll start to lose their identity if they change their currency to Euro's (the Danes are the same in this respect), drink half litres instead of pints, and travel in kilometres instead of miles. It doesn't want to let go of it's once great past, and rely on other nations, even in partnership.

America, on the other hand, is a confident, thriving, multi-cultural society. That it sometimes pushes it's weight a little too much is to be understood, not critisised. Should we ignore the plight of people in countries led by dictatoship? Should we really think that it's out of our hands, and none of our business? Maybe we should be thanking the most powerful nation on Earth for having the balls to try to do something about it.

Jealousy is a very bad thing, and the Brits have it in spadefulls when it comes to America. They seem to have forgotten what they were like in the past, and indeed seem to have no inkling as to how they are perceived by the rest of Europe. It's time some people grew up and realised that actually, we have a lot to thank America for.
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Kevin

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Re: Anti-Americans
« Reply #50 on: October 31, 2007, 02:08:09 PM »

Quote from: 483

Very true. Look no further than the unity showed by the people of London during The Blitz in WWII. Or the massive home support of the British Troops during the Faulklands conflict. People pull together when in conflict, and close ranks when under attack.

Totally agree. A canny leader may even engineer such a situation. Putin in Chechna perhaps. The trick of course is to make sure you win. The Argentian junta attacked The Falklands to bolster its home standing and fell because it lost.
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BlueMeanie

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Re: Anti-Americans
« Reply #51 on: October 31, 2007, 02:52:46 PM »

Quote from: 185

Totally agree. A canny leader may even engineer such a situation. Putin in Chechna perhaps. The trick of course is to make sure you win. The Argentian junta attacked The Falklands to bolster its home standing and fell because it lost.

And wasn't it just what Maggie needed at the time, to improve her dwindling support.
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An Apple Beatle

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Re: Anti-Americans
« Reply #52 on: October 31, 2007, 04:28:19 PM »

To think that Britain as a nation are percieved as jealous though is something I cannot identify with personally at all. I am someone with no parents or grandparents though & of mixed parental & geographical nationality. I also live on the Isle of Wight (Slightly detached from the UK). The country I live on infact follows much of what America does, as did The Beatles. I personally would not be what I attempt to percieve I am without American music & free expression, as much as I would not be without other empires that have brought progress to humanity. BM you do put it well and like Kevin, I agree with much of it. Where is this post colonial jealousy coming from though other than randoms on unsolicited websites? Who/what defines it? I am intrigued to know.

I think what Im getting at is, to be percieved in such a way can make people very defensive and therefore the negative cycle continues. People not neccersarily that way become misunderstood in their response to the point of hatred to a fellow human being. We can never trace who threw the first stone. I guess I just want to be Mowgli from the jungle book and not really face it at all, as it is sooo hard to trust much anymore. I miss a simple life. You guys are very informative too btw, thank you.....It's all enlightenment, perhaps at least for us here.  :)
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Kevin

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Re: Anti-Americans
« Reply #53 on: October 31, 2007, 04:44:40 PM »

I see it like this. As recently as my parents generation Britain was the major economic, military and cultural power on the planet. It knew its place in the world and what it was about.
In the blink of an eye that was all gone (has any empire vanished as fast?) Now where does Britain belong? Do we forsake any pretence as a dominant force in world affairs and go it alone, and become another Norway? Do we side with europe or cozy up with the americans? I don't think anyone knows.
I think Britain is jealous of america's wealth and power. People constantly knock them as insular, brash, and uncultured. The whole "have a nice day" thing is mercilessly mocked, as if sullen english indifference is somehow preferable. Brits are pretty disdainful of most foreigners (as probably are all cutures to outsiders) but seem to reserve most venom for americans. For the sake of brevity I'd say a lot of that stems from a hidden jealousy. Maybe in america's success we see our own failures.
I need a smoke.
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An Apple Beatle

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Re: Anti-Americans
« Reply #54 on: October 31, 2007, 05:07:31 PM »

you see it well jedi. lol

I'll go along with George Clinton - One nation Under A Groove!
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Kevin

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Re: Anti-Americans
« Reply #55 on: October 31, 2007, 05:37:12 PM »

Quote from: 483

And wasn't it just what Maggie needed at the time, to improve her dwindling support.

I'm currently reading "Their Finest Hour" about Britain in late 1940. It seems Churchill doubted the Germans seriously intended to invade (which was correct) but that he deliberately played up the threat. It seems he thought a little fear would do the people some good, especially as there were many in his government and in the media who doubted the wisedom  of  refusing to negotiate. Sounds a tad familiar.
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BlueMeanie

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Re: Anti-Americans
« Reply #56 on: October 31, 2007, 06:41:22 PM »

Quote from: 15
To think that Britain as a nation are percieved as jealous though is something I cannot identify with personally at all.

Maybe jealousy is the wrong term to use, but I think envy definitely creeps in there. America fears no-one, and is beholden to no-one. The kids have it instilled in them at an early age that America is great, they are the best. They grow up with confidence second to none. Whereas Britain used to be the best, and now needs Europe, as opposed to Europe needing it. Many people in Britain have become dissatisfied with the country. I meet many of them that now live here, and wouldn't go back. Are they going to bring their kids up to think Britain is great? In contrast, the Americans I meet can't wait to get home.
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An Apple Beatle

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Re: Anti-Americans
« Reply #57 on: October 31, 2007, 10:52:31 PM »

For all the people of the world.
Af0piTceE2o
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Sondra

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Re: Anti-Americans
« Reply #58 on: October 31, 2007, 11:22:17 PM »

That HAS to be a Sesame Street episode from the seventies. That's what it was like back then anyway. Too bad Jesse turned out to be a fraud. He went from that to using phrases like "himey town." That's always dissapointing. But it is a good message. Most of his generation turned out to be all talk though didn't they?
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An Apple Beatle

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Re: Anti-Americans
« Reply #59 on: October 31, 2007, 11:49:32 PM »

It is Sesame street. It is a shame about the right honourable. lol
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