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Author Topic: Kosovo Independence  (Read 1637 times)

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somedude210

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Kosovo Independence
« on: February 18, 2008, 01:51:54 AM »

I was reading fark.com (news site) and over the past two days, stories have popped up about Kosovo declaring its independence. I didnt even realize this was an issue. How long have they been thinking this?

will this turn into a repeat of the late 90s in bosnia?

any thoughts on this?
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Kevin

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Re: Kosovo Independence
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2008, 09:40:01 AM »

It's been in the news for 10 years now. Serbia, the main loser, can't do much about it. Maybe sponsor some "nationlistic activities" by ethnic Serbs. The Russians are p*ssed off, and could cause mischief by recognising places like a Kurdish homeland in Turkey.
Anyway, Serbian support for a nationlist movement with Russian backing hasn't kicked off a world war for nearly a hundred years, so nothing to worry about there.
All this has been achieved with US backing. Washington - the friends of successionists everywhere. Where are you now Abe?  :)
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Bill Harry

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Re: Kosovo Independence
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2008, 10:40:17 AM »

Here are two letters from yesterday's Daily Mail:

British foreign policy on Serbia has been a catalogue of deception. The Government was neither prepared nor honest enough to question how much was really fulfilled of UN Resolution 1244 concerning the Serbian province of Kosovo and Methohija.

It set out to achieve the terms of that resolution, but then went for 'standards before status', and now all is forgotten and no one talks of Resolution 1244, whose fulfillment had been a pre-condition for the final status of Kosovo.

No wonder the Serbs feel cheated.

In the past eight years, 7,743 acts of violence have been committed on minorities in Kosovo, mainly on the Serbs. In these 1,248 non-Albanians have been killed, with many more kidnapped, now presumed dead. Most of these crimes have not been resolved or the perpetrators brought to justice.

Of 158,000 Serbs officially recognised by UN bodies as 'ethnically cleansed', fewer than 5,800 have returned to their homes in Kosovo.

There are no-go areas in some parts of Kosovo. Serbs are living in ghettos: 151 spiritual and cultural monuments in Kosovo have been destroyed by Albanians and 213 mosques built with money from Saudi Arabia. Eighty per cent of graveyards have been destroyed or desecrated, with no response from the international community.

The Albanians have turned Christian graveyards into car parks, playgrounds and rubbish dumps. Anything relating to Serbia or Christianity - libraries, public records, books, names of places and even towns - have been wiped out whenever possible.

On this basis, can Serbs in the province be expected to believe they will be treated in any fair way under the new plans for a 'supervised independence' of Kosovo?

The other letter reads:

The UN is dismembering a part of Serbia and making it independent against the wishes of the vast majority of people in Serbia.
The UN justifies this by saying that most people in the Serbian province of Kosovo are Muslim and that they should be made independent so that they can 'preserve their culture'. This is political correctness gone mad.

The Serbs were our staunch allies in World War 2 and fought bravely on our side with many sacrifices, and the issue of whether Kosovo should be given independence should be based on a national referendum in which everyone in Serbia can vote in a secret ballot. That would be democratic.

The UN has no right to force any country to give up a large part of its sovereign territory. creating a new Muslim nation in the heart of Europe will sow the seeds for yet more strife and terroristm in the future.

There you have it, opinions from British people - although the British Government never takes notice of what its citizens think these days. China, Russian, India, other EU countries will not recognise Kosovo, but the British Government rushes in quickly to recognise it, because in a country with an increasing Muslim community, the British government is walking on eggs not to upset its Muslim citizens, which is why many Christian symbols in Britain are now being banned - crosses taken down from crematoriums, all reference to Christmas being taken from Red Cross charity shops, Christmas hymn services banned from many places, the  childrens story of 'The Three Little Pigs' being vetoed in case it offends Muslims, and even the Anglican archbishop advocating that Sharia Law should be introduced to parts of Brtiain!.
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Kevin

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Re: Kosovo Independence
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2008, 10:27:23 AM »

Hi Bill. While I agree that the whole thing has been very badly handled I'd take issue with some of the things raised.
I'm not sure that allowing all of Serbia to decide Kosovo's fate via a referendum is kosher. Would Britain accept a Spanish vote on Gibralta? How about all of Ethiopia deciding the fate of Eritrea, should all of Britain vote  in a referendum that concerned Northern Island or Scotland? Canada for Quebec? How about a pan Irish vote in 1921 on the fate of the Ulster provinces? No nation would ever win its independence if this was the decision making process.
I don't like the listing of Kosovian atrocities - no mention of the grudges held by Kosovo against Serbia (anyone remember ethnic cleansing). I'm not saying they don't occur, but I wouldn't accept such a one sided arguement. And to reduce it to an anti muslim thing....?
And to be fair to the old Archbishop, he didn't advocate Sharia law, he said it was inevitable. Not quite the same thing, and certainly didn't deserve all the hysteria it's misreporting aroused.
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alexis

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Re: Kosovo Independence
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2008, 03:03:16 AM »

Quote from: 1062
Here are two letters from yesterday's Daily Mail:...There you have it, opinions from British people - although the British Government never takes notice of what its citizens think these days. China, Russian, India, other EU countries will not recognise Kosovo, but the British Government rushes in quickly to recognise it, because in a country with an increasing Muslim community, the British government is walking on eggs not to upset its Muslim citizens, which is why many Christian symbols in Britain are now being banned - crosses taken down from crematoriums, all reference to Christmas being taken from Red Cross charity shops, Christmas hymn services banned from many places, the  childrens story of 'The Three Little Pigs' being vetoed in case it offends Muslims, and even the Anglican archbishop advocating that Sharia Law should be introduced to parts of Brtiain!.

How many of these things are hyperbole/exaggeration vs actually true? And if actually true, how are the MPs or Lords (forgive my ignorance) getting reelected if they sit in Parliament passing laws like these? Don't the "ordinary British folk" take umbrage to laws/regulations like those listed?
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Re: Kosovo Independence
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2008, 02:20:30 PM »

Quote from: 568

How many of these things are hyperbole/exaggeration vs actually true? And if actually true, how are the MPs or Lords (forgive my ignorance) getting reelected if they sit in Parliament passing laws like these? Don't the "ordinary British folk" take umbrage to laws/regulations like those listed?

None of these things, if they exist, come from central government, or muslims. They tend to come from middleclass, white, left wing, unfortunately mostly female, local councillors. The sort who banned competition in school sports because it wasn't fair on the loosers and who refuse to allow parents to film their kids christmas plays because they're all potential paedophiles. A pox on them. They p*ss most ordinary folk off, but most ordinary folk don't vote in local elections. Only middle class, white, left w.....
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alexis

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Re: Kosovo Independence
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2008, 04:34:15 PM »

Quote from: 568

How many of these things are hyperbole/exaggeration vs actually true? And if actually true, how are the MPs or Lords (forgive my ignorance) getting reelected if they sit in Parliament passing laws like these? Don't the "ordinary British folk" take umbrage to laws/regulations like those listed?

Quote from: 185

None of these things, if they exist, come from central government, or muslims. They tend to come from middleclass, white, left wing, unfortunately mostly female, local councillors. The sort who banned competition in school sports because it wasn't fair on the loosers and who refuse to allow parents to film their kids christmas plays because they're all potential paedophiles. A pox on them. They p*ss most ordinary folk off, but most ordinary folk don't vote in local elections. Only middle class, white, left w.....

No grass-roots organizings and uprisings to "take our country back"?

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nousha

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Re: Kosovo Independence
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2008, 12:16:46 AM »

There are always two sides of the story. Kosovars suffered from atrocities during the war, Serbians suffered too. It's all in the way others present the facts. Politicians, journalists, whoever. Manipulating people who live thousands of miles away from the hot zones is easy. It's easy even to do the same for people who live only miles away...
Kosovo is and has always been a problem, it's neither simple nor innocent. We, the Balkans, have always been the crosspoint of cultures and religions, and, more important, of interests, a thing that has ruined my country for 5 centuries and then for 45 years and it seems to me that it continues now. You don't even realise how strong nationalistic thoughts are here - because of many reasons, one of the most important - it helps surviving. The dream of "Great Serbia", "Great Greece", "Great Bulgaria" (although our politicians always worked against it) makes the problem here. We, as well as the Greeks, still are determined, that Mecedonia, for instance, is part of our homeland and that's it. People here are poor and tired of being used from big world powers and thus they can be easily manipulated. Serbians regard Kosovo as a piece of their heart that is going to be torn apart. Kosovars, on the other hand, want to be free and indipendant (that dream of all the small nations. What's going on in the world today - while Europe is trying to unite, small countries in the very inside of it are struggling for independance?)
And I dont' know what's going to happen but I don't like the feeling in the air. Bulgaria was the first country in the world to recognize Macedonia because we're loosers, even though we think of it as of a part of Bulgaria, our politicians recognised it independance. Bur Serbians, who sometimes are very alike Bulgarians, can be totally different. They are not happy at all and I don't mean politicians - the ordinary people are revolting and I'm afraid tension ca rise more. It's always been a conflict zone. Conflict between muslims and christians, Serbians supported by Russia and muslims by USA, between convergence and divergence, people who don't understand other's way of living try to impose to the world their own point of viwe regardless of the common sense... We have a muslim (Turkish) minority in our country and slowly one of the most powerful political party became theirs, we just didn't see how it happened, and it's modifying the country's politics and this is going to reflect on the attitude of Bulgaria towards Kosovo and we, being a neighbouring country, member of EU... I don't know what's going to happen, but I don't see anything good. War maybe not, bur misery - for sure.
Sometimes I feel desperate   :-/
Sorry for that post, I'm not giving any facts but I think it's important to know how people feel about it, because the human factor is not to be underestimated.
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alexis

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Re: Kosovo Independence
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2008, 03:05:56 PM »

Nousha, thank you for the informative and heartfelt post, and if it is of any help, there are millions of people that are praying for peace in your region.
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Re: Kosovo Independence
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2008, 03:23:26 PM »

Thanks for your real perspective Nousha. My humble thoughts are with you. Many countries take their stability for granted. Much respect & hope. x  :B
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Kevin

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Re: Kosovo Independence
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2008, 04:21:17 PM »

Quote from: 15
Thanks for your real perspective Nousha. My humble thoughts are with you. Many countries take their stability for granted. Much respect & hope. x  :B

Agreed. and also a very levelled headed analysis from someone so close to the consequences. All the best.
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nousha

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Re: Kosovo Independence
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2008, 09:43:44 PM »

Thank you a lot :)

I'll try to give some facts today - Bulgaria, Croatia and Hungary made a joint statement and will recognize Kosovo. First neighbouring countries to do this. It will be voted tomorrow in our Parliament, I think. 100 intelectuals signed an open letter to express their indignation. Most politicians said they agree.
Consequences: I wanted to go for a Nick Cave concert in Belgrade in June. In the morning a friend of mine send me a message - "See the news. End of our plans for Belgrade." We wont go there - we are afraid, we're going to have problems there. Serbian embassador in Bulgaria said that every country that recognizes Kosovo could not expect good relationships with Serbia. And Serbian people will not be very happy to see Bulgarians in their country although only the politics took the decision. Once again, like during the war, we are going to avoid entering Serbia. I can't believe this is happening.

I talked to a friend in Greece. He says Albania is claiming part of Macedonia now, by the same reasons that made Kosovo independent. A part ot Romania wants to split because ot ethnic reasons. I and the Greek friend of mine we think of Thrace - a common area of the two countries and Turkey, where there are a lot of Muslims.
I'd like to add that never in the past neither Macedonia, nor Thrace have been part of anything else than Bulgaria and Greece (we still argue about theese lands ;) but a Bulgarian proverb says: When two are in a fight for something, it's the third one who wins.
With the precedent of Kosovo it becomes easier for such territories to split.
My friend said "Our only hope is Russia". Ironically, because after communist regime a lot of people here don't love the country, although it helped us and Greece to fight the Turkish empire in order to regain our freedom (after 500 years of yoke) and then in the 40s to fight the Nazis.
Serbians too rely on Russia.

Reporting from the Balkans, your newswoman ;) Nousha   (beammeup)
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