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Author Topic: Yoko Ono  (Read 8615 times)

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oldbrownshoe

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Re: Yoko Ono
« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2014, 05:38:32 AM »

Yikes, Yoko gets a bad rap.
I really like the weird 60s stuff (the weirder the better, anything that steers away from 'rock') but I have to say that I've never really dug 'her' weird 60s stuff. I don't dig Andy Warhol either.

I chanced in a charity shop a few years ago on a run from 1966 to 1972 (1968 was missing, other than that it was complete) of a magazine called 'Art & Artists' which was all about the Modern Art scene of the 60s and, sure enough, in one of the early issues, there was a advertisement for the Indica exhibition where John was supposed to have met Yoko.
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Bingo Bongo

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Re: Yoko Ono
« Reply #41 on: June 13, 2015, 07:56:12 PM »

I seriously doubt that the reason why people don't like her music is because they perceive her as having played a role in the Beatles' breakup.


I still blame Yoko for the breakup of the Plastic Ono Bandicon_cool
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fanofthefab4

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Re: Yoko Ono
« Reply #42 on: December 02, 2015, 02:24:39 AM »

I gave this question a lot of thought as well.
I've known about Yoko for 36 years. In those 36 years, I've heard all the stories, I've read all the books, forums, etc. People hate her. People say give her a chance, she was John's wife and he loved her why can't we do the same?

I think she was a manipulator. I don't think she was any good for John and she certainly wasn't good for the Beatles. She was on a personal mission. She wanted fame and she wanted notoriety. She had tried and failed and failed again up to the point where she met John at the Indica gallery.
She claims she didn't know the Beatles, the biggest sensation in the same scene she was trying to make a name for herself in. Really.

Yoko didn't cause the breakup of the Beatles but she certainly was the accelerant. Maybe John used Yoko a little bit too. He was getting disenchanted with the Beatles even before he met Yoko.  Yoko helping to break the band apart did some of the dirty work for him. Maybe I'm reaching a little with that one, but it could have some merit.

I'll never know what John saw in Yoko because I think John was a mentally f***ed up man at that time. He was also brilliantly talented which is why we loved him and I think by the time the end of the 70's rolled around he started getting it together but she had a crazy brain herself and I just never liked the woman and I do blame her for helping break up the Beatles.

I see her now as an opportunist and I think it sucks that Johns legacy is left in her hands as well as 1/4 of the Beatles legacy. She uses both to keep herself relevant.

Ahh. Yoko sucks.  ;D Sorry John!



This large amount of information isn't just to debunk the inaccurate things you said about Yoko and her being bad for John,but to anyone here there and everywhere who has these same unfortunate misperceptions.


John Lennon is a great example of people can change and are not fixed to be a certain way as a man or a woman.Yoko changed John into a much better person as a pro-feminist man and the feminist changes *are* for the better,and many pro-feminist men have recognized this too! They say it has freed them and allowed them to develop and express more of all of the shared common *human* traits,emotions,behaviors,abilities and reduce and prevent male violence against women and children etc. Definitions of "masculine" and "feminine" differ across time periods,and in different societies.
 
 
 
John Lennon is a great example of how feminism changing limited artificial gender definitions and roles,changed him for the much better. John as a child and teenager had a lot of traumas that permanently psychologically damaged him,but because of his and Yoko's beautiful loving relationship,and as he said she was a feminist before he met her,(and he said that because she was a feminist before he met her,they were going to have to have a 50/50 equal relationship which he never had before) he went in to primal scream therapy and Yoko went with him and he dealt with all of his pain and anger for the very first time at age 29.
 
 
 
When John was a young guy,he was often drunk getting into fist fights with men,hitting women,and womanizing including cheating on his girlfriends and then his first wife Cynthia.Of course Paul,George and Ringo did the same with all of the groupies all 4 of them had while touring from 1963-1966. I hadn't watched these Mike Douglas shows in years until December 2010 when it was the 30th anniversary of John's tragic crazy murder.
 
 
 
Out of the 5 Mike Douglas shows that John and Yoko co-hosted for a week that was taped in January 1972 and aired in February,a young criminal lawyer Rena Uviller(she went on to become a Supreme Court Judge) who worked with juveniles, and she,Mike Douglas,John and Yoko were discussing the then very recent women's liberation movement. George Carlin was on too.
 
 
 
Rena said,she agrees with Yoko,that the idea of Women's lib is to liberate all of us,and she said ,I mean we could talk hours on the way men really suffer under the sex role definitions.Yoko agreed with what she said too. Rena said that men don't really realize they have only to gain from Women's Lib,and that she thinks that maybe with a little more propaganda we can convince them.
 
 
 
John then said,yeah there is a lot to gain from it,just the fact that you can relax and not have to play that male role,he said we can do that,and he said that I can be weak,( but notice how then in a male dominated gender divided,gender stereotyped,sexist society,and even unfortunately still now in a lot of ways,the "female" role was defined as the weak one,and the male role as the strong one) I don't have to protect her all the time and play you know that super hero,I don't have to play that,she allows me to be weak sometimes and for me to cry,and for her to be the strong one,and for me to be the weak one. John then said,and it really is a great relief,after 28 years of trying to be tough,you know trying to show them,I don't give a da*n and I'm this and I'm that,to be able to relax.and just be able to say,OK I'm no tough guy forget it.
 
 
 
 
Rena then said,I think in some funny way,I think girls even as children,have a greater lattitude because a little girl can be sort of frilly and feminine or she can be a tomboy and it's acceptable,but a little boy if he's not tossing that football,there's a lot of pressure on him.John said,there's a lot of pressure,not to show emotion,and he said that there was a lot of pressure on me not to be an artist,to be a chemist and he said he discussed this on another Mike Douglas episode.
 
 
 
 
Rena said that unfortunately some of the leaders in the Women's Liberation movement fall victim to being spokesmen,for Women's Lib, and yet at least in public personality they seem to really have a certain amount of contempt for the hair curled housewife and there is a kind of sneering contempt,and she said I think it's a measure of their own lack of liberation.And Yoko said it's snobbery,and Rena said yeah,they really don't like other women,but I'm sympathetic,and Mike Douglas then said a sexist woman-hating statement,saying,well women don't like other women period.Rena said,no see that's very unliberated and Yoko said, in response to what Mike Douglas said,that's not true,that's not true.And John said,you see they are brought up to
compete with men.
 
 
 
 
Yoko said that even though in Japan they say they don't have much of a woman problem and women already had some liberation,there is still a long way to go that she really agrees with Rena that so many female liberation movement people basically hate women,and we have to first start to understand women and love them whether they are housewives or not,and she said that snobbery is very bad and we have to somehow find out a way to co-existing with men,and she asked Rena don't you think so and she said most definitely. George Carlin said,that actually many successful women are acting out male roles just like a lot of blacks think they escaped are acting out white roles.John also said that he thinks that women have to try twice as hard as to make it as men,and he said you know they have to be on their toes much more than a man.
 
 
 
 
On another Mike Douglas episode from the same week,former actress and acclaimed film maker Barbara Loden was on and Yoko had requested her as a guest.John asked her ,Did you have any problems working with the men,you know like giving them instructions and things like that and Barbara said,I did, but I think it was because I was afraid that they would not accept what I said,and I wasn't quite that authoritative in my own self.John said it's certainly a brave thing to do,and Yoko said it is.
 
 
 
 
Mike Douglas asked Yoko if John's attitude had changed much towards her since The Female Liberation Movement,and at first Yoko says John's attitude from the beginning was the same,and that they met on that level.John then says,twice, I was a male chauvinist and Yoko says,yes he was a male chauvinist but,and then John says,Can I say how you taught me,and Yoko says yes.John says,How I did it in my head was,would I ask Paul or George,or would I treat them the way I would treat a woman? John then said,it's a very simple thing maybe it's fetch that or do that ,and I started thinking if I said that to them,they'd say come on get it yourself,and if you put your wife or your girl friend in the position of your best friend,and say now would I say that to him,then you know when you're treading on some delicate feelings.
 
 
 
 
 
Mike Douglas said years later that after this week of John and Yoko co-hosting his show,many young people who had never watched his show before,(and his main audience was middle America and people older than their 20's and even mostly their 30's) told him they loved the show,and that it was great and his ratings went up high for those shows.Even if John didn't always live up to his feminist ideals and beliefs in his personal life,(although he did with Yoko because of her and this why and how he emotionally evolved into a caring,nurturing,house husband and father to Yoko and Sean),just the fact that he spoke out as a man in support of the feminist movement on a popular TV show back in early 1972 when most of the sexist male dominated woman-hating society looked down at it and considered it crazy which in some ways it's still unfortunately wrongly misunderstood(and it's really the male dominated,sexist,woman-hating society that has always been so wrong and crazy!),and the fact that John was (and still is) greatly admired and influential to many young people male and female,he did *a lot* to legitimize it and show it was rational,reasonable,needed and right!
 
 
 
 
A few months later he was performing Woman Is The Ni**er Of The World on The Dick Cavett Show and then months after that live in Madison Square Garden.In his very last radio interview done by Dave Sholin etc from RKO Radio just hours before he was tragically shot and killed, John said I'm more feminist now than I was when I sang Woman Is The N**ger,I was intellectually feminist then but now I feel as though at least I've put not my own money,but my body where my mouth is and I'm living up to my own preachings as it were.
 

 
He also said what is this BS men are this way, women are that way,we're all human.He had also said that he comes from the macho school of pretense of course *all* men really are they are just too conditioned all of their lives to realize and admit it.And he said that men are trained to be like they are in the army,and that it's more like that in England but he knows it's this way over here too,he said that they are taught as boys and men don't react,don't feel,don't cry,and he said he thinks that's what screwed us all up and that he thinks it's time for a change.
 
 
 
 
In his September 1980 Newsweek interview the interviewer said to John aren't you the guy who said in 1963 that women should be obscene and not heard,and John said yes and I'm thankful to Yoko for the feminist education.
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fanofthefab4

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Re: Yoko Ono
« Reply #43 on: December 02, 2015, 02:26:53 AM »

 
Mike Douglas also said to John and Yoko,You're both so different,you had such different childhoods. John said,it's incredible isn't it? Yoko said,Yes! Mike asked,What do you think has attracted you to each other? Yoko said,We're very similar.John then said,She came from a Japanese upper-middle class family.Her parents were bankers and all that jazz,very straight.He said they were trying to get her off with an ambassador when she was 18.You know,now is the time you marry the ambassador and we get all settled. I come from a an upper-working class family in Liverpool,the other end of the world. John then said,we met but our minds are so similar,our ideas are so similar.It was incredible that we could be so alike from different enviornments,and I don't know what it is,but we're very similar in our heads.And we look alike too!
 
 

Mike also asked John about his painful childhood,and how his father left him when he was 5,and John said how he only came back into his life when he was successful and famous(20 years later!),and John said he knew that I was living all those years in the same house with my auntie,but he never visited him.He said when he came back into his life all those years later,he looked after his father for the same amount of time he looked after him,about 4 years.
 
 
 
He also talked about how his beloved mother Julia,who encouraged his music by teaching him to play the banjo,got hit and killed by a car driven by an off duty drunk cop when John was only 17 and just getting to have a realtionship with her after she had given him away to be raised by her older sister Mimi when he was 5.
 
 
 
And John also said,And in spite of all that,I still don't have a hate-the-pigs attitude or hate-cops attitude.He then said, I think everybody's human you know,but it was very hard for me at that time,and I really had a chip on my shoulder,and it still comes out now and then,because it's a strange life to lead .He then said,But in general ah,I've got my own family now ...I got Yoko and she made up for all that pain.
 
 
 
 
John's psychologist Dr. Arthur Janov told Mojo Magazine in 2000( parts of this interview is on a great UK John Lennon fan site,You Are The Plastic Ono Band) that John had as much pain as he had ever seen in his life,and he was a psychologist for at least 18 years when John and Yoko saw him in 1970! He said John was a very dedicated patient. He also said that John left therapy too early though and that they opened him up,but didn't get a chance to put him back together again and Dr. Janov told John he need to finish the therapy,he said because of the immigration services and he thought Nixon was after him,he said we have to get out of the country.John asked if he could send a therapist to Mexico with him,and Dr. Janov told him we can't do that because they had too many patients to take care of,and he said they cut the therapy off just as it started really,and we were just getting going.

 
 
Also this great article by long time anti-sexist,anti-men's violence,anti-pornography former all star high school football player and author of the great important 2006 book,The Macho Paradox:How Some Men Hurt women And How All Men Can Help, Jackson Katz.John Lennon on Fatherfood,Feminism,and Phony Tough Guy Posturing
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jackson-katz/john-lennon-on-fatherhood_b_800333.html
 
 
 
 
Also Cynthia  Lennon is quoted in the great John Lennon biography Lennon,by award winning music journalist and former editor of The Melody Maker Magazine and good friend of John's for 18 years,Ray Coleman as saying somethings like she knew as soon as she saw John and Yoko together she knew that she lost him,and that it was a meeting of the minds and that she knew that they were right for each other.She also said that she told John before he started his relationship with Yoko that she sees and incedible similarity between him and Yoko and said to him that there is something about her that is just like you.She told him that he may say that she's this crazy woman etc and that he's not interested in her,but that she can see more into John's future with Yoko then he can.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2015, 12:54:53 AM by fanofthefab4 »
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fanofthefab4

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Re: Yoko Ono
« Reply #44 on: December 02, 2015, 02:32:27 AM »

Before John met Yoko,John used to be a psychologically messed up angry sexist,pig,guy,who had fist fights with men,hit women,and like Paul,George and Ringo was a terrible cheating womanizer until he met Yoko who changed him so much for the better into a feminist nurturing house husband and father!


In this January 1971 interview with Red Mole John says that Yoko was well into liberation before he met her and that she had to fight her way through a man's world and he said  the art world is completely dominated by men and said  so Yoko was full of revolutionary zeal when they met. Then John said there was never any question about it  that they had to have a 50-50 relationship or there was no relationship and he said he was quick to learn and he said that Yoko did an article in Nova more than two years back in which she said Woman is the ni**er of the world.He also said that it's very subtle how you're taught male superiority.
 
 
http://www.beatlesinterviews.org/db1971.0121.beatles.html


And nobody even mentions that Yoko never re-married in all these 35 years out of her devotion to John who would have wanted her to go on with her life the best she could and try to be happy again in a new relationship.And poor Yoko was right there and saw John get shot 4 times dying in front of her.




Also many years ago a woman radio DJ ,I don't remember her name,was asked what she thought about Yoko and she said something like,she likes anyone who can turn a sexist Northern Liverpool guy into a feminist! And also many years ago some web site had a list of the greatest women singers and Yoko was number 9,and it said that she got John to give up his misogyny(woman-hatred!)
And thank her so much for that!
« Last Edit: December 03, 2015, 12:08:26 AM by fanofthefab4 »
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fanofthefab4

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Re: Yoko Ono
« Reply #45 on: December 02, 2015, 02:35:04 AM »

Just wanted to discuss here and what the general feeling about her amongst Beatle fans, Ive just finished reading Fred Seamans book about his time at the Dakota.......maddeningly we will never know how accurate it all is, could be 100% truth, could be 50% truth etc etc
He paints a picture of Yoko as someone who is sick and fed up with John and just wants him out of the way, she hides herself 'downstairs' in Studio 1 on the phone day & night while John has to amuse himself with Sean all day, when he tries to book even lunch with 'Mother' she keeps him waiting outside her office and then tells him to go without here, then she apparently has an affair with Sam Green after John has gone to Bermuda, John hounds her to visit him & Sean in Bermuda she eventually goes but sulks the weekend away and leaves early etc etc
Then Fred says at the end of his book that she makes the most of his death by releasing demo tapes and all sorts of John stuff, even selling his songs for TV adds in places like Japan.
Its obvious Fred didnt like her and a lot of Beatle fans still blame here for splitting up the band, sitting in on recording Let It Be, turning Johns head all the time into doing crazy stunts and eventually having some kind of power over him - keeping him in check so to speak

John obviously loved her very much and seemed to need here, she had something deep that Cynthia (or anyone else) never gave him and he wanted the world and the fans to accept her as part of him.......what are your feelings about Yoko ?


Fred Seaman? The guy who disgustingly admitted to stealing John's personal private diary and also cash and stereo equipment after John was killed as Ray Coleman ( who was an award winning music journalist and an editor of the music magazine The Melody Maker and a good friend of John's from 1962-1980) reported in his great biography of John,Lennon! Yes we should really trust and listen to what Fred says.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2015, 12:02:42 AM by fanofthefab4 »
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fanofthefab4

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Re: Yoko Ono
« Reply #46 on: December 02, 2015, 02:44:25 AM »

I have also seen may pictures and video interviews with Yoko when she was younger and she looked very attractive with no make up on and at almost 83 she looks more attractive than some young people.Scavulo who was one of the best fashion and celebrity photographers took a beautiful glamorous black and white head shot portrait of Yoko,and she has eye make up on and her hair done up fancy,it's one of her pictures on The All Music Guide in her biography.


And in this picture on her instagram page,she looks very pretty as a young woman with no make up on.
https://instagram.com/p/zAeIgqjzuH/?taken-by=yokoonoofficial


She's always been very intelligent too.I once spoke to a radio DJ who was now a manager of a CD store,and in 1983 he had gone to her apartment with another DJ who did a long interview with her and who hosted a breakfast with The Beatles show on Sundays.I asked him what she was like and he said she was a very nice lady.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2015, 12:09:05 AM by fanofthefab4 »
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tkitna

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Re: Yoko Ono
« Reply #47 on: December 03, 2015, 09:04:44 AM »

Yoko was the root of John becoming a pro-feminist which helped him to touch upon subjects like being unfaithful to his wife and yet she was the person who Cynthia found in her bed.  Sorry dude, I'm not listening to what your preaching.  She is and will always be a Barclay Hunt in my eyes.

Normandie

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Re: Yoko Ono
« Reply #48 on: December 03, 2015, 11:36:41 PM »

Yoko was the root of John becoming a pro-feminist which helped him to touch upon subjects like being unfaithful to his wife and yet she was the person who Cynthia found in her bed.  Sorry dude, I'm not listening to what your preaching. 

I'm with you, Todd.

And as for Yoko being pretty, my own reaction is: Ick. But that's a matter of personal taste.
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tkitna

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Re: Yoko Ono
« Reply #49 on: December 04, 2015, 12:33:33 AM »

Before John met Yoko,John used to be a psychologically messed up angry sexist,pig,guy,who had fist fights with men,hit women,and like Paul,George and Ringo was a terrible cheating womanizer until he met Yoko who changed him so much for the better into a feminist nurturing house husband and father!

Was this before or after she got him hooked on herion?  Maybe this was before Yoko actually set him up with May Pang.  A real man wouldn't have taken the bait, but I guess you have it all figured out anyways.

tkitna

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Re: Yoko Ono
« Reply #50 on: December 04, 2015, 12:39:09 AM »

I'm with you, Todd.

And as for Yoko being pretty, my own reaction is: Ick. But that's a matter of personal taste.

Sorry for my gross and ignorant swearing in that last post Kathleen, but I was tired and riled up after reading all of that garbage.  How anybody can defend that woman is beyond me.

Normandie

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Re: Yoko Ono
« Reply #51 on: December 04, 2015, 01:35:53 AM »

^^^^^

No need to apologize; I've heard the word before.  ;)  And I don't see how anyone can defend Yoko, either. Also, I'm not a big fan of feminists, but the topic of feminists strays too far into politics, so I'll keep my mouth shut on that part.
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In My Life

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Re: Yoko Ono
« Reply #52 on: December 04, 2015, 05:20:14 AM »

I have to cast my vote on the nay side too when it comes to Yoko. I don't feel that she was good for John at all.
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nimrod

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Re: Yoko Ono
« Reply #53 on: December 04, 2015, 05:26:08 AM »


Fred Seaman? The guy who disgustingly admitted to stealing John's personal private diary and also cash and stereo equipment after John was killed as Ray Coleman ( who was an award winning music journalist and an editor of the music magazine The Melody Maker and a good friend of John's from 1962-1980) reported in his great biography of John,Lennon! Yes we should really trust and listen to what Fred says.

Well, if you'd taken the time to read my post properly I wasnt saying that Fred was a man to be trusted, I was merely reporting on the general timbre of his book

and asking what people on here really thought about her now

we are all grown ups on here and realise that a lot of books are written to make money and probably are more than a bit fictional, maybe even award winning journalist and editor of melody maker and Johns mate Ray Coleman.
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Kevin

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Re: Yoko Ono
« Reply #54 on: December 04, 2015, 10:12:33 AM »

Sorry but I think if folk want to be p*ssed off with anyone it's John. It was he who was unfaithful to Cynthia. It was he who turned his back on his mates. It was he who started acting like a c**t.
John's whole life seems to be one of him being besotted (I'm being kind here) with individuals , whether it be St,  Brian or Yoko.  Yoko might have been a bad call, but it
was his call.
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Re: Yoko Ono
« Reply #55 on: December 04, 2015, 11:40:33 AM »

I can't hate Yoko in the same way I can't hate any of my good mates' girlfriends. I don't particularly like her as a person and I would never listen to her music, but if she made John happy, then I'm happy for him and for them. If John found in her what he was looking for his whole life, then good for them.
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nimrod

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Re: Yoko Ono
« Reply #56 on: December 04, 2015, 11:55:32 AM »

I can't hate Yoko in the same way I can't hate any of my good mates' girlfriends. I don't particularly like her as a person and I would never listen to her music, but if she made John happy, then I'm happy for him and for them. If John found in her what he was looking for his whole life, then good for them.

Yeah thats how I feel

People go on about him leaving his wife but really he did what people did in those days when the girlfriend got pregnant, he made an honest woman of her (as they used to say) he couldve turned his back on her what with his exciting career but fair do's to him he married her and tried to make it work, (which was nigh on impossible in his situation) this happened to thousands of marriages in those days when blokes 'did the right thing'
Maybe he should never had married her. He obviously didnt love her.

I can see why people hate Yoko of course, but she was the one he wanted to be married to and he was bessoted with her, I cant see that she controlled him, he wasn't a guy to be controlled
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Moogmodule

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Re: Yoko Ono
« Reply #57 on: December 04, 2015, 11:59:19 AM »

I was never impressed with Yoko. She seemed a manipulative, insecure and damaged personality. John was a screwed up man-child who seemed to need someone to guide him. He chose her. All in all they probably deserved each other.


 
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Re: Yoko Ono
« Reply #58 on: December 08, 2015, 07:37:35 PM »

I miss her sweet angelic voice!  4ac
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nimrod

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Re: Yoko Ono
« Reply #59 on: December 08, 2015, 10:06:02 PM »

I cant stand her voice but theres that track on Double Fantasy called Im Moving On, I just love that one song of hers (although I suspect John wrote it really)

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