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Author Topic: What do you think about the iraq war  (Read 2749 times)

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alexis

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Re: What do you think about the iraq war
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2007, 07:43:48 PM »

Quote from: 185

I assume the purpose was to reduce the levels of partisan violence. I agree Iraq is no nearer self government.
I'm not convinced the US Iraq to be in a position where the US can leave now, not while there's still Iran and Syria to deal with.

I see what you mean, but IMO saying it's "working" because horrific violence levels that began with the invasion are down to 2005 levels is kind of like ... well, mopping up the blood in the operating room after the patient died, and then saying "See, the floor is clean now ... the operation worked!". In both cases, there was failure to achieve the goals initially set, no amount of doublespeak can alter that.

The administration here and its apologists and Quislings are out and about in the media making similar arguments about the "success" of the "surge", because violence is "down", but it just seems like another form of lying to me. Not busting on you at all, Kevin, I suspect from your prior posts that you are the furthest thing from a supporter of this catastrophic invasion.



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harihead

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Re: What do you think about the iraq war
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2007, 10:18:12 PM »

Quote from: 568
Hi Hari - Admitting a lot of ignorance in the States about the issues in this conflict ... are you exaggerating here, or have you seen a poll that you could reference for us?

It was an actual poll, but it's been a while and I can't find it online anymore. It was appalling, like 60%, but those kind of things change depending on the news coverage. Most people don't have long memories, so they forget what they knew before and accept whatever the latest slant is.
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alexis

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Re: What do you think about the iraq war
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2007, 01:47:17 PM »

Quote from: 551

It was an actual poll, but it's been a while and I can't find it online anymore. It was appalling, like 60%, but those kind of things change depending on the news coverage. Most people don't have long memories, so they forget what they knew before and accept whatever the latest slant is.

Yes, I think the "average American" has finally begun to figure out at some level that they have been lied to and manipulated by the administration. It's not enough for these Republican/Bush supporters to admit they were wrong, but I think it may be enough to keep them home during the next election  ;D

Still not enough of a penalty for those devils in power the past 7 years to pay, but I'm comfortable at least in the belief that history will almost certainly consider this administration far and away the worst in American history. It makes Warren Harding's administration look like Lincoln's!
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Kevin

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Re: What do you think about the iraq war
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2007, 11:12:33 AM »

Quote from: 568

. Not busting on you at all, Kevin, I suspect from your prior posts that you are the furthest thing from a supporter of this catastrophic invasion.

No worries. If everyone agreed with me I'd have to find another forum.  :)
My view of the invasion depends on what hat I'm wearing. My humanist side sees it as an afront to everything that is good and decent.
But if I become the cold detached ananlysist I can see the point in the US grabbing this oppotunity (no superpower opposition) in securing it's oil supplies. To control a third of the worlds oil reserves for the cost of "only" 4000 american lives is good maths. It cost Germany and Japan millions when they tried the same thing.
I'm a history freak so try and not get too emotional about this (I don't believe in "good" and "evil.")
But a supporter - no. (though it makes great TV)
You're gonna hate me for this, but I feel the same about global warming. While I know it's abhorent and awful,  the evolution/history loving side of me is quite excited that in my lifetime I may get to see the greatest change mankind has endured since the last iceage. (I'm aware that this side of me is a little unfortunate, but I do my bit to save the world, and have words to myself about my attitude, but it's there.)

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alexis

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Re: What do you think about the iraq war
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2007, 03:53:53 PM »

Quote from: 185

No worries. If everyone agreed with me I'd have to find another forum.  :)
My view of the invasion depends on what hat I'm wearing. My humanist side sees it as an afront to everything that is good and decent.
But if I become the cold detached ananlysist I can see the point in the US grabbing this oppotunity (no superpower opposition) in securing it's oil supplies. To control a third of the worlds oil reserves for the cost of "only" 4000 american lives is good maths. It cost Germany and Japan millions when they tried the same thing.
I'm a history freak so try and not get too emotional about this (I don't believe in "good" and "evil.")
But a supporter - no. (though it makes great TV)
You're gonna hate me for this, but I feel the same about global warming. While I know it's abhorent and awful,  the evolution/history loving side of me is quite excited that in my lifetime I may get to see the greatest change mankind has endured since the last iceage. (I'm aware that this side of me is a little unfortunate, but I do my bit to save the world, and have words to myself about my attitude, but it's there.)



To help me decide if the invasion is a "strategic" success, I look at the following questions:

1) In 5 years will our "control" of this oil supply be significantly better than it would have been had we not invaded? Will we feel better about our access to that oil with Iran pulling the strings than we did with Hussein in charge? Should we have deferred invasion until such a time that our oil supply was more imminently jeopardized?

2) Is the benefit of any long-term incremental increase in "control" of the oil supply clearly worth not just the loss of 5,000+ American lives and probably 100,000s of foreign lives (not to mention magnitudes of order more in lives ruined by crippling injury), but also the worldwide disharmony that results from a war that did not have broad global support?

Guess what I think the answers are!

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Kevin

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Re: What do you think about the iraq war
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2007, 04:08:35 PM »

No and no? (and if I had to put my money on it I'd agree)
C'mon China. The world needs someone to balance the books.
What gets me is that I was so full of hope when the Berlin Wall came down. The Cold War was won, progressives were  in control of the west, democratic captilism seemed the only way the world could go....and look where we've ended up.
Can it be true that we actually need (maybe as a species require) conflict?
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harihead

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Re: What do you think about the iraq war
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2007, 08:40:41 PM »

We do not need conflict and I will argue to the death with you over that!!!

...wait...
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Kevin

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Re: What do you think about the iraq war
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2007, 09:22:30 AM »

Quote from: 551
We do not need conflict and I will argue to the death with you over that!!!

...wait...

 :)
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WaMoZ

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Re: What do you think about the iraq war
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2008, 12:03:52 PM »

I think this thread would be better titled "How do you think World War 3 is progressing?", because that's really what's been unfolding since 911 and the Dubya Shrub administration's catastrophic mismanagement of the aftermath. I think the invasion of Afghanistan was the right response to 911, but going into Iraq was a mad idea. Of course, the incompetent DS administration was bent on kicking out Saddam from the start, because of its fixation with controling oil supply. So any excuse was enough. Then we had the DS actually mentioning the word "crusade", at which point he and his whole lame-assed mob should have been kicked out of the White House, and replaced with people who could possibly repudate what was in effect a declaration of war on the whole Muslim religion. The basic problem is that it is simply impossible to wage and win this kind of war with conventional military means in the long term. From the get-go the best response would have been to examine the issues behind terrorism, and devise a strategy to "drain the swamp". I'm no expert, but to me a good start would have been to fix the intelligence failure which led to 911, and to strengthen ties to the Middle East by talking to moderate governments and NGOs. I can't see how the current situation will improve within many years. Pakistan and Afghanistan are in a hopeless mess, Iraq continues to suck up valuable resources, Syria and Iran are enjoying a free ride, and US support of Israel against the Palestinians is a still festering grievance stoking Muslim hatreds. I just hope the next US administration can find a way forward, because there is no end in sight for WWIII.
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